287: Aaron Swanlund, Michael McGinnis, and Kaylor Reiter join Pastor Plek this week for a conversation exploring the heart of faith and same-sex attraction. They delve into the intricate tapestry of family dynamics, exploring how the revelation of same-sex attraction unfolds within the complex web of relationships. The episode paints a vivid portrait of vulnerability, acceptance, and the often underappreciated strength of single parents. Furthermore, they reveal the transformative journey from internal conflict to self-realization and understanding, all while fostering a deepened relationship with God that reshapes personal identity.
Got questions? Text us at 737-231-0605!
Like, share, and subscribe! We love seeing and responding to your reviews and comments.
Support the show: https://wbcc.churchcenter.com/giving
287: Aaron Swanlund, Michael McGinnis, and Kaylor Reiter join Pastor Plek this week for a conversation exploring the heart of faith and same-sex attraction. They delve into the intricate tapestry of family dynamics, exploring how the revelation of same-sex attraction unfolds within the complex web of relationships. The episode paints a vivid portrait of vulnerability, acceptance, and the often underappreciated strength of single parents. Furthermore, they reveal the transformative journey from internal conflict to self-realization and understanding, all while fostering a deepened relationship with God that reshapes personal identity.
Got questions? Text us at 737-231-0605!
Like, share, and subscribe! We love seeing and responding to your reviews and comments.
Support the show: https://wbcc.churchcenter.com/giving
And welcome back to Pastor Plex podcast. I am your host, pastor Plex, and I am so glad all of you are joining us. From podcast land and with me in studio today as we're recording live here in Austin, texas, is none other than Michael McGinnis from Space of Grace Counseling. Welcome, michael, thank you. Yeah, it's awesome to have you. Michael does a lot of work with us here at Wells Ranch Community Church, and so we're super grateful for his involvement as a biblical counselor, so we're pretty pumped about that. And then, also in studio, here is Kayla Ritter. How are you doing, buddy?
Speaker 1:Rider rider, sorry rider, kayla rider is with us and, kayla, you've been on our show before. Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 4:And you were in our youth group. Many, many, many many moons ago.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, so like was this like 12 years ago? Yeah, or something crazy. So, kayla, I'm so glad you're here to tell us about all of your life and experience, and then Aaron Swalton way to go Up for Deacon. So by the time this podcast release, hopefully you will be an affirmed as a deacon of compassion at our church. If not, it'll be really embarrassing when it comes out. So that would be awkward, but I'm pretty confident that no one will vote against you. So welcome guys.
Speaker 1:And the kind of the conversation I wanted to have this afternoon was really revolving around who you guys are as followers of Jesus who have same-sex attraction. I brought Michael in because he is a biblical counselor and he has really, as one who has been dealing with sex addictions and different facets and formats, I really wanted you to be able to speak into some of the things that we're going to be talking about from a biblical perspective and really kind of speak into their lives. So I'm not going to say you're going to get counseled today, but it could happen, and so just forewarned is forearmed, you can run away right now if you want.
Speaker 4:Don't count on it. It's a free counseling session we don't offer you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you're getting a great discount. So I want to talk about just start with you, aaron background, when you kind of realized that you had a same-sex attraction, and then how that you've been battling that with the power of Jesus and what that's looked like. Give me this in the two-minute recap version.
Speaker 4:Okay, yeah, so I'm originally from Illinois and I would say, probably around maybe fifth grade or so, probably when I first started going into puberty, that I noticed that something was different and I had this attraction, not super intense, but just noticing there's just something different about how I'm interacting, and as I'm getting a little bit older, I kind of see myself having that attraction to guys, and so I came to faith in eighth grade, and so it was a few years after that, but definitely this is something that I've struggled with since, kind of like 10, 11, 12 years old, and but I've never lived a gay lifestyle in terms of actually doing, you know, having like relationships or having sex at all.
Speaker 1:And so, jesus, so you've been celibate your whole life, right, yes, and like, even for you, on, like talking about, like gay porn you've never been like. I'm going to go to the gay porn website.
Speaker 4:Right, I mean, it's something that you know in the past. Like you know, I've never like not watched porn before, but it's not like an ongoing struggle today, so right.
Speaker 1:Okay, so for you like, growing up you had both parents. Like you're on a farm right, I did.
Speaker 4:I mean, we moved out into a farm when I was in high school from the city. So, yes, so yeah, you're on.
Speaker 1:I mean, this is like Chicago Illinois. This is like middle of nowhere Illinois, where good Midwestern work ethic and all of that, and you're like hey, I was like. Hey I was like hey, that doesn't be like.
Speaker 1:Hey, so, so talk to me about that was how isolating that must have been. But then parents like because one of the things that we talked about is like the, the, the narrative that we're we sort of like think of and maybe you can speak into this a little bit, michael is that you are not being gay, is something that's a product of your environment, of not having a dad or some sort of trauma in your past. Is that we kind of talked about?
Speaker 2:that. Yeah, I think generally that would be the, the narrative and there's research that supports that and, as I said earlier before we got on air, there's there's other mitigating factors that would would be determinative or cause it that would cause someone to actually have this inclination or attraction to you know any person. So that's something I'm kind of curious about with Aaron too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so for you, father was involved and around and all that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean I had a good relationship with my dad growing up. Like my parents started having issues, like my parents are divorced and so like they started having issues, probably like right around that time that like I started middle school.
Speaker 1:So fifth, sixth grade.
Speaker 4:Right, and so you know that that had an effect. I don't I don't know if it really influenced that attraction or not and that struggle in particular, but I mean my dad is incredibly hardworking and but probably we don't have like the strongest relationship, but it definitely, and even today, like I think that there was a you know, there's kind of a distance, like we're not super close but not like super, like you know nothing, like you know you're not enemies.
Speaker 1:I always with my dad, I always call it. It's like my uncle dad, you know, it's like it's someone you're really close to, but he's not asking you about like hey, tell me about your love life. Or hey, tell me about like, how's it going, what are you struggling with, what are you feeling or how can I? You know, it's not like that. It's more like you know you talk about sport, or at least my dad and I, we would talk about sports or something that had no emotional value. Right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, sort of it. For you it was and like this is, I don't think I ever had a conversation with my parents about like sexual stuff, and so it just wasn't anything that like ever they sort of initiated with me or I brought up to them and so like I had this, this struggle and this you know inner thing that was happening to me, but it's not something that I really came to them about and even to this day, like I have not ever like specifically addressed, like where I stand on this.
Speaker 1:So you don't want me to text this podcast.
Speaker 4:Well, maybe I'll just I'll send them the link to this and just, you know, be like hey, here we go, here we go.
Speaker 1:We don't have any questions. Have a nice day, okay.
Speaker 4:But yeah, so it's still something that, but it's. It's different now because, as a as a follower of Christ, it's like I am repentant of this and like I struggle with this. I don't, I don't see this as something that, like I'm not pursuing this as something I as I want, that I want, so you know, and I've, I've really seen you as if I could think of somebody who would be a great priest.
Speaker 1:I think of you like you are the most servant-hearted. You'll do anything for anybody. You'll bring any random person to a small group. You'll go pick people up, bring them to church. You will go and minister to whoever walks in our doors here, and it's you know, it's quite a an eclectic group, and so I feel like God has gifted you in that way and I'm I don't know if this is like coming to the head of a question, but is that? Is there anything like you understand, like the suffering of isolation or what? What do you think is in you that God is bringing out in your giftedness that allows you to serve with just an others focus?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think it's just like, over time, as I've, as I've grown in my walk, like I that that care and that want to see people come to know Christ and just wanting to extend that, and I think that that's been so huge in my life over the past few years. It's just getting to a point where that really is like my focus and just wanting to take advantage of those opportunities and especially as a, as a single person and just, you know, recognizing that that really is the most important thing to me is is is just sewing into others the love of Christ and growing in my own walk, and that it's not. It's not about, you know, this sexual thing and the struggle with the same sex attraction. It's, it's a thing, but it's not like the biggest and most important thing in my life. You know it's a struggle, but but God is so much greater and and the work that he has for me and and what he's doing in my life, like just allowing that to be the focus and allowing that to be magnified over other things.
Speaker 1:So a lot of people like whenever they're at this spot and this is where I love for Michael to jump in here but whenever you're at this spot, there's a tendency to do the woe is me. I haven't ever seen that from me. Like literally never. Like I, I wouldn't. I mean, if you go there, you mask it really well and maybe you're faking it your whole life and I don't know that. But like, and maybe you could speak into this as Michael, it seems to me that you have joy and so and I think that's obviously one of the reasons why the elders have nominated you to be a deacon is you are showing all of these traits of someone who is genuinely in Christ and loving Jesus and talk about like how a lot of people mask that.
Speaker 2:Well, I would say one of the main things that people may mask that is they don't really talk about it and there are certain details a lot of times that people are ashamed of. But when we don't talk about things that we feel most shamed about, it kind of keeps us in that position of stuckness. It keeps us in that position where we're not able to really come out truly authentic because we're afraid that whatever thing that we're struggling with, if we give details about why that was a struggle for us, then maybe we'll be seen a certain way. So we tend to shrink back from that. But it sounds like for you, aaron. And one thing I was curious about, if you don't mind, I was gonna have a question and I think our listening audience would probably would benefit this. Something you said earlier was there was something about kind of the boys that was kind of different. Can you talk a little bit about what was it about some of the boys that gave you that initial attraction? Was there a certain A?
Speaker 1:curiosity or something About that kind of.
Speaker 2:Does that make sense? I?
Speaker 4:mean that's a good question and I don't know. I think it's just like I didn't have an attraction to girls and it's just like having those conversations and you get to a point where you start kind of wanting that and wanting to spend time with the opposite sex and et cetera, et cetera, and I just feel like I didn't have that but it's like. But I felt that way towards like the other guys that I was around and like students and that I was in class with and so but I don't know exactly like what it was, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and one other thing I was gonna share about that. I think sometime we have to actually define what's attraction, because oh, that's good, this definition, I would say this definition of attraction is almost like kind of a flavor or a type A. You know, what do you kind of prefer? And I think sometime it's even important in digging into what is our type as far as the type of people you like to hang out with. What's a personality type, what's a character trait? You know, what's a type of individual that we're really drawn to? And one of the things that we talked about in the backroom is, you know, in our culture today, particularly with young people, especially as we're growing up and we're trying to figure ourselves out and we're entering into puberty, we can tend to sexualize relationships when we really should just be in the moment enjoying people, you know, noticing characteristics that we feel like man, that is so awesome. I really love this about that person. Nothing sexual about that, it's like man, that's-.
Speaker 1:So, you think it's something we haven't fully understood to enjoy one another? We've yeah, it's kind of like either, like there may be a corrupted version of friendship that you don't know what to do with, and so you take it sexual, because what else is there?
Speaker 4:Or yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, that's interesting. Yeah, so for you, aaron. Then when did so? When? When did you? Why did you feel so, like at Wells Ranch Church, like I think it was about three years ago, when I think you I don't know if came out's right or way to put that, but you came out and shared it with your community group. Yeah, what gave you that confidence? And, yeah, what gave you that really? First off, what gave you that confidence and why did you not keep that to yourself? What was going on in your soul?
Speaker 4:Yeah well, yeah, so in our community group at the time, we were giving testimonies and like being a part of that group and just being a part of the church here, like I knew that holding back on sharing this was hurting my relationships, and because it was this barrier that was like keeping me from really just being able to be real and honest, and so I just, I just I definitely had a conviction from the Holy Spirit that like I've got to share this and like I need to let others know like I struggle with this, because like this is going to be such a relief for me and such a blessing to me to just open this up and open up the door to discussing this and just sharing it and not feeling like I have to hide something, but that I can be open and vulnerable with it.
Speaker 4:And so it was just definitely something that I it was a Holy Spirit thing of just like I've got to do this, I've got to share this and there's no reason not to. I'm in a trusted community of believers that I know, you know, would have my back and would not judge me or, you know, do anything negative against me because of this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's wild and yet not like, oh, don't worry about it, being gay is okay. I think there's that piece of like you almost, like in wanting to be comforting people, can affirm and that's not what happened. It was very much like oh, I'm so glad you shared with what you're struggling with. Let me pray for you. I'm gonna walk with you alongside Huge Kayla. I'm gonna shift to you because this is where, like you had a different background upbringing, and so talk to us about you know, growing up. Really, you know, like I said, you were in our youth ministry for a while. Talk to me about, like, the way you grew up at single parent home. Yeah, talk to me about you. You know good old Angie, love Angie. And talk to me about the when your parents broke it off and like kind of the process for you.
Speaker 3:Okay. So yeah, my mom raised my brother and I. So when my mom was pregnant with my brother and I was one years old, my dad kind of fell off the deep end and she didn't want us, cause she was thinking about us and she didn't want us to be in that environment that my dad chose to to go into. And I mean for me, I try to well, I mean try, I'm my mother's son.
Speaker 3:We're two peas in a pod. But it's like I always share, show that love to her because, like her strength to raise two black kids and she's a white woman in Texas, you know, it's like people are looking at her weird sometimes or it's like because of how we act out in public, they kind of judge her parenting skills as like y'all don't know what she's gone through and I'm going to be completely honest. I don't like to talk about myself usually cause I feel like, oh, I don't want to come out like conceded, but it's like I'm extremely grateful for the strength that she had to raise us two kids because, like me and my brother, yeah, we weren't given everything you know, which I'm very grateful for, cause we now know the value of money and working hard for the things that you have.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 3:I just show that humility towards people and I advocate so heavily on single parenthood because I saw my mom go through it Like I knew I was a child, I was an adolescent, but when I hit middle school and high school it was like I saw. Looking back is like, wow, you put me and my brother first, above anything else, you know, and so this is like it's just absolutely crazy.
Speaker 1:So I don't want this to be like a negative on your mom, cause I don't think it is, but do you think you overly identified with your mom? That's the part where I don't. I don't want to put like I'm now in psychological terms that I probably shouldn't be in, but not my world. But do you think there's a part where you over identify with your mom? Kind of like dad's the enemy. Identify with mom.
Speaker 3:Actually, so, funny enough, my mom never once told me and my brother that my dad was a bad man. Oh wow, you know his actions were his actions, right. You know she genuinely, authentically wanted a relationship between my dad and his kids. That is all she wanted from him, you know. But his life kind of limited him on that, so he wasn't in the picture all that much, and so I absolutely identify more with my mom because she raised us and there's nothing wrong, cause I'm emotional.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you definitely have you're. Yeah, it's interesting, cause when I think of Aaron, he is the quintessential midwestern guy with monotones, your emotion, so like you don't know anything he's feeling. From looking at him he's just like happy or just, you know, bright and smiling and sweet, but with you it's like you're up, you're down, we see it all. It's like the more flamboyant, like sort of style. So talk to me about like your brother is not like that.
Speaker 3:No, yes, definitely not.
Speaker 1:So like what do you think how, being raised in the same home, how did you guys turn out so different? I mean, what was your thought on that?
Speaker 3:I don't know. I just feel like for me it's like I've always been that outgoing person. It's like I've always loved making friends, doing everything in high school, whereas my brother was more of an introvert, you know, and so it's like we kind of had to make him do things to get out of the house. But you know, looking back at it now, it's like I even had a conversation with him lately. It was like I genuinely apologize if I made you feel like you were in my shadow in high school Because.
Speaker 3:I did soccer outside of school, I did tennis in school, I was in art, I was in yearbook, so I did a lot of things in high school and I went to college for the first time in the family.
Speaker 3:So it was like I felt like I was just doing the norm, but it's like looking back and like coming to Christ. I was like man, this has been weighing on me heavily. It was like, chase, did you ever feel like you were in my shadow in high school? And he said yeah, and I was like I am so sorry, you know. It was like I never once intended for you to actually like feel like you were less than me. It was like because me and him are so close, we did everything together, so I never knew that.
Speaker 3:he felt that until now and I'm like uh and weird enough is he's like. I kind of missed it, though I'm like what?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's funny.
Speaker 3:No, let's not go there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, so with you and same sex attraction, like it wasn't like. You were like ah, you were affirmed in that pretty much all the way through all family. Everyone was like go for it. And then you actually got engaged to a dude, so let me.
Speaker 2:let me ask a question before that. So so, kaler, when was your first experience with a male? And what can you just talk about? About what happened, what transpired, what's? This is the good old you were, and what was that encounter like? I mean, it's a good question, yeah.
Speaker 3:So my first encounter with a man was, I believe, sophomore year of high school and we actually started talking as like we were originally friends because like we were in the same friend group and so we would always meet early in the morning before school started, and then I mean we've had classes together, and then I guess it's just the idea, because for me, as I look at it now, is like man, I kind of wish my dad was in the picture, because like I was leaning so heavily on my mom, which was like she doesn't know anything about male parts, I mean, like she's a woman, you know, so she could only do the best as she could.
Speaker 3:And so I felt like it was different, because this person gave me that like attention, you know, and it's like, oh, this is nice, you know, but I wasn't really like, oh, I'm going to pursue a relationship. Because I was like, oh, I like the attention this person's given me, but I didn't really know, kind of like, how to date a guy. So, like this person obviously knew more about it and so he pursued me and so I guess because like, oh sure, why not, you know?
Speaker 4:so was this a like a classmate, or was this like a actual like man?
Speaker 3:Like let's not say man.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I was just kidding.
Speaker 3:No, I'm just gonna say I know what you mean. But yeah, I know he was a classmate of mine, so we were in sophomore year together. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that. So that experience kind of like just I guess fueled the fire right Of like your identity more with your mom.
Speaker 4:I hear somebody's pursuing me. This, I guess, is how I am.
Speaker 1:And so and it wasn't like any family, or really anybody for that matter, was going like, hey, this isn't what is wrong. You had no father figure stepping in. And you know your mom's doing the best she can with two boys and she's just trying to. She wants you to be happy, and you know all that. And so you, you go down that path to a point at which you go to college, you graduate and in the midst of that whole time, you get engaged to a dude. And I remember seeing that, because I think we had a moment where, you know, you posted something on social media. James Foster saw you, you met, you gave your life to Christ, you got baptized and then, next thing, you know you're, you get engaged to a guy and I'm like you know, like this is where we're, like, oh, no right, this is. I was like what happened, but God did something that was probably like beyond like the confrontation of me or anyone else. Like talk about how God spoke to you. Holy Spirit spoke to you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because, like I, because the other person was a Christian. So I was like, okay, it's like we, like we have Christ as our center, you know. So I was like, okay, cool, you know, this is great. I could still be me because I was still living for the world or for the living, for the flesh and so, but I was like I still like I love God. So I was like, okay, cool, this is all like compromise, I guess.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And I'm like man, I'm so glad I love this. But yeah, I was like my ex-partner. He was going away for about two weeks and I've been going to sleep and waking up with a huge like nauseous feeling and I don't usually have this Right and I'm like what is going on? I don't? I like I try to make myself puke, but I don't puke, and so I was like what is happening? So I talked to my mom about it and she's like I don't know.
Speaker 3:I was like okay, I was like I'll figure out, but actually so God came to me in a dream, like he gave me a dream, in a sense that. So he gave me two lives where it's like, okay, I was living with my partner, we're married, have the life that I truly wanted.
Speaker 1:This is in the dream, yes, in the dream.
Speaker 3:But I was further away in my faith and then life without my partner, but closer to God, and so it. I was so confused, so it's just like, oh, I was like God loves me, for me and it's like, so I think you should be okay. But I was just really talking to my mom about it for the during the time that my partner was away and I was like I don't even know what to do Because it's like I'm being like I felt like I was being not forced, but it's like I felt that feeling of like I had to choose. I'm like, oh, man, I don't like that, you know, cause it's just like hug. But you know, at the end of the day, I was like I chose faith over my relationship Because like, yes, I love my partner, but I love God more. I know he offers me so much more. And it was extremely hard because, like I've never broken someone's heart before.
Speaker 2:And I was like man.
Speaker 3:this sucks, you know, but I felt that weight lifted off my shoulders after it was done because, like I felt like, okay, I listened to what God is telling me. You know, even in the scripture is like the Old Testament is like not really to live by the law of Moses, cause Jesus fulfilled it and changed the law. But it's like I felt like man, I'm not late with man. That's pretty literal, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think I think let me help you on that because, remember, jesus doesn't change the law, he fulfills the law.
Speaker 4:So so there's three parts to the law.
Speaker 1:And it's important to know cause it's distinguished.
Speaker 1:Because, the remember the sexual morality part. Remember whenever in the New Testament they say like what, what laws should we place on the Gentiles? They go back to moral law by like don't drink blood Okay, well, that was one of them, but the other one was sexual and morality. And so what they were saying is like the sexual immorality Old Testament standard has not changed, just like don't murder hasn't changed. And so so Jesus came to fulfill the ceremonial law so that he could forgive our failure on the moral law, so that we'd be empowered to live under whatever civil law we find ourselves in. And I think that is a huge.
Speaker 1:I think what happens with a lot of people from the LGBTQIA plus camp is they would say you guys are picking and choosing your laws. How convenient You're not. You're going to wear a polyester and say that that is completely okay, but but you are going to say that being having a homosexual relationship in a monogamous relationship, that is, you know, consensual and loving all that. That's wrong, and I would say absolutely, because you're talking about two different laws. One was a ceremonial law which was put in place to keep Israel distinct from the rest of the world high barrier of entry to be a Israelite, like circumcision and taking on a whole bunch of assimilating of ceremonial law, and then which, then Jesus, wanting to you know, he says now that season is done, the life is now found in Jesus, he is now.
Speaker 1:Our belief in him fulfills all the ceremonial law that he took on for us. So I think that's a huge aspect. That is is sort of wild to think about, and whenever people bring that up, I think we are. We don't have an argument because we're like, oh, you're right, we don't wear polyester. I guess being gay is okay, and I think that's the struggle that we have and I want to just really emphasize that that way of thinking is not congruent with God's word. So anyway, I know that's like a intersection here, but it's, but it's an important enough that I think that it that it helps us understand we're not just picking and choosing laws from the Bible to suit our own needs out of convenience, but rather we're, you know we don't. It is okay to wear polyester because Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law there.
Speaker 1:So let's get. Let's get into. Then. What is God calling you to now? Because clearly you are on the road towards ministry, which you know, if from somebody that's from the LGBTQIA plus like camp, they would say you have joined the enemy. You are, and have you experienced any of that Like sort of backlash, like it's all about? You should follow your heart until your heart follows Jesus. I think that's kind of what I've seen.
Speaker 3:Oh, sorry about the eye roll guys. I'm honestly I've kind of like tired of hearing follow your heart, because it's like I take it personally as like, because I followed my heart, I was separated by God, you know. So it's like my heart's desires was not God's desires because I was engaged to a man, you know, and so I felt like, okay, I got so that that's great.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry, guys, but yeah. So I recently started a school after two years of graduating from my undergrad and I'm actually at Liberty University online Yep, nice. And so they had a program for social work, because originally I was going to go to Virginia Commonwealth University for my master's in social work because that's what I got my undergrad in. And I got in, which was great, and I felt like I was being pulled somewhere else. And Liberty University actually sent me an email stating that I was like hey, we'll cover your technology fee and book fees for the first semester. I was like, oh, this has to be a prank or a scam. So I call them up and I talk to several admissions counselors. And it was legit. I was like, and I saw my financial bill, I was like, oh, it's true. And so I was thinking about doing like masters and counseling, because I always loved listening, and I was like, oh, biblical count.
Speaker 1:I was like yes.
Speaker 3:And so I dug a little deeper, really sat in silence more. So I was thinking, what do I want to do? And so Christian ministry came up. I was like hm, and so I dove into it, done more research on it and talked to a couple of the professors and, yeah, I was like I want to do this. And so I started the classes and it was good. It was really. I just found it so beautiful because the professors were so much different than my undergrad professors. The writing style I've never done Chicago writing style, so it's like it's weird.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the big leagues, but no, it's all this stuff.
Speaker 3:I'm like man crazy, but it's like so. In the same breath the professor would hold me accountable to my mistakes, but in the same breath they would be like you did a great start of the paper. Here's some good, positive feedbacks of what I loved about your paper, and so for me I was like, yeah, tell me what If I don't know what's wrong.
Speaker 3:It's like tell me to my face and so that's what they did and I truly felt so more at peace with that and so the more I get into it, it's like I'm about to do classes for discipleship ministry, making discipleship in next generation, intercultural communication, because I want to do global studies, to do ministry overseas. I know America needs help.
Speaker 1:But so does the rest of the world, yeah. So I want to ask Michael here, two guys really going into Christian ministry with a past of temptation and a past of living out a gay lifestyle what do you think are some of the things they're going to have to worry about or be concerned about or be vigilant of, as they're sort of moving forward as just a Christian man following Jesus, with that temptation on the horizon?
Speaker 2:Well, I guess, first of all, just the attacks of the enemy in terms of the message that they have for others, and I think one of the things I want to share on that is I think there's definitely a message that both of you have for other young struggles that many of us would not have, and that's really huge. Because I think I feel like it's really important to really first understand someone's experience before you can even speak into that experience redemptively. Because I feel like you see that in Jesus he understood the woman at the well, her experience, and the woman caught in adultery. He was able to understand the experience and then speak into the experience redemptively. And that's the key is, we want to have a redemptive narrative, a narrative that's not condemning but redemptive. So I say the first challenge is making sure that that's clear in your mind, that the narrative that you come with is redemptive, because God is redeeming both of you and that should always look like compassion, that should always look like understanding, that should always look like empathy, and then that's balanced with truth. So I would say that's probably the main thing that comes to mind, and then continuing to being in community with other people, I feel like walking in the light.
Speaker 2:The Bible talks about all of us. We need to continue to be open about our temptations and our struggles, because we all have them. We all have their temptations and struggles of sexual desire. All of us do. Every person has that.
Speaker 1:And so in yeah, and one of the things that you are. I don't know if you're a sex I don't want to say sex addict professional, I don't know if that's the right way to put that but like someone who counsels people through sex addiction, is there a difference between heterosexual I guess sex addiction or like sin and homosexual heterosexual? That sort of stuff have you seen in your practice? Have you seen throughout life any of that difference?
Speaker 2:Well, I would say, if it is, it's kind of minute. I think the common denominator is misplaced affections and not dealing with what's happened to us, because a lot of times we get asked the wrong questions. We can say what's wrong with someone, so they're doing this or that. What's wrong with that person, and I feel like that posture is for one. It's off-putting.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It builds walls and you can never really connect with someone that way. I think a better question is what's happened to someone?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because what happens to people can give you a lot of clues of what's wrong and quotes. What's wrong with someone and I think that's always a place to start is hey, I wonder what happened here with this individual if they have a particular aversion towards something that's not normative, like a sex addiction or a same sex attraction, so something happened and we can just boil it down and say, well, our sinful nature, yes, but I don't think we can actually just simplify it to that, because we are complex. But how do you get individuals?
Speaker 1:to move forward, so forgetting what's behind and looking on toward what is ahead, in the prize being Jesus.
Speaker 4:How do?
Speaker 1:you like and because I feel like, because obviously you have to address the past, yes, but at the same time, how do you get because there's forgiveness in the past If you don't deal with that? But how do you move that person from looking back at their past and getting self-absorbed in that to then looking ahead to Christ in the future? Is there? I don't know if there's a trick or something, a way of thinking or a mind shift that has to happen, A mind renewal like it talks about in Romans.
Speaker 2:Be renewed in the attitude of your mind, and the gospel points to so many examples of people who once they were here and now they're there. There's so many examples of growth and redemption and transformation. Even in the gospels, even throughout the Old and New Testament, you see people at one place and then you see them transform and get to another place, so continuing to point people towards that.
Speaker 1:So, because I feel like probably what you guys would say and pretty much anyone who struggles with sin is probably here I don't understand what I do, If what I want to do, I do not do, but what I hate, that I keep on doing this is Romans 7, at the very end.
Speaker 1:Who will save me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord, I think if you guys can speak to this for a second, at what point did you come to that? I don't understand what I do, but I do the very thing I hate. And if I then, oh, no crisis of faith. Who's gonna save me? Oh, good news, jesus, talk to me. Aaron, was there a place for in this particular struggle, in this sort of same-sex attraction where you came to the? I'm a believer in Jesus. I agree with the scriptures that the sexual law design that God's laid out is good. I can't do it. Help me, jesus. Like, was there a moment in time for you that happened? Like that?
Speaker 4:So I always have had an uneasiness about this, even before I really, I think, could like look at scripture and identify that yes, like per God's word, homosexuality is a sin.
Speaker 4:Like even at that early age when I began to see this temptation, to have these feelings, like there was never a like I'm on board for this, like I always have had an uneasiness about it. And so I think that as I eventually came to know Christ, like I said in middle school, and continue to grow on my walk, it was still something that I think through most of high school, it was just something that I thought would kind of go away over time. I didn't think that this was like, I didn't really see it as like this is who I am and that this is gonna stick with me. I thought I'm just, I'm a, you know, I'm still growing, you know, and at adolescence and growing up, and like this is eventually gonna go away and I'm just gonna have a normal attraction to women at some point in time. But eventually, like, oh, like that's not happening, like I see this staying with me.
Speaker 4:But I've always looked at this. I mean, since coming to faith, this has been something that I've looked at through a lens of faith and I've seen as is like God is not okay with homosexuality and like I have to turn to Him and trust in Him to just walk through this. Was that something?
Speaker 1:that happened, like I don't know, over a period of time. Like I know this, maybe I'm looking for something that's not there right Like when's the moment Aaron. I want the moment, but maybe there is no moment. It's just like you heard God's word, you believed it was true and over time you go. This thing that I'm feeling is wrong Is that sort of what you're saying?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think that's like I've always thought about that myself, like because I feel like, you know, is there something there that like I didn't, I'm like not like remembering or recalling, but I think it's just something that, over time, like you know, I because I went to a Lutheran middle and high school, so like I was always in an environment where, like God's word was being preached and like they were very clear on their stance on, you know, sexuality.
Speaker 1:Was that a thing though, like in, I guess, fifth, sixth grade, like men and women, I mean. I just was that like an issue that though, hey, we believe that it's sex between a man and a woman, that kind of thing. What do you mean by issue Like like today? It's an issue right, like you know, in the church.
Speaker 1:I have to address it because it's clearly going on in culture. When you were in high school, was it an issue where they had to address it? Not really, I mean, I feel like it was middle of nowhere.
Speaker 4:Illinois right Sort. Of. I mean it was it was, it was in the, it was kind of in the city, but it was not like yeah.
Speaker 4:But yeah, I mean, I don't think like I'm sure, like today, like it's probably a lot more emphasized, like they really have to like hone in on like what God's plan of what His word says about sexuality and you know our design and that.
Speaker 4:But yeah, I just, I think, eventually, like I got to the point where, you know, eventually God called me to move to Austin and God called me to, you know, come here and pursue what I'm doing with engineering and so on and so forth. So I think that like just seeing God and seeing God lead me in life and seeing God's work and His plan in my life unfold, has just been so like encouraging and that's been so much of, I think, of what just reminds me to not give up and to just continue to have that, you know, I guess like that grit and just that strength to keep going and that reminding myself that you know what God has for me and what he's doing in my life is greater than anything that I would have if I were to settle for a gay life. Basically, do you feel?
Speaker 1:like afraid of the future.
Speaker 4:No, not really Like you, don't fear being alone. Like cause.
Speaker 1:I think that if it were me, I do. Like yeah, so like Michael does for crying out loud. But is there a fear that? Oh no, and maybe it's you're too young to fear anything, cause you know you're invincible at 20 something? But like, is there a fear? Like, oh no, I'm gonna be alone. Or oh no, I'm not gonna be satisfied, or oh no, this is not gonna work out?
Speaker 4:Not really. I mean right now, like I have no problems with being single, like cause I've only ever been single, so I don't know what it's like to be in a relationship. You know, I haven't had that experience and but I do. I mean I don't really like, I don't see it as like something that I think about a lot. You know, just, it kind of is my state of life right now as a single person, but I don't really have a struggle Like I don't have this desire to be in a relationship.
Speaker 1:Like you're really either way. You're the real deal, man, but I also believe, or Aaron.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but I think that it's something where I just kind of have like an open hand to, like you know, if God puts the desire on my heart to pursue a certain relationship that will lead to marrying a woman and that that could open up in the future. So I'm not thumbs down on marriage.
Speaker 1:It's just like, I think, for me, whenever I talk to you, it reminds me about how great I don't know how great I have it, but like how content you are, and I think you model that really well Again, unless you're just totally faking it. You've been faking it really consistently for a long time. Which man? It's wild. What about you? Is there, Kayla? Is there any fear that you have about the future? Like, oh no, I gave up my shot, I had my marriage in hand. Or is that like dream so vivid for you that you, that's always in front of your heart and mind?
Speaker 3:I've never. Well, it's like since that dream, I've never really been afraid of the future Because, like we're not promised tomorrow. So what like for me? It's like I've stopped saving for retirement.
Speaker 1:I mean it's like if I'm being completely honest, this is not the financial podcast, by the way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm just like, I'm more of like I'm never promised tomorrow. I have health issues that I have to figure stuff out, so I could be gone, like that. So it's like I know at the end of the day is like, yeah, I wish I married my partner, but at the end of the day I'm extremely grateful because I know that I could be left by so many people, Like when I gave my life to Christ. So many people left my life.
Speaker 1:And I'm like that's fine, I'm not living for you, and it was all the same people that said follow your heart. Yeah it is Once you followed your heart to Jesus. That was not okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'm like okay, fine, and I'm like okay, y'all can think whatever you want, I still I'm not gonna change who I am because of you, but like I feel like I could be the only person on this world and it's like I'd be happy.
Speaker 2:Because like.
Speaker 3:I know that it's like when I screw up and I still struggle with my old life, like it's still prevalent, but it's the fact that I always remind myself that Christ died for me on that cross. He hasn't given up on me. God still has a big plan for me in my life, so why would I give up? And so that's why I don't get scared of the future, Because, like it talks about, you're worried about what? And it's like I got you. I'm in control of your life. It's always gonna be something good for you.
Speaker 1:Michael, what do you and I need to learn from that Cause? These guys seem pretty confident. Like what is you know, is it? They're just naive. Is that what it is, or are they? These guys have just a genuine Holy Spirit and power-ness that they cause, I think you and. I would say like there's a little bit of fear of the future.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it ebbs and flows For me. It's not like I live in a constant state of fear. But I think there's moments that I will struggle with that, and then I have to continue to go to God, continue to pray, continue to process it with people, and that's how I and I like the day by day. Cause that's what I say, man, I only can focus on today. I can't worry about tomorrow. I'm not even sure if I'm gonna be here tomorrow, next week or next year.
Speaker 3:Please help us on a day at a time.
Speaker 2:That's been the most helpful yeah.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, hey guys, I man, I really appreciate you guys coming in. If you've got any questions on this text, us 737-231-0605. Or go to pastorplekcom and drop a note. We would love to bring these guys back. As you know, these guys are always available and accessible and you'll see them around. One of the beautiful things is I'm watching your guys lives transform. I'm watching your guys you're growing more deeper into your faith. I mean, I remember Kailor. There were times where I was like he's wavering, I don't know. I don't know, that Facebook post looked pretty out there. So I'm super grateful for your heart and the way the Lord has been working. So, listen, if you got any questions, please let us know. Drop us a line. We'd love to connect and really talk more about this issue as it's. We're in Austin, texas, so this is in our face every single day and we're wanting to talk more about it. So, from our house to yours, as you're living out here Christian life, have an awesome week of worship.