291: Pastor Plek, Machine Gun Nick, Adrienne, and special guest Suzanne Baldwin attempt to unravel the threads of human suffering in this episode of Pastor Plek's Podcast. This episode pulls back the curtain on the raw and real moments of despair with our guest, Machine Gun Nick, whose spiral into self-destruction offers a powerful testimony to the perils of losing faith in the midst of suffering. Suzanne weighs in on the illusion of control and the empty promises of moralism, as Adrienne sheds light on the ease with which we misjudge others' struggles.
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291: Pastor Plek, Machine Gun Nick, Adrienne, and special guest Suzanne Baldwin attempt to unravel the threads of human suffering in this episode of Pastor Plek's Podcast. This episode pulls back the curtain on the raw and real moments of despair with our guest, Machine Gun Nick, whose spiral into self-destruction offers a powerful testimony to the perils of losing faith in the midst of suffering. Suzanne weighs in on the illusion of control and the empty promises of moralism, as Adrienne sheds light on the ease with which we misjudge others' struggles.
Got questions? Text us at 737-231-0605!
Like, share, and subscribe! We love seeing and responding to your reviews and comments.
Support the show: https://wbcc.churchcenter.com/giving
and welcome back to pastor flex podcast. I'm so glad all of you are joining us as we're recording live right here in austin texas so excited for all of you who have just experienced the eclipse, and with me in studio is none other than machine gun nick. Welcome back, machine gun nick. How do you? And also, is we have Suzanne? Suzanne, is this your first time on the show?
Speaker 2:It is my first time on this podcast.
Speaker 1:Oh, what other podcasts do you have?
Speaker 2:I have my own podcast. Tell us about what your podcast is. I have a podcast called Cherry Ice Cream Smile.
Speaker 1:And what exactly does Cherry Ice Cream Smile talk about Duran?
Speaker 2:Duran.
Speaker 1:Wow, I don't want to say that dates you, because you could be just, you're just a classic 80s, 90s person. Yeah, okay, it's possibly it all, right, awesome, uh. So, and then also with me in studio is none other than mrs adrian plegan full that's right, my sweet wife and we just we just recovered our dog, which was good.
Speaker 3:We never lost her actually.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's good, all right. Well, we're talking about how do you respond to suffering? And uh, we, we looked at the whole book of Job, and so the book of Job has 42 chapters. First chapter sort of sets it up Uh, satan comes to God.
Speaker 1:God says to Satan hey, have you noticed my servant Job? And he's like listen, all of Job's blessings. Of course he loves you, wouldn't. Anybody who gets that much favor is going to be all about you. But you strike him and he will hate you and he will curse you to your face, and that's how. And then he does he has 10 kids, all of them die. He's super wealthy, all of how. And then he does he has 10 kids, all of them die. He has, he's super wealthy, all of it's gone and he still doesn't curse God. And then, in fact, he, satan, has to come back and says listen, the problem is you need to like, make him sick and feel miserable because he's just a selfish guy and so he doesn't actually care about anybody else, he only cares about himself. And he strikes him and he refuses to curse God. And that's where how the story sets up. And what I like about this is nobody has it worse ever than Joe Can we talk about like? Have you ever had anything even comparable to this machine gun, nick?
Speaker 4:No, no, so far, thank God, I've not been homeless and I don't have boils growing on my head. You know all over.
Speaker 1:Yeah, suzanne, anything comparable.
Speaker 2:Not all at the same time, okay.
Speaker 1:So you've had some sorrows.
Speaker 2:I've had some sorrows. I think we've all had some sorrows.
Speaker 1:Yeah, adrienne, any anything that you could say like is right up there with Job. No, okay, yeah, I don't think any of us can, uh, but we've all, we've all experienced suffering. And let's just go over some of the responses um, to suffering, uh, that you, that that these people are facing, and so, as we were going to do that, we're going to talk about, uh, think about your primary place of suffering in your life machine gun, nick. So I want you to think about that, and Suzanne as well, and then Adrian as well, the, the, the, the. The difference will actually three, four, five, six, seven, eight responses the.
Speaker 1:We have the first response, which is Job's wife. She says curse God and die, which is pretty cynical. It kind of like uh, I'm giving up and you should give up too, and God might be powerful. In fact, we will all say that he is, but he is not good, you can't trust him, he's chaotic and he just has no rhyme or reason to anything that he does. So curse him and then live your life to the full, because it's over, and go and kill yourself, which is sort of a wild response. Have you ever felt like that? Has there been anything in your life that's kind of had a curse god and die moment. For you, this is a free, free, open, answered well yeah, all right, so what do you?
Speaker 4:got well. So when the catholic catechism people told me that if you know you kill a bunch of people in combat out of anger and then die, you're gonna go to heck hell, I was kind of like, okay, that's awesome. So okay, god, you suck too yeah you were.
Speaker 1:You were anger, rage. I mean just just disgust. I'm not dealing with that yeah, I would say disgusted.
Speaker 4:yeah, I, you know it in a life of sin. It felt like freedom, like, oh, okay, I don't need to be guilty over this stuff. Now Right, it's already planned, it's predestined. I'm not going into heaven, I'm going to hell, and so I can do whatever I want. Now Right. So it was. You know, that was kind of in. There were moments where I was like you know, screw you, god. Like what do you ever do for?
Speaker 1:me Wow, that's intense. And tell me how that mentality worked for you.
Speaker 4:It didn't. I mean that went down a whole road of drunken depravity. Eventually, you know, it went down the the two divorces, um, which crashes into. Let's, let's use marijuana to. So I don't blow my own head off right like my soldiers had like. So it just was. It just was like this ever-spiring downward moment where you're white knuckling, it being like I'm gonna hold on, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna bring this ship up right eventually right and but there's no, I don't think there's really any stopping like has, as as it went lower and lower, okay, spiraling out out so that did not work for you.
Speaker 1:Uh, a mindset. So what about? What about anyone else? Have like a curse God and die moment? Suzanne, do you ever have a curse God and die moment?
Speaker 2:I mean maybe a fleeting moment especially like situationally. Well, yeah, being single and being single over 40, there have been moments when I felt very, very alone. And you know, and I blame God and I'm not happy about it, I'm angry and I think I you know God doesn't let me stay there too long, but I'm. You know, there've been some moments that I have been that angry and you know, his wife was angry and didn't trust God. And there's been points in my life where I've been angry and not trusted God in the moment.
Speaker 1:Adrienne, have you experienced anything like that?
Speaker 3:Um, I think that's a good question. I don't really know.
Speaker 1:You haven't done a curse God and die moment, have you?
Speaker 3:No, like I've never. I don't think I've, I don't think God's ever been the target of my anger. Uh, yet I'm not going to say when it happened, but I think for me it's been. I think I will say when. I think before we were married there were relationships that were really disappointing to me and I and they that felt spiritual Relationships did feel kind of spiritual because it was like man, like what causes a man and a woman to like, really like, each other?
Speaker 3:I'm like everyone's screwed up. Everyone has issues. Everyone has, like you know, emotional, physical, mental flaws. Everyone does. So why like?
Speaker 3:Why is it that people are drawn to certain people and then why do relationships not work out? I mean, it's not like any marriage is without issues, and so I think there was times in those seasons where I was like man. This is frustrating and this is harder and this feels like God is like like why is God allowing me to feel a certain way towards some person and that was disappointing to me and then like and then to be hurt by them, or to be, or vice versa, for someone to feel something towards me and I'm like man. Why Like? This is irritating and like.
Speaker 3:I don't really like it was, like it was always the wrong person or something, and I just feel kind of like that, though that was the probably the time for me where and I did feel kind of like what, suzanne, what you were saying I felt alone otherwise. And so then, whereas I think in my time being a mom I've been really frustrated and really down but not as frustrated at God as I was pre-marriage, which is interesting more frustrated, like wishing I could just die to escape, but not because I'm like, oh, I'm just so mad at God. I haven't.
Speaker 3:I think that really for me really was from when I felt lonely and God was kind of the only person I felt like I understood me, and then to feel like gosh, why are you allowing this? That felt different, Whereas now the object of my anger is other people that I feel close to no, that's good, that's good.
Speaker 1:So I feel like, so that response of curse God and die, I think is more of a rare not I would say rare, that's probably not a good way, but I'd say it's typically not the full christian response. I think the moralist response which we're about to get to with the three friends is probably where I would uh find out, like when something bad happens, I should die because it's probably my fault, and I just kind of think of all the reasons why it all went wrong and so therefore I'm the problem. Uh, in fact that's what happens with um, the three friends, eliphiphaz, bildad and Zophar. They come to Job, they sit with him in the ash heap dumpster area and they're like they sit with him for two weeks which you got to give them credit for that and like how are they not working? I don't understand how that works. Where does people get two weeks of vacation? But maybe they're like, oh, this is that bad, the rest of my life can be put on hold, and maybe they're wealthy enough to kind of do that. So they go and they sit with Job for two weeks and then, after Job complains about how awful life is, they speak up and they say you know, the reason this is happening is because of something you did.
Speaker 1:And so they speak into a really moralist view Good things happen to good people, bad things happen to the bad people. And if you, if, if God allows all this to happen, clearly you must've done something. It's it's the classic John nine the man born blind and the disciples goes God, whose sin was this? This man's sin or his parents' sin that he was born blind? So the automatic assumption for a blind, homeless guy right guy, and maybe he did have a home, but a blind guy begging on the side of the road was that you must have done something wrong or somebody must have done something wrong for you to end up like this. And that is basically moralism.
Speaker 1:And and uh, one of the questions we had, uh, from our um pastor, pastor, pastor Plex podcast questions was during today's message. We're referring to the way we expect sin, expect blessings, when we feel like we sin less. The pastor said I call this view moralism. Is this a term only he uses or is this a term widely used across the Christian theological community? And I would say to you that that is a term used across the community that we need to be sort of aware of Legalism. I think we mentioned might be a good way to put that. But moralism is better because legalism at least you have some sort of law. Moralism is, and maybe this is it.
Speaker 1:You've created your own standard that this is what a moral should be, and if I live up to this, then I should get blessing. If I don't live up to this, I should expect loss, and I think that's how a lot of people live life, especially Christians, because we are moral people and so, therefore, when I do good, I expect good. And, to be fair, all throughout Proverbs and all throughout the New Testament, you reap what you sow, like that is a biblical concept. However, it the thing that the difference between karma and Christianity is? It's not a guarantee that what you reap or what you what you sow you'll reap. Does that make sense? Is that a clear thing for you guys? Wrap your head around Clear.
Speaker 4:Not really. Only because, like you're saying that you sew this and you might not get what. What comes comes back from it. Right, oh, I understand how you you're putting it, but why is it that, if I sew something, that's not what I'm gonna get?
Speaker 1:right, because that makes you the god right like. So god becomes a genie. Because let's say, let's just go planting crops, because that's reaping and sowing. So if you sow crops, well, you're expecting to reap and in general you should but that doesn't mean a storm's not going to come around, hailstorm or something, and wipe out your crops, and so you sowed and you got nothing. The general principle is you stick a seed in the ground, it's going to germinate, it's going to be grow and be fruitful. But I think what happens if, if I pull the lever and then things don't happen, that can be frustrating. Otherwise entrepreneurship and, um, any business at all, would be pure success. The reason why it's not is there's the fear, there's failure, and that's why entrepreneurs are the riskiest people in the world. But general principle you reap what you sow, but you've we all know people who started something, hit an obstacle and quit. I think we all know people who have done that. We've all maybe experienced some of that.
Speaker 3:So, yes, I feel that way I also. I came across okay I was trying to find the actual verse, but in Romans eight and nine I feel like I've hit something. Recently I actually texted this to my community group, but it was essentially talking about how there's nothing that we like, our actions aren't deciding for us really anything. It's like if we are able to do something good that glorifies God, it's because of his work inside of us that enabled us to do this good work. And when we disobey or when we do something that's not pleasing to him, like we're not reaping what we should reap for. That, like the fact that we're saved period is means we're not reaping what we should reap for that, like the fact that we're saved period is means we're not reaping that.
Speaker 3:So there was kind of this mentality of like our entire life is not a cause and effect of our actions and, ultimately, what the Lord chooses to do. However, there's a, there's a layer of um, there's a layer of not of like consequence, I think I think God, I know I feel consequence, all often from sin. But consequence from sin is different than this moralist view of like oh, because I've done something bad, now I'm God is like going to kind of orchestrate things against me. That's very different than and so when somebody like I often feel like you know you'll hear of someone getting in a car wreck, or I have this experience back. There was a really weird tragedy a few several years ago. A girl that we'd all grown up with like at Hill Country passed away out of nowhere, literally dropped dead in her house. It was like super weird. They still don't really know why and it was like okay, well, you're left trying to make sense of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember this. Yeah, I remember this yeah. And it's like all of her peers, she had like four kids right.
Speaker 3:Well, no, she had one and she was pregnant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one, and she was pregnant. That's right, and it kind of.
Speaker 3:I think that it looked as though maybe she'd had a C-section, there could have been a blood clot and that was what ultimately, like killed her inside a. She didn't make any sense and all of her peers are like everyone's afraid and everyone's like wanting to ensure that this isn't going to happen to them.
Speaker 1:So everyone's just selfishly engaging the tragedy. It's not like we're not over there grieving and maybe like, oh, she probably did something wrong. Right. Whether it was she didn't check, get a after whatever operation checkup from the doctor.
Speaker 3:We're trying to find either something physical or spiritual that she's done wrong. It's like people are kind of trying to make sense.
Speaker 3:Not because, not actually because we believe that she is like in my. From my perspective, it's not because we really believe that she, like, was owed this, but because we're afraid and we're trying to soothe our own fears and making sure that. How can I ensure this isn't going to happen to me? Okay, I do a good job and you start to like and you can find evidence for whatever you want to believe. So if you want to find evidence that you've lived your life in a way that's superior to how you perceive she lived her life, and to feel that you might be not at risk for that, you can. Or if you want to go at it from the opposite and find evidence that you've not done some things and then send yourself into this spiral of anxiety, you can do that too well, machine gun nick.
Speaker 1:Is this something that you think men deal with, like when something bad happens to somebody else? Is there a part of you that goes oh, they must have done something to deserve that. Or do you just go huh, that was weird and sort of not try and take two steps beyond it depends.
Speaker 4:Okay, because it does depend. Because, like, if, if it just happens like a freak accident, you're like, oh, okay. And that's when you're like, huh, if you see somebody who's constantly like setback after setback, yeah, setback, and like the freakiest things keep happening to them, that's when I think I go, what are you doing?
Speaker 1:right like, but do you ever worry about in terms of you, like that's gonna happen to you a little bit? Oh, really okay, because when I hear, when I heard that story, adrian, I had a hard time like connecting that. But that's, this might be something. That is because I don't ever think that happened to them, that might happen to to me, and maybe there's a little bit of arrogance there.
Speaker 4:All I mean by that. So so like, if you, if you talk about death well, they died from this I don't really, I don't really internalize that. I'm like, okay, yeah, all right. But if, like, you talk about car accidents, because I swear to God, driving around Austin, it's not, it's not an if, it's a win right.
Speaker 3:That one I'm kind of like okay, my whole argument, all of COVID is I'm like you get on 35. Like I don't like go lick the floor at at McDonald's and you're safer from COVID than like you then getting your body on 35 in a vehicle. But you know what? It's fine All right.
Speaker 1:So so tell me about this, adrienne. I agree with you To with you To the point is like when your friends saw this, they internalized that might happen to me, and so they really felt real anxiety.
Speaker 3:It wasn't even just one of my friends, like it was so this girl that died. She was four years younger than me, she was my sister's age, and their entire peer group was unhinged. It was like all of them, I think, like some are on medication now for anxiety, All of them, I think what ended up in counseling, not as a collective, they all live, they all have spread over the U? S like it's, not like they were all together still, but it was like it's. It did something for them and it should like. When a young mom in her early twenties drops dead for no reason, that should kind of mess with you a little bit. But it what was. What was interesting to me is it was, I think, when you're trying to find cause and effect is I think that's a good way to like wreck yourself because like and here's this is where I also feel this way Like you know, there's people who would look like right now our children are running around in an alley where we've just heard like five semis driving past, and most parents wouldn't be doing that.
Speaker 3:Most parents would feel like we needed to be watching them and we need to be, and we're kind of like not worried about it.
Speaker 3:And so if one of our kids was to get hit ever someday I'm not talking about today, but literally ever in the next 30 years if one of our kids get hit by a car, I guarantee you we're going to have a whole collection of friends. It's like, oh yeah, those they didn't really watch their kids. And I'm like, okay, fair, they're creating a cause and effect that makes sense to them to and they feel that they're superior, that they watch their kids. They don't, they wouldn't, but like who's to say, you couldn't be staring watching your children and a tragedy could still happen anyway. And I feel so strongly that God is sovereign over those things that I'm willing to do what we're doing right now and really not feel bad about it. But and part of why I feel so confident is I have walked through, I have done some of the dumbest things, not not even realizing the risk I was incurring, and I truly believe that God went before me. And there have been times when some of those decisions were made in sin and God still protected me.
Speaker 1:Right, but you're not advocating like we should have the kids go play in traffic, Cause I think sometimes people can have like like almost like. Well, you know all the days of our written in the book. So we're predestined to go and live and die and whatever, and so there's still a human responsibility that we're not supposed to just like. Put God to the test.
Speaker 3:But you can, human responsibility can fit here, and there's a lot of really high control and really low control that can all fit under that and I think it's so important. I think the high control, human responsibility people, in my opinion, are stressing themselves out and they're putting themselves on a position of judgment.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is good. Keep coming with this, cause I feel like this is what people need to hear yeah, and this is it's very fear based.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that's what I'm hearing. And back to like the moralistic or the legalism yeah, but what? If that is built on fear and making these rules and saying if I do these rules.
Speaker 1:I'm going to stay safe. Have you experienced that? That as a single person, like if I do this and God has to bless me with a husband or whatever?
Speaker 2:Well, I was around during the I kiss dating goodbye situation.
Speaker 1:Oh, of course you are, me too, yes.
Speaker 2:And you know, kind of they were saying if you follow these five rules, you're going to get married and you're going to have this great future. And you know what? I followed the five rules and I'm still not married and I've never been married, but I follow some of those rules because they were God's rules and I feel like I was a beating obedient to God. Not that I was following the rules, cause they said to do it, yeah, and I felt like God was leading me. Like you know, adrian, you're talking about gray areas. I think in the Bible there's quite a few black and white things, but there's a lot more gray in the Bible than especially evangelical Christians like to kind of release.
Speaker 1:All is permissible but not all is beneficial, and deciding what is permissible and beneficial is really a lot of that's in discernment, yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh, I completely agree and I feel I look at my life and there was decisions I made, sometimes like I lived in Costa Rica for a summer when I was getting my I got a Spanish degree and I lived with the family and looking back and like the whole thing was a big dumpster fire, like there was zero accountability on this family and there's no reason I should have ever trusted them. And the neighborhood that they lived in was one of the roughest outskirts of San Jose, costa Rica, which is which is not a good area. And like I was walking around just on my own, finding internet cafes every afternoon, trying to call my parents or like touch base with friends, and there's no reason that I should have. Like I should have had had every horrible thing happened to me in that time, but I didn't. And but then, and I and you could say, oh, adrian, your heart was pure. I'm like, no, I think God was just choosing to protect me, okay, but then there was other times where my heart really was seeking. I was seeking physical connection right From from men in a way that was not honoring to God, and I put myself in situations where I should have been really taken advantage of and I and I willfully walked in. I would initiate these situations and God should have, like you know, one he should have like never died for my sins. But then, two, the natural consequence of the choice I was making should have been much, much worse, but instead God spared me some of that natural consequence and then I was left with emotional consequences that I've continued to work through to this day. But it's like I think that that's where I've seen way too many times where it doesn't make sense. There isn't a cause and effect that makes sense. But I can always land on. God works for the, for his glory and for our good.
Speaker 3:And I even go back to parenting.
Speaker 3:Like I think with parenting there's so many situations where parents just feel like it's easy to judge another, another parent's like way of doing things, and I feel like I was a product of my parents checking a lot of right boxes. They did a lot of right things, but that didn't, that didn't mean that I was without some like big issues to work through, and so I'm kind of like man. My mom and dad nailed it on a, on a surface level, checklist of like all these things you can do perfectly in the perfect amount of spiritual and emotional and discipline and boundary. And they did it, they nailed it, but it was like, but there was still problems, there was still sin, there was still issues that like, were hard for me to wrestle through and work through. So I'm kind of like anyone that runs around feeling a sense of pride and like I'm nailing it. Therefore, I'm void of suffering, I'm like I worry about, I'm like you have it coming because God loves you enough to break you of your own pride and arrogance.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, go ahead. And just back to the question that they were asking about blessing yeah so not avoiding bad things? Well, I feel like two oh interesting.
Speaker 1:What if the question was uh, uh, when, referring to the way we expect blessing, when we feel like we sin less, so blessing comes? It's kind of funny. It's like not that I'm doing the right thing, I'm just sitting less.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a funny, that's an interesting way of putting it, cause I feel like we're talking about sort of what was happening with Job and his friends saying this bad stuff happened Cause you were doing something bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like secret bad.
Speaker 2:We don't know what.
Speaker 1:Clearly it was bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he wasn't doing anything bad. But they were saying you had to be doing something bad and that's why bad stuff's happening to you. But I feel like that question is a little flipped of how do you make good things happen? And I guess, if we look at this story, it was being Job was being faithful to God and in the end he blessed him with good things, but he was faithful in the hard stuff. Is that maybe?
Speaker 1:the answer Sort of sort of, and it goes this was Job, really faithful in the hard stuff. I mean, he didn't, he wasn't. Well, he didn't curse God he didn't curse God, but he wasn't exactly. Isn't God? Good God is so awesome, but he wasn't exactly. Isn't God good God is so awesome? He was like where are you, god? Come talk to me. He accused God of not knowing what's going on.
Speaker 3:Which, going back, you can find evidence for either. If you want to take the approach that he was, you know upright in his suffering, you can find evidence of that. But if you want to have a high, a different standard, you can find evidence that he wasn't. And so I don't think it mattered. I don't think his response was what determined God's choice for blessing him.
Speaker 1:Right, and so let's get to the next one, which is Job, or sorry. The next person was Elihu, which is interesting, elihu, his response. We really cover this on Sunday, but Elihu's response was hey, job, you're in the wrong and cause? Job was saying he was innocent and then he told the other friends you don't know what's going on, you have no idea what God is doing. Don't assume that Job has done something wrong, and that's why I really appreciate Elihu. His, his response was most godly of them all because he understood, um, which is, I think, that's sort of the role that I think God is calling us to play. We should be like Elihu who, when we see suffering, we speak into it saying like I don't know why God would allow that, cause I think what they're saying the reason why God allowed you to be single is you must've done something wrong.
Speaker 1:The reason why, you know, do better, uh, and I think that is the most annoying thing in the world, right.
Speaker 3:So I felt this okay when we, when Austin was born, he was, he was not a sleeping child Okay, and I so I did operate as a parent with this idea. When I'm brand new parent, in my pregnancy, in my like preparing to be a mom, I really did believe that, like I can kind of do some right things and like receive some blessing, I really, I really was operating in that mindset and so I had done, I like created, I took baby wise, which is this like I won't even go into it, it's a book that feels that very confident about policies that work for a lot of babies and there's some good fundamental truths in it that I think are excellent.
Speaker 3:So I took the BabyWise book and I like reduced it to like three pages of notes that were like color coded and highlighted and laid out really well, to where you could kind of pick up the paper and find any stage, any age, figure out like very quickly reference the course of action that you were to take to receive this, this like guaranteed outcome, and it was a. It was the biggest fail of my whole life when Austin was born and we could nothing. Zero of it worked, in fact, to the point that I think we did him more harm.
Speaker 1:We did him severe harm.
Speaker 3:It was. He was three years old and I was. I read an article on abandoned children overseas, Okay, and it was like what they and it matched. It was a perfect match to my three-year-old in terms of, like, how they engage, how they don't engage, and I was like, wow, we have successfully in our home, trying as hard as we could to love our child, we have given his like little emotional mental psyche, like a feeling of complete abandonment, and I'm like, and people are like, oh, adrian, it's okay, like it is okay. God's bigger than that. I 100% believe God healed him. I 100% God's going to use that and is using that to like make us in the man that he's going to become, use that and is using that to like make us in the man that he's going to become.
Speaker 3:However, that was a bad moment of realization that my desire to control and my desire out of fear of not sleeping, out of fear of messing up my kid and out of fear of not receiving the blessing I wanted, I was working so hard to control and to get this outcome and and I was doing it all right, okay, but my friends who were also doing it all right were having success. So they were letting me know and helping me out around every corner and I couldn't and I needed to just shut up and stop talking about the fact, like if I could have just closed my mouth. But I was like struggling and I kind of like to struggle with people and community, and so I was constantly like man, we're having a hard time, I'm having a hard time, and part of it was just like I kind of wanted to explain like can you believe I've done all these things?
Speaker 3:And like it was such a fail and people couldn't hear that because they were operating from a place of like well, we're doing all those things and it's working, so you for sure must be doing something wrong. And my most, his most loving friends, who genuinely loved me and wanted to help me, were the. It was. It was horrible. I was like tormenting and um, I mean they would tell me, like well, you must not be hardcore enough or you must not be. Well, is Chris really on board? Is Chris or what is, or what are you feeding or what? And I was just like, and I wasn't. Nothing I was doing was different really than what they were doing. And that was the most excruciating part of the whole struggle was the, the lack of understanding I could have from community. It was horrible. That sounds like Jim's friends.
Speaker 2:Right, right.
Speaker 4:But what about? What about discerning some of these things that happened to like your neighbors as a sign to you Like? So when, when I was like quitting smoking, right, remember, I like quit for like maybe a month or two and then I was like like, well, I just have like one a week now, right, yeah right and I continued that for maybe a couple months.
Speaker 4:And then I go and you know my literal neighbor, the guy next door to me, who is like a pack a day smoker since I don't know when, like his whole life, right, right, I go over there and they're like he's got lung cancer and he hands me his last pack and I'm like I'm feeling like I shouldn't even take this right, and I go back and there went hundreds right. So there's the extra long ones and I'm going through something. Who knows what it is, you know. So I'm like whatever, I'm just going to smoke one, right, and then I smoke another, but I've only spoken half of them. So in my head I'm like all right, but the same.
Speaker 4:The same time I'm doing this I'm thinking like you got to quit, like your neighbor had lung cancer and he got lucky. They only had to cut a little bit of his lung out and repair him and he can walk now. And now he wears you know, he wears a cross around his neck which was never saw that one before. But I'm like this is a sign, like this is over. And I did, and I totally did, I like threw the pack away. The same day I threw the pack away. I went back in the garbage, grabbed one yes, I know that's disgusting Grabbed one more out and smoked it, and that's that is it. That's the last time I did it, because I discerned that that happening his he like, what happened to him was actually like a sign to me to stop like we got that took.
Speaker 3:You had humility. You had humility to be able because you could have been like. I'll never be like that guy. Yeah, I have control. That's the difference, you see the difference there.
Speaker 1:it's like when I, when you start saying that guy's a moron right as opposed to oh, that happened bad to him. I probably should take the advice.
Speaker 3:You had a, you had a heart and a posture of humility. And in being able to have that train of thought, have you, suzanne?
Speaker 1:have you in your singleness? Have you experienced someone telling like other than Joshua Harris, who is now a pastor? Experienced someone telling like other than Joshua Harris, who is now a pastor? Have you experienced anyone saying to you like if you?
Speaker 2:would just do these things. You would get a man Not overtly, but I feel like the church in general has these ideas out there, especially with young singles, of what they should be doing xyz things still to this day, right, um, you know. Another area that I'm suffering in currently is that I'm looking for a job and you know I I was part of a layoff during 2020 and then I had a contract and that contract went away and I think, what's your job Like? Professionally, my job, I do marketing communications. So you were contracted with I was with a big technology company.
Speaker 1:And so then they said, okay, we're not renewing it. And so then has anyone said to you since then you should do this, you shouldn't do that. If you'd only been whatever.
Speaker 2:This is an example I think is a little easier to kind of go down that road is that people are trying to be helpful and they give you kind of a list of things that you should or shouldn't be doing. They also go well. Why do you think that happened? Why do you think the contract went away? Or why do you think you got on the list for the layoff, which a lot I'm sure a lot of our listeners, especially in Austin, deal with this a lot.
Speaker 1:Well, the tech world, which a lot, I'm sure a lot of our listeners especially in Austin, deal with this a lot. Well, the tech world right. I mean we're in tech central, and so I think a lot of people are struggling with this exact thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean. So it's both things. It's what did I not do when I was at the job that might've caused me not to have that job right now? You go down that path and then there is the what do I do now that I'm looking for a job and I need to check all these boxes to make it happen?
Speaker 1:So it's kind of yeah, moralism kind of creeps into all sorts of spaces. The other spot that we get to is with Job, when he goes if God, you are not all knowing, you don't know what is going on, and when he says that to God, that to me is in a sense blasphemy. Now, it's not direct blasphemy, like cursing God, but it is attributing to God something that's not true. All right, and he's not just simply saying my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? That's actually biblical. That's a good thing to say when you're sad. Say that, although it isn't fully true, because God has never forsaken his own.
Speaker 1:But Jesus said that when he was actually forsaken and that was the right thing for him to say. And so I think you can kind of experience that. In fact, psalm 88 says darkness is my only friend. There is no happy ending to Psalm 88. And so there are moments in life when you kind of appeal to God and say it really hurts, but Job has an expectation that if God actually knew what was going on, he would have the right response. And it puts Job in the spot of God, which I found to be sort of like a dangerous place to be.
Speaker 2:Because even like even you know all, in the Psalms I mean, there's laments like we can complain to God.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, we can get angry at God.
Speaker 2:Like it's okay.
Speaker 3:That's intimacy, it's relational intimacy with God.
Speaker 1:Well, it was through the, the anger and the frustration and the questioning that he pressed into God and got the answer, which was that you need to shut up, sit down, which is sort of wild. That that was the thing. And he's like, oh, I feel so close to God now I repent. Right, it wasn't. God says, who are you to question me? And he's like, oh yeah, well, who are you to make me? He didn't go that route. When he heard God's word, he repented.
Speaker 1:And I think that is the way we should come to God's word, especially in our pain, especially in our hurt. Whenever God's word tells us, don't be anxious about anything, but everything. By prayer and supplication, with Thanksgiving, present your request to God, and the peace of God, which is all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. I think we should have that. Oh yeah, I need to respond like that. But the initial cry of the heart is God and I think that's that is a biblical response. But we have to know when we're going to God. His shoulders are wide enough for us to lean into and cry upon.
Speaker 1:And I also mentioned Luke 18 on Sunday, where this widow goes to God or goes to a judge and says, hey, give me justice against my adversary. And he's like woman, you're not, you can't pay me enough, I don't care about you, I don't care about justice, I don't care about you, I don't care about justice, I don't care about your God. But she keeps coming back and annoying him and he goes because you just keep annoying me. I will see that you get justice, and soon, and that's wild to me. And then Jesus says will not God, who is a father in heaven, take care of his own? But when but will he find? Will the son of man find faith on the earth? I think that's the problem. We don't have faith to take our requests and our complaints and our frustrations to God.
Speaker 2:I think one thing you mentioned Sunday morning when you started was that God was the only person that knew what was happening in heaven. The only character in the story that knew. Satan came up and said does that happen? Job doesn't know that's happening.
Speaker 1:He doesn't know.
Speaker 2:And so that's the thing too. Job feels alone by himself. He has these friends that are all like dogging on him and God sees the big picture. And God sees the big picture in our lives too, and that was a great reminder going into the book of Job, that you know he, he doesn't know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's where we're all at.
Speaker 4:But on a philosophical side of this, like how many times do you think this conversation happens between Satan and God?
Speaker 1:I don't know, but Satan can't do anything without God's permission. Right, so it must happen. I don't know if he's got like a. You know he has to submit a request.
Speaker 4:Like a leave request, like back in the army, yeah.
Speaker 1:So like, hey, listen, uh, there's machine gun, Nick. Uh, I've got here's my seven things I want to tempt him with. Are you, are you down with that? And God has to go like he can handle that one, that one. Oh, we can't, no, not that one. But here's what Satan has asked that he might sift you, like what he sent in the you know the temptation request, and it got denied. Uh, but clearly Peter in his flesh denied the Lord. But then Jesus goes and says you won't be able to sift him, I'm going to go and grab him. And that, to me, was awesome. Uh, so every request to God from, or every you know temptation requests, every bad, evil, suffering thing goes from Satan to God. It comes across his desk and he either signs off on it or he doesn't. But he's doing it for a reason that you can't know and I think we we wrapped our head around this. You will never know this side of heaven.
Speaker 2:So I have a quick question. Job is in the Old Testament and we live in the New Testament, as believers were sealed in the spirit, so the spirit is in us now.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:So when Satan's going with his request, yeah, he can do bad stuff to us, but we have the spirit and the power of the spirit that Job wouldn't necessarily have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is a great question. He didn't have the Holy Spirit like we did or we do, um, but clearly he was a righteous man, uh, and this is where, in that time, his faith was in the coming of the Messiah. And so how that it worked Old Testament wise with, like you know, being a follower of God is not really clear to me. His salvation is clear to me because his hope was always in God and he never turned from that.
Speaker 2:But should our confidence even be stronger in God working on our behalf because of the Holy Spirit? Well, we have God's word now.
Speaker 1:So the very thing that Job did not have was God's word Like there was in fact. So the very thing that Job did not have was God's word Like there was. In fact, we believe that Job is the first written book of the Bible and so even before Genesis. It just seems to be dated earlier. And so when you read Job you're realizing there hasn't been a revelation of God's word to the people other than I mean.
Speaker 1:Clearly it is past Adam and Eve, so he knew that don't kill people. It was past probably, the Noahic flood, don't. And that all you get from that is don't kill people and don't drink blood. So that's about all you've got from from. God's revelation to mankind is don't kill. And so here he is. So he knows don't commit suicide. That probably is clear to him. But, man, there's just a big, vacuous hole of information to hear from the Lord on, and I think that's that'd be super hard, whereas with us we do have God's word to go back onto and lean into and say God, I trust your word that you have spoken to me, cause once Job heard God's word he repented immediately. And I think that's the difference for us today, is we have access to God's word readily available.
Speaker 3:I agree, and I would even say I think, in our struggle, one thing that I feel so strong about because I do think I have ascribed to a moralism perspective in certain seasons of life over certain things, perspective in certain seasons of life over certain things and I feel like what I've learned is, anytime I elevate myself to believing that there's a cause and effect based on my good, my good efforts or my you know, sloppy efforts that I'm like, I elevate myself to, to like this level where I feel pressure to like that's a lot of pressure Like I'm deciding my outcome over the things I matter most, based on my ability to kind of will myself to to do or not do the things or you, or ask God's help. But it's like when, once I elevate myself to feeling personal pressure and responsibility past a point of God's sovereignty, well then I'm stuck and it's the most loving thing God can do to remind me that it's like actually not about me and it's actually not about my efforts. And so what stinks sometimes is it takes me having a child that screams for two years and doesn't sleep for me to finally realize, okay, you know what, maybe this isn't about my efforts and like I can hire every sleep consultant, I can do everything I want to do and God is like he wants me to go through this season. And when I look back at that season, we're about going back to that story early about Austin.
Speaker 3:You, chris and I, were out of control in our schedule with ministry. I don't know if Chris still would believe that, but we were. We didn't have balance. Our marriage was on, not on a trajectory that would have been good for us. We wouldn't have been able. The life we have now In fact I was laying in bed. We're thinking about this yesterday I'm like the life we have now where, like Chris comes home and like leads these kids in football practice and coaches their games, and we have relationships where people that we just like, that we have over. Like we were not on a trajectory for that kind of balance and focus on our family.
Speaker 1:In my opinion, I would say, you were differently.
Speaker 3:Okay, that's great, that's fine. I believe that we were not, and so I think God used these two years of a screaming child and a lack of sleep for us to like we had to change things up. Like we had to stop doing so much ministry in the evenings because we were struggling so bad. We had to prioritize a date night because we couldn't just expect that we were going to have time together on a consistent basis, because our schedule was so like we restructured so many pieces in our lives in those two years that we that we've stuck with for the last now 12 years.
Speaker 3:And I'm like I think I really believe that God, it took this excruciating experience for us to like let go and stop white knuckling the way we were going to go about ministry and the way we were going to go about marriage. And it was the most loving, kind thing that God could do to us to allow that season and also kind of take me off the throne of being the one to control all of it, like it was the most loving thing for him to do. But it was so painful and it was so hard and I think and I look, we have these friends at this family camp we go to up in Pennsylvania. It's a military family camp, so a lot of them have many children and they're Christian families and I have more respect for those moms than I do probably anybody in the world. It's like these moms pretty much did it by themselves with with several children and they nailed it on all the things.
Speaker 1:Not like several, we're talking like seven, eight, ten.
Speaker 3:Eight to ten children and they nailed it on like they were homeschooling them or they were killing it on devotionals and their kids were all what's the word Catechized?
Speaker 2:They knew all the catechisms.
Speaker 3:They had everything nailed and perfect, and then they have. We have watched them launch their first, like four children, and just watched such heartbreak and such disappointment. And it has been painful to watch because you see them, you see their heart, you see their love for their kids. And then you see, okay, well, something went majorly wrong, like there's something majorly struggling in this setup. And I've watched them kind of like, okay, you see, okay, well, something went majorly wrong, like there's something majorly struggling in this setup. And I've watched them kind of like, okay, you know, kind of admit mindsets that maybe were off or motives that were off, and I've watched them kind of speak to like God is still faithful to them, god is still healing their family, he's still doing a work in them. But, man, it's been the most sobering realization for me to to realize like, okay, like I can't have faith, I can't have hope in my efforts for an outcome that is like that is that is going to leave me really sad.
Speaker 3:I think one of the things we've learned is just like with special with our kids, cause you love them so much is like we could do everything right, but they could still go way off the beaten path, and so almost we almost the they could still go way off the beaten path and so almost we right Almost the point where we sort of expect that which is really bad, like I think what we learned is like you can do all the things that you want to do and and do better than we're even gonna do.
Speaker 1:But that doesn't make God bad. It doesn't. He's faithful.
Speaker 4:I think another example of this, this morality kind of deal is is is like how I view you know, druggies, actual real, like needle in the arm druggies, you know, like this whole I am, you know, superior to you, you know, and and uh, just it would be like basically any anybody in your life that walks across your life. Maybe it's a homeless guy, you don't even know, and you, you like you put your nose up to them.
Speaker 4:You know that kind of thing and I think, on a day-to-day basis. How often do we kind of do that?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think that's where you gotta say there. But for the grace of god, go I right, um. So so, nick, you asked a question last night, um, where you really got to. The question was like why do bad things happen in the first place? Do you remember the question you asked? That I thought was really good.
Speaker 4:I asked you without the devil, is there sin?
Speaker 1:Right, yes, yeah, and I'd say there's still a potential. I think that was a great question Because the suffering came from, because Satan brought on what God had said like let's throw some trials in without Satan, and I don't know if we could answer that. But there is the potential for sin because they had free will. Adam and Eve had free will.
Speaker 4:Well, yeah, they did have free will to eat. The only thing they didn't have to do was eat an apple, and Satan comes in there as a snake and it's like hey, eve ladies hey eve you should definitely eat this, and he was like you know what? That's a great idea, yeah and then she goes.
Speaker 3:He comes to her saying you can be smarter than god. You can have insight beyond god, it wasn't just the food it was, it was the power he came to the woman, offering a power which also would have been a security that she realized in that moment of temptation that she maybe didn't have I'm just saying.
Speaker 4:We're all living in a garden. The only rule is don't eat an apple, right and that, and that's the one rule. I'm sorry, ladies, but you couldn't follow yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, nobody, but I really do think that it speaks to like they were safe in the garden, they were God, like they were perfectly secure but, Satan came in with a temptation suggesting the garden that you're in this garden and it's not really that good.
Speaker 3:Right, it's the. There's something better than this garden and there's some things you don't know, that you could maybe find out about, which, to me, that speaks to a woman's desire to feel safe. Which which, when we don't we, that leads us to control right. That's our big issue, and so I think that he was showing up and, like, all he did was introduce the thought that maybe she's not so completely secure here and that she might need to employ some control.
Speaker 4:And as women.
Speaker 3:I feel this way, like all we have to be given is a suggestion that we might not be safe and we'll maybe run with it.
Speaker 4:Well then we got a question, adam, because he's supposedly head of you know humanity at this time.
Speaker 1:And remember when in charge, be in charge.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, and he didn't enforce that one rule.
Speaker 4:Yeah and the one rule, and he's just like oh yeah, you know, this is a great idea.
Speaker 1:So she takes it by and he's like all right, I guess nothing happened. So I think that's where he gave up rule over the earth. So it used to be. Before satan fell, the, the humanity was in charge of the animals. In other words, hey snake beat it right, so that was completely. He was a it's called a co-regent, like a ruler alongside god, and technically we still are ruling alongside god. The earth, like that, is our domain. However, when he gave in to Satan, he put Satan in charge. Satan is now the prince in power of the air, like he rules the earth, because we gave up that authority. Here you go, I'll believe you over.
Speaker 4:God. And we ask the question why do bad things happen to good people? Well, there you go, there you go.
Speaker 1:When Adam gave up the authority, he gave up a lot for the rest of humanity, which is now. Everyone's now a slave to sin, and we cannot free ourselves apart from God's redeeming grace. So that's why the story, that's why we sing the songs, because we're lost, now we're found.
Speaker 4:I argue that there is no sin without Satan. However, god knew everything that was going to happen and and this has to happen, so that you know revelation happens and then we all end up in heaven and God.
Speaker 3:There's something Leah and I talked about, I will. She's like Leah and I talk through accountability things often and she has suggested to me before. It's nothing that revolutionary. I just it was through her that I heard it. It was that are there's like three, three things that can kind of lead us into sin. It's our, it's like temptation, our flesh, our flesh, our pride.
Speaker 1:So our pride, satan, that's a pride of life.
Speaker 3:Lust of the flesh.
Speaker 3:Lust of the it was our flesh and then it was like actual Satan and then there was a third one. It's like sometimes it's actually Satan. That is like because my, our whole, my whole argument was everyone often is like, well, satan's just Satan's just trying to get me to say I'm like a lot of time it's like this is a flesh issue that you're talking about. You're like your flesh is desiring this thing, like Satan might actually like not be super involved right now. It's like your flesh is super involved right now.
Speaker 1:The lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life. Those are the three biggies. Satan gets into pride right. Pride comes when he says what God gave you is not enough. That's the classic Satan thing. Lust is, I want to. I want to feel the comfort or pleasure of whatever that thing is and I want to have it. So the pride of life comes in when Satan gets in and says, like you know what you, you deserve this.
Speaker 2:And then in Job it was clearly Satan, because that's the whole point of the book, that Satan was like I'm going to do all this, and God says you can do all of it, just don't kill him, right?
Speaker 1:So yeah, all right. So, um, all right. I think that kind of brings us to a wrap, uh about the suffering.
Speaker 2:I liked the part where you talked about you know the suffering is going through something hard and not knowing the outcome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the only way you can actually suffer. Yeah, because anything else is if you knew the outcome. So, for example, to say you're suffering to get your college degree, I would say that's not really. You're paying the price for the degree, you value the degree that much so you're putting in the effort to get it, so it's. That is not suffering. Suffering is when you don't know how it's all going to end up, even like I don't know, you're in a, you're working long hours, but you know you're going to get paid. That's not suffering.
Speaker 1:Suffering is like I have this disease. I have no idea how it got here or why it's, or maybe even if you do know, but I don't have an end in sight and it may not end in good, and it looks like I could die. If you are a Christian, even in that that moment you go. Well, the good part of this is I will be in heaven with Jesus forever. Hallelujah. And you sing the songs because you're reminded of the goodness of God.
Speaker 1:If you do not have God, then your suffering has no point, and so, therefore, there is no happy ending. And so therefore, curse God and die seems to be like an apt, fitting response, because there is no hope for you. And that's why a lot of people in their struggle, when they're dealing with the darkness, when they're dealing with the pain and it's real pain and there is no like I'm suffering for a purpose, or you know, I'm going to do lift weights so I can get stronger, or I'm going to spend the time so I can raise my kid right. That's its own reward. The problem is when it doesn't have a reward at the end that's real, genuine suffering and it feels so painful. And I think that's why we need to recognize there is a lot of people who don't have Christ and that's why our sharing of Jesus needs to be a little bit urgent, because people need to know about the reality of who Jesus is. Anyway, I don't know if that's where you're going with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that really stood out to me because, you know, that is why we should be sharing our stories and why we should be talking especially to non-believers, that we are in these struggles and I would say I'm suffering right now my job search now. In theory, I will find a job.
Speaker 1:But you don't know the answer, but I don't know when and I don't know how and I don't know where, when you don't know when that is genuine.
Speaker 2:And that's you know and even I'm suffering, suffering my, singleness.
Speaker 1:I love how you're holding on to the promises you do know, yeah, which that you know, for example, romans 8, 20,. All things work for the good of those who love and are called according to his purpose, and when you can live in that, you've got to believe. And this is what's really hard for immature Christians is that what God has planned is better than what I have planned. God can do with his promise and me trusting it more than I can do with me figuring out a way to make it work for me. Yeah, and that's hard.
Speaker 4:I would say since, since coming in, you know, to my walk with Christ, that is gotten way easier to go through these things. How so? Well, so let's just go with relationships at first. Right, I'm single now, two divorces. Relationships at first, like I'm single now, two divorces right old me. You would have been like this is horrible, I'm gonna end up alone. Right now I'm like I might end up alone. Right, it's not, it's not the end of the world to me right, um, and then of my own.
Speaker 4:Like you know, I tried to start my own company and that didn't work out very good. And now now, like it's been almost a year since I've had a job, but this whole time I've like and it it is a suffering. I'm not going to say it's not.
Speaker 1:Well, you don't know. You don't know the end point.
Speaker 4:Right, you don't know the end point, you don't know the why, and it really does like some months. You're like, uh, are we gonna make it, you know, to the end of the month, and but as there's like a peace while this is all going on, which is strange, like like I know, at the end of this it's gonna be fine yeah, I feel like machine gun nick of old would have been erratic, frantic, just doing stuff and a mess Probably.
Speaker 1:And it's exciting to see the transformation in your life because it's really genuine and powerful that God's working in you.
Speaker 2:So, and when I was praying about this and kind of preparing to come in and chat with y'all, you know, god really kind of gave me some thoughts about there's purpose and believer suffering and I kind of wrote a few things down. Can I share those, okay? So, god, what do you want me to learn from this God? How is this shaping my eternal?
Speaker 1:character. Let's go on that first one. God, what do you want me to learn from this? That is the question when you're in suffering. It's a biblical question James 1 5. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask of God who gives justice to it all. In other words, when you're suffering, you go, god, why am I going through this? What is the purpose? You're allowed to ask that question and God did respond to Job and Job repented. I think sometimes we have his word and we read it and we're like what else you got? And so I think God is sharing with us what our purpose, in whatever struggle we're facing, is. So I love that, yeah.
Speaker 2:First one. So the second one was how is this shaping my eternal character? Oh man as a believer. You know you may not have great, you know results here, but God has a purpose for that.
Speaker 1:Well, again, that's back to the promise. All things work for the good of those who love and are called according to his purpose. That's Romans 8, 28.
Speaker 2:How can this point other people to you and your goodness?
Speaker 1:Oh man.
Speaker 2:We're pointing, and I can trust God that my suffering is never pointless. Yep.
Speaker 1:That's that there is a point to your suffering. And again, the cosmic battle like even and this is where I think non-believers say well, that makes God look like a megalomaniac who just needs his ego stroked in heaven. That's not, I trust God. He is good and I trust God that, even if that was what he was doing that ultimately, because he wins, I win, and I think that's the thing that we need to wrap our head around is because he is God and he is the one that's in charge that our, our whole hope is connected to his good, and so leaning into trusting him is huge for us. That's why Proverbs 3, 5 and 6, trust in the Lord with all your heart. Lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge him. He will direct your path.
Speaker 2:And I can draw near to God and he will draw near to me.
Speaker 1:You talked about that James 4, love that one.
Speaker 2:Sunday morning and God will turn my sadness to joy, my mourning to laughing, and he will give me beauty for ashes.
Speaker 1:Man Amen Come on.
Speaker 2:And then I know God can take my worst situation and use it for good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's the question that. Do you believe that, I think, when you're a person watching this podcast, listening to this podcast, do you believe that God can take your worst situation and make it for his glory and your good? I think that is the question and, of course, the answer is yes.
Speaker 2:It's just do you believe it? And then the last thing God's plan for my life includes suffering and it includes a relationship with him and, as every believer, we're going to have every person on this earth is going to have suffering.
Speaker 1:Like every Christian will endure some sort of persecution or suffering, and it seems like in America it seems really limited. But to be fair, there are more martyrs today in the last 150 years than the entire time of Christ, from zero to 150 years ago.
Speaker 2:And when you're talking about timing, I actually dug into Job about a month ago, right when this happened, which of course my mother's like. That's not a coincidence that you're in Job and you know your job went away. But as I was digging into it, you know I started thinking about how long did Job suffer, because the only time period that is told to us in Job is it says he had 140 years of blessing after this, and we're not exactly sure. So I looked on the Google and tried to figure out. They think Job was probably about 70 when it happened and it was probably two months to two years of his suffering. They don't know exactly how long, but I needed to kind of also think about that, that this period of testing when compared to Job's whole life was just a moment in his life.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but you remember. So how far from Adam and Eve is Job? Probably a while, but he's still living over 200 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fair, that's right. I mean he's probably before Abraham, though.
Speaker 2:Around. I think it said they're around the same time as Abraham.
Speaker 1:I mean, abraham was like 180, I think, or something, when he died. Yeah.
Speaker 4:This whole making it to 80 thing. Imagine what I could do if I had like a hundred plus years on this earth.
Speaker 1:That's a lot of guns to shoot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is All right.
Speaker 1:Hey, any other thoughts?
Speaker 3:I have one more thought that I wanted to share before we're done. So the sermon story that you shared is about the girl who you lost, one of your soldiers in combat, and he was a really great guy who was a really good father and a good husband, and his death caused a really less responsible, less put together individual who was headed for disaster. It kind of caused him to repent and turn his life to Christ.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was wild.
Speaker 3:He was an atheist who became a Christian, and yes, and so, um, that story was powerful to me because it feels really unjust that the great guy right, Going back to our morality view the guy that did everything great.
Speaker 3:The guy that was loving his family while loving his wife well, had been responsible, like he was one that God took his life and it caused pain on his family and his wife and his kids, and it was and it was his kids were very young at the time and, um, and that's just a hard story Like stories like that are hard sometimes to reconcile and you just have to say, god, I trust you, I believe that you're going to be for this family what they have lost. And but what's cool to me is in your sermon you shared about how one time you were back in our year of traveling- and speaking for I Am.
Speaker 3:Second, you had a speaking opportunity in Oklahoma that was pretty random and pretty small. It wasn't at the time we were. You were speaking to pretty large gatherings of students, and so this was an abnormal one.
Speaker 1:It was like 20 or 30 or so it was. I can't remember exact numbers, but it wasn't big yeah.
Speaker 3:And it was, and because it had been small, you were a little more involved with the actual students than typical, and so this girl comes up to you at the end of your talk where you told you used an illustration sharing the story of this Sergeant Gibbs that had died.
Speaker 1:And gibbs that had died and and it turns out it's his daughter in the audience. It was wild. I mean, imagine I'm speaking, this little group and I talk about sergeant gibbs and how sergeant kish got saved through this and I I didn't mention the focus wasn't on sergeant gibbs, just had to be the guy's name. And then I went, the focus of the story was on sergeant kish and then this girl goes up. You know I think she said her name something Gibbs and I was like I was floored and I realized she's at this retreat, loving God, pursuing God, not mad at God, but definitely had questions and this brought her closure. I mean, when you think about like when you're, she was probably like eight.
Speaker 3:So she came up to you at the end of the top. I'm so-and-so Gibbs. I'm I'm Sergeant Gibbs' daughter.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it was wild. I mean that thought was like here she is with not having closure she's. I never knew how he died. I didn't know how any of this happened. All I knew was a story about a bomb and that's it. And now to hear the full story and how he had people that loved him and that somebody came to Christ through that and it allowed her faith to flourish. It was. It was powerful. I think she was probably 14 or 15.
Speaker 3:She told you I had so many questions were answered and to me what was so significant about that is you take a girl whose dad died at eight and you would not assume that she'd be in kind of a humble Christian setting, still trying to seek God and pursue him.
Speaker 1:Just show what amazing mom she had too.
Speaker 3:Right, but also showing the faithfulness of God that, like God, had not allowed her to wander off and he had brought her specifically to this place to hear the fruition of her father's life and answers, and I think that that is where, when we lean into God, it's sometimes I think it's a mental and emotional comfort that gets us through that day.
Speaker 3:But I think sometimes he's orchestrating a way bigger picture that we're going to see and we're going to be. It's going to be far better than what we could have orchestrated or imagined him orchestrating. And so there's that you hold on to a hope, not in your own efforts and in your own getting it right, but in your brokenness of leaning into God the best that you can. I guarantee you she didn't have a perfect track record of 10 years of always doing it perfectly, but she did. But God still brought her that day to hear you, and so I think that that is like to me. That's so powerful. It shows you that God's love and provision is just so much greater, and he's orchestrating really, really small details out to help grow our intimacy with him and to bring him glory.
Speaker 1:That's good. Wow, I think we can wrap that up on that point. Thank you for that, for reminding me that I totally forgotten about that story. And it was wild as I was preparing the message, like I haven't told that story ever in a sermon like anywhere, and it kind of hit me as I was thinking through different people in the army and then it like, oh, on the flip side of Sergeant Gibbs was an entire family that we got to minister to, not like the whole focus was always on this guy coming to Christ, not necessarily on his daughter being God, giving her closure and faithfulness to love her well. So that was just exciting for me.
Speaker 4:I think that would be a podcast topic for another time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4:I got a few nothing like that but I have a few of those stories where, like, this guy is great, one of the best people not even just best soldier, one of the best people you know and that he's the one that doesn't make it back Right, and we could. We could probably spend an hour talking on that.
Speaker 1:Well, hey, thanks so much for watching. If you got questions, I would love for you to text us 737-231-0605. Or go to PastorPleckcom. We'd love to hear from you. We talk faith, culture and everything in between, and so thank you so much for watching From our house to yours. Have an awesome week. God bless you.