Pastor Plek's Podcast
Navigating Emotional Health and Spirituality
299: Pastor Plek is joined by his wife, Adrienne, and counseling intern Hayley Hengst on this episode as they discuss the intertwining realms of emotional health and Christianity. Together they recall the laughter and hurdles of Adrienne's community group's expedition through "Emotionally Healthy Spirituality," revealing how the book served as a beacon for those navigating personal traumas with faith as their compass. They end this episode on a note of healing and hope, traversing the path of processing trauma, emphasizing the importance of being true to our emotions and the wisdom of seeking professional guidance.
Got questions? Text us at 737-231-0605!
Like, share, and subscribe! We love seeing and responding to your reviews and comments.
Support the show: https://wbcc.churchcenter.com/giving
299: Pastor Plek is joined by his wife, Adrienne, and counseling intern Hayley Hengst on this episode as they discuss the intertwining realms of emotional health and Christianity. Together they recall the laughter and hurdles of Adrienne's community group's expedition through "Emotionally Healthy Spirituality," revealing how the book served as a beacon for those navigating personal traumas with faith as their compass. They end this episode on a note of healing and hope, traversing the path of processing trauma, emphasizing the importance of being true to our emotions and the wisdom of seeking professional guidance.
Got questions? Text us at 737-231-0605!
Like, share, and subscribe! We love seeing and responding to your reviews and comments.
Support the show: https://wbcc.churchcenter.com/giving
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast. I'm so glad all of you are joining us, and with me in studio is none other than my very sweet wife, adrian pleckenpool. How are you doing? I'm doing great feeling, really sweet today there's nothing sweeter actually and also with us in studios, none other than hayley hanks. Hayley, welcome back. Thank it's. Uh, it's been a while. It's like been a couple of months, but it's been. How has I said the flood would come of people and people wanting counseling from you.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:You just pull that mic way close. And uh, you said that there was a, at first a little bit, but then finally you're getting a good, steady stream of people.
Speaker 3:Yes, I would say, at least half, if not maybe slightly more, of my entire caseload is from here.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Well, we were just talking about something before we went on the air or, I guess, started recording. Adrian, you're in a really cool book that really I feel like all counselors should recommend Peter Scazzaro. He is a pastor out of New York. He wrote a book called Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, but you're doing a little devotional book with your community group. Talk to me about it and then you were just sharing with Haley what it was and I kind of want to make sure that can be a great starting point for helpful books that will help people move forward in their proper aligning their emotions with Jesus.
Speaker 2:Yep. So Emotionally Healthy Spirituality is a great book that kind of marries a lot of like Christian truth and principles with a lot of like counseling concepts in a way that is, like I think, healthy and productive. So it doesn't allow you to sit in the like trauma of your of your background and just live as a victim of it and like over spiritualize it. But it does kind of give credence to that, while also adding some scripture and helping you learn how to like apply scripture in a way that is effective for healing it's and but the book breaks it down. It's really great and the book kind of calls out lots of coping mechanisms and it's real exposing, when you read it, of things that you can often identify from as you read but wouldn't have maybe been able to articulate on your own. So it's great. But there is a devotional book that my community group, so my community group.
Speaker 1:Let me just you know, let's book that my community group. So my community group. Let me just you know, let's talk about all your community groups.
Speaker 2:So let me just say this I'm going to this is. They deserve this.
Speaker 3:Okay, I hope they're listening.
Speaker 2:Okay, so for two years I was shepherding this. My favorite people Okay, it's my close friends, I love them and I being a shepherd of your peers is like terrible and so. But somebody had to like have the emails. Okay, so I I get the emails and technically I'm like supposed to be leading, but really it's like this collaborative group of all of us are, like you know, pretty competent. So I came in and I was like hey, I think the best course of action would be for us every week to discuss, because there's this desire to talk about how many are there in this group?
Speaker 2:Oh, there's eight now, but there was six at the time. But the desire was to talk about Bible and life, and so giving everyone a chance to have a life update was terrible. That was way too much talking, it took up the whole time and there was no scripture, there was no Bible discussion. So too much talking, it took up the whole time and there was no scripture. There was no Bible discussion. So, anyway, my question was what is something that you have read in the last two weeks Cause we meet every two weeks so something you've read in the last two weeks that was either encouraging or convicting, read in your Bible, let me caveat in your Bible, reading that was either convicting or encouraging.
Speaker 2:And what is something? And like how was it convicting and encouraging? And then, what is something that you're going to do as a result of what you've learned? Well, guess what? People never still don't know what the question was. It was too hard, it was too confusing, it was like we needed to repeat it every time. I would text it out to the group every time before a group and it was still just really difficult, and every time we would start sharing, people would have to be reminded.
Speaker 1:Was it because they weren't reading their Bible, or what?
Speaker 2:You know, I don't know. It seems like a fairly straightforward question. It sure does.
Speaker 1:Not to knock your crew. What would you do in this situation? What would you assess?
Speaker 2:Let me ask you this Would you be able to?
Speaker 3:answer such a question. Yeah, I feel like I would be able to answer such a question. Yeah, I feel like I would be able to answer such a question.
Speaker 1:Now you're going to put me on the spot, but it's not because I don't understand the question Like these this group had a little bit of a heads up right To think through their answer.
Speaker 3:So it wasn't an issue every week, right, every week, every week. What have you read in your Bible in the last two weeks that has been encouraging or convicting Is? That the question yeah.
Speaker 1:Have you read anything in the Bible in the last two weeks that's been encouraging for you or convicting?
Speaker 2:Both. Yeah, yeah, see, okay, good, so you probably have an answer. So this is the thing. People are having a hard time answering. And then, when it came to like what's something you could do, well, that was like very challenging and nobody could come up with, and I'm like, well, I'll tell you. Okay, that was the big joke.
Speaker 1:That was the big joke. Were you able to assess that?
Speaker 2:So no, I never did. But I was like, listen, maybe here's some idea. So what would happen is like it was fine, but it just didn't go very well and it was very clear that this method was not working for the group. But I was like at a loss because I'm like what else are we going to do? Because we had tried going through curriculum. Well, that doesn't work. People don't do their homework consistently.
Speaker 3:That is always the case, people don't ever do their homework. I don't feel like in a small group type of a setting. No, why is that? Hold on.
Speaker 1:I want to know just real quick, haley, why do people not do that? Give me your professional opinion on why people don't do what they commit to doing.
Speaker 3:Well, I don't think it's a professional opinion, it's just a.
Speaker 1:I mean, people are busy, which isn't an excuse but it's just, you know, it's like one more thing to fit into probably an already overpacked schedule.
Speaker 3:Now, do people actually have time? Yes, because I'm sure they scroll on Facebook all of us that claim I don't have enough time are, yes, scrolling through Facebook or watching a show in the evenings or something. So there is time, but it feels sometimes like I don't have time for this.
Speaker 2:And here's the. This is the thing. So my my thought on it is like I didn't really do my hair today. It feels very flat and I'm struggling, okay.
Speaker 2:So, um, my thought about it is, if this curriculum is not your quiet time time, like if you're trying to connect with God and this curriculum is not that well, then that's going to be very hard to fit in, because, assuming you're making the time to read your Bible and have your quiet time, well then this curriculum is just totally a deviation of that and it's really not as important as that. And so I was kind of giving benefit to the doubt that that might have been the problem, but it wasn't the problem. It wasn't the problem, but it wasn't the problem. It wasn't the problem actually. So we and here's the thing when we started the group it wasn't we weren't all friends yet, like I was connected to everyone, but everyone was connected to each other, right, and so that was when our homework skills were on target, like everybody did a great job.
Speaker 2:Cause they were trying, they cared about wanting to come and it was uncomfortable. Coming was uncomfortable discussion Like didn't? People didn't feel free to be super vulnerable yet and so sticking to a?
Speaker 1:curriculum was safe. It was. It was solving a problem for them to go ahead and do the homework. So this, so the curriculum you're on now, or the book Emotionally Healthy Spirituality that is the thing that you feel like is have you? Have you done it yet, or you're on your first week now?
Speaker 2:First week.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But here's the thing. So, after everyone got comfortable and familiar, the homework studying failed. And then we did Bible recap last year and the idea was like, okay, maybe Adrian's question is just too hard, so what we'll do is we'll just discuss the Bible recap and what we learned, but then we would get off on like random tangents that were very irrelevant and so this, so, so Leah Brown is actually to be credited for this. So she, she found this book, yes, and she goes, adrian, listen to it.
Speaker 2:And I listened to the intro, and the intro is like how do you apply the word of God to the practical things in your daily life? This walks you through, and the first whole week of devotionals is all about busyness and it's about schedule and it's about, kind of like, the motives behind why you might be too busy or too chaotic in your life. And it talks about, like, living your life, you know, proactively, not reactionarily. And it's great. And I'm, as I'm reading it, like to me all of this is just like yep, this is the only way to do it, this. I've been doing it since I was like 17. But what I'm learning is that, like that, I don't know where, I don't know, like what you think is like basic brushing your teeth.
Speaker 1:They think it's rocket science.
Speaker 2:Well, I wouldn't say rocket science, I would say like new thought and convicting. And I'm like, okay, this makes sense now. So, of course, all this time this has been so hard because there was so many obstacles to Bible reading time and to the ability to apply the Bible, and this book is now set to where we're going to learn how to like apply, and it's already doing it. So you read a little scripture and then they ask you a question.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And the question is like a very obvious question to what you've just read. And in my quiet times I'm asking that question kind of naturally, like I'm coming up with it. Well, you just find like if today I read, okay, today in my quiet time I read it was like Luke 7, I believe, and it was talking about John the Baptist and like John the Baptist sent the messenger to ask Jesus, are you the one that was sent?
Speaker 1:And Jesus says, of course, doesn't ever answer, but gives like a prophecy to You've seen, you know, like the blind. See the lame walk. Blessed is the one who doesn't fall away.
Speaker 2:Yes, and so his answer, once the messengers get it back to John the Baptist, john the Baptist will be confirmed. But like, why doesn't Jesus just say yes and so anyway, I had this whole. So I was asking myself questions Like maybe there's value in working with people to help themselves discover things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hate helping people. I hate doing that. It's almost offensive. It is offensive, in fact, but I feel like that's if you're a good counselor, you help, which is why I don't call myself a counselor, I'm a coach. I don't want to hear you talk, I want to give you opinions, right. Which we appreciate but people don't appreciate that they don't, but that's why they like Haley.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so anyway, let me just finish this one thought, and then we can move on.
Speaker 1:So, this.
Speaker 2:The question that the Bible study asks is like, oh, how do you apply this thing Right? And then it gets you thinking about your personal life in relation to what you read, and that has been huge already for our small group. So I'm like, praise God, we needed a resource.
Speaker 1:It's called inductive Bible study method, which I know that this is like what we've been preaching for years.
Speaker 2:Except it's. You would think that but-.
Speaker 1:We asked what did you like about the text? What did you not like about the text? What does it teach about people?
Speaker 2:What does it teach about people? What does it teach about God? How can you apply and I just don't think that comes naturally, for some reason, to people. I think it's very interesting.
Speaker 1:Jordan Smith here thinks it would be very simple. Right, jordan? Yep, all right. So getting on to that, because the whole premise of the book is you need to be emotionally healthy or God wants you to be emotionally healthy. And here's one of the things that I know sometimes, for example in a Christian world, sometimes counseling can get that sort of negative vibe. And here's something.
Speaker 1:So Joel, I'll throw Joel on the bus because we had a good moment Because I was like you know the five love languages. And he was like, oh, don't even get me started. I said why are we so upset the five love languages? Do you know that the Bible says that you need to honor one another, that you need to serve one another, that Jesus said that they I chose 12 of you to be with you. So you think of quality time, acts of service, gifts. Encourage one another. That's words of affirmation. And what was the other one?
Speaker 3:There's one more, that's words of affirmation.
Speaker 1:And what was the other one? There's one more.
Speaker 3:Yeah, physical touch, physical touch.
Speaker 1:Like greet each other with a holy kiss. There is reality, like if you're commanded to do it, that means someone's commanded to receive it, and I think sometimes we think the doing and the receiving are disconnected. I say this to people all the time and people think I'm kidding, but I'm actually serious. Um, uh, I had the gift of receiving. So like I feel like I'm I'm on the receiving end of of words of affirmation, I'm on the receiving end of quality time, on the receiving end of gifts, and I think you have to be able to receive, cause I need those things as a part. Part now, which one? Like in a hierarchy of those, I need them all. Uh, it's just probably people. The reason why there's a five love wages, it's what you're more apt to give is what you want to receive, but you need to be able to receive all of them anyway.
Speaker 2:I'm not really sure if that's a fair summary of the love. It doesn't say it like that right.
Speaker 1:But it doesn't say. It says like Right.
Speaker 2:But it doesn't say.
Speaker 1:it says like here's the way people you know give and receive love. Right, but I'm saying scripturally, you can back it up.
Speaker 2:Oh, I got you.
Speaker 1:And so when I told Joel that he's like you have just rocked my world, I now believe that you can use the five love language.
Speaker 2:Did Joel think five love language no?
Speaker 1:he was just like that is dumb, that is, we don't need to, you just need to love one another and suck it up. I was like, okay, I get listen, I'm under, I'm all for sucking it up, like that is a one of my favorite things. Suck it up buttercup Like that is my favorite one of my favorite quotes.
Speaker 1:However, however, it is scriptural and it is biblical and I think it's Holy Spirit inspired to understand that you have an emotional need, because there's emotional command to go and love people in that manner. Okay, so that's my basis point. With that said, back to you Recently, john MacArthur and if you don't know who, he's a mega church pastor, pretty hardcore guy as far as like conservative, even evangelical has made several statements regarding PTSD and depression which have been controversial. He has been reported to deny the existence of mental illness, referring to conditions like PTSD as non-existent. And it's like ADHD and OCD are noble lies to justify medicating people. But when he got pinned down he said well, you're not going to deny there's no such thing as PTSD. He would say I'm not saying that people don't experience something, but what they're experiencing with OCD, adhd, ptsd are all just other names for grief, and the Bible tells you how to deal with that. Now, as our soon to be professional, is that a better way to put that? Well, yes, okay. So, first of professional.
Speaker 3:is that a better way to put that? Well, yes, okay. So first of all a couple of disclaimers.
Speaker 1:One as I'm sitting here. Well, disclaimer one is just that my stomach is growling very loudly right now and I worry that it's like actually so loud that it's in the mic, it's in the microphone. People are listening to your hunger.
Speaker 3:I'm actually distracted thinking about that.
Speaker 1:No, they can't hear you, are you? That's not a possibility, not even possible.
Speaker 3:Okay, that's disclaimer number one. Disclaimer number two is yes. As you and I were chatting prior to this, I just wanted to be cause. You were asking if I felt comfortable talking about trauma and I was saying yes and no because, like you know, I am definitely still a newbie. I won't try to act like I'm not. I'm a counseling intern at the moment graduating associate counseling associate graduating in December.
Speaker 3:Um, I mean, obviously I know a lot. I've been in school for two plus years now getting my master's and I'm under supervision, and so it's not that I don't know what I'm doing, but I don't want to ever present to anyone that you know I'm like, I'm an expert. At this point I'm not, and especially with trauma, I do feel like that's a whole kind of do you say, niche or niche.
Speaker 1:You know either one is appropriate. Okay, which one do you go with, adrian?
Speaker 3:Niche, niche, that's what I do too.
Speaker 1:Niche is way cooler.
Speaker 3:It's like maybe trying to, but I do feel like trauma is a whole niche in itself, and so, um yeah, my disclaimer is just I'm not trying to act like so let's talk about trauma just for a second.
Speaker 1:I you know, I've heard and maybe this is the part where maybe it is grief, but we're calling it trauma. I don't even actually care semantically what you call it, but there's big T trauma, small T trauma.
Speaker 3:Talk me you know, like sexual assault or rape or death, or uh. I mean, yeah, I think just all the things anyone thinks of when they think of trauma, the very big horrific.
Speaker 3:Horrific is a good word, yes, but little T trauma can be, um, you know, having gone through a difficult divorce could be categorized as little T trauma. It's, it's still it has. It has changed something. Little t trauma, it's, it's, still it has. It has changed something. It has rocked. It has rocked you to your core, um, so that doesn't have to be necessarily what would be classified as horrific, but it has forever changed you and forever kind of altered. Uh, I would say a lot of things about can you give me an example of one, I think.
Speaker 1:I think this would be super. Let's concrete it a little bit.
Speaker 3:I don't don't give me what?
Speaker 1:what I mean by that is like a specific. I don't want to get into a specific person but, like you know, let's say you were eight years old and something happened. Can you give me an example? And maybe is it too hard for me to, for you to come up with one Cause you're like I don't want to use all my patients ones.
Speaker 3:No, the first one that came to mind and gosh again I mean, maybe someone that's listening, that is an expert in trauma, would be like that's not little T trauma. She clearly doesn't know what she's talking about, but I think experiencing fairly severe bullying would be classified as little T trauma which actually is something that I and. This is fine. I'm not naming names, so I don't feel uncomfortable talking about it, but that's definitely something I'm seeing a lot of. When I started my internship- I actually did not anticipate seeing children.
Speaker 1:I kind of thought like I don't think that's my, my niche.
Speaker 3:My niche is not children, uh, but I have actually met with quite a few kids and teenagers and, um, first of all, I'm liking that a lot more than I anticipated. Um, but that does seem to be a very recurring uh topic amongst that age.
Speaker 1:How does that affect?
Speaker 3:them Gosh in so many ways and, honestly, like my sister who I know my poor sister, cause she came up last time when I was here she's probably like why do you always talk about me when you're on that podcast? But my sister was bullied pretty severely through middle school. Weirdly like it's not weirdly, but my sister was very small for her age and that was kind of. She was targeted because of I don't. I mean, I don't even know why that was like a thing. She was very pretty, very athletic, like all the things, but she was really little and a specific group of girls kind of just decided like we're going to remind you daily that you are much smaller than other, you know sixth graders and seventh graders and it, um, I'm not going to say that's what led to her addiction, Cause we talked last time about how she got addicted to pain medication first, but, um, it messed her up to this day, Like there are things about her that I you asked, like what it does to a person?
Speaker 3:It forever, I think, altered the way she views herself and her worth as a person, which then goes on to affect so many other things, but you don't feel that you have worth or value or there's nothing good about you. Um, that can really those middle school years.
Speaker 1:And now I'm going to make you put your mom hat on, uh, those middle school years and and you can tell me I'm going way off the track, but I would, I just think, just cause you brought this up on this, that's where a lot of small T trauma comes from. You know, I just think of lunch table land, of like the, the. But how did you, as a mom, navigate middle school?
Speaker 3:Well, I've only had one so far. That has my oldest is in eighth grade and, you know, almost at the end of eighth grade.
Speaker 3:So, my other two haven't gotten there yet and I will say, thankfully, it was actually a very smooth experience for us, like I hear I'm sure y'all do too. Everyone talks about like middle school years are the worst, and I think that actually is often true. I feel like that was the case with myself, my sister, because it's such an age where you're kind of trying to figure out who the heck you are Like, usually by high school. Not that you've completely got it figured out You're obviously still a child even in high school but I do feel like by high school most people have kind of figured out like here's who I am, here's kind of my people, here's what I'm into, but in middle school, like they enter sixth grade and they have no idea.
Speaker 1:And you have boys.
Speaker 3:I have all boys.
Speaker 1:And we have all boys, so I feel like the ones that get tortured in middle school for the most part are girls. Is that a fair?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I kind of think you're right. I mean, um, or I don't know if it's if they get tortured the most or if it just hits them differently, I'm not sure, but I would agree that middle school seems a harder experience for girls than for boys, and I'm just going to now going to kind of put you as your cause.
Speaker 1:I, you have a group of moms you hang out with and, um, what about social media and the impact that has with girls in middle school? Any thoughts there?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean. So most of my I would maybe say all of my close girlfriends have not allowed their kids to have social media.
Speaker 1:Um, but I get around that with phones and everything else. They just say no phone, or you have a dumb phone, or kind of been across the board.
Speaker 3:A few of us have held off on even um. Like my son just got a phone this year, um, but it's a bark phone, or, if I'll know what that is but, um, it's really strapped down, like it's pretty impossible for him to do anything that I haven't approved of or I'm aware of. So I think that's the route most of my friends have gone is, first of all, holding off later than most people and then, when they do, eventually giving them something like that a bark phone. Um, what's the other one? A gab phone.
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, uh.
Speaker 3:So yeah, I actually don't. I don't think I have any close friends whose kids have social media, but I clearly know.
Speaker 1:Well, that's why I mean that, because, as far as my close friend for sure know people whose kids have the broader community is like I think they relate to the party going like and once you open that pandora's box of giving your daughter or your son a phone, it's really hard to put that back. Oh for sure, and so I guess probably what we'd say. At least you know again, we haven't been through middle school yet, so I don't want to pretend like we know what the heck we're talking about. But I think what we're doing right now is we're saying no phone until, like, we have a little flip phone that we, whenever austin goes anywhere, we kind of send them with that, just for like you know if you need to get a hold of us they can text and can call, but for the most part it's like you know you have to go through one one one or two, two, you know, to get to the the letters right
Speaker 1:um, so I feel like that, okay, so, so that's small T trauma in a. In a nutshell, big T trauma, much grander. So how do you deal? How do you walk people through the serious pieces of grief that that you've seen? Just maybe I can use your sister or like, how do you I've got someone that in our lives that has struggled with grief either the person listening, or they have someone they know what are really some steps that are they can take to kind of process that.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, I feel like the biggest thing, honestly and this is coming, I guess, somewhat from a professional opinion and somewhat from a personal just in my own life and what I've witnessed is, I think, the the the most important, and I guess maybe the first step is just allowing yourself to feel, your feels right, like there's such a most people, myself included, and I guess different personality types are different, but I would make the claim that most people try really hard to escape their feeling.
Speaker 3:Like if you're feeling intense sadness or anxiety or, um, you know anything. Really the tendency is to try, or the temptation, I guess, is to try to like. Well, I'm just not going to think about that, I'm going to move on.
Speaker 3:I'm going to whatever. Some people use coping mechanisms like drinking and addictions, but others just use busyness or numbing yourself out with TV or your phone. But very few people and I'm actually maybe the worst of this, very few people want to feel their feelings but really like that is truly the only way to work through and to heal is to first just like to feel it, to let yourself actually feel it, and not try to compartmentalize that or sweep it under the rug.
Speaker 1:Is that just a time thing? No, absolutely. And what I mean by that is I know it's like everyone has time, but what I mean by that is like I need to sit in my sadness. Yeah, I need to think like talk me through. I think, adrienne, you're actually a professional at this.
Speaker 2:Hang on. You just asked if it was a time thing. Do you mean like people aren't doing it because they don't think they have time? No, no.
Speaker 1:Meaning to do what she's talking about. It's a pure time of.
Speaker 2:I need to sit and I don't think it's time at all. I don't know a single friend that sits in emotions, that does it because they have time.
Speaker 1:So I think that no, but here's because of your prior I'm.
Speaker 2:What I'm saying is you have to prioritize the time for it, because you have to, you have to like, allow, your it's an allowing to go to a place that you're afraid to go to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would agree more with you, we're working so hard to find escapes.
Speaker 2:We have plenty of time. Our phone is an escape. Our alcohol is an escape, right.
Speaker 1:I guess I'm yeah, but you have to be intentional. Intentional with your time might be the better way to put that.
Speaker 2:No, but like, yes, but any group of women together, and be like hey, we're going to be intentional with how we feel they will all run. At least anyone that I like is going to run out of the room immediately, and so it's like there is a fear. It's not a matter of like.
Speaker 1:I just need this space. I guess I don't think of processing that with a group. I would think I need to process that by myself first, but maybe that's not the way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I 100% agree with you, adrienne.
Speaker 2:I think it's like you have to muster up the courage, almost to have to face things that you don't want to face and feel things that you don't want to feel, and you have to go to a counselor, I think, to start to break down, to even admit and explore what are your barriers. You're going to have to really verbally process barriers before you can even start considering allowing yourself to feel those feelings, because it's very common that a person who has suppressed all feeling they have no clue they want to feel feelings. They're like man.
Speaker 2:I wish I could feel sad right now. This is a sad thing. Or I feel really, and all they get is anger and they would like to sit and they have the time. They're ready to spend the time they don't they've, they're terrified of, of the indulgence or of the, the out of controlness, either way, I think, depending on a personality type, of what will come from experiencing those feelings, and so for some people, they just want to fix them. So instead of sitting and feeling the feelings, let's just go find a solution for what might be a bad feeling okay yeah and you know there's a so hold on.
Speaker 3:I just want to make sure, yeah phase one know what you feel is.
Speaker 1:That is that I don't. I don't want to overly make it this right, but technical, yeah, right.
Speaker 3:And I again. I mean I maybe I'm going overboard trying to give disclaimers, but I don't. I'm not trying right now to like I don't if there's like a formal here's step one, step two, step. I'm not trying right now to like I don't if there's like a formal here's step one, step two, step three. I'm not entirely sure and I'm not trying to say that I do, but I absolutely think the first step is what did you just say? To acknowledge you have a feeling to acknowledge it, but to um, but to feel it.
Speaker 1:I know it sounds like such a vague concept, but I think, if you— Listen, men in general are not sitting there like, let me feel my feelings, but acknowledging a feeling is not the same feeling.
Speaker 2:Well, neither am I to be honest and I'm a female.
Speaker 3:I don't like to feel my feelings. This is maybe like a—what are you laughing at?
Speaker 1:The studio audience is giving me a little smirk.
Speaker 3:Does the studio audience not like to feel their feelings? I think the studio audience is pretty privy to is pretty privy to.
Speaker 2:so, chris, do you ever sometimes get super mad? Sure, okay. So usually anger is a sign of a feeling that probably needed to be felt a lot sooner, before the anger came out. So this is kind of what we're hitting at. So would you say it's because of lack of time?
Speaker 1:It's due to lack of time, of being intentional about processing whatever the feeling is, or yeah, so like for me to go. Am I feeling anything right now? What am I feeling right now? Because I have done some like work of emotional journaling, like I feel sad today. I feel happy today and it feels kind of pointless in the moment, but probably because in about two seconds you're able to process it through and you sort of move on.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that might be actually the very thing that brings healing is that you sort of understand that you had something going on and you're registering whatever the things are and you're allowing yourself to feel it and then that's healthy processing that most people.
Speaker 1:in a day where you were not constantly plugged in with multiple inputs, you probably had a whole bunch of experiential feelings that because of the natural progression of the day, you work through a lot of different things, but because of all the sensory input, you're not able to, and so, therefore, you put everything on hold until, all of a sudden, you're getting, you're, you're getting a, uh, an input that is causing fight, flight or freeze response, and you have not processed all the other ones. So you have a backup and it caused an explosion.
Speaker 2:So I think that some people I think that is definitely a huge chunk of people and maybe I would say that's men, but I don't want to say I don't know. I don't know if I would go that far to say it's a certain gender.
Speaker 1:It's not stereotypical, but I think that that's.
Speaker 2:I think some people are living life so fast paced and they're fully willing to feel feelings, but they just truly, just don't stop long enough to feel them, and that might I think you might be in that category possibly.
Speaker 3:I think it's probably two different. I think it's that what you just said. And then I think there are some people and I have fallen into this category of being afraid to feel your feelings. I went through this very strange thing I don't know how else to describe it. I feel like it was just such a strange experience. But when I was in I guess it was like the summer between seventh and eighth grade I went through this really weird thing where all of a sudden cause I grew up in a Christian household. I accepted Christ when I was six. At this like church I went to like a Southern Baptist church and it was like a revive. They call it like a revival you know, like a revival for kids.
Speaker 3:And so that's when I became a Christian. And then, you know, just kind of like went on through life being a Christian from like age six until this random summer where all of a sudden I was like I don't know, do I even believe any of this stuff, like have I just like said I believe it because my parents.
Speaker 3:Do you just drank the Kool-Aid? Yeah, did I just drink the Kool-Aid. And I was like finding myself thinking about, like you know, things in the Bible where I'm like that just seems really unbelievable. I'm not really sure I actually believe this. And then that made me feel afraid because I'm like, oh my gosh, for one thing, am I actually a Christian? For another, are my parents going to be horrified if they find out that, like I'm not sure I believe the things that you guys believe? And so that whole summer a couple of things. One I went into this in hindsight it almost feels like a very kind of strange obsession, but I was like pouring over like apologetic type of book.
Speaker 3:I mean, I'm in like the seventh grade, so this is like my rest of my friends are like swimming and, you know, doing normal summer stuff, and I guess that could have been a good thing. It's good to like explore faith for yourself and find answers to your questions, but this took on, I feel, like almost an unhealthy, like an obsession where I'm like I'm going to make sure I depression. Before I've been sad in my life, but I had never been what you would call like okay, I'm in an actual state of depression and I actually never have been since then, but that one summer it felt like I was in a black hole, like I couldn't. Nothing felt the same. I felt like I was like kind of in this like parallel universe to everyone else, where I felt like I'm in my own black hole world over here, while everyone else is being normal by the end of the summer. I guess the positive thing is I did come out of that summer feeling like okay, I think my faith is my own. I believe this stuff Like it's not just a drinking the Kool-Aid thing. My faith became authentic. So that was good.
Speaker 3:However, the thing that was bad is I so much hated that feeling of spiraling into this emotion that I could not get out of, and my parents tried everything.
Speaker 3:They took me on like trips that summer, they like set up all this fun stuff with friends trying to kind of pull me out of whatever this weird funk was that I was in and nothing worked, like I just stayed in that depression and then I did eventually kind of come out of it and, like I said, I've never felt like that since then, but I so much hated how that felt.
Speaker 3:I think it scared me to like the concept of like, oh my gosh, you could like lose yourself in an emotion and not be able to come out of it, and so I don't know if that makes sense. But since then I've gone through things like, you know, a pretty traumatic divorce and my mom was diagnosed with fairly late stage cancer. Pretty traumatic divorce and my mom was diagnosed with fairly late stage cancer, and I have felt feelings about both of those things. But I have felt a true fear of letting myself fully feel either of those things, for fear that if I do, will I sink into some kind of a thing that I you know what I- mean Can't pull myself out of, can't pull myself out of, and I think maybe a lot of people feel that way and so it's easier to be like okay, I'm just not going to feel that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is that the people who just listen to Christmas music whenever they used to?
Speaker 2:We used to have this friend that was like something happened, something mildly negative happened, and she was like I just need to go listen to Christmas music for the rest of the day and I was like, oh my gosh, it was so disturbing. But, chris, I think that this, you guys are a contrast and I kind of want to hear, because what Kaylee's describing is like an awareness of awareness of this doubt, an awareness of the feeling that negative feelings can start to have power over you, and I relate to that. But when I look at you and your tendencies, I think it is different. But I'm I'm curious because people who just don't ever that are just living, kind of not having time.
Speaker 1:One could argue that you keep saying I'm not. I'm not saying that's me.
Speaker 2:Oh really, I'm suggesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Tell me how. It's not you. Oh really, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:What I mean is I'm not saying I don't have time to feel anything. What I what I meant was like you need to make time to sit there in your feelings.
Speaker 2:So I guess my question for you is when you haven't made that time and you sometimes have like you get super angry, you're super frustrated in in the process of something that's really not your, it's really not the problem. Like I feel like you do have some history of having a bit of a, of a. No, I mean this, all of us do this but like you'll get really frustrated in a situation and that thing that you're frustrated about really just isn't it isn't the thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so when that happens to you, do you think that's a result of an over busy schedule? That that's why you haven't been feeling feelings?
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe. Or it could be that I didn't think to be intentional about the feelings that I was having.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, I because I don't Interesting, it's like so when. So as maybe this is part as men and there's a really good, healthy part of this act like men. It's a bio verse. So at some point you go, and that doesn't mean turn off your emotions. But what I think can happen is you something happens and you tell yourself not a big deal, like you know, somebody that was supposed to show up on time didn't, and I'm sitting here at a meeting and I'm like crud, they did not value me.
Speaker 1:And you're like nah, no big deal. Then the next thing you have ah happened, not a big deal and you don't process like that. That, oh that hurt my feelings. Yes, because it was such a minor thing.
Speaker 1:I guess it's death by a thousand cuts yeah, you don't know that, because because again, there's it's, you know this is the small t trauma. It's like you, you don't think that that's even an issue, because who has time to process something that dumb? Like someone didn't show up in time to meet you and so therefore you're late to this thing and that made you rush this thing, and then you felt bad about being the next thing and so you can't even go back to a real reason why you're upset, uh, later, until all of a sudden, the end of the day. Then you know you, as my wife comes in and says, how come you're above and they go. It's like, well, you don't understand, nobody cares, and like you, as a safe person, get the wrath of all the other, death of a thousand cuts because I couldn't really get at them, or you know Well, and it's easier like I do this to you as well right?
Speaker 2:So it's easier to come at your spouse than to sit there and go. Oh, I think my feelings are hurt. And I've been feeling kind of like I've been just responding to other people all day and I feel like I've been absorbing some of the feelings and so, but my still my question is-.
Speaker 1:I think for me is I spend a lot of my day as a pastor responding and not a lot of time initiating, and I think that that can be difficult for me to then be able to understand what emotions are actually my own, because if.
Speaker 1:I'm sitting in somebody else's emotions, I'm like, yeah, that's really hard, I don't know how you do it. Uh, then eventually I I'm a little bit of a chameleon, I just take on whatever your emotions are. I'm like I feel that whatever you're, whatever you're feeling, and so it masks my own ability to see my own emotion. So if you're a responder in general, you have no idea what you feel, because you're feeling everybody else's feelings and you're really great at being in the moment with other people, just really terrible being with yourself, which is then why you blow up at somebody who's and then you're like, and you just sort of give it to them.
Speaker 3:I'm not too offended.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense, yeah it does make sense.
Speaker 2:So I would argue here that we've introduced a third category. I think you have people that just are like I'm so busy, I don't have time, and then you have people in this category, which is they are so in the moment.
Speaker 1:And I think I'm in the moment.
Speaker 2:I am totally a person in the moment, which is really wonderful, but I think you said it, or you've been kind of saying this this whole time that you have to be intentional to create time, and so that's where I would almost argue a person who's afraid to feel their feelings I would almost argue like a person who's afraid to feel their feelings.
Speaker 1:That's not a solution for them, but for somebody like you who is just super present and with a bunch of people, that's why, for me, getting in the time in the morning alone with the Lord, where nobody else is there, I get to respond to the Lord.
Speaker 1:Now I'm not saying I do this perfectly, but you know the first 30 minutes is just, you know, at least supposed to be is me, is me with God, listening to the Lord without the Bible, with nothing? No, nothing, just silence. And in a room and Lucy Liu barking in the next room because I'm not going to get her out, like that's kind of like the intentionality I'm talking about. That I think for me I need to have, and when I don't get that a lot, or if, like, if it gets interrupted because you know someone needed an early morning meeting or whatever, I'm like, ah crud, I forgot.
Speaker 2:And that's hard for me, yeah. So I think that's really good. So I think that there's people who are are just truly like. Maybe they've, and maybe I would argue that the busy people are afraid to feel, so the busyness is a coping yes, can I?
Speaker 1:I want to get back to the trauma thing let's do it okay because I wanted we got step one was acknowledged. We just kind of we beat that one to the ground. I think we nailed it Well not only acknowledge, but like feel the feelings Acknowledge feel. Acknowledge feel. Okay, then what? But?
Speaker 3:yeah, then I do think and I was going to say that earlier there is kind of a thin line right, because as much as I'm going to argue and I'm going feelings, feeling your feelings adequately feeling your feelings, not escaping them not trying to rush through the feeling, but like sitting in and feeling your feelings, but you're right, like at some point you don't want to wallow, right Like you can stay in it too long.
Speaker 3:Um, and I'm not giving any specific amount of time, I'm sure it's different for everybody and every experience and what the trauma was, so there's not like a set timeline, but I do feel like at some point okay, now it's time to like start healing, so you could like stay in a place where you just forever keep feeling it, and that's not going to be healthy either.
Speaker 3:And so I do think then the next step is to and I'm not this isn't like a plug for counseling, because maybe that's not the right thing for everyone to go see a counselor, but I do think you need to find somebody, and I do think a counselor could be a good person, somebody that can help you, cause sometimes you you might feel the feelings, but you aren't entirely certain. What is the feeling? Like I am sitting in my feelings. I'm feeling this yucky feeling. I don't want to feel. I'm not trying to gloss over it or numb it out, but I am a little sure of like what are the components of what I'm feeling? Is it anger purely, or is it anger mixed with, um, you know, sadness and grief, like? And so I do think a, a counselor, or at least a very wise person can help you, uh, identify what is the thing.
Speaker 1:Acknowledge the feeling, feel the feeling, confess the thing. Acknowledge the feeling, feel the feeling, confess the feeling. I don't know.
Speaker 3:Just talk about the feelings that were processed with someone that is, you know, a person that's a good person to help you process.
Speaker 1:Okay, good Acknowledge, feel process, I think is that three steps and you're going to be healed. Obviously, I know it takes more of that, but I feel like that's a good starting point.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then I would actually add a fourth thing too. This has been something huge that I have learned in my own personal experience in recent years. Like you're, are you giving him funny looks? Are we out of time or something?
Speaker 2:No, I thought I heard um, I thought I heard something, but also I was you're good, everything's good. I like that. Chris is getting a formula set.
Speaker 1:No, I was just processing my feelings, the need for a formula that we were about to do. It's like okay, move on. Step four Listen, in a short amount of time, we want to get people practical helpful step acknowledge feel process, boom, yes.
Speaker 3:And then I would say, as far as, like, once you do start the process of healing I know in my own life I have I used to always think that okay, until I let me think of how to word this I guess just embracing the concept of both right, like I can still feel sad or enjoy or experience anything good because there's all this bad. And maybe once the bad is gone and I don't feel any anger anymore or any sadness anymore, then I can enjoy and be happy and appreciate.
Speaker 1:but like, really you actually can and have to do both.
Speaker 3:It is. But I mean I spent a lot of years thinking, um, okay, once this, whatever it was, honestly, at this point in life, like most of my really hard things have only happened in the last like four years kind of skated through life. Not that nothing bad happened, but I would say I skated through life with fairly minor problems and then in the last four or five years like really big ones. But even in those years of just minor problems I remember constantly thinking like okay, once this is over this, like parenting struggle this season this season.
Speaker 3:then I'm going to like really enjoy life and like count my blessings, and then you know that would maybe end and then there would be a different one. And I think, okay, well, I think, once we're whatever through the little kid years, then I'm going to like really we're going to be happy and we're going to enjoy this. That is true though, and in recent years I have learned like, no, like there's going to literally always be something else.
Speaker 1:Adrienne, do you feel that about getting through the little kid years?
Speaker 2:Listen, I am tracking with Haley because I don't think a formula solves this problem.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, I think that you're going to go home tonight and fight over this.
Speaker 1:I don't think formulas solve it.
Speaker 2:Let me go through. Can I give a personal example? Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Go ahead.
Speaker 2:Give me a personal example so we could use children but, let's not.
Speaker 3:Let's just use our own children. We already have Pound it, so let's go to marriage, okay so?
Speaker 2:in a marriage, you may have desires of your spouse, so so I may desire, hypothetically, that I had a spouse that was able to like chill, like just hang out and not need a plan and not need to start time in an end time and a schedule, just like, just kind of like, let's spend time together and enjoy ourselves. I might desire that. Okay, I do desire that, but what I have is someone who's very high energy and wants to be very intentional and wants to create value out of everything that we're doing and wants to be with me, absolutely wants to be with me, absolutely wants to be with me.
Speaker 3:He wants a formula for enjoyment. What are the steps for us to enjoy our time?
Speaker 2:together he's creating some value and that we're doing the right thing and that I'm, for sure, going to be happy at the end of this time. And I think what I've learned to do is I could sit and I could be like man. I'm just so bummed. Maybe someday, when Chris learns how to just chill out, we'll be able to have fun together. And, oh, I could just sit and focus on where there's a desire that is partially unmet, or I could sit there and focus on man.
Speaker 2:I am so grateful that I have a husband that wants to hang out with me. I'm super grateful that he lets me kind of decide everything that we do, because he doesn't really think about fun things to do. I'm the person thinking about fun things to do, so I get to just think of them and we go do them and I don't have to really like argue about that. I like that. So I can sit there and I can come up with a list twice as long as of of things about our marriage dynamic that are great, that are worth celebrating, that are worth being thankful for, and I can live there and I can enjoy that, or I can choose to live in the negative.
Speaker 2:But what I've learned is if I try to ignore the negative, I'm constantly hurt by the fact that it exists.
Speaker 2:So if I try to ignore that and if I try to say, oh, I'm not going to sit in some discouragement of how I wish we could just chill out more effortlessly, I'm like no, I have to admit, I have to acknowledge and feel like, man, that's kind of a bummer, because it's a little bit more work for us to have just downtime, because it's a little bit harder to get it going Well. But I'm, and I, and if I acknowledge some disappointment in that I'm then able to like move past it. Otherwise I'm kind of stuck in it and when I see evidence of it being hard, or I see evidence of of resting being a challenge for you, I'm like re-discouraged, and, and so I think that the way to like move on and move forward into the positivity is to sit there and acknowledge the feeling, acknowledge and feel the feeling and then and then process, but then sit there and find a find a lot of blessings that are real.
Speaker 2:I'm not manufacturing fake blessings. I'm not coming up with things I say are good that are fake. They're very real, but I have to live there.
Speaker 1:Right, and so for me.
Speaker 2:I had to feel sad.
Speaker 1:I had to feel sad that when I wrote a prayer journal for you that took me over 18 months to complete and. I prayed for you every week and then you felt hurt by the fact that it wasn't deep enough or specific enough, that I would not get hurt by that, yeah, you might've had a desire.
Speaker 1:I might've had a desire that you would really feel honored that I prayed for you for over a year and wrote down every prayer and then gave it to you after that time, thinking that I was being really specific and praying for you because I love you so much, and then to hear that you just felt like it was a nothing was really difficult and I let you know that it was really hard for me to hear.
Speaker 1:This has taken a really different turn than what we anticipated it was great because I was able to process with Adrian that she was allowed to feel however she wanted you did an actually phenomenal job.
Speaker 2:I was very it does sound really sweet actually. Actually, let me give a little bit of context.
Speaker 3:I'm kind of like most of the time in these conversations I'm kind of like team Adrian, but on this one, based on what I hear so far. I'm team Chris.
Speaker 2:I can just save the day for a moment. So Chris has a heart for praying scripture over people and he if you have ever served as an elder, a deacon or um, been in a discipleship group with him, which Chris is typically in three at once then you get a prayer journal and there's a stack about this tall that sits in his office at home and he's very disciplined, which is very admirable. It is wonderful. It's something I don't do myself and he's disciplined at writing in them and he prays scripture over all the different people and when you pray scripture over somebody you pray for what the scripture is communicating.
Speaker 1:Not necessarily what they were wanting to hear.
Speaker 2:Well, no, not necessarily without necessarily any thought in their life of what may be going on or what you might desire for them, but it's what God, through scripture, said, which is wonderful. Yeah, of somebody receiving. It would mean if Mr Cody wrote me a prayer journal of praying scripture over me and everybody else on his worship team and I received it, I'd be like, wow, this was really thoughtful, like he thought about me and prayed for me and that would mean a lot and my friends have received this from Chris and it's meant a lot to them for that exact reason. But as a spouse it felt kind of like, ooh, this is a little, this is hitting a little different. And when I pray for my husband, I'm praying for really intimate things that I that I have thought about and I'm like I wonder if Chris has thoughts like that. I don't really know that he does, because I don't, but that's okay.
Speaker 1:That's in the unwritten prayer time.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's true, right. So I was working through that and you were working through a normal, natural deployment.
Speaker 3:And so we had, but like we had a healthy, like you did, I did, I was like very sad and I felt full sad full depression, sad you did, and then in it and acknowledge it too, and then uh, then we talked it through like we first acknowledged it felt processed. And what was the fourth one? The fourth one was being willing to embrace, like, moving on, you're going to maybe still feel some bad things, and what I said was like you know, the things I love about you is that you don't really love systems.
Speaker 1:You're fun in the moment. And the thing I think you love about me is I'm not. I am very systematized. I can, I'm not going to think about until it's on the schedule to think about it, and that's when I get to think about it. And I think you can appreciate that because, like how we have money in the bank and how, like you can go and buy whatever random things you're buying At Ross today, but I had some birthday money.
Speaker 2:Okay, but you're right, I don't always have birthday money for the record, but here's the thing.
Speaker 3:So you're exactly right for the record. But here's the thing. So you're exactly right.
Speaker 2:but you're exactly right and we did have to go through and then I had to sit and feeling like this is a bummer, but I actually felt way closer to you after we had that conversation. Because you leaned into the heart right Instead of just trying to escape the heart and I and I, I am actually super grateful.
Speaker 1:I never intended for Chris to know this, but it happened accidentally. Yeah, because the Lord revealed it through all. You're talking about me to your friends on your phone about how I my worthless prayers.
Speaker 2:No, that is not what I said. You're worthless prayers, All right.
Speaker 3:All right, all right.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we? I think we've.
Speaker 2:I think we have, but I do think this was a big deal and I think sitting in it and leaning into it because technically, accept feel process.
Speaker 3:Yes yes, and we embrace the good and the bad sit in the bad, but also sit in the good too. Don't let the bad blind you to the good right but I guess, also, don't let the good make you, you know just negative.
Speaker 1:I I had this experience, I think I mentioned this a youth pastor, another church, like how you doing like, oh, I'm hanging in there? And he's like, oh, hanging in there. And then all of a sudden I was like yeah, life's horrible and I went down this weird rabbit trail of how bad my life was.
Speaker 2:And it wasn't actually that bad.
Speaker 1:And every time I saw that one guy I was like now people.
Speaker 3:You're like.
Speaker 1:I've presented the. Now I want to avoid him because he must think my life's awful.
Speaker 3:You're in his prayer journal. He's for sure got a prayer journal for you.
Speaker 1:I'm just like, oh my gosh, I'm like every time I see him I have to talk about how bad my life is.
Speaker 3:It's not that bad.
Speaker 1:I just pigeonholed myself on one comment that I didn't mean to say.
Speaker 2:And then, anyway, I didn't really said hanging in there to anybody until that day.
Speaker 3:No, I say it all the time he definitely thinks y'all are like on the verge of divorce or something.
Speaker 2:That's what he walked away thinking yeah, he probably did All right.
Speaker 1:Hey, I hate we have to wrap. We have like a full hour just by sitting here. I just kind of zipped away. Yeah, all right, listen, hey, listen if you want to get a hold of Haley, you can email counseling at wellsbranchchurchcom. We will connect you to her. She still has room right.
Speaker 3:I do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she still has room in her counseling schedule and I want you because she's really gifted, she's really good and she's really fun, as you can tell, like a very functional human being that can talk to you about like real life stuff and you're not just ethereal, so I really do appreciate that. So make sure, if you need help, uh, email us at counseling at wellsbranchchurchcom. We're going to connect you to Haley. We'd love to get you connected and that counseling is free, by the way, and we're excited for that. Yep, hey, if you have any, 231-0605. We would love to hear from you on anything talking about faith, culture and everything in between. Listen from our house to yours. Have an awesome week. Love worship.