Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
The Nuances of Gender Roles: Debating Women's Purpose in Society and the Church
301: When NFL kicker Harrison Butker took the stage with his take on women's roles in society, he ignited a firestorm of debate that couldn't be ignored. Pastor Mo and Leah Brown join Pastor Plek and Adrienne in this episode to dissect the underpinnings of this discourse, tackling the question of whether a woman's purpose is confined to marriage and motherhood. They wrestle with the balance between individualism and traditional values, diving into the complex web of gender roles, spiritual beliefs, and the challenges that come with marrying personal fulfillment and family commitments.
Got questions? Text us at 737-231-0605!
Like, share, and subscribe! We love seeing and responding to your reviews and comments.
Support the show: https://wbcc.churchcenter.com/giving
And welcome back to Pastor Plek's podcast. I'm your host, Pastor Plek, and joining me in the hot seats today is none other than Pastor Muhammad Ali, sometimes known as Cassius Clay. So grateful to have you with us back on the show Good to be here. Yeah, and also none other than sweet and caring. Leah Brown, so glad to have you back on the show, just really ready for some of your hot takes of what we're going to talk about today.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:And then none other than Mrs Adrienne Pleganpull. Welcome back, ready for a little bit of spice coming from the left over here, so excited for your perspective we're going to be talking about. One of the big things that has hit media recently is Harrison Butker.
Speaker 1:Now, for those of you who don't know who Harrison Butker is, he is the three-time Super Bowl champion, kansas City Chief, who just gave an incredible speech at or what some might debatably say is incredible speech at a Catholic university which I think he graduated from, and he had said some pretty crazy, culturally sensitive things that got a lot of people fired up, a lot of people angry, a lot of people motivated and excited. In fact, his someone might need to help me out His Jersey sales skyrocketed by like 200% or 200,000% or something insane, uh, ever since his speech went viral. So the guy is totally, um, kind of a hot button topic right now, so I want to get into it. He did say some things and maybe, pastor Mo, can you talk to me about what he said about women, and then we're going to toss it to Leah so that she can just totally give her perspective as a woman, a career woman, as a woman who was advancing beyond her peers and was crushing it as a female.
Speaker 3:Hey, you're spoiling it. No spoilers, pastor Platt, sorry.
Speaker 2:Go ahead. All right, let me read you this paragraph yeah. And then he switches and he says for the ladies present today, congratulations on an amazing accomplishment. You should be proud of all that. You've achieved this point in your young lives. I want to speak directly to you briefly, because I think it's you, the women, who have had the most diabolical lies told to you. How many of you are sitting here now about to cross the stage and are thinking about all the promotions and titles you're going to get in your career. Some of you may go on to lead successful careers in the world, but I would venture to guess that the majority of you are most excited about your marriage and the children you will bring into this world. He continues in that same kind of thought.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in fact he said I cannot be overstated that all of my success is made possible because a girl I met back in middle school will convert to the faith, become my wife. Embrace one of the most important titles of all homemaker, homemaker. Yep, all right. Leah Brown.
Speaker 3:Well, what do you guys think about?
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, no, no as the woman here.
Speaker 3:Here I don't know if I'm allowed to speak first and give my opinion first, so you know what, I grant you permission oh, okay under under his headship that's not condescending good, good all. Right now I feel free to to voice my thoughts.
Speaker 3:Listen, I've actually been waiting to talk about this to somebody, anybody that will listen, because I have a very strong opinions on it. The conservative world is blowing up over this. First of all, it kind of annoys me, but they're all like anytime a celebrity or anyone semi-famous kind of says anything about Jesus and it gets traction, then everybody just wants to kind of grasp onto it and they want to make it like, make this person like an idol, a hero, and it always kind of bothers me a little bit. So I see that happening with him and it's like yeah, yeah, we can praise him, let's be excited. But whatever, I'm not that excited and here's why oh, not that excited.
Speaker 3:I just I disagree. I think it's very short-sighted and naive for him to stand at the front of the stage and to tell these women the majority of you are probably most excited about your marriage and your future title as homemaker and having kids. Now, look, those are very, very good things, but they're not for everyone. They're not. We know that. They're not biologically for everyone. It doesn't actually work for everyone and people get are you going to? You have something to say?
Speaker 1:No, I'm waiting patiently over here for my rebuttal. Go ahead.
Speaker 3:If you are a young woman graduating college and you're sitting there being told with a subtext of your life will begin when you get married and have kids, I think that is a really bad message to send women.
Speaker 1:Okay, why is that? Let's get into that.
Speaker 3:Those are very good and valuable things, but I think the ultimate message that women, especially Christian women, need to be hearing is that God has a purpose for your life to glorify him, and there are a million ways in which you can do that, and you can do that right now. It can start today, if it hasn't already, and embrace that Right now. It can start today, if it hasn't already, and embrace that. But so many women are subject, victim to the mentality of nothing can happen for you as a Christian woman, especially until marriage, until you're a mother you haven't arrived. Until you're married, you haven't arrived until you have children, and that's just unequivocally false. Those are beautiful things. Homemaker's a beautiful profession. They're good, but they're not ultimate. And he made them incredibly ultimate and it really bothers me because I've seen so many people fall prey to that lie and it cripples them.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I hear that. I hear that and I'm not disagreeing with you. But the culture has said women, you don't need a man. It's kind of raising up you are completely fine without a man, without a home. You can get a sperm donor, have your own kid, do your own thing. There is no reason for you to, and I think that's what he's addressing. So I think you're right that that probably most people don't have a theology of singleness at all. Like and this is where I think it's a little unfair. Granted, he was on a public stage and so everything's fair in public speaking. So he, he, he misses a huge swath of the population that could be single and glorify God in their singleness being a light in the dark.
Speaker 3:No, no, he's talking to college graduates. How many of them do you think were married? Zero, probably, less than 1% Sure sure, not the audience.
Speaker 1:But where are the majority of them going? I think that's what he's meaning.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you're more excited about your future marriage. I think that's what he's meaning. Yeah, you're more excited about your future marriage.
Speaker 3:I think that's probably what he was implying when he said the word marriage, I think he said that. I think he even said future marriage Right.
Speaker 4:So but here I have thoughts. I have so many thoughts. Are you ready for my?
Speaker 1:thoughts. Nobody's asking. Let me just finish the thought. So I do think to be called on, yeah, no, that's good. So I think he misses the theology of singleness. He is maybe short-sighted in talking to single people about the greatest thing that can happen is to be married, but I do feel like we have lowered the view of family so low that I think when he lifts it up, that should make conservative people go. Finally somebody.
Speaker 3:I agree, but is that even the ultimate thing? No, it's not the ultimate thing, but I think it's lifting it from like. But in Christian conservative culture we have been making that the ultimate thing, and I think he fell prey to that. The ultimate thing is glorifying God and serving God, and you can do that in so many ways. And when you start trying to narrow the focus and tell Christians they can only do it in this way or this is the best way to do it, I think that that's dangerous.
Speaker 1:I agree, listen for every Paul or for every. I don't know if Phoebe was married but, like you, know if you have somebody that's willing to serve the church. My great-grand-aunt I know that seems weird, she was a missionary to Denver, to the poor Aunt Gladys lived her life for Jesus as a missionary. I think that's beautiful but honestly, that's such a small part of the population, am I right?
Speaker 4:Am I invited yet?
Speaker 1:You're invited, go ahead.
Speaker 4:Can I just speak as somebody who did have this ideology? Okay, so can I just speak as somebody who did have this?
Speaker 1:ideology Okay.
Speaker 4:So I which ideology?
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is the the?
Speaker 4:ideology that this is the ultimate thing.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 4:That being a mom, being a wife, was the ultimate end, all be all. I believe that since I was like, since I can remember memories, so I would say since four years old, I wanted to be a mom more than I wanted to do anything, and I had no desire to be anything more than or anything other than that. And I, um, I was raised. I was taught that I would go to a Christian university and that that is where I would meet my future husband. It wasn't a if, if. This is the will of God, it was. This is what, this is what happens, this is what will happen, and the reason we're saving money and we're sacrificing our lifestyle today to send you to this particular Christian university is so you will meet a husband there, because everyone in my family, both sides of my aunts and uncles, my parents, everybody had that. That's what happened.
Speaker 1:But again, I'm not saying but I think we need to value that there's some goodness to that.
Speaker 3:So absolutely there's goodness to that, yes, that there's some goodness to that. So, absolutely, there's goodness to it.
Speaker 4:I grew up believing that this was what's going to happen. And and it didn't happen. And why was I not attractive enough was my personality? Too much was my? I had the desire.
Speaker 1:I, I had the desire, I had the so what you're saying is like when it didn't happen, it caused something negative in you, because the ultimate thing wasn't God's glory, it was in this.
Speaker 4:It wasn't even that I was after an ultimate thing, it was like this is the only thing. This is the next step. There is no next step beyond this. So, then, what happened to me is I watched, as many of my friends did find mates and people that were not believers and people that were, and I remember being so concerned.
Speaker 4:I thought, oh, my word. I said I could do this, I could, I could find a man here that would be willing to marry me, but they wouldn't be able to lead me spiritually. They're not somebody that I respect. They're not somebody with any habits that I would desire, and I know my parents don't desire that for me. When the this whole plan that they've spoken over me of going to this.
Speaker 4:Christian university and getting married wasn't so I could settle on just any man. And I got there and I, there was, there was no. I mean, there was maybe a couple of guys who I thought, oh yeah, I could respect them, I could follow them, but there wasn't a compatibility that was there, and I think that that's where I struggled so much with. I'm now graduating and now what? So I have no option. It's, it's the it's. I felt very strongly that it's not my job to go pursue a man.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:I had. There was lots of men that I would have married. I could have gone and pursued them. How would that have gone over? That would? That would have been the wrong move right Right right.
Speaker 4:And so I felt very much aligned with this ideology that it's my job to wait for God to send somebody. And I did believe that God had not sent that. And so what happens then is now I have to provide for myself. My parents have made it very clear I'm not welcome back at home to not be provided for, and I need to find a way to be self-sustaining, to live on my own. And so the narrative quickly went from you're finding your spouse to you're on your own and you need to figure out a way to. You need to get a career and you need to provide for yourself, and I had no problem doing that. Thankfully, I had a college degree. I immediately got into a teaching job. The whole reason I majored in teaching was because I didn't want a career, but I thought, well, I might as well, if I'm going to go down the path of career, I can pick a career that's conducive to at least being home with kids before and after school and over the summer.
Speaker 1:So can I at least say this, and I would love for Leah's perspective on this Men have grown up to be adult children and I think I think part of that. I'm not that I'm not going to blame women I don't want to make that a blame but because women have been so cheered on, get the degree, get ahead, do all the things, go, go, go, and then they marry men that are children who don't have the ability to provide, they don't have the ability to have foresight, and they almost become another child in the home. Has anyone seen that? Or maybe have foresight and they, they, they almost become another child in the home. Would you? Is that? Has anyone seen that? Or maybe you're like no, that is in your own world, in your own head.
Speaker 3:I'm okay with with, with that being the case, I agree that that's has become the case in a lot of situations. It's the what's the solution to that? That? I think we, well I'm sure we don't disagree, but it sounds like women.
Speaker 3:Stepping aside and not living in their calling and not living in their giftings and not giving everything of their heart, mind, body and soul to live for Jesus is not the solution for childish men. That, in fact, should call men to a higher standard rather than make them comfortable kind of living in a submissive way.
Speaker 1:But do you think women sometimes to your point you didn't do this, but they're like I got to have a man to be married. They're still in you because it's probably natural for a majority of ladies to want to get married. So you just pick one and all of a sudden you've picked one that sort of looked Christian and then all of a sudden you find yourself in a miserable marriage because you were trying to follow the culture and Christianity at the same time. I think that's the part where it gets really hard. Is that fair or no?
Speaker 3:I'm not sure I'm totally following the point.
Speaker 1:To Adrienne's point, I want to be in a my Christian church. The church says get married, that's an honorable thing, pursue that. The culture says women, there is no limits, go for it. In fact, I would probably say the church says that, like you can do, god has called you to do whatever. But then you want to have CEO, and then you want to have husband, and then the husband, that sort of attracted the CEO woman I'm not going to say it's all times is going to be kind of like a little bit, he doesn't have the ability to provide or he's going to be another kid in the family. Is that too extreme?
Speaker 3:I just don't think that it's mutually exclusive, like in the way you're painting that picture. I think that, women, it's a good thing to desire marriage, it's a biblical thing to desire marriage. It's a biblical thing to desire marriage and it's a good thing to pursue marriage. And if something like being a CEO gets in the way of honoring God in your marriage and in your family and as a mother, then that thing needs to go. I'm not saying that you don't weigh your commitments, but you weigh them up against. The rubric of my life is about glorifying God, and am I doing that?
Speaker 3:And there's a million ways to do that.
Speaker 1:And I think I think that's where you and I totally agree, and I think that I think the perspective that Harrison, that the reason why I was a shock is that someone came out and said, hey, one of the greatest things you can do is be a homemaker, and I think I think that hasn't been said publicly in a long time well, that's not true, though it's being said, and here's the cultural subtext that that is important to understand.
Speaker 3:It's being said all over the internet. It's completely online.
Speaker 1:There's this massive trad wife movement going on telling women but I think that's a counter, countercultural revolution it's a swing, the, the, it's a countercultural revolution.
Speaker 3:It's a swing.
Speaker 1:It's a counterculture.
Speaker 3:The trad wife movement is a massive swing of the pendulum to the other side, against feminism.
Speaker 1:And I understand that, and it's led by women, which is the wild part.
Speaker 3:No, it's not. It's not. It's led by the red pill men. It's led by Andrew Tate and such.
Speaker 1:It really is Andrew Tate not a good guy.
Speaker 3:But it's these red pill men that don't believe in a healthy complementarian marriage and they're pushing this extreme patriarchal view and the trad wives are kind of falling in line and believing, and there's so many church leaders getting behind it. I don't know if I can even keep talking about that.
Speaker 1:No, I think calvin's really wanting you to share, because this is very important. He's like let me, let me show how great my mom is I lost my train, okay so, but what you're saying is like the trad wife counter culture was not led by women, it's led by guys like andrew.
Speaker 3:Well, that's a part of my argument. I'm saying that the online conversation right now is women. What you need to do is make sourdough bread, right, and you need to wake up at 5 am and collect all the eggs from the chickens, and you need to wear your prairie dress and you're not allowed to read the Bible and you're not allowed to teach the Bible. Don't even speak the Bible out loud. Because you're a woman. You probably don't even have the Holy Spirit in you. To be honest, with you.
Speaker 1:I think only men have it. I'm not exaggerating. That seems so crazy to me. It's everywhere, it is there, it's infiltrating conservative Christianity.
Speaker 3:It's everywhere. Okay, fair enough, harrison Bucker is probably on board with all of that. Okay, fair enough, and so, and Harrison Bucker is probably like, on board with all of that.
Speaker 1:No, I bet you, Harrison Bucker doesn't have a theological bone in his body other than like, and this is why, like, his whole speech was made up of just theological inconsistencies. The only thing that was was conservative. I think that's what we can all agree. Hey, that was a conservative talk. Theologically it's all over the place.
Speaker 2:I mean, this is what he literally said. She's the primary educator to our children. She's the one who ensures that I never let football or my business become a distraction. She's the person that knows me best.
Speaker 3:So yeah, he's very empowering.
Speaker 2:Here's what he says. And it is through our marriage that, lord willing, we will both attain salvation. Yeah, that's where I'm just like bro Theologically. Yeah, he's a mess.
Speaker 1:Theologically, harrison Bunker is an absolute disaster, but I do appreciate him espousing Catholic views so we can see what Catholic views are. I mean, that's helpful and those are traditional Catholic views that he's espousing, which there is a hope of salvation. There is no assurance of salvation, which is its own problem itself. But, to be fair, let's go back to a woman's I don't want to say woman's place, but a woman's role and all that Because I really do appreciate that what you said, that we need to call women in their single times, in their season of singleness, to be the best God-glorifying single person on the planet, where their focus is the Lord, not any man until they're married, in which Paul said your perspective, your vision, your mind is split between Jesus and your husband, because that's the way that goes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and here's the other thing about it that I think is really important to be said you can and I'm speaking as somebody who did leave a very fulfilling and meaningful career.
Speaker 1:Doing conservative things, mind you yes.
Speaker 3:To stay home with my kids, because that was a conviction that God put on my heart.
Speaker 1:Was that when you did that talk? Can you walk through how you came to that conclusion real quick? The Holy.
Speaker 3:Spirit. Women do in fact have him what they have submitted to jesus as lord and savior. He died on the cross for your sins, blah, blah.
Speaker 3:Okay, I mean, the holy spirit independently convicted my heart and was like look, this is what I want you to do. This is going to be satisfying. It's going to be difficult, but it's. It's where I'm calling you right now, leah brown, that's where I'm calling you right now. There's not a prescription for every woman, every mother, everywhere, anyway, but what I wanted to say was so I'm speaking from that perspective, I'm calling you right now. It's not a prescription for every woman, every mother, everywhere, anyway, but what I wanted to say was so I'm speaking from that perspective, but women can submit to this lifestyle that I think Harrison Butker is evangelizing and a lot of, like I said, the trad wife culture is evangelizing you can absolutely do all the things and you can do them without bringing god any glory right, because you're doing them for the wrong reasons and so you're.
Speaker 3:It's just as possible to live that way as it is to live in in a career. It's it's no more holy than having a career. It's no more holy than any other calling that god can put on your life because you can do it with the wrong motives. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So it's just not.
Speaker 3:We like to say that there's this prescription for life and if you follow these cultural prescriptions rather than they're not even in God's word that things are going to work out for you, and that's just not true. Like, do follow God's commands, follow him, follow his leading, live your life for his glory and not for the culture's glory and not for the to champion conservative Christianity.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm with you, okay. So I feel like you and I land in the same page. I think for me and maybe this is because I'm not trolling internet all the time Not that you are, but like uh, I feel like that was like I hadn't. I haven't heard someone be that outspoken for something conservative in a long time. I think I was just telling Mo earlier it's. It feels like you're sitting in a room of farts and someone opens the door and there's fresh air and it's like oh wow, there's a different view and that's refreshing.
Speaker 1:And then when you sort of look at it, you're like, okay, it's got a lot of holes in it. But to hear that initially is like, oh, that's exciting. But to your point, when you start looking at it and then dissecting it, you're like, okay, this has a lot of problems because it isn't based on biblical truth, it's based on a conservative mantle. Is that?
Speaker 3:fair, idolatry, idolatry. I'll go with you there and it's worth being said. He started that part of his speech out by saying said. He started that part of his like speech out by saying women have been sold the biggest bill of lies, and that's the lie of feminism, the lie of, you know, climb the corporate ladder, be a girl boss, babe. We're not. That's. That's actually not where we're stuck right now. Women, women are still being sold that lie. But, like I said, conservative women are being sold another lie, which is this lie I call it the trad wife lie, but it is this lie, this is what, yeah.
Speaker 3:If you live this way, it's the only way, and anything else is not submitting your life to Lord.
Speaker 1:And that's a lie. This is where Adrian and I have had this conversation. I think I've been telling you this for the past almost year and a half. I've been like you're about to see a conservative, non-christian movement. That's going to happen I remember saying this last year and it's going to trump us and we're going to look liberal in comparison to conservatives. It's going to happen and people are going to be like oh, you guys are so liberal and progressive because you're about grace and Jesus and that has always been the swing. The point for the church is, the culture swings back and forth, and back and forth is to stay focused on Christ and fix our eyes upon him, anything like. Have you noticed that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, you're right, congratulations.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Can I get a crown? Yeah, you do get a crown, we have a crown sticker.
Speaker 3:I do have a crown for you, Just for you actually it's not for anyone else, Alright, so okay, there's another one Just for you actually it's not for anyone else, all right.
Speaker 1:So okay, there's another one. I think this will get to your heart. Can we talk about what he said about abortion? So he said he's like okay.
Speaker 4:Can I go back? Can we go back?
Speaker 1:Sure Okay, I want to hear more.
Speaker 4:I either want to go upstairs or I want to engage this conversation. I want to hear more of what you have to say. So in my example that I started, going into that Chris Plekopoulos wasn't interested in okay, I'm just going to just take the bold assumption that it might be interesting to somebody else. So I was stuck with a woman that had a personal relationship with God. I had a huge desire to glorify God. I was ready for that to look like a traditional model, and that is not what God gave me. God said no to that at the timing that I desired that. So what that revealed to me is that his will for me was to go and pursue a job, which is the very thing that I thought was wrong of people and kind of selfish of women.
Speaker 4:I would have gone that far. I would have said I think it's self-seeking, I think it's wrong. And yet it was the very thing that God led me to, and my obedience to God was to engage in this gray area, into what I thought had been gray area, and so what I found is that I was disappointed that I had chosen an education degree, because, as much as I loved kids, I wanted to be a mom. I really would have way preferred being in a corporate world, in marketing or in communications of some type. There were so many jobs that my friends were doing in my early 20s that I thought, wow, I would have been excited about this career. But I never allowed myself to even dream in this aspect because I thought it was simple, I thought it was wrong.
Speaker 4:And yet now my life, what God has provided me with, is only an opportunity to go pursue a job and provision.
Speaker 4:And so I and thankfully I mean I had a great degree, I was able to pursue education, but I, my obedience to God, was letting go of an idol, of an expectation, of a lifestyle for me, and my way that I glorified God then for the next five years of my life was not through marriage and it wasn't through having my own children and it was sacrificially serving him in a corporate setting.
Speaker 4:And so I think that, to take a statement of, was I more excited about my marriage and my future children that I hoped would come Absolutely? But it was sin for me to sit and be discontent until I received those things, and it was sin for me to sit and twiddle my thumbs and go passive in my life while I waited for God to bring those things, and so I think, when you're speaking to a group of women, there's a sensitivity. It wasn't anything that I could do on my own to secure a man for me. That was God that was going to have to bring that, and my job, in being obedient, wasn't to go secure a marriage.
Speaker 1:But don't you? Because I feel like we're hammering on the women part, because I think, and I think because we're talking about the women piece, but I feel like, because we've let men and I don't want to say let men, as if, like you know, we're everyone's parent, but because the culture has told men, you know, you're too young to be married, you're too young to have a family, so you're suggesting that it was a problem on the man?
Speaker 4:that I hadn't been married at 24.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously God wanted you to marry me and I I took me while mature enough, because I was part of the people that was probably delayed adolescence, because I was just, I was 34 and single and wanted to be married but could never find the right one. Uh, because obviously I was supposed to marry you. But I think part of my immaturity and the reason why if I'm like 10 years behind, I'd probably say, you know, like thank god that you came along right when you did, it was perfect for me. But I think there's a part of it where it was I bought into.
Speaker 4:I would say maybe you're starting to go into why you were delayed in your marriage, because of maybe a cultural message. To me, and I don't know if I would say the reason I wasn't married at 22 was because of men being passive.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I would agree with that.
Speaker 3:You have plenty of options right.
Speaker 4:I feel like what I experienced at 20, 21, 22 is I did not find a man that was spiritually engaged with God in a daily but isn't that a problem with men?
Speaker 1:I guess that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 4:I guess that's a problem with men but there was always older guys that were fitting that bill a little bit.
Speaker 1:But I guess you're right guys, my age took you 10, someone 10 years older than you to marry you, right? I mean, I don't know, yeah, but I think, but you dated guys your age I did right and, and they wanted to marry you some did okay and so and you're like nah right, because they were spiritually children.
Speaker 4:Right, right, they were fun. They weren't someone, I wasn't going to follow them Right.
Speaker 1:And I guess that's my point is that women again I don't want to make this like, I don't want to take this the wrong way because there's no men that are ready to lead you, because they're unfunctional babies, you don't want to marry that. So therefore, the smarter, best decision you can make for your life is to be single and pursue god, as opposed to be married to some twit right yeah, that's okay I think that's. I guess that's what I don't want to make it too. I don't know well but degrading.
Speaker 3:But so you really want to solve this problem of, like, passive, weak men?
Speaker 1:no, I like yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, I think that's the problem. There's passive, weak men that aren't engaging God, who aren't serving the Lord, and they have no business being married. But I think that's it, so I would agree, but there's some men.
Speaker 4:I also personally know several men who I think are pursuing God, are responsible, and they would say there are no women that desire to be moms and that desire to raise children, and that's a very real argument. There's all I know. More I actually probably know as many men.
Speaker 1:So now okay, so what is so? Then I would say Okay, all right, so then I would say those.
Speaker 4:I say that I think our culture is stuck between women who have, like I had so many comments and once I finally, once we finally did get married and I had children, I didn't have a career.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 4:I would have lots of comments of women that had it was as though I gave up, as though I had no ambition, as though I had no self-respect and, to be fair, I even I remember asking you this question when we were first married and I kind of feel bad about asking this question.
Speaker 1:I remember where we were when you asked and your answer was so profound to me that we were right at Mopac and Wells Branch Parkway turning in and I go Adrian, what are you passionate about? Why don't you go and do it? And you're like I'm passionate about being a mom. I was like, oh, it never occurred to me that that could be a thing. So like that, that was a wild shift for me and I should have like why wasn't I thinking that that could be like someone's ultimate?
Speaker 4:thing. But your answer then, which I remember, was well, you are, so why aren't you happy, Like, what's your problem? And that is so. Then part two of my story is I got four kids and I got to do them full time, and I experienced depression. I experienced it was the hardest, loneliest, most discouraging eight years of my life was being home with my children, and so the very thing that I had held I would say I idolized was something. So then, what did I have to do? I really believe that God led me to a place of having to lay down my high horse of a career.
Speaker 4:And I was like, okay, I think working some and putting my children in the care of someone else for a few hours every day great, I'm not putting them in the care of just anybody, but that became like. That was humbling to recognize. I actually don't believe that me full-time is the best thing for my kids. I don't believe that it is. I do believe in the first three years of their life that it was. But even in that I would say, man, adrian, it probably would have been better had you had three hours of each day where they were somewhere else, where I could have then had something life-giving, so I had more to bring to the table for our marriage and for my kids.
Speaker 4:I had to really lay down an idol and say, okay, this thing that I lived for, this thing that I idolized, it didn't in return fulfill me and satisfy me and I was left with voids and I was left with weaknesses and I needed to kind of hold back. When I was single, I needed to hold marriage and family with an open hand and then, when I became a stay-at-home mom, I needed to hold the care for my children and the provision for my children with an open hand. Both times needed to like, let go of my grip and allow God to help me find a more middle ground, and I I really, I really believe that that is the case more often than not.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right, that's actually so. I feel like we can say like there's probably both sides of the equation. Men have not been living up to God-given ideals that God has called men to be, young men, specifically young men to be. Which is why I think when men, young men, right now, at our church specifically, I'd say like when we call them to something greater, they, like, they hunger for it, they're like I've never what. You're calling me to something more.
Speaker 1:Because I think what the culture says, ah, you, you know, go and sew your oats or go and have fun and play video games and live in your parents basement, like. I feel like that's sort of the so normal that it's, it's it's, it's feminized a lot of men, and so I don't think that's very attractive for women on, okay. Then, on the other side, women, I think, have I don't want to say sold a bill of goods. I, I, I do feel like because of again, maybe we're saying the same thing they just don't have a lot of options and so the culture is not supporting hey, get married, have a family.
Speaker 4:So can I? I'm going to take this next level, Okay. So, take my example that I just shared.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 4:What if so? I was married to what I would call a CEO, a business owner, an entrepreneur in those years, In those years where I was, I birthed out four children with less than two years in between all of them Are we going to need marriage counseling after this?
Speaker 4:We probably are. This is probably about to be group counseling. So I was married to a man who was desiring children, happy to be married. Those were good things in his life. But he I was not married to a man that was really desiring to partner with me in the daily care of our children in a way that was going to make me successful as a mom full time. If I had had, if I'd been married to somebody that was like man, I feel super passionate that I've got to work my career but I've got to put hard boundaries on it because I'm going to need, because my wife is doing something very challenging and she's going to need me morning and evening. That would have probably changed my outcome in my role.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so essentially you weren't led very well, which is probably part of my own problem.
Speaker 4:I wouldn't say I wasn't led well, but I would say it's kind of a tricky thing. So how is so? I was married to a pastor, a pastor who, in that that job, requires entrepreneurial CEO type hours.
Speaker 4:So how is in our society today? I was attracted to you because I was desiring this a man with ambition. I didn't want to be married to a man that wanted to only work seven and a half hours a day and come home for lunch. I didn't want that. That wasn't attractive those men. I desired that support as a mom.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, Because I did remember a lot of times how come you're not home like everybody else's husband.
Speaker 4:As a mom, I absolutely desired that support. I craved that. It would have changed my whole well-being at the time. However, I didn't want a man that just was running away from a job and working minimal had no ambition.
Speaker 4:So where are we as Christians in society? How are we supposed to marry these two concepts of a man that is ambitious, with drive, with goals, and then a wife that's called to be home? I mean, I think those are two things. I don't know that they fit super good. And this whole trad wife movement is often accompanied by a man that is not really ambitious or motivated or very successful, and it's true.
Speaker 1:So what you're saying is that a guy like so, a wife wanting to make her husband be all those things, becomes a trad wife to empower her husband or something. What do you say?
Speaker 4:I don't understand what you mean I guess what I'm saying is I just it's ironic to me that the women who are relishing in this homemaking are often partnered with men who don't have ambition, who don't have drive, who aren't away from the home very many hours a day. That's typically the case. And what you find? When I go into a military community, what do I find? I find the strongest women with the best attitude, but they are doing their life alone and their man is coming in as he desires and he's accomplishing great things.
Speaker 1:He's a hero. He's a hero everywhere else.
Speaker 4:But then I look at you and I'm like you weren't a hero ever. You were a hero for's, a hero everywhere else. So I'm so, but then I look at you and I'm like you weren't. You weren't a hero ever. You were a hero for the community of god. So then what get? You know what I mean. So, like, like, who am I to say you shouldn't have been pouring out right in those early years? I'm not going to say you shouldn't have been, but I'll say, man, there was consequences of that on me and in our, in our family. That then me. Okay, I need to outsource some things because we've got this tension to work. And I'm not saying what you did was wrong, but I'm saying that this is a common issue.
Speaker 1:Find me a doctor. Yeah right, a doctor. Anybody that's a professional you're wanting to give God glory at work, but you've got to—.
Speaker 4:And God makes very clear to men that you need to work hard.
Speaker 1:You need to work as though you're. You're serving god, not man. So I don't know if that's the cultural, um, if the culture is calling men to work hard anymore. I don't is that, maybe I'm, maybe this is me, just so, thumbs down on the culture that I don't know. Maybe you can speak into this like is there, uh, a reality now with men in culture where they're saying like, just, you know, have a delayed, you know, spend more time playing video games. Spend more time figure out who you are. You don't need to. There's nothing that you need to. There's nothing great or noble about getting yourself ready to be a man of god and having a family. I don't think that. I don't think the cult and I know christian culture might be saying that, but I don't think the culture at large is supporting that.
Speaker 2:I think that even Christian culture has a hard time with that. I mean, I'm just thinking of my friend who's 22 in California, who I pastored in when he was in student ministry, and right now, like he's a trust fund kid and he's got plenty of money. He doesn't know what he wants to do with his life. He's like super depressed and I was like hey, hey man, like are you thinking about? You know, cause he has he's struggling with certain, you know, sexual sins.
Speaker 3:I was like, okay, well, obviously you're not called to celibacy, uh so like you want to get, you want to get a wife.
Speaker 2:And he was like man. I haven't even thought of it. So it's like oh, I see.
Speaker 3:So, there's.
Speaker 2:So no wonder you're not driven. I was like, have you ever been on a date? He was like nope, and he's like a good looking kid. And I was like bro. So we hooked him up on like a Christian thing to go find you know. So he's going to go on his first date and he's like wait, he's 22. He's 22. And he's like never kissed a girl, never been on, I think, never kissed a girl. It's awesome, save that for your marriage If you can. That's amazing. I don't know who's ever done that.
Speaker 2:Shame on you.
Speaker 3:You should have been out there.
Speaker 4:You should have been getting to know people. You should have been engaging with them physically, with boundaries. Engage physically with boundaries.
Speaker 2:That's harder than absent. You wouldn't be happy for someone if someone said hey, the first time I kissed someone was on my wedding day.
Speaker 4:I would say something is wrong, what I think that's awesome.
Speaker 3:That's so awesome.
Speaker 2:Hey, Mo, didn't you kissed and done? Everything before that, but for us, and we dated for like three months- oh well, I mean three months. Well, it was a hard three months.
Speaker 1:That's pretty good Well hey, when you know, you know, so that's a dude inside the church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's what I'm, maybe that's what I'm. I'm seeing that and it infuriates me. I'm seeing that too, and it infuriates me. I'm seeing that too. Okay, and so I feel like maybe that's why, when Harrison Bucker is saying this, I think the wrong audience he should have been. Like he should have spoke to the men. Yes, that, maybe. That's exactly Maybe. When I heard him speak to the women, I was actually hearing like awesome, he spoke to the men, yeah men.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what did he say to the men? He pretty much turned around and he said like yeah, it was long. He turned it around and he said you guys are like wherever the men go, the culture goes and all this stuff. He talked to the guys, that's good, that's good he did.
Speaker 4:But the solution when, when culture, when men and culture go passive and go and don't have ambition and don't have drive, the solution? Women are not like. God has hardwired us to be nurturers and caretakers, and I think he hardwires to be more perceptive. So in a society where the men have completely failed, our nurture role starts to look a whole lot like running a company.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's because we're so flawed as much as it is because there's this gigantic void in society yeah, no man, I think that's, and I think that's when a woman should be CEOing a company is because men have been so deflated there's nothing left. Here's what he said. As men, we set the tone of the culture, and when that is absent, disorder, dysfunction and chaos set in. It feels like it's Jordan Peterson. Anyway, this absence of men in the home is what plays a large role in the violence we see all around the nation. Be unapologetic, and you're unapologetic and you're masculining, fighting against the cultural emasculation of men, which I'm like yeah, yeah, I agree with that, that's fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good Okay.
Speaker 4:All right, really do think that the issue of of uh, what's it called? Like a feminism, feminism, I keep wanting to call it femininity, that's not the right word. Uh, feminism. I think that that I really think that was birthed from a, a phenomenon of, of passive men in generally, but then it turned into something really messed up. I think that the whole boss lady movement is like that's the fruit of, like a broken, a broken system. Right, I really do believe that. But I think for a woman to achieve professionally is not inherently wrong.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:But if women are achieving professionally because they are not able to, because society is not functioning without women, that seems like a big problem. But then on the flip side do I think? When I say, oh yeah, women should do that they should. I was like, no, I think women should let the ball drop really hard Wow.
Speaker 1:Okay, but I think that seems like the opposite of what we've just been talking about.
Speaker 3:It's because you can't prescribe the solution to the broken system. You can't prescribe the solution as the feminist way or the trad wife way. You have to say hold everything with an open hand as a woman.
Speaker 3:Hold motherhood with an open hand for the glory of God and hold corporate career whatever, with an open hand for the glory of God and listen to the spirit and go where he leads. It's just one or the other is not going to heal you because you'll end up making an idol out of whichever one you choose regardless. So you have to break down that idolatry and submit to God. That's what I think the solution is. I agree.
Speaker 1:Man, I think you nailed it and I think within the marriage going back, to our example.
Speaker 4:I think within every specific marriage you do have to work out like, okay, what's the calling of the husband and what's the calling of the wife? And if the calling of the husband is to spend more hours in a career, that's not inherently wrong. But then we've got to talk through what that's going to look like on implications of the wife and of the family, and you might have to employ some other resources that you wouldn't have originally thought were ideal.
Speaker 1:but that's what's necessary in this unique partnership, in this unique marriage, and I think what happens when you say this is what legalism is is like I take what works for me within the biblical framework that's good and honoring, and then I say this must. This is the only way for you.
Speaker 4:I 100% agree.
Speaker 1:And when there's biblical freedom, everything's permissible, but not all is beneficial. So the part if it's permissible, the question you got to ask is it beneficial for our family in the way that God's wired me and all those different things? And it might not be. So I think that's where it's discerning the Holy spirit and how he's leading us, how he's leading your family is, is super essential. Okay, yeah, can I? Can I finally move on to the abortion? One Cause I wanted.
Speaker 2:Leah our professional abortion person over here.
Speaker 3:Professional abortion person. Well, that could be.
Speaker 1:Well, Leah has worked professionally in anti-abortion type stuff. Is that fair enough to say Absolutely Okay. So this is what he said. President Joe Biden is fueling degenerate cultural values. Our own nation is led by a man who publicly and proudly proclaims his Catholic faith but at the same time is delusional enough to make the sign of the cross during a pro-abortion rally. He has been so vocal in support for the murder of innocent babies that I'm sure to many people it appears that you can be both Catholic and pro-choice.
Speaker 2:Hold on, he keeps going. Oh yeah, go to the next one. Let me read the second one, because he doesn't just say it appears he confirms. He says he's not alone From the man behind the COVID lockdown. So the people pushing dangerous, dangerous gender ideologies, blah, blah. They all, including the person who's pro-choice and identify as Catholic have a glaring thing in common they are Catholic. This is an important reminder that being Catholic alone doesn't cut it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was crazy.
Speaker 1:It's a weird statement that let's, let's let's go to the theological part of that just off, but let's go to the abortion aspect of that for a second. Like, that was like for someone to be like abortion is murder from a stage to college students. Where else is that happening? Like, and maybe that's happening all over the place and I just don't know it, but I thought that was a fascinating take on that I would love to hear, especially as someone who's been working in the pro-life movement for so long. I mean, I was there when you were saying we're going to end Roe v Wade and our generation, and I remember when Adrian did the video for that and you got her to do it, I was like Leah, come on. I remember I was like this is really sweet, but this stupid little video is not going to have any impact and we're going to be 20 years from now. Roe v Wade will still be a thing. And then, bam, it happened.
Speaker 3:I was shocked. Well, first of all, I'd just like to give a corporate shout-out to any woman that participated in the overturning of Roe v Wade and the pushing back of darkness when it comes to abortion. I was crazy, because I was told that only men were allowed to do that. But it was women that made it happen. So congratulations. Their contribution to society really, really made a big difference. So first let's just get that out of the way.
Speaker 2:And they do have the Holy Spirit, and they do, and they can speak.
Speaker 1:That's good.
Speaker 3:Way to go. Harrison Bunker yeah, like applause for him, Like that was great. You could call abortion murder all day long. I'm behind it. There's no nuance to that.
Speaker 3:There's no nuance. People like want to pretend there's nuance. And what about this? What about that? And then make up all of these pretend scenarios in which abortion should be happening, never, never be happening, never, never, should be happening, always murder. The only instance which a doctor or a person should even consider would be if the life of the mother was at risk. And even then you don't kill a baby to save a mother's life.
Speaker 3:You deliver the baby if it's putting the mother at risk and you try to save it. You might not, if it's not viable, okay, but so and it's not even called an abortion.
Speaker 2:there's a different medical term for it, right yeah, what's?
Speaker 1:the term for that.
Speaker 3:Well, it depends on how you do it. I mean but Delivery. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:It depends on how. I mean.
Speaker 1:like an ectopic pregnancy is one Okay, but for him to say I mean as someone who's been working in pro-life movement for a long time have you ever heard? Has that been a thing at college graduations?
Speaker 3:long time. Have you ever heard? Has that been a thing at college graduations? Uh, I've never heard of it happening at a college graduation.
Speaker 1:No, that was pretty intense of him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, because I was like wow usually at the pro-life dinners and, like the big right.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean, yeah, that you expected there, but this is like kind of mixed audience yeah, I mean it's a catholic college okay, fair fair.
Speaker 3:But I mean, and it was actually fair, fair, all right that that's true. That's why he was making the point he was saying like it's not enough to be Catholic, you need to also hold this position.
Speaker 1:Let's go to the secondary part that I wanted Mo to talk about. Talk about why you thought that was so wild. That's insane dude.
Speaker 2:He affirms that somebody can believe something that's totally against Catholic doctrine and still identify themselves as Catholic. That makes no sense, dude. That's if someone's like yeah, I know all these non-Trinitarian Christians but you're still a Christian?
Speaker 1:It's like no you're not Call yourself something else, whatever it is, do that. Just don't call yourself Catholic. Don't call yourself a Catholic.
Speaker 2:Stop stealing the label.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people are like, yeah, here's the doctrine of the church. I of people were like, yeah, I'm here's the doctrine of the church. I don't believe that, but I want the label.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's, I think that is weird okay any other thoughts on on that one leah no other than maybe he coordinated with the pope in the pope's 60 minutes interview in which he basically trashed all catholic doctrine. But who did?
Speaker 1:the pope.
Speaker 3:Yeah, pope, francis, right I don't really know if you have to believe in jesus yeah, it was wild it was wild dang but that's wow, okay, all right, all right, this thing, let's get into more catholicness here.
Speaker 1:Bishops are misleading their flocks, and this was an interesting take, and this is the first thing that kind of made me go is this like a new story?
Speaker 1:no, no, that's from him. It was from him in his speech. He's like he. There's enough today, not enough time today for me to list all the stories of priests and bishops misleading their flock. Sadly, many priests are looking for some leadership of the same ones who prioritize their hobbies or even photos with their dogs and matching outfits for the parish directory.
Speaker 1:And I was just like what the chaos of the world is unfortunately reflected in the chaos of our parishes and our cathedrals too. He was particularly unimpressed by priests who practice familiarity with their parishioners instead of being teachers. Quoting Taylor Swift's girlfriend of his teammate, taylor Kelsey, of saying familiarity breeds contempt. So there's a couple things here that I thought was interesting which kind of plays into the Catholic doctrine that priests, there's a hierarchy within the priesthood of believers, that there's clearly some more holy people that have access to God and some less holy people who don't have access to God. Lay people, you need to come to your priest Like compare priests to fathers, which is a good comparison because they call themselves fathers and children and for the people to be doing like taking pictures with their dog and putting in the parish directory to kind of make them sort of more relatable, was wrong and sinful.
Speaker 1:And that's the part where I was like I think that's part of the problem of the Catholic Church, of the unrelatability of pastors and their flock, because they're not with the people, like it's one thing to do marriage counseling when you've never been in a marriage and now I'm going way off here but if you've never been in a marriage, I still think you can do it because clearly Paul did it, clearly Paul Jesus did it, it's, it's, you can do it. But I think there's a relatability factor to talk about your marriage, or relatability factor to talk about your work, relatability factor to talk about your life and how that's on display as a gospel proclaiming person. I don't know. What do you think about that, pastor Mel?
Speaker 2:I think that he's seeing that, because what he's saying he said somewhere else too is he doesn't like that the priests or the whoever bishops aren't saying truth, that they fluffed stuff down. So I appreciate and agree with him there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But the thing that he says about they're becoming more familiar, and that familiarity is bad Right, it just.
Speaker 2:That rubbed me the wrong way it speaks to the Catholic Church and it makes sense in their tradition, because the person who is like bringing the religious things they're supposed to be, like this untouchable, I shouldn't know anything about them type of person, which I think is so stupid. Because for me, like the person who I appreciate, who hears me talk or teach or whatever the most is my wife because she's the most familiar with me, right, and she still hears me preach even though she knows how messed up I am yeah it's like.
Speaker 2:In fact, the familiarity should be like a driving factor towards bridging that gap between the parishioners and whoever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:For them it's not.
Speaker 1:Adrienne, I would love. Yeah for you. Is it weird to hear me preach on Sundays, especially when I embellish a story that you're like?
Speaker 4:You know this is where people ask me that a lot here's what I say is weird. What is a weird phenomenon is hearing from the Holy Spirit through your husband on a weekly basis. I mean because in most marriages that's going to happen every now and then, but on a weekly basis, coming and listening to a message and hearing from the Holy Spirit through words of your husband and when your marriage isn't necessarily like we could have had a conflict or we could be misconnecting in some area, and that doesn't really change.
Speaker 1:What do you mean that?
Speaker 4:doesn't change. If you and I are maybe in a rough patch that morning. I don't find that it hinders the clarity of the Holy Spirit speaking to me.
Speaker 1:Why is that?
Speaker 4:I don't know.
Speaker 1:So you're able to hear from me, even if we had an argument or something like that or I wasn't being loving.
Speaker 4:I feel like, as you're speaking, I'm not discerning, I'm not choosing a judgment stance. As you talk, I'm listening, as though this is the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:That might be a mature thing for you, though.
Speaker 4:Maybe, but that's what I think is kind of weird. What I tell people when they ask me is I said that's what's weird. I never feel a conflict of awareness of your depravity, or even in our attention and hearing from God. Now there are times when I say there'll be sometimes when you'll make a statement that I'm like, oh, I don't know, but that's different than being able to hear what you're saying is the Holy Spirit. And so I find that to be. I think that's very powerful.
Speaker 3:There have even been times when you guys have had a certain conflict and after Chris will preach, you'll specifically say man, that was really convicting, that's really helping heal this specific conflict that we were engaged in. Oh, interesting yeah.
Speaker 1:What about for you, leah? I mean, you and I have known each other since you were 19, and you're like, not 19 anymore, and so what about for you? Has familiarity bred contempt for you in any way, I'm sure?
Speaker 3:It used to annoy me to hear you tell stories, and only parts of the stories, yeah, or like the parts you wanted, but where's the?
Speaker 4:establishment of like inaccurate facts.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4:Okay, that was completely inaccurately represented.
Speaker 3:That happens on a regular you just let that go it used to bother me, but it doesn't anymore because, like I see your heart and also as like someone who writes speeches for a living too, I understand like the need to kind of craft it in a way that makes the point. So I have a lot more grace for you there and I'm sure that through that grace that the Holy Spirit speaks.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, that's good to know. I appreciate that.
Speaker 3:Even and you know I actually I also used to hate hearing the same sermon over and over again, but now I love it. Like when I hear a sermon I've already heard, like 10 years ago, like this is the best, I'm like it's hitting me in a whole new way. Way to go, god yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, you do have to recycle some stories over a 10 year period.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and there are times I even find myself, like in our, within our marital familiarity, praying at times, like you'll be speaking something and I'm praying that you're hearing. I'll be like God. Help him to believe this truth, help him to see this truth, help him to recognize where he's not living in accordance to this truth.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, that happens a lot. I think sometimes I'll be preaching, I'll be like ah, crud, and I'll be convicting my and I'll say, like you know, I'm preaching myself here on that and I think you do a very good job, humbly doing that, but that to me is the level to which I think a familiarity doesn't hinder.
Speaker 1:Right. So I feel like that's a disconnect for him and the problem? I think that not problem, but the issue I have with Harrison Bucker here is he was talking about the traditional Latin mass, like over and over again. He's like and he called it. He talked about so much, he just started abbreviating it as TLM and I'm like who knows what TLM is?
Speaker 1:But he's like.
Speaker 1:So Vatican II back in 1950, whatever was when the Catholic church sort of took down the walls and said you could have mass in your own native tongue, which was wild, and it was made Catholic church wildly popular for a little bit.
Speaker 1:But I think it lost some of the mystery as people are now giving the mass in English or whatever, and so that was a strange thing for me and as a person who hasn't really ever been to a traditional Latin mass, I can't understand fully the appeal, other than that you feel like, because you don't understand. It's like when I go to Africa mass, I can't understand fully the appeal, other than that you feel like, because you don't understand. It's like when I go to africa and I don't understand the words. As soon as I understand the words of the song, it loses a little bit of its coolness factor, because I know they just said the same thing like a thousand times, uh, but like whenever, um, whenever I'm in latin mass and I, if I heard it, I would just be like, oh, that's really mysterious. Any thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:When Cody was in surgery last week, I came here to do tech for the Korean church. Yeah, and at a certain point I don't know what happened, but he just keeps singing for the worship night and it's all in Korean.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then I just start crying and it was really cool because I was like I don't know a word that you're saying, but I can see that you're worshiping. So to me it's like this there is something special. There's this sense of like man. Every tribe, language and tongue, but for it's like there you have an opportunity to not speak in that language. So to me that's like I wouldn't be happy over there.
Speaker 1:Right, right, right and June. Pastor June, he doesn't speak English very well so that's his native tongue Right, but that's for them.
Speaker 2:I was just a bystander, I was just watching, so to me that was like oh cool, this is what it means to have. There are people all over the world in their own language, but the people there understand what this person's saying.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:So, there's a communication happening I don't, I cannot see the appeal of some dude. Can you imagine here, sunday morning, you go up here and you start reading the greek new testament and then start talking? I don't know, I start talking in russian. It's like how is that?
Speaker 1:nobody understands what's going on, right, and this is where I feel like it's a direct violation and okay, this might be, this might. I don't want to be too strong on this. I feel like it's not in line with Acts 2. Acts 2, everybody hears the word of God in their own language, and so they, and they're not even so. It feels like it's the complete opposite. It feels like the Tower of Babel has been erected and God had to confuse the language, and I feel like that's what's happened in the traditional Latin mass Instead of hearing the word of God, you've confused it so nobody can understand it, and that's you're not. Salvation comes by hearing and hearing the word of God, and so hearing a traditional Latin mass when you don't understand it, I think, does nothing for you, unless yeah, nothing, I'd say I'm willing to say nothing for you, and so I feel like that's the part where he fell more in love with the tradition as opposed to the relationship with God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you know where they get that from? Why he should be in Latin? Well, he, because they're expecting the people to learn Latin, right.
Speaker 1:I don't think they're expecting the people to learn.
Speaker 2:Latin. Yeah, they have to.
Speaker 1:But I think the reason why he said he said God was very specific in the Old Testament about the way worship should be conducted. Yep, therefore, in the New Testament there's a very specific way that the church because remember, in the Catholic Church, scripture and tradition are equal yeah, and he said there's a very specific way that the church was started with a Latin mass, which I'm like, was it? I mean, was it Latin?
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 4:I mean it was.
Speaker 1:Greek and it was probably Aramaic, anyway.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and my personal judgment on this is that when you have to reach a point of that level of like, inauthenticity, like there's zero accountability, it's like that to me, is where you're. You're grasping for a feeling of spiritual superiority because of the void and absence that is present. And I mean that would be my judgment on that. And I feel like we, I feel this way, like you have people do devotionals, you know, as we know, up here at the church, and there are times when I'm like what's happening right now, like, and I'm like this is this doesn't feel, and this is where I'm like, am I human? Am I accurate in my judgment? No, I'm not going to say I'm accurate, but there's times when I'm like this feels like a whole lot of words or a whole. I'm like this feels uncomfortable. It doesn't necessarily feel like an overflow of something that was spiritually convicting, but more of an obligation to come and feel and sound like there was something profound happening inside and that's uncomfortable, whereas somebody can deliver a very basic, simple message with lots of humility.
Speaker 4:That is super powerful.
Speaker 1:Very powerful, I agree.
Speaker 4:And so to me, when there's an effort to, when it feels forced or feels kind of like puffed up, that is like it may be it's the result of somebody feeling really spiritually like, yeah, driven, but it never. It doesn't come off that way and I I'm often like, oh man, this was a like I don't know, it's uncomfortable. I think it's uncomfortable to me. Forcing a latin service on people is a similar it's wild.
Speaker 3:I feel like harrison butker is a lesson in legalism like his whole speech yes with the latin mass. That's extreme legalism. This is the traditional way to do it and therefore the only way to do it.
Speaker 1:To be fair, he said you can do an English Mass and it's not bad, but you should probably do it.
Speaker 3:I know that he put caveats in everything that he said, but you can see what he's going for. The same thing with the women. This is the way it should be this is the traditional way.
Speaker 1:You've taken a really sad second best when you went for a career.
Speaker 3:That's kind of how he put it.
Speaker 1:Anyway, legalism bad yeah, okay, so I do want to talk about the COVID comments, and so I think, and maybe even Joe, can you get up here? We're going to, not that Leah's being replaced, we're going to bring Joe up here. Joe Ames, ladies and gentlemen, who's late to the party, but he's always welcome COVID came up a few times in his talk and he said we cannot buy into the lie that the things we experienced during COVID were appropriate. Over the centuries there have been great wars, great famines, yes, even great diseases that came with a level of lethality and danger, but in each of these examples, church leaders leaned into their vocations to ensure that their people received the sacraments. And this is the part I actually loved. I was like exactly, Especially if you believe that receiving communion, if you haven't received communion, it's a means of grace, that's a means of grace and
Speaker 1:you're outside there's a chance you don't go to heaven because you didn't receive your communion, then you better get your butt over to wherever and knock out some communion, because what the heck are you doing if you're not doing that? Like that is, and you know they would try to piece it with, like you know, the holy water squirt gun, like that was. I mean, that was like a thing. I was like what is going on? That the Catholics sort of just punted on that for a long time and I think he called out a real inconsistency. I think it was convicting for me. Whenever we were going through COVID, I felt like during the days of the bubonic plague there were Catholic priests going and ministering, collecting bodies. They were the ones that were putting their life at risk to minister to the sick and dying. That could have exposed many to more death, but they were willing to do it. I was like I appreciate that he went there. Any thoughts on that, pastor, mo and Joe Pastor.
Speaker 2:Mo and.
Speaker 1:Joe.
Speaker 2:I was just thinking. This sounds like the Catholic Church is heading up to some sort of split at this point, which is going to be not hilarious but really ironic.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Because their whole big thing is Catholic, means universal one, and I think there's going to be, and the one true church. The one true church.
Speaker 5:So the one true church splits into two is going to be funny.
Speaker 2:It's going to be funny because there's. If that happens, there's going to be a freaking ons.
Speaker 5:Now there's Peter's church.
Speaker 1:That's right Now there's two of you.
Speaker 5:How are there two rocks now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's going to be like the well, no, fair, fair enough. Remember, in 1000 AD there was a great schism, so I mean it's not like it hasn't happened.
Speaker 4:Sure Adrian, talk to me about COVID, like what was your perspective on how the church as a whole handled. Covid and post-mortem. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:The church as a whole. Yeah, so well Not our church specifically. Yeah, you don't need to.
Speaker 4:So I that's what she wants to talk about.
Speaker 1:All right go for it.
Speaker 2:I want to hear about that.
Speaker 4:I was, you know. I think we did a good job. I think we did a good job holding the tension. But the thing here's the thing with COVID, that was, if I had not been married to a pastor, had I not had a leadership position of some sort at the church because of my marriage, I would have had a different perspective and it was very humbling for me.
Speaker 2:What would have been that different?
Speaker 4:perspective. So, without being connected to a pastor, I was like, who are we if we're not gathering in person? Like what are like? What are we? What do we believe in? Like this is an Ebola A and B, it's like even if, even if there's a small risk of of catching this virus and it actually may be taking a harder toll on someone man like this is everything in the Bible points to it being worth that risk. I would argue that we have people driving down. I'll never, ever stop with my I-35 comparison. If you drive down I-35 to get to our church, you take a way larger risk every single time you come to Wells Bridge Community Church than you ever one time took during COVID. I don't care if you were licking the floors during COVID, you're taking a bigger risk driving down.
Speaker 4:I-35. To me, there was this weird emphasis and importance placed on this virus protection that seemed very anti-biblical, anti-rational.
Speaker 5:It was more fear.
Speaker 4:It was fear, but it was fear based in fantasy. There was no facts, there was no proof, there was no evidence and we were buying into playing it super safe and as a church that feels so wrong. Like if we're saying, yeah, we're going to send some missionaries to China and they're going to go to an underground church and they're risking their lives to do something illegal because we believe in the gospel, then who are we as an American church when we're like staying at home, that was fire. But here's where, because I was connected to a pastor and because I had a position in the church, no, no, go ahead.
Speaker 4:But there was a real felt burden of we are shepherding people that believe it is sin and believe it is wrong to act in a way that is selfish, and I think our role as leaders of the church was to help educate those people on truth, help point them towards scripture, help point them to truth. But they were really wrestling. So going back to the Old Testament, meat is fine if it's fine in this case, not Right. We wrestled with that Old Testament.
Speaker 4:Meat is fine if it's fine in this case not, it's like I kind of— we wrestle with that. It felt like that. It felt like that in terms of like we need to have the humility to recognize that to some believers this does seem like sin, and so we can't just—I wanted to just ridicule them, I wanted to belittle them. I wanted—and, like Joe Ames, he and I became friends during COVID because of his Facebook memes. I was like this guy gets it.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 4:I was like thank God, and I'm, literally and honestly, here's the best thing. I came into children's ministry at the end of COVID and you want to know our children's ministry team was the most awesome group of individuals because they were coming around. Dirty monkey virus infected kids on a regular. They were okay. The demographic at our church that was happy to serve there and okay with that was an awesome group of people and they were aligned with how I saw things. But I was very humbled by the burden to shepherd people well, to love people well, to recognize Like.
Speaker 4:I personally believe that the vaccine caused more heart problems and more issues in individuals than the virus ever would have or ever did I that's my personal belief. You can disagree with it, that's fine. But because I personally believe that it was tough to sit there and then watch our people go in lines to get vaccines, because that felt like oh no, they're deceived to the point of their own harm, in a more severe way than coming to our church unmasked was to their own harm. But yet if I don't respect their decision, I look like a horrible shepherd or a horrible leader who's insensitive and selfishly motivated, because that was the narrative of the culture. So there was a tension to weigh and I don't think you could land anywhere and just be always in the right and I hated that. I hated that the right spot was to hold attention and I didn't like that.
Speaker 4:But I do believe that was what the role of the church was and I do believe, as a general whole, the American church failed. I do believe that. But I think that as a Wells Branch community church, I think we did I mean, compare a wells branch community church. I think we did a man, compare us to everyone else. I think we did a decent job holding that line like pretty in a way I felt proud of yeah it was tough, probably below john mccarthur level right we were not quite killing it like the easter sunday that we were siloed.
Speaker 4:I was just crying. I was out at the parking lot just crying and I'm like, what, what are we doing? What do we believe in? Like I just couldn't conceive that all these pastors in Austin, texas, were just like, yeah, we're just home, we're just in our living. I'm like if we believe in a resurrected God, Well, they probably needed many of them needed sabbatical. They did.
Speaker 5:So they probably used it as a very oh, this is God's. Given sabbatical here, a very oh, this is God's given sabbatical here, so that was yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:What did you think about the COVID experience, joe?
Speaker 5:Well, the funny thing that was, uh, my first Sunday here, uh the doors were locked.
Speaker 1:No, the whole staff had gotten COVID.
Speaker 5:I just I showed up five minutes late, so I just figured they were hardcore, about hardcore about attendance. Oh, that's funny.
Speaker 2:So you respected it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, like all right all right, I'm like all right, I'll be back next week on time.
Speaker 5:So that was interesting. But back to like the bubonic plague. I mean at that time the medical establishment was the church. I mean almost every hospital has some religious name associated with it Right right, right right.
Speaker 5:Versus the last 60 years, the american government has done a great job of separating those two fields as, like, this is science and these are fantasy people, where, like the fantasy people that they try and say is fantasy, actually instituted all those sciences in those hard sciences to get the medical breakthroughs that we have now anyways, right. So the fact that it was like, oh, let's not listen to them, like that's why priests and they were out there for the bubonic plague, is because that's where people look to yep with their fear right now. People use their fear and coddle the government instead of coddling to church right, so they flood the governments instead of flooding churches right.
Speaker 1:And then, when the government comes up with a fear-based solution, uh, then, because there is no hope, there is no god, there is no anything. When the government comes up with a fear-based solution, uh, then, because there is no hope, there is no god there is no anything with the government?
Speaker 5:yeah, there's no, there's no. There's no way to atone for anything, right, you're just constantly going to be in fear and there's constantly punishment that has to be enforced out and there's edicts that you can. You can just cower in and you keep your nose clean. Is essentially that tactic versus the church is like no, you go out and do stuff because we bring you in as a sick person. We train you up to be a doctor so you can go bring in more sick people.
Speaker 4:Right, exactly Right. It makes sense, and that's the heart of the gospel is going out there and risking everything because there's only one thing that matters, and it's eternal life. It is not quality. Quality of life on earth is never a motivator or a reason behind anything that we're doing.
Speaker 5:I mean, I just can't. Even the most healthy, well-to-do person, how pales in comparison to your, like your holy body, that you're going to get when you're dead anyway. So what is the point of getting it here, right?
Speaker 1:Nice. All right, One of the things that Harrison also said. He sent the students kind of with a benediction Make no mistake, you are entering into mission territory in a post-God world, but you were made for this and, with God by your side and constant striving for virtue within your vocation, you too can be a saint. Christ is king to the heights. Now it was really kind of motivating, but then you're just like Is this ironic coming from a kicker in the NFL?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh Right, right. But I love the fact that he's saying if he would have stopped here. Make no mistake, you were entering into mission territory in a post-God world, but you were made for this.
Speaker 2:And I was like yeah, but then you too can be a saint, yeah and with God by your side.
Speaker 1:I mean, listen, you just kind of get some navigational help from him, but basically it's you leading.
Speaker 2:You know, kind of get some navigational help from him, but basically it's you leading, I you know there's a lot there that I was like struggling because he's not saying saint in like the general term that I think he's saying holy saint.
Speaker 5:Oh, yeah, you like a beautified saint. Yeah, you have to make two miracles.
Speaker 1:I think that someone's saint him, or I think he's got some saint name somewhere, like saint, whatever, uh. But yeah, I thought that was interesting. I thought that was like don't you have to do some miracles?
Speaker 5:Two confirmed miracles that the church has to ordain as like this was a legit miracle.
Speaker 2:Mother Teresa did that. She must have right yeah she's a saint.
Speaker 5:I mean, whatever the beer is, he did that too. Whatever the beer is, augustine, yeah, augustine's like 400 AD. No, what's the beer is? He did that too. Whatever the beer, augustine, yeah.
Speaker 1:Augustine's like 400 AD.
Speaker 5:No, what's the beer company?
Speaker 4:I forget what it is yeah, I know, oh, lazarus. No, I can't think of it.
Speaker 1:Anheuser-Busch.
Speaker 5:It's a A. No, it's a Saint. It's literally Saint. It's Saint A, isn't it an?
Speaker 1:A.
Speaker 4:R Tollis or yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, I know which one you're talking about.
Speaker 5:Yeah so he is ordained with miracles of like feeding people or making sure the beer didn't run out, and the church ordained it as a miracle.
Speaker 1:Is it St Wendell, st Polly Girl? No, I think it's All right, I don't know. Okay, well, anyway, all right, I thought that was good. I think that was a good discussion of Harrison. Harrison had a lot of opinions, a lot of them good, a lot of them not so good, but I think you could really sum it up with a very legalistic push to the right, which in some ways is good, some ways not so good. I would love to hear, joe, your perspective on conservatism as a whole moving to the right, and there's like this underground current moving to the right that has separated from God. I don't know if you've seen that or experienced it, because you kind of have your finger on the pulse.
Speaker 5:Well, I think part of it is shy out from the Fed there, whether it be CIA, fbi that infiltrate into these underground movements. And then I think a lot of it like how you guys were talking about the trad wife movement earlier yeah, I think a lot of that are just feminists who are like oh, we can play this game.
Speaker 4:Yes, 100% agree with that.
Speaker 1:We can play this game Hold on Hold on, yeah, I 100% agree, this is my wife goes into conspiracy theory on this one, but I would love to hear from a true conspiracy theorist. How is this? It's a feminist ploy to control men. Somehow it is an effective feminist ploy to control. All right, joe, talk to me I. I not that I don't believe my wife. I need to hear it from a real.
Speaker 5:I don't think it's a feminist ploy to control men that's not what I think, okay good I think, because now the argument is you can't even attain this. This is a luxury lifestyle of being a trad wife and it's like it's going because it used to be. Oh, that's just for the poor and the commoners, and now it's. No, this is for the ultra wealthy.
Speaker 1:Oh, I understand Her husband makes way too much money.
Speaker 5:She doesn't ever have to work. She can film herself. It's all fake.
Speaker 2:They're just Instagram models that found a new avenue to get sponsorships, which statistically the bell curve for stay-at-home moms is like this Poor and then middle class, it drops out. For the rich it skyrockets. They're not wrong.
Speaker 5:It's either you're super poor or you're super wealthy.
Speaker 1:Middle class stay-at-home moms tiny percentage, adrian, if you want to look rich.
Speaker 4:I'm well aware. You have to get Botox too, and you get, like, your forehead lifted up.
Speaker 5:Well, and none of that to me is appealing feminist traits. That is putting plastic over something that's supposed to be real.
Speaker 1:Anyways Okay.
Speaker 4:And to Joe's point, which he spared us but I'm going to go. He spared us but I'm going to go. A woman who puts on a behavior modification to establish a perception of super submissiveness and kind of voids herself of opinions, in my opinion there is no relationship in an ultra-submissive dynamic where the wife holds no opinions and worships a husband. I don't believe that. That's what guys—.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but do you think that's really it?
Speaker 4:So the people that I know who kind of employ this strategy. I would argue the women are running the households. They're making the decisions. They're they're deciding the schedule of the husband by by means of a manipulation that comes through. I think men are very into being respected. I think that's how. God designed men to be.
Speaker 1:So if you can take your, respect and tweak it a little.
Speaker 4:It's not. It's not hard to manipulate a false, a false respect.
Speaker 1:I just don't understand Well.
Speaker 5:so if I feel respected, if a woman is not showing herself on the internet for millions of people to see, that's not respectable to me.
Speaker 1:Right. But what if she's saying I just love my husband?
Speaker 4:He's so amazing, I think you're a little unique because I think I would argue that, given your background, your upbringing, you have always told me you would like me to lie to you and clap for you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I need lots of clapping, so I don't think that's very common.
Speaker 4:So I think that in most relationships there is a if I could come home, if you could come home to somebody who just doted on you and it was empty, it was lies, it was empty, and I worshipped you and I acted as though you were my source of life. I could probably get you to do absolutely anything if I just was pitiful enough and complimentary enough. And flattery is sin. Flattery is from the pit of hell. Enough flattery that is perceived as respect. And here's the thing as much as you say you would like this and you would never believe this is you would see through it.
Speaker 1:I didn't marry that so clearly right.
Speaker 4:I don't think. I think you would quickly find that empty. Even somebody like you, who maybe is onto this idea, is maybe not being the worst. I think that even still, you would quickly be like oh, there's no relationship.
Speaker 1:Right Relationship aspect is not fun. No, because I think the thing that makes our dynamic awesome is that you have an opinion about everything, and so it makes you very interesting and hilarious. But yeah, I do feel like that's probably one of those things. Okay, what else? I need to hear another conservative conspiracy over there?
Speaker 4:I don't know I like the FBI. I'm not sure if I'm on that one, the FBI and CIA planting ideology. I don't really think I disagree with it, but I can't really own it.
Speaker 5:Well, I mean, the most recent one, I think, is the Laura Chain one, where she was supposedly. They did an article recently about how, oh, this is a bad way to fall into trad merit. This is the horror story of the trad married life. But she literally married an asian federal official, like a spy essentially, who, like, made her life a living nightmare and then, like, they're trying to use this as like a takedown of like, oh, this is what conservative it's, like, that's not a conservative man, but you're gonna paint it like that that she fell prey to a spy who was, oh, who was hired to essentially marry her and now you're not going to include any of that in your article right but just paint this article as oh, this is the downfall of the traditional of the traditional marriage.
Speaker 5:This is a trad wife that you don't hear about, about being berated constantly by a husband who and it's like the dude's a federal agent.
Speaker 4:Okay, that's good. I like that, that's good.
Speaker 5:Okay.
Speaker 1:Well, hey, thanks for watching. That was quite the podcast, and we're going to get some more of Joe Ames in the future. So, hey, thanks for watching. If you have any questions, just text us at 737-231-0605 or go to pastorplekcom. We would love to hear from you. There's always exciting things to talk about faith, culture and everything in between, From our house to yours. Have an awesome week of worship.