Defining Christian Masculinity

293: Catie Sas joins Pastor Plek on the podcast this week to recap the second sermon in our Explore God series. Their discussion turns from a sermon recap to a discussion on Biblical Masculinity and godly leadership.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:03

And welcome back to Pastor Plex podcast. I'm your host, pastor Plex, so glad all of you are joining us as we talk faith culture. Everything in between and with me back in studio is none other than Mrs Katie Sass. Katie, welcome back. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 0:16

Man, it is so good yeah it's so good to see you.

Speaker 1 0:19

Can you all right? There's a couple of things you know. It's been a while and I think that some people have been tracking with you for a while on our, uh, justin and Amber story. Can we, can we continue that story, because I met Justin and Amber?

Speaker 2 0:31

at the.

Speaker 1 0:32

Easter egg hunt, and that was wild. So tell me, tell me about how all that came to be and what's been going on recently.

Speaker 2 0:37

So I finally got them to agree to come to a church event. Um, that wasn't at a church, Uh. But they, just like for a long time, didn't really want to come to anything that our church was putting on.

Speaker 1 0:48

Right, because it wasn't relevant Right.

Speaker 2 0:50

Yeah, and then you know anyways, so they finally come to the Easter egg hunt. And their son is about he just turned one and I was so excited, Like literally they she agreed to it and I'm texting everybody like Amber and Justin are coming to the Easter egg hunt. Like I can't believe it.

Speaker 2 1:11

I'm so excited Like it's been like two years of waiting to have them at something that, like, is one relevant for their life stage, because for a long time they were in mourning and so of course they're not going to want to come to something that's for kids, um, and it's just been a long time they were in mourning and so of course they're not going to want to come to something that's for kids and it's just been a long road. So they come to the Easter egg hunt and I introduced them to you just, and then, after Justin talked to you for a little bit, we're standing over by the blue bonnets and he goes. I said you know that was my pastor and he goes. Oh really, I know that was my pastor and he goes. Oh really, I was like yeah, uh, he like I've told him all about y'all from the podcast and everything like that, and he goes. He was a really cool guy. I really liked him and I was like that's great, like I'm so, I'm so glad.

Speaker 1 1:59

Oh, that's fun, Okay, and then and then he said he might check us out.

Speaker 2 2:04

Yeah, so I. This past weekend I went to their son's birthday party. Their son's name is Porter. Yeah, and definitely a rainbow baby. Oh, and he.

Speaker 1 2:16

What does rainbow baby mean?

Speaker 2 2:17

So a baby after loss. So you know, they lost Gunner and then they also had a miscarriage after Gunner, and so Porter is like pretty much baby number three. Um, and so I go to the birthday party and I'm not thinking they're going to visit at all, like I'm, like we're, we're still a long way out. Like they just came to the Easter egg hunt. Um, it's I'm, we're, we're still a long way out. Like they just came to the easter egg hunt. Um, it's I'm, I've still got some work to do.

Speaker 2 2:48

And like Ryan, like it's so hard for Ryan to be friends with anyone, like not, no, not, it's like because of his schedule, I mean, he's not, he's not like the most outgoing person ever like at all yeah, um, but like he just has no time for new friends right now, and so we've we've heavily talked about this before but, um, uh, oh my gosh, justin walked over to me and he's like hey, so I'm thinking like we're gonna, we'd love to check out your church and my like like when I say my mind was blown and my heart literally fell out of my whole body, I was like, really, and I looked at him and I, immediately in my head, I'm like, I'm like, don't be weird, don't be weird, play it cool, play it cool, just be cool, don't scare him away. And I was like, oh my gosh, like you just made my whole week. Like that's I'm. I love that, I'm so excited.

Speaker 2 3:50

And, um, because I can't hide all of my excitement, you know, I couldn't just be like a brick wall, like, oh, okay cool, yeah, cool, yeah no big deal, yeah, and so, um, he's like, yeah, I just I was so like I just was kind of blown away by how nice everybody was at the Easter. I kind of like everybody that we talked to was, they were just so nice and I'm like I don't know if he was thinking that he was going to come to this event with a bunch of church people and that they were going to be mean Like I don't know what he was expecting.

Speaker 2 4:22

But he just was so blown away by how kind everyone seemed and I was like great, Like I'm so, I'm so glad, and he's like so, yeah, I think I'll like come to, we'll come visit, and so I'm hoping they'll come this Sunday or just whenever. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 4:40

Well, we're in a series called Explore God yeah, so, um, well, we're in a series called explore God yeah, perfect, it seems like it would be a perfect thing of like. You know, we've been going through wiser pain, suffering. Is the Bible reliable, as we just talked about in this next week, where Mo pastor Mo's gonna be talking about, is Christianity too narrow and, uh, sometimes there's like fear and intrepidation, a little bit like when new people come and you're talking about you're talking directly to new people.

Speaker 2 5:09

It's like this is for you, uh, and so I'm so excited about that. Um, yeah, so please let me know. I mean I know like there've been a lot of people that have listened to this story, like from the beginning, and so I like, if you want to meet them, if you like, literally, please tell me, just text me and say, hey, introduce me to Amber and Justin, I want to meet them.

Speaker 1 5:27

Yeah, just text me and say, hey, introduce me to Amber and Justin, I want to meet them. Yeah, like, I'm happy to, like, I want them to meet as many people as they can. I just think of people who, uh, are, have experienced loss, and especially with babies, that would be. That might be a perfect spot for them to just connect. Um, because the web of relationship is what really builds an evangelistic. Um, you know, like, hey, I really love you and want to know you, but I can't be the sole person. That's your only friend and I'm, and you've been, so generous and loving, and it could be like, oh well, you're the anomaly. All the rest of the Christians are judgmental and jerks, but you're like, you know, somehow you got in. Uh, but if everybody sort of has an experience with them, that's like loving and powerful, and then, uh, we get to share the gospel. How awesome is that? Okay, well, that that is exciting. Uh, so thanks for sharing that. I mean, this really has been a a several year journey.

Speaker 2 6:13

What it's felt like it it's been like two, two or three years, yeah, I think maybe three.

Speaker 1 6:17

Yeah, honestly, because you know the peanut app and I remember us first talking about that and it was so, and the first day you met her gosh, I.

Speaker 2 6:26

I met them, so we started hanging out when Ava was like 15 months old and she's gonna be four in June wow yeah, because her, supporter or not, porter Gunner died when he was 17 months old and we'd only known each other for about three months when that happened and so, but I have, like, if it wasn't for God just laying it on my heart that like he wants me to be friends with her, then I don't know that it would have continued.

Speaker 2 7:02

I mean, I just continued to pursue her because that was the Holy Spirit's prompting Like and I I obviously really like her, like I genuinely care about her and she's not a project, um, but it's like with everything going on and with, like how busy life can be and how it's like you already have your friends, your, your, your friends that get you and your faith, like and so making time for for friends that don't have kids, cause for a long time it was really hard for us to hang out because she didn't have a kid or her kid died.

Speaker 2 7:34

And so like making time to hang out with her outside of motherhood was so hard, was a challenge, and so I'm just thankful that God is like. It's like, oh, I feel so much momentum now because God's like here. They're coming to that Like keep going, like I'm working, I'm doing something.

Speaker 1 7:54

I can't get over how awesome that is. I'm so encouraged by that and it just shows that the faithfulness. If I could take that sort of faithfulness and put it in every person, just go for one person over time, that's genuine friendship, that's genuine relationship and it's really, really powerful. So, man, thanks for thanks for being just what an example of a woman of God is and what a real friend is with someone who doesn't know Jesus. So that's, it's powerful for me.

Speaker 1 8:21

Which then takes us to this past week, as we're talking about challenging people to explore God, um, uh, we were answering the question is the Bible reliable? And uh, the first sort of thought that sort of comes up with that is um, where I went with this is that I think a lot of people are turned off by people of the book um, because of second Timothy chapter, verses 1-9. And if you're not familiar with 2 Timothy 3, 1-9, let me read it to you. I don't want to say it's funny, but it's kind of funny, because this is where Paul is writing to Timothy saying hey, check it out, you're pastoring this church and in the last days it's going to be wild, but understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty for people, and you're wondering who these people are, for people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not living good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of God rather than lovers, rather, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance. Okay, right there, I'm gonna stop right there, cause he's then going to say avoid such people. So he can't second Timothy three. So he can't possibly be talking about Christian, sorry, about non-believers, because in a first Corinthians five he said listen, I'm not saying don't judge the people outside the church, I'm talking about judge people inside the church. He's saying these are the people that are inside the church. So if you've ever had church hurt, well, duh, the people in the church are slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, soulless. Lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, saying that they're a Christian or whatever, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Speaker 1 10:08

And that is where I feel like a lot of people who don't trust the Bible, because what they can see, bible people aren't acting like Christians. And again, they may not be real Christians, it might be just people who stole the label. There's a cultural Christianity for some period of time. Maybe they grew up that way, but they abandoned the gospel, or they never accepted the gospel, but they like you know maybe the structure or whatever the community, and so they make Jesus look bad and therefore not trust his word, which is why them people and I think this is a word that's come up a lot, in fact up my quiet time this morning the patriarchy. When I say patriarchy, does that give you a weird feeling. Are you okay with that word?

Speaker 2 10:50

no, I know some people use it to like insult people, like insult men or like uh, like it's been used like I think taylor swift is probably the most famous.

Speaker 1 11:00

It's just I, I'm a christian, but the patriarchy, uh, of saying she's not a christian right, she said that, though, like in one of her, one of her tv show, with when she's, you know, crying at her parents terrible. So she said she would that's a good example. Like she would be a person that would probably fall into this lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of god. I want people to love me, I want people to like me. I've me, I've got a business to run, I got a thing to do, and so what happens is, when you have an appearance of godliness, you're throwing the name of a Christian around, but you deny its power.

Speaker 1 11:34

So what you're saying, and the reason that people don't like the patriarch, is have men abuse their power? Sure, but it's you know. Have the police abuse their policeness? Sure, but do you throw out the police? We've seen how that goes. Yeah, when you throw out protection, when you throw out like enforcing of law, it leads to a society that goes like complete anarchy. And I think in San Francisco, like literally this time, I think the police force is so low that people just walking out of like cvs or whatever, and they just steal stuff wholesale and there's just that's just what you do and that that can last for a season, but eventually that whole culture will implode because they've lost law and order. Okay, in the same way, god designed men to lead and uh. And when I say men to rule, rule and lead mean the same thing, but when I think people hear rule, they go, oh, no, oppression, uh. And I think partly it's because we're American and we we're, we've been taught from beginning of time to rant. Tyranny is bad and it is.

Speaker 1 12:35

Tyranny is bad, but I think what can happen. Maybe you can speak into this as someone that maybe has seen poor male leadership in your life, through your entire life. What can happen when men abuse that? It can be like it can freak you out. Would you agree with that? Any any things you can share about that specifically?

Speaker 2 12:54

Um, I just think about your three P's that you've talked about before.

Speaker 1 12:58

I don't know if there were four, but uh provide, uh pursue. Yeah, wow, nice.

Speaker 2 13:03

And so I mean, that's what I think of every time. I think of, like, what does godly leadership look like in the home? Protect, provide, pursue. And so I think men there are obviously men who have fallen from that and don't shoot for that, but the men that are it's almost like the men that are providing, protecting and pursuing are being like thrown into this club that they are not a part of, just because they're men and because a lot of women have been so hurt by men that it's like let's just, we're just going to see all men as trash Like.

Speaker 2 13:43

I can't even imagine what a man looks like who provides for his family, who protects his family and who pursues his family. Like that's, like that doesn't exist to a lot of women.

Speaker 1 13:54

So it's hard, it's hard to know, and I think for that reason, a lot of people delay marriage for a long time because they've never, they don't know what a good marriage looks like. They and I may have been in that category, I think, in my twenties. If I and I mentioned this on Sunday, like when I read second Timothy three in my twenties I was like, oh my gosh, is that me? Like, am I the person that people should avoid Because I just had uncontrollable lust or uncontrolled need of approval? I need, I need a girl, not necessarily to have sex with, but I need you to like me. I need, I need you to to want to be with me, and as long as I know I have that sort of controller power or whatever, I can feel okay with myself. I love you, jesus, but I still need this an emotional, uh crutch type thing. And it took, uh, really, I mean it took a while for me to get into my thirties, realizing that how broken I was. And then, um, with Adrian, I married my best friend, which I'm really so grateful for her, and she, as a best friend, iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another. She has really sharpened me through calling out my insecurities and early in our marriage. Uh, she could say she would. She would point out like I think you're enjoying that attention too much or you're enjoying the fact that the girl that you're ministering to is enjoying the intention too much. And so I didn't.

Speaker 1 15:13

A lot of that I didn't realize, because I didn't. To be fair, I just didn't. I didn't see, like my parents early on were awesome and had a great connection, but in my teenage years they lived in different states and it was just challenging. And then they got divorced and it was sort of a weird deal. So I didn't have a good picture of pursue, provide, protect. I didn't have a picture of that. And so I think what happened? I got out of the relationship with women, whether a friend or dating person or girlfriend or whatever what I could get out of it and I think that I became what exactly Paul is writing to Timothy about and I think that's that repentance I needed in my heart. Took a while for me to see it because I was self-deceived for so long. Yeah, just kind of how. That doesn't mean it wasn't my fault and I wasn't, but I just didn't know.

Speaker 2 16:00

But at the same time, you are also striving to like, provide, protect and pursue.

Speaker 1 16:05

And so I think like so, thank God, marriage transformed a lot of that, and before marriage a lot. But I think that's where I think men struggle in general is they don't know what a picture looks like. So I think I think, yeah, provide, protect, pursue is what God's word calls us to. It's not perfect.

Speaker 2 16:20

I mean, ryan is a great provider, protector, pursuer. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have his own struggles, right, and so, yeah, I just think, like anyways, I feel like I could talk forever about it, but we have other things to talk about no, no, this is, this is what we.

Speaker 1 16:36

This is. This is appropriate. You can keep going. Is there something specific you were thinking of?

Trustworthiness of Biblical Manuscripts

Speaker 2 16:40

well, no, I'm saying. I think women wait for this picture of like if the second they see a flaw, or the second they see that the guy struggles with something or it's like, oh, well.

Speaker 2 16:53

I just like he's probably not, but I mean Rod and I walked through some like deep struggles, yeah, and for I mean there were times where we'd end a fight and I would think I hate, like I don't, why did we get married like this was, this is awful, like he's, and I would. I would immediately label a mistake he made as he's a poor provider.

Speaker 2 17:16

He's a poor uh, he's a poor protector nice and like, wherever I was, I would just like he's. He's not doing his job right. It's like you, your husband's not perfect. Like there's no man, that's perfect. Like there's no man, that's like never gonna raise his voice. There's no man, that's. I mean. It's kind of funny whenever I hear girls say like my husband has never raised his voice at me. I'm'm like really. Like never, you know like.

Speaker 1 17:49

So it's dating, marriage counseling Is that what you're thinking?

Speaker 2 17:56

I'm just like, are you sure? Like I was talking to a friend at work and she's like, yeah, we have we never fought before until we started re-engage like at at our church, like they just decided to take a re-engage class, yeah, and she's like we used to never fight. We had never gone in a fight before and then we started doing this marriage class and then we started having these huge fights and I'm like I probably needed to have it.

Speaker 1 18:19

Oh for sure. Well, that's what I always say, Like, remember, there's three types of couples. There's the Italian couple, who pursue conflict. There's a Victorian couple that like do not do conflict at all and if it comes up they just stuff it or whatever. And then there's the American couple that's like one person's pursuing the person's like I'm out, and I think in that circumstance there's probably a Victorian couple that all of a sudden was forced because like face things.

Speaker 1 18:41

Yeah, exactly, yeah, all right. Yeah, I think that's good, all right. So that was sort of point. One was Timothy was to avoid unreliable people trying to appear godly. The second thing we talked about is God's word is reliable for salvation. Specifically, the sacred writings which Paul wrote are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. And when I talked about this I was like listen, I know. Like how do you know that you can get saved? I mean, how do we even know what what was written is actually in was what they actually wrote? And I think that's what's hard about ancient manuscripts, especially when we're talking about 2000 years old. Uh, how can we trust what we have is what actually was written? Is that something that, for you, you ever wrestled with? Really no, and and why do you think that is Cause? I think this is, I think, the reason if you answer, I'd love to hear your answer on this because I think it will. It's telling about the culture.

Speaker 2 19:31

Ask me more direct.

Speaker 1 19:33

So did you ever doubt when you read the Bible? It was. What we have now is what was written then.

Speaker 2 19:40

No.

Speaker 1 19:41

And why did? Why did that thought never come up to you?

Speaker 2 19:44

I don't know, I just took it for what it is Okay. I don't know, I just took it for what it is Okay.

Speaker 1 19:48

So I, because God's word is powerful on its own. It doesn't need any um. Hey, here are the other um, it doesn't need to be edited. It doesn't need to be edited. It doesn't need to be like, uh, lifted up somehow, like puffed up. We got like, listen, you gotta believe this, because I promise you it doesn't need it, because it's truth on its own. We should be judging ourselves, and I think this is why I love this. I think what you did when you read the Bible is you read the Bible and you go, oh, it's saying to me that I'm not what it should be. I need to change, as opposed to, I think, what people do when they have opinion about it, like it's not reliable. Because I am offended by this, I want the Bible to change, or maybe it got changed to control me, because I don't like what it says.

Speaker 2 20:32

Yeah, and a lot of that is the Holy Spirit. I mean, we are flesh like. If the Holy Spirit is not working in us, then of course we're going to read the Bible and be like, oh, it needs to change, because I don't want to change. The Holy Spirit is what makes us want to change. The Holy Spirit convicts us, and so if you are sensitive to the Holy Spirit, then you're going to read the Bible and you're going to go, oh, I kind of suck.

Speaker 1 20:54

Right.

Speaker 2 20:56

Like there's some work I got to do so.

Speaker 1 20:57

There's stuff in here that would offend different cultures. For example, I don't think anyone has a problem with husbands love your wives, like Christ loved the church and gave himself up, sacrificed himself for it. I think there are some men that would. Well, I think for the most part our culture goes yeah, that's what men should be doing, right, like like lay down the wife, you need to lay down for your wife. I think that that's kind of like. In fact, why do I not agree with that? Okay, well, I just from a man's perspective. I think men are told to be passive and I think people in general think that that's like a passive thing to do, to lay your life down whatever she wants, and they read it like that and they're not offended. Feminists would say absolutely. I'm not talking from a Christian like you love Jesus perspective, I'm talking from a world perspective that that's not offensive to the culture.

Speaker 2 21:45

Okay, okay, oh, now I see what you're saying so, um.

Speaker 1 21:49

But if I were to say the flip side of that wives, submit to your husbands right now. In this culture, people lose their minds all over the place. Now let's go back.

Speaker 2 21:59

Uh, there are Christians that lose their mind.

Speaker 1 22:02

Absolutely. But let's go 50 years ago. 50 years ago, husbands love your wives and sacrifice. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's extreme, that's extreme. But wives submit to your husbands. Everyone be like yeah, what else I mean? Maybe let's go 80 years ago. 80 years ago people would be like, yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 22:19

What are they? What else are they going to do?

Speaker 1 22:21

Right. So I think that because culture changes then and all of a sudden we get, we're surprised that we're offended because we're raised in a different culture with different norms, but the Bible never changes. I think that's the part that I think has become so powerful is the Bible doesn't change.

Speaker 2 22:38

It is always applicable.

Speaker 1 22:39

Right, and so one of the things I brought up is, like all the different manuscripts and all the things, that there's not even a close second, um, when it comes to Bible authenticity, the New Testament. There's over 5,600 copies of ancient manuscripts and the earliest one we have is from within 100 years of the initial writing. Homer's Iliad, which is the closest second of all ancient manuscripts, has 643 copies and the earliest, like the, the youngest time span is 500 years. So that, to me, shows how powerful, like, there isn't a close second, the goat of ancient manuscripts, which is just greatest of all time for you non-sports people, is the new testament. Nobody even comes close, um, so you can trust what the Bible says. Now is what the Bible says then. So don't make your uh, if your resistance to Christianity is like we can't know what's what the Bible said, no, no, you can't. You can know and we have. It's not like you need to worry about. It was translated from the Greek to the Latin, to the blah, blah. We can go read the Greek and the Hebrew know what it says, translate it perfectly.

Speaker 1 23:51

No scholar is sitting there going like I don't know if this is what was written. They know what's written, they just don't think it's true, and that's fine. And the reason why they don't think it's true, they can believe all of Tacitus, whereas the New Testament has like 5,600 copies. There's two copies of Tassus' Annals, which is the history from 8 AD to 68 AD roughly, of Rome. Nobody is even touching, they're not going. Oh, that's not true, they're just they look at that as truth.

Speaker 1 24:19

And the reason why is there's no miracles. The reason why people dispute the Bible is they say I've never seen anybody healed, I've never seen the Red Sea parted or I've never seen like the storm, still by someone. Call me with their voice. So therefore it can never happen. And that's why people have such a problem with the Bible is because they can't reproduce whatever the thing is in their day-to-day life which it was a miracle. So it didn't happen every day and that's why it's a struggle for them. Anyway, is that, how does that make you feel? Or just in general, what do you think your typical non-Christian do you think they care about this stuff? The ones you run into you don't have to give me everybody, the non-Christians you run into do you think this is something they bring up as like the how old the Bible is and the telephone?

Speaker 2 25:03

I've encountered those people and I just go okay.

Speaker 1 25:08

Yeah, and I think usually it's because I don't want the Bible to have anything to say to my life. Yeah, Because if it's really the truth what they wrote, then it has impact on my me changing.

Speaker 2 25:20

Yeah, I just think people are wanting to argue and I'm not going to try to convince you that the Bible is valid.

Speaker 1 25:26

Like yeah, and one of the things we mentioned on Sunday is that there's a bunch of like uh, from the time that the church was really formed, officially canonized the scripture of three, 25 ad, from the you know about 33 ad. There's like 300 years there and for 300 years, to be a Christian, you were signing up for persecution and death and somehow it's not like. The usual argument everyone gives is like the Catholic church got the scriptures together to control people and you're like man, that's a. You have to have a lot of foresight that eventually, 300 years from now, we're going to be able to dominate the world with the controlling people's lives and we're going to. It doesn't hold water.

Speaker 2 26:05

Yeah, I just I don't care about all of that.

Speaker 1 26:12

Well, for those of you who do, you can know that it trusts. You can trust God's word because it is reliable. All right, the next one we talked about was how God's word is reliable to correct and encourage, and I showed some stats and I think I don't know if I've overshown these stats. That's the one about like the result, like results of reading the Bible four times a week or more.

Speaker 2 26:29

Oh, I don't think you can overshow yeah.

Speaker 1 26:32

I said 57,. You're getting drunk 57% less If you read the Bible four times a week or more. Sex outside of marriage 68% less. Pornography 61% less. Gambling tops it at 74% less If you read the Bible four times a week or more. All those things go down and um.

Speaker 2 26:50

I loved that it wasn't like perfect, right Like I loved that it wasn't like 95% y'all like it's like, oh, that's progress, right Like you're, you're going to make progress. Right and that's what it's all about.

Speaker 1 27:03

Absolutely and then sharing your faith with others. If you read the Bible four times a week or more, it goes up 228%. If you're discipling other people, it goes up 231%. If you read the Bible four times a week or more and memorizing scripture goes up 407%.

Speaker 2 27:18

That's the one that I was like. Oh, I'm not doing that?

Speaker 1 27:21

Well, I bet you you are and you don't know it Like. So okay, for example, can you quote to me John 3, 16?.

Speaker 2 27:27

Well, yeah, I mean what is it? That God so loved the world that he gave his only son. That whoever believes in him has eternal life.

Speaker 1 27:34

Okay, Shall not perish but have eternal life. Okay, what about? Can you name another Bible verse Just off the top of your head.

Speaker 2 27:39

See, the thing is, I can like say but I don't, I can't, I like can't remember what chapter it's in. Give me one Give me one.

Speaker 1 27:55

Think of these things that are lovely, pure. I know the gist of it. That's Philippians 4.8. So what happens the more? And you weren't trying to memorize it, but stuff comes to your head and whenever you're in need of, when you're in sorrow, the Holy Spirit can bring to mind the verses that you've memorized.

Speaker 2 28:09

So, whatever is good, whatever is excellent, the gist of the verse, I'll be like oh, oh, where is that again? And I'll go like find it.

Speaker 1 28:16

Right, that's huge.

Speaker 2 28:18

And then I want to be able to like quote the whole verse word by word. Like I remember, ages ago, me and Katie Foster memorized Romans 12 together, like the whole chapter Romans 12.

Speaker 1 28:34

Do not be conformed Do you remember anything from that?

Speaker 2 28:35

To pat on this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Yeah, yeah, and I was shocked that I, like memorized a whole chapter, but, um, yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't tell you now. Well, again.

Memorizing Scripture and Holding Biblical Values

Speaker 1 28:44

Maybe that's part of it. It's like your desire to memorize increases the more that you read the Bible and so and again when you start discipling other people, it then becomes part of your regimen of like oh, this is the verses that when I run into this situation so for example, for me in my twenties, probably because a lot of my bad decisions, but also just because I was in war and you know, in the army and doing hard things I memorized a ton of verses like on suffering, like I have them down and I would read them and I would stare at them and I would hold my Bible. Then I'd have like a little mini, little teeny Bible and I'd be in like a barrack somewhere, just like God, please help me, and I read James one.

Speaker 1 29:20

Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of any kind like, just like it would just get soaked into my soul because I needed it.

Speaker 2 29:28

Yeah.

Speaker 1 29:28

And if you don't have and the hard, the hard part of living a really comfortable life in the United States is there's no need for God's word Meaning if you don't, if you don't, if you're not intentional about it, if you're like not living it with risk, in your life there can be a little bit of you. Don't need God's word to make it, you can just scroll on Instagram.

Speaker 2 29:48

Well, it's like if you're reading God's word every day, then sometimes I'm like I just don't think of memorizing scripture. When I've like read the verses so many times, I know about 75% of it, but if you ask me which verse it is, from which chapter, like shoot, uh, I don't know.

Speaker 1 30:12

And that's fine.

Speaker 2 30:12

I again, I think memorization, the intentionality behind memorization is huge, and I think that's where you, um, I just need to be like as intentional as I am about, like, reaching the lost, I need to be intentional about memorizing Right.

Speaker 1 30:26

Well, and you do it because you, you know discipleship is going to come, because, uh, whenever you part of evangelism is saying here's what God's word has done in my life and it's powerful. And that's the part of like you don't just have the appearance of godliness, and I know, I know you don't do this, but some people can have the appearance of godliness and be like yay, church, but then deny its power Cause they don't say here's how the word of God has convicted me.

Speaker 2 30:49

Right.

Speaker 1 30:50

And I think that's where I feel like it's powerful. In fact, um, on Sunday I brought up Kaler and, um, hopefully, aaron, are you in here? Aaron, is that you over there? Maybe not All right. So, uh, I thought we had our Deacon Aaron. I thought Deacon Aaron was in here somewhere.

Speaker 1 31:08

Deacon Aaron also, uh, has struggled with homosexuality in the past, and so we were talking about homosexuality on Sunday as one of those Bible verses that people can have like itching ears to hear whatever they want to hear to suit their own passions. And so, um, I brought Kaler Ryder up and I love Kaler and he's been in our church since he was like well, he's been off and on our church since he was like 12, 14. And now that he's a man, like in his mid twenties, he has gone from being fully gay to a man engaged to another man, but because of God's word, and he knows what it says, and it's clear there isn't like I don't know about homosexuality. I think a lot of people today the big thing they do is they say listen, there is no homosexual in the Bible. The people who want to control you invented that to put their thumb and control on people, and that can't be further from the case. God has a design that we are meant for, that people should walk in, not because we want to control you, like that, like who has time for that, right? I mean like, like that seems weird to me, but if, if God has a good design, that's the best for you.

Speaker 1 32:24

I think this is the part that, um, I think sometimes, when it comes to homosexuality, we all apologize for like hey, here's our view and I'm so sorry that this is offensive and what you're wanting to do is you won't. You know, don't get mad at me and get mad at the message, but I think the reality is I need to truly believe and I do that God's design is good for you, even if it goes against how you're feeling. It's just like when I tell my kids eat the peas, they don goes against how you're feeling. It's just like when I tell my kids eat the peas. They don't want to eat the peas. But the peas are good for you and I wholeheartedly believe it. And so I enforce the peas right, because that's what a good parent does, and eventually, eventually, they'll like the peas, but isn't it true? I think for a lot of us, we've just apologized our way through a lot of talk on on our stance on cultural issues that are that the culture wants to push, push up Christians back on. Have you seen that?

Speaker 2 33:16

It's, I think, on social media it's really like it's hard to share things that, uh, that might make it look like I'm being hateful, Right, Because I do have a couple friends that I interact with on social media, like on Instagram, and I know that they don't love Jesus. Well, one of them does. One of them thinks she loves Jesus, but she's like all pro-choice, she is all about she's pro-choice and she's like for LGBTQ, Like she's, and so she posts all this stuff. But then she she told me last week when we were messaging, she's like yeah, as a Christian, I just like can't support that and I'm like what?

Speaker 1 34:05

Like you're a Christian.

Speaker 2 34:07

I mean, I wanted to respond with oh, I didn't know you were a christian, but I was like well, that might be a bit right, it reminded me I think I told the story several sermons ago of listening to talk radio, which is really, in general, really conservative.

Speaker 1 34:20

And this guy gets on there and he's like I'm 86 years old or something like that, and he's like I got a 35 year old girlfriend and he's like bragging about, he's got this young girlfriend and they're like okay, do you have like a yacht? You know what? How much money do you have? He's like, no, I'm just a normal guy, which I'm hey, maybe.

Speaker 1 34:38

Uh, and then in the, in the talk show host, how many times a week do you have sex with her? And then he's like, oh, two or three, maybe sometimes four times a week, and they're just, like you know, blown away and they give, they have the clapping, you know sound that comes on, and then, uh, they go what? What do you owe your longevity and your health and your sex life to you? I just want to thank my personal lord savior, jesus christ, and my first reaction because there was like a time in between how many times a week he had sex with his girlfriend, to um, to that, and and so then I was like, wow, he's talking, wait. And then I go, wait a minute. What it was so weird. That's the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Oh yeah, and so, and I so. I had Kayla up here who was engaged to a man, about to marry him, and then he has a dream. And did you hear this dream?

Speaker 2 35:27

Yeah.

Speaker 1 35:28

And the dream was uh, god showed him two paths. Path one is that he's with his fiance. He lives the rest of his life in love. It's going to be great. They're going to do be a great couple, you know, start their family, whatever. And then road two is a life with God. And it was either God or his fiance is what he saw in this choice. And all of a sudden he kind of felt the weight of that and he said I don't, I can't live a life without Jesus. And that, to me, was mind blowing. That that was his conclusion. I mean, he was engaged, he was ready to go down that path, but something in his heart and soul that's like, that's saying no to your feelings.

Speaker 2 36:08

101. Right, yeah, and.

Speaker 1 36:10

I think okay, Cause you could say, like a man is about to look at porn and you know, God's there in a dream. You can either look at porn and your life will look like this, with a whole bunch of struggle for a whole lot of years and a marriage that's messed up, or you can just love your wife really well, or it could be, um, you're about to cheat on your taxes and God would show you. Here's a lot. You know, not everybody gets that great of a um, I don't know a dream or revelation, but God's word is clear that that revelation, that dream that he had, was true.

Speaker 1 36:40

Like a life of sin and pleasure. It means a life outside of godliness, and you can throw Christian labels all over it. But we know that a label doesn't mean quality. A label just is a piece of stitching you can get made in China and not be quality. So I was, I was moved by that with Kaler story. How did, how did, when you heard Kaler talk about giving up a homosexuality, a sexuality, to God to trust him, for him to change his heart to marry a woman one day, what did? How did how did that make you feel, Especially for all the gay friends you may have currently?

Speaker 2 37:15

I was just thinking of. Like what a sacrifice he's making. He's sacrificing a heart's desire. Like he's sacrificing never being able to fulfill this need in him Right To like gratify the flesh. Never being able to fulfill this need in him, right Um to like gratify the flesh, like I mean, I just think of the stupid fly, okay.

Speaker 1 37:40

Cody, we need some pest control out here.

Speaker 2 37:41

I'm like what my hair smells good, okay, can y'all? So, anyways, like I'm listening to that and I'm like how powerful is that for everyone? Right, that is like man, my flesh wants this, but it's sinful, right, and you're watching a guy say no to being like I mean because, who knows? Like he may never be attracted to a woman ever.

Speaker 1 38:10

Right.

Speaker 2 38:10

Like, imagine being in a marriage where you're not attracted to your spouse. Right, you don't have like like you like. Imagine being being married to Adrian and you have never been attracted to her a day in your life. Right, Having sex is a chore. Right, Like, just looking at it's like I imagine so I so imagine this.

Speaker 1 38:32

Imagine a day when you didn't get to pick your bride, but you were just one, was, or your spouse you were just given, you were just given one which remember this whole thing of dating and marriage.

Speaker 2 38:43

If you at least like, like, if it were me like. If you at least like dudes, like, okay, like at least I didn't like get a vagina. You know like, at least I got a penis like that's. You know like, imagine, and like I just can't, I couldn't get over it. I, I was like, if God, because attraction is important, we cannot say that attraction is unimportant.

Speaker 1 39:11

Hold on, hold on, is it?

Speaker 2 39:13

I know that I believe that attraction can grow.

Speaker 1 39:15

Yeah, but like, but I mean, like you got to imagine this. This thing of attraction being the primary thing is only been around for 200 years. So prior to that, everybody, everybody's, marriage was arranged. Nobody got to pick their bride, nobody got to pick their husband. You got stuck with who you got stuck with, and then you had to choose to love them.

Speaker 2 39:34

Yeah, but it would be 10 times worse if I didn't even like dudes. Fair, okay, at least if you're like it's like yes, arranged marriage sucks. Like if the if the love isn't there. Like if the but like but here's the thing about.

Speaker 1 39:51

here's the thing we know, right? So guys get their minds wired to porn all the time. Yeah, and so no matter who they marry, she could be the most beautiful Miss America, but his mind is addicted to porn. And the problem with porn is there's a different, the variety of porn, all that it doesn't matter. If she's Miss America, you're not going to be attracted to her, because you require variety yeah, so it's probably similar to-. The exact same thing.

Speaker 2 40:17

Like you're a dude. You're attracted to dudes, you want to make out with a dude, but you're stuck with a chick, it doesn't matter how hot she is Right with a chick, it doesn't matter how hot she is right. If you like penises and then you have to be married to a chick, you're gonna be like well, this I'm.

Speaker 2 40:35

This is a struggle okay, but it's the holy spirit that has to but god has conform your heart yeah, but god has designed your brain, yeah. So god can change all of that, but like it's, it's going to take time. It will take time. So do.

Speaker 1 40:49

I agree it's a huge sacrifice, yes, but I think that's every marriage Cause you would say there were days you weren't attracted to your husband because he was being a jerk. And it wasn't because of physicalness, yeah, it was because of whatever. And I think Adrian would definitely say the same thing. I would. I think anybody who's been married for any you know beyond like a year will go.

Speaker 1 41:08

There have been moments where I've been like, okay, I married the wrong one, because my flesh is crying out, because you don't realize how selfish you are until you get married, and I think the beauty of marriage is it pulls that out of you, even if you're again. I'm not advocating arranging a marriage between a person who is same-sex attracted, and I think that might be a fallacy, even to name that, but isn't desiring to marry to a woman. Just stick them together. But what I do know is that God designed our brains to change and we have morphed our brain through pornography and the darkness, taking God's design that could morph it to the latest version of our wife and it morphed to the latest version that I've seen on a pornography and because that's dopamine that does that and oxytocin bonds you to the same person.

Speaker 2 42:00

Yeah.

Speaker 1 42:01

That's also called the hugging hormone.

Speaker 2 42:02

God can totally change your brain, but I can see that initially, like it's, like he's, he's giving up this, this desire for God.

Speaker 1 42:15

Right. Do you think and let's just walk this down Do you think that desire, um, do you think it's to be tempted with, that desire is a good thing or a bad thing, or a neutral thing?

Speaker 2 42:28

I don't know.

Speaker 1 42:29

I don't know. This is where I think a lot of people would say you know, it's.

Speaker 2 42:33

I mean we're tempted with everything.

Speaker 1 42:35

I mean we're like those temptations, you would never say like that's a good thing. You'd say, oh, that's bad. I have to resist that, like if someone said and so I think what happens in our culture, even with Christians, this is kind of like the Christian response Well, I'm sure they're just, they're born gay. They're born that way and so therefore, ontologically it just means like your human nature is that you're gay, and there is no scientific evidence that says people are born gay. But it sure feels that way and I'll give them, I'll give them the feeling I'll give people it sure feels like I'm that.

Speaker 1 43:03

But when you say your human nature is gay and not your sinful nature, is gay it then puts it into an ontological category where, very soon, you're going to say but God made me this way, so therefore I must be this way, and why would God make me in a way that is not congruent to the way that I am? And so that's the problem that I think a lot of Christians this is like you know like Christians who love Jesus and they apologize because what's happening is they feel like it ontologically, in your human nature, you have this desire for the same sex. That was just God given. And I would say to you know that in your sinful nature and it sounds like a mincing words, but it's important to think in your sinful nature you have desire that's ungodly, like you want to have sex with multiple women, or you want to have sex with men if you're a man, and that's problematic and we need to resist that temptation full on. So I just say that because that's what God's word tells us.

Speaker 1 43:55

But what happens, I think, when people say, ontologically, you're born gay, what happens is you start to read the Bible and say like, because God made us, creation isn't bad, the image of God isn't bad, and so therefore, your feelings must be seen as the forefront and that is a good thing. And so when the Bible looks like it's contradicting how you're feeling, how you've been, how you were wired, then you've got to resist that, which is weird. When the trans kind of movement has come along, that's completely opposite of the gay thing, which is you can't change or whatever. So I feel like that's the struggle we're all facing. Is that this, this, um, we don't, we will. Okay. For a lot of liberals it's like this is what God, this is what God wrote and intended. It's just doesn't mean what you think it means.

Speaker 2 44:41

It's not that clear. It's just a book If you don't have the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 1 44:45

Sure, that's a hundred percent right, and I think what's happened for a lot of people is that they've read the book and they don't have the holy spirit and they don't like it. It's offensive and I don't want to conform to it. I want to conform to me and so I'll make it.

Speaker 2 45:00

you can make you could, and so therefore it's irrelevant, it's stupid.

Bible Reading Strategies and Devotionals

Speaker 1 45:03

You could argue for slave based or sorry, race-based slavery from this book. You could, you could, you totally could. You could. You could make an argument, but it's not true, because you've now taken out of what it means to now suit you. And the same way with how slave masters back then took the Bible and made it say what they wanted to say, those who are advocating for. I don't want anyone to tell me how to treat another human being sexually. I don't want anyone to tell me how to treat another human being as property. Well, now, we can do that, that's okay. Racism, slavery, that's really bad. But sexuality, again, everything changes over time. The Bible never changes on what the standard of right and what standard of wrong is. Because it was written, because we have the manuscripts, because God made sure that we had what we needed to know, we can trust his word for all time. All right. So let's get some application points here. Let's talk about reading the Bible. Tell me what is your strategy for reading the Bible?

Speaker 2 46:01

Well, it changes probably in every season um based on what I need and what I'm interested in? Um, but I read every day, every morning.

Speaker 1 46:12

Is that the Bible you read from every day?

Speaker 2 46:14

Yes, so it's a ESV study Bible, um, and I love it. It has a few devotionals in it. It's like book Um and I appreciate the footnotes.

Speaker 1 46:27

Is it a devotional Bible or a study Bible?

Speaker 2 46:29

It's a study Bible with, like in each book, maybe every 10 or so chapters. There's like a random devotional based on whatever you just read yeah. Um, but I would never read that like on its in itself.

Speaker 1 46:45

Um so for how often do you read the Bible?

Speaker 2 46:48

every morning.

Speaker 1 46:49

So, like for 10 minutes, five minutes, what do you?

Speaker 2 46:52

um, I try to do at least 30 minutes. So if I mean and it's so frustrating because like I'm not willing to give up that Bible time, uh, to like have a longer time to get ready Do you see the fly too? I do Coding so, um, so, like in the mornings, even if I wake up late, like I'm still going to sit and read the Bible because I need it, yeah, like I need that time to like sit and reflect and and read and, you know, wake up.

Speaker 1 47:24

Obviously like.

Speaker 2 47:25

I have my coffee like it's, that's just that's my time.

Speaker 1 47:28

You have a ritual and a rhythm.

Speaker 2 47:29

It's very special to me, and so there are some mornings where, like I wake up late, sorry, where I'll wake up late and I'll just have to, like, sacrifice 30 minutes of getting like I'll just have to speed get ready and look like a hot mess for work. Okay, like so, but it's just like you have to, you have to make it a priority and you have to make it special. So it's like the mornings that I just sleep past my alarm.

Speaker 1 47:54

Yeah, so I and so you said recently like you stepped away from that cause. You want to do something else.

Speaker 2 48:00

So I was. I was reading from like Genesis on, and I was in a second Kings.

Speaker 1 48:05

Were you doing like a chapter a day? What were you doing?

Speaker 2 48:07

Yeah, so I was just doing a chapter a day and my goal is to, like, read the Bible from front to cover or front from cover to cover.

Speaker 2 48:13

Um but gosh or from cover to cover, but gosh, it's like I know it's going to take forever. And the Bible reading plans. It was just too much reading in one morning and I was like this is becoming like a theology class, like I can't, I don't want to go to theology, I just don't. I don't want to go to seminary. So I am. I changed it to a chapter a day but then, after being in the Old Testament for so long, I was like my brain kind of needs a break and my boss got everyone at work this devotional on humility and it's literally, it's like five. It's six weeks and five days in each week and each week has a specific text.

Speaker 1 48:59

Yeah.

Speaker 2 49:00

And so each day breaks down the text like a verse, verse by verse, and then, after reading the little devotional, you journal your prayer. So, it gives you like a prayer prompt and it was super. It's been super helpful for me Like, um, this is probably just going to need to be a different podcast episode, but for probably the last year, I've been struggling with wanting to leave our church.

Speaker 1 49:27

Okay, nice. So I won't elaborate on that, but um you can't just kind of throw that bomb out there, I know, cause it's already been an hour of recording. It's okay.

Speaker 2 49:38

Um, but yeah. So this devotional on humility convicted me in, like every single area of life like in my marriage and motherhood and like my church membership and like how I view things and like it was so convicting, yeah, and I've always kind of not like look down on these, but I've always been like I don't want to have a devotional because I want to read from the Bible.

Speaker 1 50:05

Right.

Speaker 2 50:06

But I was like, when she gave me this, I was like maybe it'll be nice to have a break from second Kings, and so I it. Just it was heavily convicting, powerful, so yeah.

Speaker 1 50:17

Okay. So for me, yeah, I kind of I do the chapter day and I started my current Bible in roughly September of 2021. And now I'm in this morning was Acts seven. And so just you know, just plodding through day by day seven. And so just you know, just plodding through and day by day, and it's and I write, you know, I do a principle, uh, sorry, I paraphrase the, the, the chapter. I read on the in the margins and then I write a principle like here's what this teaches about God or teaches about people, and then how I can put into practice of like I need to believe this, I need to do this, I need to trust God with this, uh, and that's, that's a simple thing, and that that can take anywhere from five minutes to 30 minutes, depending on how much time I have in the morning, um, but you know, it's kind of like your point, like you make time for what you care about. So I'll spend, you know, roughly 30 minutes in prayer and then 30 minutes, uh, with um, with the word, and then journaling.

Speaker 1 51:14

Uh and I've been praying for different people over. You know, I'll have like a little prayer journal and kind of do specifically one at a time of people to pray for our church and that could become a powerful tool. Uh, just really engage your heart towards specific people. Uh, and I do that for my family as well. So Adrian's always on the rotation. I just finished her second one recently, so it's it's always fun to pray for your spouse. I just finished her second one recently, so it's always fun to pray for your spouse.

Speaker 1 51:39

But yeah, I think that what I've seen over the past just many years I've been doing like temptation I don't want to say it goes away, but the ability to resist temptation is increased five tenfold. When I am in God's word on the regular, I'm praying, god hear my heart and he responds through ways it's unimaginable. When I'm struggling financially, god always comes through. When I'm struggling emotionally, he provides and I'm able to see his word speak to me. I'm able to speak to him. It's powerful. So I can't tell you how much you need God's word. But you need God's word because it will offend you, no matter if you're gay or straight, no matter if you're black or white, and you want it to, and you want it to Because, remember, you're not conforming God's word to your life.

Church Discussion and Farewell Greetings

Speaker 1 52:32

You're conforming your life to God's word and it has everything you need, for life and godliness are within this, is within this text, and so I want us to be a people who read God's word and wrap our head around it, because it's uh, it's so powerful, reliable, it is so, uh, sufficient, it's so necessary, it's so clear. I mean there's you don't you're not confused by God's word. You don't need a seminary degree, you don't need to read Greek or Hebrew in the language that we have it, you can read it for what it says and understand the truth of the gospel and it's the final authority in our lives. All right, we're gonna have to come back to you leaving the church here a little bit.

Speaker 2 53:14

I'm not going anywhere.

Speaker 1 53:15

All right, that's good, that's good. No, hey, any other final thoughts before we wrap this up.

Speaker 2 53:19

Oh sorry, it was so long.

Speaker 1 53:21

No, it was good. It was good. I think people enjoyed it. Hey, thanks so much for watching. We talk, faith, culture, everything in between, from our house to yours. Have an awesome week of worship.