Pastor Plek's Podcast
Church Leadership and the Challenge of Cultural Engagement
297: Pastor Plek, Machine Gun Nick, and Chris Bowers engage in a thought-provoking conversation about the Stronger Men's Conference, where a former stripper's testimony and Mark Driscoll's polarizing comments set the stage for a deeper exploration of public repentance and leadership in the church. The discussion traverses the sensitive terrain of calling out sin, discerning heartfelt apologies, and the implications of using divine anointment to deflect criticism.
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297: Pastor Plek, Machine Gun Nick, and Chris Bowers engage in a thought-provoking conversation about the Stronger Men's Conference, where a former stripper's testimony and Mark Driscoll's polarizing comments set the stage for a deeper exploration of public repentance and leadership in the church. The discussion traverses the sensitive terrain of calling out sin, discerning heartfelt apologies, and the implications of using divine anointment to deflect criticism.
Got questions? Text us at 737-231-0605!
Like, share, and subscribe! We love seeing and responding to your reviews and comments.
Support the show: https://wbcc.churchcenter.com/giving
Welcome back to Pastor Plek's podcast. I'm your host, pastor Plek, and with me in studio once again is Machine Gun Nick Howdy, and then also Chris Bowers, who is our resident Christian culture expert. Welcome, chris Bowers, with a latest culture report. What do we got?
Speaker 2:Thanks, wow, I wouldn't go so far as to say no, he's a christian culture expert.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're definitely a christian culture expert I do like to follow big eva.
Speaker 2:Um shorthand for evangelical world. I didn't even know big eva. I don't use that big eva.
Speaker 1:I love that big evangelical, I love that. That's so. Give me the industrial complex.
Speaker 2:Um, so the other day you had uh, you guys were talking about the pastor and me and Katie Katie. Yes, uh, talking about the big controversy that went down at the stronger men's conference with, uh, which is a James river church, uh, which is an assemblies of god, denomination, um, their stronger men's conference is massive. It's been happening for years, uh, if you're not familiar with assemblies of god, it leans, charismatic, not fully charismatic, fully charismatic.
Speaker 2:To be saved, I think you have to speak in tongues oh nice, yeah, yeah, so very, which is interesting because Mark Driscoll, who got invited there, is not a charismatic.
Speaker 1:Well, he is a mystic though, yes, so I mean he dabbles in the charismatic.
Speaker 2:So, however, that entire blow up that went down that you all discussed, yeah.
Speaker 1:So let's review real quick. It was. They brought a former stripper who now is a Christian yes, a male stripper. He rips off his shirt, he kind of does a striptease thing, climbs the pole, swallows a sword and everyone cheers yep, super, uh, super acrobatic.
Speaker 2:He's been on america's got talent multiple times very athletic dude probably the least culpable person in this entire thing, right, because all he did was do what he does, do what he does and got paid for kind of a weird thing at a men's event, I would say. A lot of people say, but okay, whatever. Um, so then Mark gets up there, uh, the following day and just as he says verbal processes out loud and starts making all these comparisons to uh Old Testament Jezebel spirit.
Speaker 1:Ashera.
Speaker 2:Ashera poles a lot of Old Testament figure.
Speaker 1:Ashera poles. It was like a fertility thing, so you kind of have. You know it would be very representative of having sex in some way.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So when I first saw the original one I was like here we go in some way. Yeah. So when I first saw the original one, I was like here we go. Mark Driscoll, old school.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Uh, pastor Mo brought up the original old school controversy from when he was at Mars Hill.
Speaker 1:Screaming at people about how dare you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, uh, which hands down my favorite sermon he's ever preached. I don't know what it is, uh, when a pastor yells at me I am exhorted to righteousness and I love it Not everybody has that.
Speaker 3:No, that's good to know. I'm going to keep that in my toolbox.
Speaker 2:So that takes place and then he gets kicked off stage by Pastor John. Yeah, then other stuff happens. He gets brought back up on stage and they do this kind of quasi-apology where Pastor Mark just kind of says, hey, I should have talked about it with you before, I just kind of went off, but he doesn't actually apologize for it. It's weird, because he just randomly just starts talking, have talked about it with you before. I just kind of went off.
Speaker 1:Well, and he doesn't actually apologize for it it's weird because he just randomly just starts talking.
Speaker 2:Anyway, sorry, so yeah, so he gives a half apology gives kind of a half apology, but there's some other weird things going on, because I, pastor john, ends up making this goes old testament, but then draws a connection to people like himself that are anointed by god and one cannot criticize them.
Speaker 1:Criticizing leads to unbelief and you're operating out of your flesh and so he probably was going with a moses type mantle of when you, when you murmured against moses, you were murmuring against god's anointed and therefore the earth swallows you up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is a Christian. Yes, they're calling themselves Christian. Oh yeah, oh, 100% they're calling themselves Christian.
Speaker 1:No, but there is a part of like if God has put you in the office of elder or leadership, you don't go criticize without having and go to him personally with one or two witnesses or two or three witnesses. Office of elder or leadership, you know you don't go criticize without having and you know go to them personally with two, one or two witnesses or two or three witnesses, and that's an important aspect, right Is this?
Speaker 3:old Testament law.
Speaker 1:No, well, that's sticks. That's Matthew 18.
Speaker 2:Matthew 18. Oh, they talked John. Pastor John mentioned this should have been in Matthew 18. There's different. I've seen different interpretations out there because this was a very public thing and therefore it's not. This person has sinned against you. Therefore, you go and talk to them in private they don't listen. Then you bring two or three don't listen to them. Then you bring the elders they don't listen to them. Then you bring the church and then they go out. But that was private sin, right? This was hey, we did this on a public stage before a bunch of men, and he, pastor Mark, in his initial verbal processing because he I was going to say rebuke, but he literally says this is not a rebuke, it's just an observation.
Speaker 2:So kind of sketch, all sorts of things. Pastor john's got all sorts of controversies on his side as well. Pastor mark's got the whole mars hill controversy, passion. Lindell's known for things like, uh, regrowing toes.
Speaker 2:Yeah and then stating I have proof, won't show. You will not show the proof. Um, he's heavily tied to Bethel. They share stages. I actually had this thought earlier today. Is say same situation there's a stronger men's conference. Pastor John invites you. Would you? I don't think you would ever have pastor John preached from our pulpit. Would you, however, think you would ever have pastor john preach from our pulpit? Huh? Would you, however, go and speak knowing that you have potentially a group that isn't your flock, but the?
Speaker 1:opportunity. Yeah, I would definitely be there, but I wouldn't make a big stink about whatever was going on. Uh, and I think that's just my personality I I probably would have been like I would love to kind of preach the gospel. The reason why I know I do I do this is what I did back before I was a pastor. I was a like author, christian author, and I would go on charismatic tv shows and um man, jesse duplantis interviewed me one time and he's about as charismatic and like out there and behind the stage he's like you want to know, you want to know how to raise money. You got to build a builder, buy an airplane.
Speaker 1:I was sitting there going, oh man, I hope, please, jesus, I don't want to get on the set with him and him lead the conversation a direction of like the prosperity gospel, like this is how you get money, and I was just like slowly dying on the inside but I felt like, oh no, I'm going to. If he goes that direction, I'm going to rebuke and go. That's not what I stand for or whatever. But then, thankfully, when he got, he was, he was nailed it Like there was no problem. I got to talk about God as a perfect father. I got to show how Jesus showed up in combat and I was able to speak really clear uh, the gospel in a way that I felt was very helpful to that audience.
Speaker 2:Gotcha. So there is a line, though, that you would potentially push back and rebuke.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, if yeah if it was me personally, like if he was like um, well, hey, you know, you know, if someone's not really saved, if they don't speak in tongues, are they not be like Whoa, hey, no, actually. Or like you, no actually. Or like you know, like you know that god really wants you to be wealthy, and whatever. Whatever I'd be like well, not necessarily, I would put, I'd push back. So what if it's just?
Speaker 2:events taking place. I some of the extracurricular events at the conference. Maybe it's it's men. They're trying to get all kinds of men because that conference is targeted at bringing non-believers in. They bring in jello wrestling, jello Something that is not former male stripper, it's female strippers.
Speaker 3:But why have people taking their clothes off at all? This is Christianity. We try to be modest, upstanding citizens who even pay their taxes, pay the Caesar what's owed. And now we're going to go and take our People, are going to take our clothes off for our amusement at a. I just couldn't. I would. What? Would you watch UFC?
Speaker 2:That's different. They actually had a boxing event there as well, and so guys had their shirts off for that yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay, but you're boxing. I'm not saying, but to have a stripper.
Speaker 1:Would I personally host that event? Heck, no Right, I don't think that's.
Speaker 3:Obviously, because I don't think I'd be here.
Speaker 2:It's whether you would speak at that event.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I would and I kind of figured you would. I would, just because I feel like I would have an opportunity. I don't know if I'd go full Mark.
Speaker 2:Driscoll on it.
Speaker 1:You would end up in front of an audience that you listen to whatever, or I want to preach to that guy, and then I'd have an impact beyond that moment.
Speaker 3:That would be my hope. How do you put aside your differences with the stuff that's going on?
Speaker 1:So that's where, okay. So in some cases this is where you go. Is that that's a preference thing that I personally probably wouldn't have at my church? But that's a church, but I probably wouldn't have a stripper on a pole. Just wouldn't go there, wouldn't have a stripper. Wouldn't probably have jello wrestling Probably not going to do that, but I wouldn't mind being able to talk to nonbelievers who showed up there. I'd be all for that.
Speaker 2:I guess maybe to your question is how do you and this is a good question for you to answer? To your question is how do you and this is a good question to answer how do you discern who to be seen associated?
Speaker 3:to is this kind of more of a political like stand, like playing politics. I mean by like. I'm not going to address this directly. I'm going to say something, maybe on the side or in my sermon, that would maybe open up the minds of the leaders of this organization.
Speaker 1:So I, you know, I've like when, for example, poetry slams. I used to be before. I was pastoring and I was in the army, which was really fun. I would be the weirdest looking guy at the poetry slam because I'd have a haircut.
Speaker 1:Anyway, I remember this one time I met this poetry slam and these guys are, like you know, completely out there, atheistic, agnostic, saying sex, drugs, rock and roll in their thing. And then I get up there and I share the gospel. I'll never forget this. This dude wearing he must've been at it was like year 2000. The guy had this jean jacket, vest with jeans and had pins look, Looked like he was from Vietnam and pins all over the place. And then he follows me out into the parking lot. I'll never forget this and I thought he wanted to fight me because I just shared the gospel. And he looks at me and he's like angry and I'm like, okay, we're doing this, we're going, I guess we're fighting right here. But just want you to know something. You've got balls. And I was like uh, uh, thanks, and I was so confused I just shared the guy anyway.
Speaker 1:So does that give me an opportunity? Especially if there's law? I would kind of gauge how many lost people are going to be there at this thing. Um, you know how many people that are far from God that are going to be here? I would kind of you know it's different in every sort of like thing Um, if I had to follow the sword swallower. That might be a little challenging, but I would definitely kind of go at it with like, okay, I would preach the message. I was there to preach and share the gospel and hope that somebody there that didn't know God and maybe they came for some swords falling, they left with the gospel, I don't know. I think that's where I think in that circumstance I would probably never host it, but I would probably preach at that and I'd have to go with. Would I be able to maintain my own testimony there? I think they're like John MacArthur recently was criticized because he was on the stage, I think, with somebody, and then he like I shouldn't.
Speaker 1:He was on the stage, I think, with somebody, and then he like I shouldn't have been on that stage with that guy, cause I kind of gave validity to that guy. And I don't know if you're giving validity to that guy and maybe I'm not this where it's like nobody knows who I am, so it doesn't matter and I and so that's tough. You know, if you're at a level of John MacArthur and you're on the stage with I don't know somebody from Bethel, like are you going to be ruining your witness?
Speaker 2:Right, and I guess there the context matters, Like are we doing this as a debate bringing different theological views, or are we presenting like we're a united front? Because I mean, would you?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Bethel TD. Jakes Paula White. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I would want to speak to the audience that they're speaking to 100%. So I think there'd be a part of me where I and I think I've seen this at a lot of events where, like the guy that was more like Votie Bauckham spoke at Andy Stanley's church and like I fell in love with Votody bockham because he was at andy stanley's church pre we don't need the old testament or no, I was probably like unhit yourself, but voting was there and he spoke to the young adults and it was mind-blowingly awesome.
Speaker 2:So vody has vody and vody has been willing to speak at a lot of places and he carries a certain gravitas, where one he never pulls a punch from the stage ever so I think he already has a platform when he steps on.
Speaker 1:You already know he is not affirming anybody else on that stage yeah, and mark driscoll and mark just, we obviously know he'll speak anywhere. I probably mark driscoll spoke at the crystal cathedral, which you know. Shortly after I spoke there and I was like wow, that was that was when he was lead pastor at Mars Hill and he spoke at the crystal cathedral, which is like you know, uh, uh, positive thinking kind of messages and he brought the gospel and they loved it and I was like it blew my mind. So I was like I don't want to miss an opportunity to speak the gospel to an environment where somebody might not hear it and they've been exposed to all these other wacky things. I would love to speak truth in that, even at the cost of someone might think I'm associated with those people, just like I feel like Jesus felt like he was associated with the sinners because he ate with the sinners and it's really the only cost is your reputation, honestly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, a hundred percent, and so I think that's really good. So let let's let's jump back into the craziness.
Speaker 1:yeah, because it keeps getting okay, yeah, I, I think this is where you. This is why I call you the christian culture update guy or expert, because you follow these stories all the way to the ground.
Speaker 2:I'm kind of like on the next one yeah, so I on top of this, um, there's, there's two different directions. We'll go with the one that kind of in chronological order. Yeah, um, justin peters, who's, I think he's been involved with a number of, like the gospel projects uh, not the gospel project, but like, um, the gospel project is like a children's ministry curriculum yeah, he's reformed. Uh, so super solid, yep, um, definitely like as far away from charismatic as you can get, more like in the vein of john macarthur a cessationist?
Speaker 2:yes so he had a podcast in in uh review of this stronger men's thing and brought in a guy who was security at john macarthur's strange fire.
Speaker 1:Oh when mark John MacArthur's Strange Fire.
Speaker 2:Oh, when Mark Driscoll showed up, when Mark Driscoll showed up, woo and apparently let's goes into a whole bunch of background of where security supposedly tossed, confiscated Pastor Mark's books and did all this and they told Mark to take his books and the security and then he goes. No, you guys can just have them. The security team still went, took the box and put it in Mark's car, basically making it seem the biggest problem is that there's all these people saying different things without a real. But that podcast was alleging that Mark was doing things to drum up social media, drum up the news.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's his, his thing that was his thing, so I'm like I yeah, I love mark driscoll and then I'm like mark, why?
Speaker 1:why, you don't need that, you don't need it. You're so good without all the other garbage, just be you and you don't. And I think this, you know, is that fear, is that like a need attention I don't know what that is and I get wanting to sell books, I get wanting to make a splash and impact, and clearly he was on the news all the time. He was interviewed by all the big secular people, but somewhere along the line I felt like Mark stopped pastoring and just was looking to I don't know, I don't know what he was looking for because he was arguably as big as you could get.
Speaker 2:As big as you could get, he was the face of young, restless and reformed yep. I started act 29 like yep, I mean they were doing massive church and now act 29 is egalitarian yeah, uh it. It's insane. Uh, where that when and mark was already big and his books were already selling, right when the strange fire conference thing and I.
Speaker 1:But here's the thing and maybe I've, and I think I've probably done this is where adrian with my wife would say chris, like in my past I probably matured some, but I would, that I would want to kind of create a, something. Because in me was like, if I don't, no one will Like I had. And then she would say you don't need that. And I'd be like, fuck you know. And so I think that might've been just spiritual immaturity and Mark had cast away anyone who would speak into his life like that. And if you surround yourself in the echo chamber of like do it, do it, do it, do it, it'd be great if you did that, then he's just like yeah, maybe that's what God's calling in my life.
Speaker 3:That's a funny statement. The echo chamber that's what we're calling group think now, yeah, the echo chamber is a horrible idea If you don't have somebody that will say wait a minute. In your organization, at any level that you're starting I mean, I wrote reports on this in college.
Speaker 2:Pastor Chris, do you have anybody in your life that's able to push back and say, hey, what about this? Are you thinking about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, thankfully the Elder Board does a pretty good job of that. We were just talking about my review this morning. Oh fun, and you know those always haven't gone well, but you know what they're needed and I think any. It's funny Anytime someone looks at your life they're going to find stuff that's not pretty and I don't want to look at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't like it when people go. You have pride. You don't think before you speak. You don't want to look at it. Yeah, I don't like it when people go. You have pride. You don't think before you speak. You don't blah, blah, blah. You should have known, oh boy, that just you led this wrong, you said that wrong, you did that, whatever, and you're just like, oh lordy, and you really have to, you know. The question then becomes am I the crazy person, or are they?
Speaker 2:You then becomes am I the crazy person or are they? You know like which one is it? And, and it's really easy to rationalize all your own thoughts so easy. I I still remember early on uh, we were talking and you made the comment it is. It can be very challenging. As a professional, I like to use the term professional christian as the the one who went to use the term professional Christian as the, the one who went to seminary and then submit to yourself to a board of elders who have not Right.
Speaker 1:And it's super hard. But you know and there are other churches that I'm I'm really close with that they have only professional elders, professional Christian elders, and and they would say, why would I sit? And they said that exactly, why would I submit myself to someone who isn't a professional Christian? And I was like, and after, over the years, over the years, and again, I'm not saying that their way is wrong and our way is right. I'm just saying over the years, I think it's really benefited me me to not go down to this like very narrow niche of people to be elders who are paid Christians. You can then also look at the self-interest of you know one of the things that's been really special of our elders. They said we have a responsibility to the urban poor here because of where God has placed us, and not that I don't care about poor people, but I wasn't thinking along those lines. We have made a difference here and I think you would say, yeah, you're making a difference wherever you are, but one of the reasons why we have this desire to leave a church plant here in Wells Branch is one of the elders stood up and said guys, look at all the urban poor we are ministering, to Look at how our benevolence ministry has impacted lives, look at how many people have gotten saved, look at the difference we've made. The community knows that where our church is and that we will help them because we're here.
Speaker 1:And I was just like I guess you're right. And then you're like, oh yeah, of course that's what we're supposed to do. And then you kind of then all of a sudden, your heart kind of grows in that direction. You're like, absolutely, we need to be on the front lines of loving the least of these, cause isn't that what Jesus did? And and I might not contextually connect the best with people who are trying to figure out how to make rent each week Cause I grew up, you know, upper middle class kind of had college was always going to happen.
Speaker 1:That was definitely in the cards. I never thought like that. And then all of a sudden, now you put me in this context I'm like, oh, I need to love, serve and care for those who didn't grow up like grew up, wasn't trained, like I was trained and to help them lift up urban poor, because the gospel always lifts up the poor. And so I think that's where that would challenge me in a really powerful way, whereas if I had a lot of people that were group thinking along, I probably would have been like, yeah, let's get out of here. And so because of that, god has really put it, burdened my heart and burdened my heart, soul, to really love. You know we have homeless guys living out behind the church, you know, behind the dumpster. You know we, we minister to those people and the gospel is just as applicable to them and I'm going to minister it just as equally to them as I would to anybody else. And that was really convicting for me being an elder meeting. It was powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think the.
Speaker 3:I want to speak on that just a little bit, because I can only conceive that in a way it's humbling to have people that aren't professional Christians on your elder board, and I think it keeps your scope more or less to the people that come to the church and not just this is what's good for the association right, or what's good for the association right or what's good for the church right like right, right, right.
Speaker 1:You know like, uh, you want to have the clean, pretty people, make sure they're all here and make sure the other people aren't and like that. And I'm not saying that's what only christians would do, but but because I don't want to, I don't want to paint like professional christians as like these monsters. But what I do want to say is like when you have perspective, that's different and it shows, opens your heart and your eyes to what God is doing. And you see it, because sometimes you can feel like I just ministered to these people and it didn't do a thing, like you're, like it made no difference. And then someone goes.
Speaker 3:Well, actually boom, boom, boom. What about this? And you like, oh yeah, I guess it did make a difference. What about this? Yeah, and so what if you had two sets of elders, kind of like a house of commons, and and so you had the the non-professional elders, then the professional elders. Well, that just make a church way too bureaucratic, you know we have that, so you have uh.
Speaker 1:Pastors are elders who are paid elders. Oh okay, so you kind of have that.
Speaker 3:So you have pastors are elders who are paid elders, oh okay.
Speaker 1:So you kind of have that system. They just don't vote on stuff, okay.
Speaker 2:So, therefore they're not right Right, right right.
Speaker 1:You have a governing board of elders which make the decisions, which I'm one of them, but there's six other guys who are not paid by the. They're all volunteer and the amount of hours that they put in is probably equal to the amount of hours I put in outside of work hours. Does that make sense? Wow, so there's your typical 40-hour-a-week job, but then there's another 20 hours a week that goes into taking care of the needs of the church and doing church things and doing weddings and doing funerals and community groups and discipleship groups and blah, blah, blah. All that stuff is on top of that. Every elder that's a volunteer does, and they're doing finance meetings on a Sunday. I mean it's wild to see how much volunteer lay people do on top of their regular job, and there's not a harder worker than the elders of our church that have great perspective on what it means to be a Christian and be in full-time ministry. It's wild, it's, it's an amazing thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I. I like the unpaid elder model. To me it feels more akin to what elder was traditionally through old Testament. As you grew up in the community you kind of come up through you're an elder, you're wiser, you're older, like, and that's what you're kind of pressing back down upon.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 3:Um so, and I think, it's good, but within respect, right Cause we can't just pick any old person to be like you're wiser, because absolutely.
Speaker 1:We all know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, correct you'd be a really setting your way as old person.
Speaker 3:That's sinful get off my lawn. Yeah, I could think of a few of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, so so there was that piece with some extra. So mark is not new to even presenting facts in a different light, maybe, so that's playing a role into this. And then, uh, the most recent thing I've seen is, uh, pastor john, at I think it's a midweek service, came out and started talking about how um their church, their denomination, are receiving like death threats and um, mark was texting his son and and things going dark there and just like again wait, wait, wait hold on, yeah, slow down so, like the death threats were to to.
Speaker 2:So they were. The uh james river church had to shut down their switchboard and not take any calls because the admins were taking death threats. Wow, Uh uh. John said he was over preaching in Arizona, which really hilarious, since that's where Mark Driscoll preaches now. But he was in Arizona and so was the assemblies of God. Superintendent, Right, I don't really understand their their, their hierarchy but, um, they also comment.
Speaker 2:That guy commented to john that at the assemblies of god headquarters they're receiving death threats and also had to shut their switchboard down and not take any calls. So things are going really crazy all across, which also it's like how, how did we escalate to that type of thing?
Speaker 1:all of this is being said and the other thing I think is weird is that people are actually using phones to call.
Speaker 2:But anyway, that's probably another thing. And they have switchboards, okay, yeah. So my issue here is this is john saying this from the stage and then mentioning also, and just flat out stating this is what driscoll texted in? Nowhere does he show any of these text messages, nowhere does he provide proof of any of the phone calls and since we know john is not big on showing proof with the toes thing, it's like oh my gosh what?
Speaker 1:so what he was saying? He was getting death threats because of this, but there's no evidence to support the death.
Speaker 2:But he wasn't willing to present anything, show anything. So yeah, the story continues. Yeah, I feel like that's it's a.
Speaker 1:it's a challenging again what this is, where as a okay, so I I did live I don't know the christian celebrity life like as a you know small, quasi little small person that just happened to be on TV shows a bunch in a former life. But it is different as a pastor of a church. When you have that much limelight on you, it can be really challenging. And so I don't know what pastor John is going through on all that, but it's probably really difficult to navigate. And so you say stuff that I don't know if he's embellishing it. Man, that's a tough thing to even kind of speculate on without any evidence or whatever. Yeah, and I'm not saying he's lying, but when someone starts talking about how the switchboard had to be shut down, I automatically go like you have a switchboard. And then my second thing is like most people are keyboard warriors today, and I wouldn't doubt that people are like saying a bunch of ridiculous stuff on social media. But man, it's sad. If that's true, how sad that is 100%. It's like that's wild.
Speaker 2:To me it's somewhat the controversy breeds controversy and that type of people just kind of seem to attract to themselves. And is this where?
Speaker 1:mark driscoll is dying for another thing. Yeah, I like, because you gotta know that when mark driscoll is not dumb, he knows that when he goes and speaks somewhere that whoever is videoing it is going to do like eight billion little hot takes or whatever oh, he got caught with not caught that's a terrible term Ben Shapiro from Daily Wire, who's massive within right-wing politics.
Speaker 2:He did a reaction to a Driscoll sermon.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:Talking about men and at the end of it, ben Shapiro goes yep, 100%. I probably would have lowered the age of where guys need to stop being with their mom and start being with their dad, right?
Speaker 3:but he's like, yeah, and they had an age for that.
Speaker 2:Well, bar mitzvah, that's kind of the whole thing that you do, 12 or 13, 12 is it 12?
Speaker 3:and then militaries, not service until 20 right, so oh, we're talking about israel now israel yeah so, yeah, so and shapiro is still orthodox judaism and he's legit.
Speaker 1:Like he, he follows the law, which is wild yeah, still orthodox, that's so.
Speaker 3:At one time I was talking to a guy, uh, who's from england and not too long ago, like we're talking the 80s, he was like 16 in 89, and he got in the English Army at 16. Because, unlike here, where it's 18 until you graduate and make those decisions, in England you can make those decisions at 16. Granted, mom still had to sign away.
Speaker 1:Well, dad wasn't. Well, I mean at 17,. You do it. The US was 17.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, but still I was like 16. And he was like yeah, and I was like good God.
Speaker 2:So interesting you bring that up. I've got a complete pivot from the Driscoll thing. Got a question for you though IDF it's conscription now you must serve two years.
Speaker 1:That's the Israeli Defense Force. Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:You must serve two years. Yep Old Testament, Israel. You cannot be forced to serve Right. Where did the change happen?
Speaker 1:I think they needed people.
Speaker 3:Exactly, so remember a war happens.
Speaker 1:Israel today doesn't exactly follow the Torah right, but but I do. I think they're a remnant of that israel. Yes, I do, as a good dispensationalist, I totally do but they don't conscript until age 20, right?
Speaker 2:and I don't know today. That's old testament was yes, that was a great point. They conscript women, so I'm kind of like also a problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm just like guys. Now, when you throw out god's law, yeah, when you I mean so it's like you know, kind of like also a problem. Yeah, I'm just like guys. Now, when you throw out god's law, yeah, when you I mean so it's like you know, kind of reminds me of israel during jeroboam the first and jeroboam the second's reign. It was israel and god still interacted and gave them favor, but they were doing evil on the side of the lord and ultimately lost, you know, their land. Now I don't know how god's going to ultimately end things with them. Uh, this time around, you know, I mean it's been 2000, 1948, it was like 2 000 years since they were a thing. Yeah, uh, and you could even say 3 000 years since they were a thing, since, you know, israel was a nation and then the temple gets destroyed in 70, 80. Anyway, I was gonna say they kind of haven't been.
Speaker 3:But like since, at this point in time, I'm at a question as a Christian, like you, look at the Old Testament and the Jews are God's people, but then they kill the Messiah Right. So are they still God's people? Are they still going to go to the same heaven that I'm going to? Well, how do you?
Speaker 1:remember you also killed Jesus. I think that's the part that we got to remember is that we've all taken part in the death burial, but then also in the resurrection of jesus, but are they still part of the new covenant after jesus?
Speaker 1:if they believe that jesus died on the cross, if their hope was in the messiah. I think that what's really hard is remember. If you saw the miracles of jesus and you like, nah, it's Satan, you're going to hell, right. But if you saw the miracles of Jesus, said my hope is in the Messiah, that's my guy, you were saved. And so what the Pharisees did in that time? They saw the miracles of Jesus and they said that's Satan. And so they ascribed to Satan the acts of Christ, which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 3:But when I talk to some of the older Jewish people that I know they have a completely different mindset than I do about Jesus.
Speaker 1:They're just like a regular lost person now that God might reveal himself to, and that would be amazing, okay, but salvation is by grace, through faith in Christ the Messiah.
Speaker 3:When Muslims in the Middle East are seeing Jesus' face in their dreams and getting it, I guess we can pray for everybody. Yeah, absolutely Right.
Speaker 1:I do want to go back to you. I kind of want to land the plane on our culture experience with Driscoll and Lindell.
Speaker 2:So I mean, right now the thing is up in the air. I think there's still far more to come out with where things go from here with the text messages and all that to go down. I think the big takeaways are you know, we kind of asked some of them along the way of Pastor Chris, what would you do in this situation? Some of them along the way of pastor chris, what would you do in this situation? Um and and there was a an earlier podcast that you did uh, talking about church planters, and one of the items that you're looking for is futuring I think. I think protestant christianity has done, in general, a terrible job of futuring that like big time, in sense of we had no plan.
Speaker 2:If something like COVID happened and I'm not saying COVID, but what do you do with? The government tells you to close down yeah, so we didn't need to deal with, we didn't need to anticipate COVID, but we should have anticipated something. What do you do if the government says you, can't you need to close your doors. You can't meet.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:John MacArthur stood up and said no, even in the state of California, which is ballsy, yeah, to quote your, your poetry person.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's things like that. It's how do we deal with? We've had to deal with critical race theory, we've had to deal with the lgb, yeah, and I felt personally not equipped to deal with the critical race theory.
Speaker 1:I had to. There was such a um learning curve for me, uh, that I was behind and I for me that I was behind and I felt bad that I was behind, but I just, you know, it just was. I just did not do a good job with that. I wish again and I don't know if that's, how can you, maybe we should have seen that coming, but I didn't.
Speaker 3:How could we have seen it coming? How could you wake up one day in America and I'm just going to say this and racism is now well, it's okay to be. It's okay to be racist against white people, right, I'm just going to state it. Yeah, and you. But you can't be racist if you're not white. Like who even? How is that White for?
Speaker 1:like, and if you're not white, like who? Even? How is that order? The white fragility, and it took me reading white fragility to really understand the premise. It took me kind of going back to liberation theology with Tom Skinner, like I had to go back to origins and it took just forever for me to catch up on like seeing and Votie Bauckham really helped me with sort of seeing like the oppressor, oppressed sort of mindset that came from a Marxist background that is primarily kind of making sure that everyone you know who is the oppressor? Oh, white people who are the oppressed? Everybody not white. So that's the enemy, fight against the system. And so I didn't see, I didn't, you know, I didn't fully see all that Because, to be fair, there was a time in this country now we're going to hold that different rabbit hole, but where you could not buy property, or when land was gifted out by the United States government.
Speaker 1:It was gifted out to white people and then it wasn't gifted out to black people, and so that was a problem. But then how you solve the problem that's the part where I don't think we did a good job of. There was an issue, and then what do you do with it and how do you go forward. And I thought it was ill-equipped for that and that's so to your point. I think I I we didn't have a good enough background to be able to combat a lot of the marxist ideas that got in and we didn't have the ability to think, as a Christian, critically about all the different problems that our country has had and then what solutions might look like in the future. Because for the most part, I think me as a Christian was like I don't want to say stay out of politics, but like I'll leave my politics to just voting for someone who doesn't support abortion Right, like that was about it. But I wasn't thinking like what's moral law look like?
Speaker 3:But you got a lot. There's a lot more that went on in this one. We had mccarthyism right, which was kicking a lot of them out of different areas. Now the, the marks, then attack the schools, and that's how you see the, the education system, and no offense.
Speaker 1:But I don't want to go because I feel like this is a future. Well, this is a. This is a big, so it's, but but to your point, where was I prepared?
Speaker 2:no, no, and and and that is. But it's not just you, right, that is. One gift that the catholic church continues to give is, and they've got the manpower to do it right, they're able to put out theologians and think through these things, and oftentimes it's still reactionary there as well, but they've got the manpower to sit there and think through it now.
Speaker 3:Yes, that happens how do you say the catholic church is a is an enemy against marxism, when they were all about putting joe biden?
Speaker 1:don't get on that road, because but they do have the manpower to to like, they have an institution that's big enough. Hey, what's our position on Marxism? And they can write out their position. What's our position on homosexuality and marriage and anthropology? And whereas with Protestants we're all divided up with our little seminaries, and even the seminaries aren't really connected to churches unless you're SBC, but it's challenging. Aren't really connected to churches unless you're SBC, but it's, it's challenging, I think. I think you're bringing up the right point. Is like, because we're so splintered in many ways we champion that Like we have. We have that American sense of like rugged, individualistic churches on a problem. The problem side of it is we're so splintered, we don't have, we can't pull resources to get like hey, we're the people that we think could best think about this and come up with a position for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we've seen it over time, there's been times the westminster confession, the london baptist confession, things like the danvers statement, the national statement. So it it happens.
Speaker 1:But then even london, the london baptist confession. It's all about how the pope's the antichrist and you're like, and then they have to be like oh, it could be an antichrist they didn't put the article in.
Speaker 2:It doesn't say an or the what do we do.
Speaker 3:Maybe we should try to figure out how to stop all this division. We're all Christians after all.
Speaker 1:Once you splinter, it's almost impossible to put it back in the box, unless you're.
Speaker 2:John Smith and can go into a garden and the angel Moroni can come to you and and tell you that all of them have got it.
Speaker 3:Joseph smith, sorry.
Speaker 2:Yes, john smith, yeah, you have you lost so it's like we're going back to pocahontas gets, gets the discs and now tells you that all the denominations oh, let's not bring up mormon today.
Speaker 3:This I don't want to go.
Speaker 2:It is the challenge but I think there are things that can unite us and that we can yeah but I mean, I think we have to have that I mean john 17 reality.
Speaker 1:I think there's this thing next year, um called uh. It's the 17th hundredth anniversary of the 19th creed, and so they're trying to bring all the churches together that believe in no the apostles creed the apostles creed it's the 17th anniversary of the Apostles' Creed and I'm like I love it, but there's a lot of churches that I probably would disagree with, that are going to be a part of that, and that becomes the big question Do I sign up for that? Do you? But I do affirm the Apostles'.
Speaker 1:Creed Right so that becomes a. We can affirm this yeah, but then.
Speaker 2:But then it takes subsequent ones, all that to say, yep, futuring and thinking through understanding who you're going to associate with, who you're going to share a stage, with, understanding the limelight and the controversies that can come. I, I think that's the relevance behind following christian culture and understanding what's going on is, you know, any one of us could go down one of those wrong paths. We don't have a board of elders or, in your life, a board of elders, of mentors, that can speak into your life and tell you, hey, you're doing this wrong or hey, you need to check your blind spot, need to check your blind spot? Yep, that's, that's what we need and that's why christian culture. It gives us a light into what is happening, uh, across christianity well, hey, I just want to tell everyone.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for watching. If you have any questions, we're bringing our christian culture expert back, uh, chris bowers. He's always got his thumb on his phone on the latest happening of what is going on in christian culture. So, chris, we need to have you back. I think you can make it back next week for the latest update.
Speaker 2:We'll try. If there's not an update on that one, we'll see if we can find something else.
Speaker 1:Listen, there's always something.
Speaker 2:There is always something.
Speaker 1:The 24-hour news cycle affects Christianity as well, and we want to make sure that we give you the latest and greatest of how we should be as Christians, thinking about faith, culture and everything in between. Hey, thanks for watching. Drop a text 737-231-0605 or go to pastorplekcom of whatever question you have talking about faith, culture or anything in between. We'd love to hear from you, from our house to yours. Have an awesome week of worship.