Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Words and Their Weight in Worship
294: Have you ever chuckled at a joke only to wonder if it might have a deeper, more complex impact? Join Pastor Plek, Catie Sas, and Pasto Mo as they dissect the controversy that unfurled at Lake Point Church when Pastor Josh Howerton's attempt at marriage humor sparked the need for an apology. Catie brings a woman's perspective to the table, discussing the influence words can wield, while Pastor Mo offers insight into the reverberations such jests have on the image of religious leadership and congregational dynamics.
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And welcome back to Pastor Plex podcast, where we talk faith, culture and everything in between, and with me in studios, none other than Pastor Muhammad Ali, hello, hey, and then also back again is none other than Mrs Katie Sass. Katie, welcome, thanks, all right, we're talking, I almost said welcome, welcome, katie, welcome, thanks All right, we're talking. I almost said welcome.
Speaker 1:Welcome, that would have been a little weird, but that's okay. Hey, we appreciate you. We got a question from this week and it's going to be a two-parter because two mega church pastor people kind of gotten some hot water this week. So here we go. Uh, this one said uh, can you weigh in and offer your opinion on the Josh Howerton situation in Dallas? There was an article in Dallas Morning News and that reference is a tweet made, Then an article in Christian Post covering him apologizing. Do you think he did anything wrong? Do you think he should have apologized? How would you handle things if you were in a similar situation? So this is going to be part one of the two-parters. So Josh Howerton is a lead pastor at Lake Point Church. The pastor before him was a cool dude, Steve Stroop, and so this is a legacy mega church that's really renowned in the Dallas area.
Speaker 3:It's East Dallas, yeah it's one of the largest growing churches in the US and it's awesome. It's a great church.
Speaker 1:Um, at one point I was considered to be the teaching pastor there, but they didn't actually interview me. I don't really know what that means and it's kind of like oh, wow, anyway. So, uh, at least they saw my resume at one point. Okay, so, uh, here's what happened. I'm going to kind of give you the general gist of the joke. Here's what happened. I'm going to kind of give you the general gist of the joke. And then, uh, katie, I'd love for you to kind of give your response as a woman. It went something like this Uh, it was like he was talking about marriage and said uh, ladies, you know, um, you were thinking about your wedding day.
Speaker 1:You were like, you were thinking about the flowers, you were thinking about the place settings, you were thinking about the dresses. You were thinking about the flowers, you were thinking about the place settings, you were thinking about the dresses. You were thinking about your dress and how everything was going to go. And so, future husbands, if you want to do this right, you stand where you're told to stand, you wear what you're supposed to wear and you do whatever she tells you to do. You stand where she tells you to stand, you wear what she tells you to wear and you do whatever she tells you to do.
Speaker 1:So it was no, as you stand where she tells you to stand, you wear what she tells you to wear and you do what she tells you to do, yeah, and then he kind of goes. Then everyone's like, yeah, ha, ha, ha, ha. And then he flips it and he goes. But you know what Men? Their whole lives they've been dreaming about their, and so then he goes. So that means wives or ladies, you need to stand where he tells you to stand, wear what he tells you to wear and do what he tells you to do. And it was supposed to be funny and honestly I think it's kind of funny. It's like a. The people were clapping.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they thought it was hilarious. They clapped. Everyone loved it Nobody.
Speaker 1:So, but then the backlash claim, because what was clipped was like the second part. The second part hey women, stand where you're supposed to stand, where you're supposed to wear do what he tells you to do.
Speaker 3:So.
Speaker 1:Katie, I wanted to hear from you just your initial reaction to that, just the in-passing reaction. And then, Mo, I'd love to hear from you as well. So, Katie, what do you think when you first hear that, um, stand where you're supposed to stand where you're supposed to wear, do what he tells you to do.
Speaker 2:Only the second part. Yeah, I mean, I would be highly offended.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now in context, how about that?
Speaker 2:In context no.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I would think, oh, it was like that's funny.
Speaker 1:Yeah funny, yeah right, that is funny.
Speaker 2:yeah, and because he's he's not, he's not being a draconian, like he's not encouraging men to to, because he has two, like I just googled him and he quit google search and he has two daughters right and I don't think that he would want his daughters to marry a man that would act that way right like he wouldn't. And so I think, if you look at it as like he's hopefully I mean assumingly he's a loving father, he's a loving husband and he just he made a joke that maybe it was a poor joke. I don't think it was a very good joke to make on a stage as a pastor. It's kind of like consider your role, consider the platform.
Speaker 1:Do you think I would make a joke like that?
Speaker 3:no, really all right thanks which is funny, because you would think plec would make a joke.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would totally make a joke like that I I yeah if even plec, doesn't make a joke yeah, if even I don't make a joke like that, maybe that's a little, a little far, a little far well, I like to think I, you know, think of you a little higher.
Speaker 2:Thank you Making a joke like that man. I don't even think about myself that highly. I was like oh man, I would probably be tempted.
Speaker 1:I'd be like that was funny. I would have to. I might have to say that yeah, I mean I would.
Speaker 2:I thought it was funny too, Like when you told me the whole joke in context I was like, yeah, men do dream about their wedding night, like that's like what they look forward to. Ryan couldn't care less about the wedding day. Like he let me do whatever I wanted. He was like, oh, you want everything pink, don't care.
Speaker 3:Literally do whatever you want.
Speaker 1:And then I just care about the hotel room that night, and so it's like he was just.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's like it makes sense, but I think because he's a pastor and it was probably just a bit awkward of a joke for him to make, I don't, I mean, I think it was funny, but I could see why other people would think like oh, that's okay, yeah, okay good.
Speaker 1:What do you think, mo? What would you? I think so one is it a dirty joke?
Speaker 3:No, yeah, okay, good, what do you think, mo? What would you, I think, so one. Is it a dirty joke?
Speaker 2:No, it's a joke about sex, which I think is totally valid In the context of marriage, in the context of marriage Right.
Speaker 3:Is it a joke to make during a sermon? I would say absolutely not. If it's outside of a sermon, absolutely hilarious. But even within the joke itself, even if you think it's okay to make during a sermon, I think there's a lot of assumptions that go into the joke. One I don't like, because this is where I'm going to start criticizing one. I don't like that he said this is right before he told it. This is something that a mentor told me years ago and let me give you all some advice. So the second that you say it's advice, now it's. I get it.
Speaker 3:You're supposed to like extrapolate the truth within the joke yeah, yeah but then there is some advice within that right uh, so I think it's weird it just seems weird.
Speaker 3:So I think the assumptions that go into the joke are one only the lady cares about the wedding day, which, honestly, for lauren and I it was funny because like we got engaged, we're about to get married and she started to flip out about all the planning and all this and I like I don't know if I was supposed to do it, but I almost like threatened her. I was like if you start to freak out, we're going to go elope, and so from that moment onward she was just like all right, like I'm gonna chill out, and we and we enjoyed the process and it was, it was, it was mutual, we did it together. So I think the assumption that just the woman cares about the wedding day, it's an assumption, it's stereotypical. And just the man cares about the sex afterward, that's also an assumption. That's stereotypical, that's incorrect or should be incorrect. And then third one the assumption is both of y'all for that joke to work are virgins Right? How does a virgin man know what he wants?
Speaker 1:on his wedding night Right, right, right, oh, that's funny.
Speaker 2:So there are a lot of if you start to dig into the joke. I love how you literally broke every single part of that down. That was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think because when I heard that joke I got the general, I didn't go, I didn't go, I just took okay, funny, ha got the gender, I didn't go?
Speaker 2:I didn't go, I just took okay funny.
Speaker 1:Haha, move on. But jokes are stereotypical, right, that's what makes them funny.
Speaker 2:If you're not stereotypical, they're funny like if a joke is neutral and understanding, then it's not a joke right, and if you put like 50 disclaimers on it, right then it doesn't.
Speaker 1:It's not funny, yeah, but instead if, if that was like john christ with a stand-up, stand-up joke, funny, oh, because he's a absolutely yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:So I I do think, okay, that's good, that was good perspective. So, yeah, I I think that. So then the apology. I don't know if you saw the apology, so the apology he and I don't want to say he plagiarized because I don't know, but it was almost a hundred percent exact with another mega church, mega church's pastor's apology. He said like, hey, I said a thing. And then I said, you know, careless words will be judged or whatever a proverb he said. And then he, then he go, the next part, it was exactly the same, next part was exactly the same. And so and I get it you want to make sure you're, you just screwed up and you want to go with an apology that works. So why not craft one from someone that already did it? Do you think he?
Speaker 2:thinks he screwed up like do you think he, like is taking full responsibility for it, or that he man that's to take responsibility?
Speaker 1:I wish I knew this is, you know, when you're in the. This is, as you know, as all of us right now are in a public space, right uh, with all of our tens of listeners out there. Um, we, we have a responsibility to these tens to kind of choose our words carefully.
Speaker 2:But I can say whatever I want.
Speaker 1:Right and you can't Right. That's true, that is true.
Speaker 2:So it's like and you've talked to me about this before because I get irritated with you when you kind of play neutral on things and I'm like just freaking, say what you think. Like, say your opinion. I know outside of this, I know what your opinion is, so just say it on this public platform. But you won't, because you are a pastor and you you are shepherding a flock of a ton of different people, and so it's like there are things you can't be super. What is the word polarized like?
Speaker 1:polarizing that's good, yeah, and like you can't like if I, if I gave my opinion about homeschool, yeah, now all of a sudden, everyone's like that it goes from me to that church, right yeah?
Speaker 2:if it's not biblical, like if it's not a theological issue, right then, it doesn't mean anything for you to take a stand. So, but it's like I can, because I'm not in a pastoral role, I'm not even in a ministry leadership role Like I'm.
Speaker 1:I'm just like I think I have said the wrong thing. I just, my platform is tens versus millions and so therefore, the, the, the, the backlash is way huger. So I do think huger, huger, I got some good vocab around her um, so I do think the apology, you know again, I don't know the context it is, elders say, hey, you need to apologize and it better be awesome. So we went and crafted one from um somebody, or it was like gosh that came off wrong. That's not the, that's not the. Look that point one.
Speaker 3:It just sucks Cause. Now he has to apologize about his apology.
Speaker 1:Right Like now yeah, now it's like okay, he stole some stuff. Yeah, it was weird. It was just weird across the board.
Speaker 2:I mean if it was a good apology of compare apologies across the board.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think people just I mean, if it's me, I'm like just we're gonna move on. And yeah, he dug himself in a hole, and if you're that mad about it, then leave the church yeah, right, at first what he said was insensitive at best right, but now he straight up lied because or you're stealing right, so now it's like that there's no way around, like you can't play drag bro.
Speaker 1:I mean there's nothing new under the sun. I mean, you know, if you steal something like, you get a part of your sermon from what's his name Spurgeon, and then you get a part of your sermon from Tim Keller and a part of your sermon from Chuck Swindoll or a part of your, I don't know. I think you know you're you're going to over time. It all just meshes into one thing, all the stuff you learn. But I get it. It's hard to wrap your head around, but word for word, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3:Written.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's tough, okay, yeah, yeah. And I like, is he wouldn't care? No, he wouldn't, but he's great, like I. Honestly.
Speaker 1:They come in and think, yeah, I probably should listen to more uh because I heard him in person at exponentialonential last year and I was like like tears crying, just powerful, um, and I was like that guy can bring it and so I, I want to. I don't want to tear him down, uh, but the problem with doing things publicly is that you kind of set yourself up for people to talk about you publicly, and so here he is and and um, it's not like he didn't know.
Speaker 3:It's like when you're about to go on stage and say that you know that this might not unfold for you, bro.
Speaker 2:Right, it's not like there wasn't the feeling of like maybe this won't land right as soon as soon as you went did the joke he went back and he had this face up like this and he goes okay, acts one.
Speaker 3:So he knew like it's risky bro. Oh yeah, he took the risk like he didn't, he took the risk.
Speaker 1:I think if you wrote a joke like that down, I think you would know yeah, usually my jokes that come off that are like the one I said, that like I'm, you know, getting hard-hearted.
Speaker 2:That was total, oh my gosh, that one wasn't even on purpose. No, that was total, oh my gosh, that one wasn't even on purpose.
Speaker 1:No, that was not. After I said it I go, oh crud. And I just went and owned it.
Speaker 2:No, I was like yeah, no, I remember sitting there like did he just say that?
Speaker 1:And I go and I just was like keep moving.
Speaker 2:I was like does he realize that?
Speaker 1:that's what it yeah, I, as soon as it came out of my mouth, I go crud and I was like I'm just saying, because it was the play, it was the play-doh one, right yeah, oh, good the play-doh. It was the play-doh like where the play-doh got hard and I talked about pornography and then like they get soft and then, yeah, oh, I didn't.
Speaker 1:I didn't see that. I, after it came out of mouth and I looked at people looking back at me and I realized what happened and I just go, I'm just saying and I just pushed on.
Speaker 2:I thought it was hysterical. I was like okay.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I've been there. So I oh man, this is the difference between first-degree and second-degree murder.
Speaker 1:I, you know, I I probably have some, uh, katie sasses that would probably warn me. Don't say that, um, and you know it's going to, you're going to come off. Thankfully, in the past I've had women, as in preaching practice, at some point go. You know, you probably shouldn't say that. And I'm like, okay, yeah, cause I am preaching practice kind of, where I just let it go and just whatever comes out of my mouth comes out of my mouth, my mouth comes out of my mouth, and it's kind of fun, uh, and then I'm like, yeah, that would come off really bad and I'm sure Josh practices or whatever he does, but, um, maybe the you know, I don't know if he was in a, yes, culture. I don't think so at all, cause I think he's super humble Uh, but maybe they no one said anything cause I just thought it was funny. Yeah, anyway, are we going to?
Speaker 2:sorry, I don't mean to cut you off, I was just curious. Are we going to talk about the market?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's. We're going to move on. That one, um. But the question I want to answer do I think you did anything wrong? Wrong is such a? Is there anything neutral? Probably not, I don't know that. That's a hard one, wrong is a big label. It's a big label to throw yeah, I don't know if that's wrong, I think it's preference yeah, I think it's a discernment issue, like yeah it, he probably it's it's preaching style too.
Speaker 3:He's the type of preacher where for him, like that's the way that he preaches, probably, and for some other guys they separate their preaching from their joking like all together, yeah, and like there's almost never anything funny in their sermons and for them that probably wouldn't be in the context of their teaching.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and I obviously am probably the former where I love jokes in the sermon Right right, right and so because that's just my style and so I didn't have a problem with that Gosh, anyway, I hate to criticize him because, man, when you're preaching every week and you're trying to do the best you can, I don't think he's sitting there. I'm going to make women feel objectified, but he did plan it. I don't know.
Speaker 2:That's hard, but that's also our culture is like we take a two, three second clip of something and then we judge the whole entire thing, so it's like if people listen to the whole sermon, if they look at who he is as a person, it's like I'm sitting here looking at Google images of him and his family. And I'm like I I just think that listening to the full context of the sermon and not just taking out this like five second part of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If you were incomplete.
Speaker 1:Yeah, If you were at Lake Point church you would have loved. You would thought it was funny. You're probably like oh, that's just josh yeah but if you're not and you're in social media world, you're like what is wrong? That's why we hate christians. They're just blah, blah blah and now you're like you've now you don't want you may have put the unnecessary offense, there you go. An unnecessary offense there's there's definitely things to be offensive about. Like, we want to talk and he has done a great job.
Speaker 2:I probably would have been offended that he didn't include women in being excited about the wedding.
Speaker 3:Like I.
Speaker 2:I probably would have been like what the heck dude I was excited about too.
Speaker 1:Okay, right, right, it's not just for him. Yeah, that's good, that's good. Uh, so, yeah, okay, I don't know where I was going to go beyond that. Yeah, do you think so? Should he apologize? I think the the apology.
Speaker 2:It was political.
Speaker 3:It was wise.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was wise it.
Speaker 2:I don't think he should have apologized at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He just owned it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was for my, but.
Speaker 2:I'm also not a pastor. Yeah, I think.
Speaker 1:I think he should have said hey, that was for my church. And in context, I said this and and it there. If you, you could have taken it wrong like you know, not not the way Mo took it wrong, but if you analyze this and dug deep and said I was stereotypical, it was. That's why it's jokes are funny.
Speaker 1:And like in my style of preaching, is jokes, and I would have probably written a blog or had a separate thing, not in a Sunday sermon to apologize for it. But maybe he felt he had to do it in the same venue that he made the joke, so that might. And again, I don't know what his he probably submitted to his elders on this. I'm sure the leadership of that church said Josh, here's the direction you go. He's like got it. And they may have said, hey, here's a clip from somebody forever ago, do something like this. And he's like how much time do I spend on this Minimal he wanted to play it safe and playing it safe is apologizing.
Speaker 1:Gosh, how would I handle if I were in a similar situation, if I made a joke like that which again very possible Like, for example, someone took a clip of my my Plato thing posted on the internet and said this is just inappropriate. I've been like, yeah, listen to the whole sermon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was like listen to the whole sermon, but that just slipped. Sorry, uh, but if I had a planned one, like but if I had a planned one like, ah, that didn't go like I intended. I'm sorry if you're offended, but it was meant to be funny. And if you're offended by that, gosh my bad. But people in my church know my heart and they know me and I love them. They love me and that was an in-house thing that you got to kind of, you got you got to be an. I am with my people, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, and if you are personally offended by that, I will meet with you personally or whatever. Yeah, and then he'd have an autograph session, I don't know. There you go, uh, so okay, so I think that's how it is.
Speaker 1:Now let's go on to the other, the conference. Yeah, it's, I think it was. Was it strong men conference, something, something like that? And what was it? St louis, oh, I don't know where it was. Yeah, anyway, it was somewhere, not here. Uh, mark lindell, I think, was a pastor that hosted and, um, they had a male stripper, I think a vegas male stripper.
Speaker 2:Come on he was an ex male stripper, like so he, so okay, the. Basically, I saw the video on instagram, yep, and I was going through all the comments. Um, that's one of my favorite things to do now is like I watch controversial videos on instagram and I just read all the comments of everyone arguing. So everyone was saying like he wasn't he, he took his shirt off.
Speaker 1:It was weird.
Speaker 2:It was a bit weird for a men's conference. It was supposed to display like strength or something. Cause he's like he took his shirt off and I mean, I guess he was like really buff or something, and he's like climbing up this pole Right and then he, he like put a sword down his throat.
Speaker 3:He was doing. He was swallowing swords yeah, like he was doing. He was swallowing swords yeah, like he was doing.
Speaker 2:A bunch of like crazy things but he wasn't like it's not, like he was grinding against the pole. He wasn't doing anything.
Speaker 1:He wasn't like it wasn't like yeah, sensual, but it was like a bit interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but he he is. He was a male stripper in vegas right.
Speaker 1:so what? Was he now a christian? Yeah, he's now a christian. So he kind of was a person. Hey, it's the past I came from. I want to use my God-given gifts to glorify God. Hey, they asked me to do something kind of fun. I know I'll rip my shirt off. That's strong. Swallow a sword, that's cool, yep.
Speaker 2:And show my strength by climbing up a pole, that's right, that's right. Debatable.
Speaker 1:I watched it and I was like, listen, I'm a bit much. I'm why, listen, there's not much I'm not okay with and I felt weird by it, like I'm I'm about to go the edge of the limit on that kind of stuff because I'm like, yeah, anything feats of strength, that's kind of cool, but that was just I feel like maybe if he kept his shirt on yeah, ripping the like. There was no point to the shirt thing like it's not like you're at, like chippendales right and, and especially nowadays, with it like okay at our church.
Speaker 1:I can name off at least three same-sex attractive men and that are known, and or and I don't want to say same people that struggle with same-sex attractive might be. Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2:We're like that would be really weird.
Speaker 1:It would be, it'd be maybe difficult, like if they're okay. So on the flip side you throw a chick up there. She's like wearing a bra or something and is up on top of the pole and swallowing a sword.
Speaker 2:It's like she's supposed to be displaying strength, but if men are going to see, so now would somebody maybe lust after a guy lifting weights or something.
Speaker 1:Maybe I don't know. You know it wasn't a church, not that you know, I'm of the opinion which you're free to disagree on this. You can do whatever you want to communicate the gospel, but that was just to me a little much, that's just my preference and I wouldn't go there.
Speaker 2:Driscoll.
Speaker 1:Driscoll comes on the next day, and what happened?
Speaker 2:He comes on and says he senses a Jezebel spirit in the room and he's like this is a rebuke.
Speaker 1:No, he said, this isn't a rebuke. He was like, I'm not rebuking anybody.
Speaker 2:Oh, he said, this is just an observation.
Speaker 1:I'm just making an observation.
Speaker 2:This is an observation, but it kind of turned into a rebuke and he felt like it was I don't know something about a stripper and all this stuff. And then you hear the guy that put the sermon or put the retreat on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, conference.
Speaker 2:Conference. Yell from the back. You're out of line, mark.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so, mark, he goes. Okay, I'll receive that. And then he walked off the stage, walked off stage.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he said that the Jezebel spirit is alive and well. We just saw it earlier. And then he goes. We saw a platform, an altar, a pole he goes, an Asherah pole, and then a man putting a sword, and then, as soon as he started, he goes. Well, one day there's going to go off dude on, you know jesus. And then the dude kicked him off stage. Yeah, so first of all, I gotta admit that was the fact that he can come up with those references that quick.
Speaker 1:Yes, that was very impressive well, regardless of whatever I was like dude, you came up with that on the spot day before right, so the thing was that the day of was it that?
Speaker 1:no, I thought it was a day before, because he was praying for them all night and his and he was praying for him and then he, he came on just really concerned because I thought day one was the stripper guy and day two was mark, was it? Yeah, I think that's how that came, because he said he was, I've been praying on, I've been horse praying for you. Yeah, um, now it could have been. I may, I don't want to. Okay, I may misspeak.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I I, when I only saw a 10 second clip.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I, I thought he meant well, I've been praying for you all night about this Cause. I've been so disturbed and he kind of went through the Jezebel spirit thing.
Speaker 3:Now I don't know when I I appreciate, Mark, because it was weird but so a couple of things, yeah, cause after that, uh, so a couple of things, because after that, uh, the dude came on stage and then he said hey, this is not a way to confront a brother.
Speaker 3:First, the Bible says go to him in person. And then this is why it made me think it was the same day. He said after that uh, Mark and I were somewhere for 30 minutes and nowhere during those 30 minutes that he come up to me, Right? Um. But then, after all of that, they both got up on stage at the end, whether it?
Speaker 2:was that day or the next day and like hashed it out to each other. Yeah, exactly like mark apologized mark apologized.
Speaker 1:Another apology okay, you know, I appreciate that, okay. So I think that, yeah, man, that's weird, it is I like what Mark said.
Speaker 3:I well, yeah, if I saw that dude doing what he was doing taking his shirt off and swallowing swords out of left dude I'd be like this is ridiculous bro.
Speaker 2:But wouldn't you?
Speaker 1:leave as opposed to. I don't know, this is a hard one, cause do you well? No, no, no, no, but would you say something or would you leave? I mean so.
Speaker 3:If I'm an attender, I'm just leaving.
Speaker 2:But in Mark's case that's the weird part is that dude was actually right, he should have said it behind the scenes, he should have told that dude first, yeah. Instead, of like, going up on stage, but wasn't it?
Speaker 1:a public thing, so you need a public rebuke.
Speaker 2:I. But if you're going to do it, double down, don't apologize after. And I read in a comment that, like he probably felt like because his name was tied to it, that he needed to publicly make it known how he felt about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but you could do that by just leaving. I think, yeah, you can do that in a multitude of ways, yeah, like hey, I'm out.
Speaker 1:And then you know it could have been like hey, and then after, like, you leave and they said listen, I can't, I can't, like again, he's hanging out with, uh, mark lindell. I think is that I don't know if that. Anyway, pastor lindell, he's hanging out with him, john john lindell. He's hanging out with him backstage, he's not saying anything and he goes out there and says that it is kind of weird, that's weird that is weird.
Speaker 3:You could say, hey, I didn't agree with that and right now, as I'm about to go up, you better know I'm about to address it right and then right there, and then you'd be like you're not going up then yeah, and then or or be like hey man, I, I can't go up and preach you, just that, that thing I just saw, whether it was last night or today or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't go there. Yeah, so I feel like that part was, and mark kind of has a history of just, oh, I just went down a rabbit hole of watching his instagram videos yeah and like he doesn't hold back he's a wild man, he's a beast like if he's, he uh is not the guy.
Speaker 2:That is like how you say, you can't just say anything right. He says like he says whatever he wants right and like he's whatever he wants.
Speaker 1:Right, like he's calling people sluts.
Speaker 2:He's calling people like idiots.
Speaker 1:He's, I mean, he's just like he also said there's, you know, a pile of dead bodies behind the bus of Mars Hill, and I think that kind of like when I, when I heard that, I remember him saying that the original time he said and I go Ooh what's so?
Speaker 1:okay. So if you get in the way of the Mars Hill bus, you either get on or you get run over. And I understand what he's saying, like hey, we're going somewhere and if you're going to resist it, then get out of the way, or we're going to run you over. But that just is Mars Hill.
Speaker 1:It was his church back in the day, mars Hill church in Seattle, and now he passes a church in Arizona because he got fired from that church because of abusive leadership it but yeah, so like the one of the hugest mega church yeah, it was so sad because I loved mark leadership like he was the abusive leader and it was sad because because he would say stuff like that, right, and he'd be unapologetic about it until he was uh well, it's cool to be unapologetic, unless you're being an actual like a-hole yeah, and he was, and I think he couldn't own that and I think you know this is where, if you can't own your own sin, I think this is where paul david tripp was like meeting with him and he goes I cannot, he will not, he will not repent and it just.
Speaker 1:It was so big and so sad because we all loved the influence of Mark Driscoll had and calling men to be men.
Speaker 2:That's a big thing.
Speaker 1:I mean, like we need manly men and I don't even mind if, like I think, he is reaching a section of men that I don't think I could ever reach. That's not my deal.
Speaker 2:But like? Is he leading them to the heart of Jesus? Yeah, that's where it gets confusing Cause.
Speaker 1:most man, I don't know.
Speaker 3:This is where the question he just did a commentary on like his most, uh, like whatever controversial video, like the one that blew up the most where he is screaming, one where he's just screaming, and he goes how dare you?
Speaker 3:to a bunch of dudes in the audience of basically like as I'm, as I'm talking to this, you know, to y'all, right now you're whispering in her ear, don't say anything, don't look at me, we'll talk about this in the car. And then he goes off how dare you. And then he gives the background as he's commenting on that. But how does he know that? That's what they're? I don't know. But basically that's his like most controversial thing, right? And then he gives a commentary on it and he like starts like breaking down, weeping because he's talking about. That was in the context of the time when he just found out that his wife he never knew this about her she was like sexually abused before they got married, and a bunch of ladies in between the seven services that they had which tells you how big of a church it was uh, came up to him between the services telling him that they have been sexually abused.
Speaker 1:So he had a lot of like anger, um, and to me I would say that's righteous anger, okay, but but he does it seven times and every single service he has the same reaction. And I'm listening as one who preaches like that. I understand you can do that, yeah, um, but I think, um, mike cosper not that I'm a fan of him at all uh, from the christianity today, uh, because I thought he was a little bit, it was more of a hit piece than it was a um, uh, the rise and fall of mars hill yeah, I thought it was more of a hit piece than it was a documentary or whatever. Uh, he kind of called out, he kind of showed like kind of like each clip it was exactly the same. He's looking right at the camera and I'm like I don't know if that's a big deal, I just was.
Speaker 2:There's a part of it that felt like he knew, because he's a genius but what was he saying in the sermon that was causing women to come and tell them like he was.
Speaker 1:He was he was on their side. He's like he's taught. How dare you talk to a woman, how dare you hit a woman, how dare?
Speaker 1:you know like he was. It was really awesome. The thing he said I think was great. Yeah, I think it was great. Uh, cosper, who is a christianity today journalist, said it was more staged and I'm like, maybe, but he's making the point, yeah, um, and I think I think I what's kind of interesting not not that I'm anything spectacular, but I was on the video with with Driscoll on the. They did like a stepping up, was like a men's video and they had that clip on that video and then me telling my story on that video. So it's like this is like my, you know my claim to fame. There's like Mark Driscoll, matt Chandler, me I'm like nobody knows who I am, but I'm still on the same video. I was like such a cool thing Anyway, so, but but he's he's like yelling at the people on that and it was. I think the men need to hear that Like you were supposed to provide for your wife, protect your wife, pursue your wife, and he's kind of leaning in and that's what he always did.
Speaker 1:He would have like he would, he would kind and I think there now I'm not saying all men love this, but I think when I call out men here to be men, I think men like yeah, bring it, let's go. You know, and I think that's a powerful thing you know, don't be gay in a sense of not just homosexual, but just like don't be effeminate in your leadership. Be a man like go do it. Women want to follow you, they want to help you succeed in your mission. Um, so I think that that's where he did a good job of calling that out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's aggressive, he's very aggressive, he's an alpha male that people want to follow.
Speaker 2:Well, and what I'm reading right now is I'm reading gentle and lowly, and so it's kind of like he doesn't really represent a gentle and lowly spirit, and so I'm kind of like, as you're being this, very aggressive, intense, passionate, like it's like there are a lot of good things going on here, but it's like very aggressive.
Speaker 1:So was there a time you have to ask was Jesus ever aggressive 100% when he?
Speaker 2:was angry and flipping over tables.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then also when he's like woe to you, corazon, and woe to you, bethsaida. The miracles were formed in you that were formed in Sodom and Gomorrah. They were repented in dust and ashes, but you are going to like, you know.
Speaker 2:I think that's where cause I'm not saying I like or dislike Mark. Driscoll, I'm just trying to figure out what. What do I think? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Listen, he's a, he's a puzzle. Yeah, Like there's some things I just love about Mark Driscoll and then, like again, there's going to be a bunch of Like some of the things he says is a bit it's like oh wow, I mean like bro.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's like the video I was telling you about, about the throuple Like he like what he does is he'll play a video on his Instagram. Like his, he'll make a reel.
Speaker 1:It was like a threesome family.
Speaker 2:It's called a throuple. It's a dude and two chicks, and they're all three married.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:And which I think is absolutely ridiculous. Like what woman in her right mind would sign up for this, but like what man wouldn't want that Depends.
Speaker 1:Depends, depends, twice the.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think I see it as like cause they all three sleep together.
Speaker 1:Right, of course.
Speaker 2:And so you know they're on there. He's showing this video of where they're talking about how they navigate the marriage and how they it's like um, you know the trend where it's like we're, we're a state, I'm a stay-at-home mom, so of course I'd explore blah, blah, blah, like I'm a stay-at-home mom, so of course I like have y'all seen that trend?
Speaker 1:and it's like tribe wife. Oh yeah, is that what we're talking about? Yeah, traditional, traditional wives. Yeah, it's like tribe wife oh yeah, is that what we're talking about?
Speaker 3:yeah traditional, traditional wives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like blown up oh yeah, or it's like there's someone else, it's like I'm a dad.
Speaker 1:Of course I did it and they're going through the list of like of course, I chores, or like take care of the kids or yeah, like just some coach the team, or whatever and then so, like this throuple is doing that, they're like we're a throuple, of course we all sleep in the same bed together.
Speaker 2:We're a throuple, of course we all sleep in the same bed together. We're a throuple, of course we get into arguments like every other couple. We're a throuple, of course. We uh like have to schedule out when we're having sex with who we're. We're a throuple. And so, like he's playing this video and at the end of it I tried to find it before we started but it's like kind of far back, um, and oh my gosh, so it ends. And that's when he has his like few sentences of like what he's talking about and he goes. He says we're a threeple.
Speaker 1:Of course we're a bunch of dumb sluts and I was like driscoll says that yeah, yeah, and I was like oh yeah, and so you're like well, I was like yeah, aren't you a pastor? Right because and here's where that scripturally that's, don't judge those outside the church right now. I think you know, like you're now, it makes it super hard for them to be reached now, granted at the same time, like if we're called to win over the loss that's only going to push them away.
Speaker 2:Not that you should never say anything that might offend someone.
Speaker 1:I think you'd say that is sin, Repent.
Speaker 2:That was a bit rude.
Speaker 3:That was not loving. I think if he was here he would say well, god uses derogatory terms in the Old Testament that are as bad or worse than that, and my rebuttal to that would be.
Speaker 1:He does that through prophets and he does it to those who should know better.
Speaker 2:Yep so he's calling out israel right and I think that's the problem in proverbs, like he says people are fools, people are right and horse like ezekiel is pretty nasty, like it's very nice, like it's like a holy ab and her sister.
Speaker 1:I mean it's straight up pornographic with bestiality, it's wild. And so you're like, ooh. So when God calls that out, he's calling it out amongst those who should know better, and it's God.
Speaker 3:And it's God directly calling it out.
Speaker 1:And so I feel like that's where I'm like man. I.
Speaker 3:That's tough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like I said, do I love Mark, Do I want the best for Mark? Do I think Mark is born again? I have 100%. Do I think he loves his people passionately? I think he really does. I just think that he goes off the rails and it's a pastor like that. It's like you know, it's like a top gun. When you have Maverick as one of your fighters, you can't really trust him Cause you don't know where he's going to go and that makes it hard to follow, Like he that's. You know if you're going to be top gun, like, but do you want that guy with you in a fight? Yeah, you do, because he's on your team and he's fighting for it, but man.
Speaker 2:Like you, can't deny the passion that he has for living out the Bible and living out his faith.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right. Any other thoughts on, on all, on our, you know, current event moment of the week of of the Howerton Driscoll thoughts? Lots of apologies, lots of apologies. Real quick on that. He apologized.
Speaker 3:Do we?
Speaker 2:know what he said, like what his apology was.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I just just as soon as I saw that he went up there to apologize, I turned off the video. I got so pissed because I was like bro, you had guys walk out of that conference as soon as he kicked you off stage, right. And so those were all the dudes that were like dude, that's my man, you spoke up. I was thinking the same thing and now all those dudes felt like they got smacked in the middle like that's messed up dude.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you're gonna do something like that, you better stand up for it or don't do it at all right, yeah, or just don't do it yeah, just don't do it, walk out and be like you know, be quiet about it and move on, and then you can say hey, listen, john, here's my personal letter to you. Yeah, yeah, it was the way that he I think, I think I agree with him, think everyone sort of agreed with him, but the way he handled it, no, it wasn't good yeah. Okay.
Speaker 2:Any other thoughts from you, katie, being a pastor?
Speaker 1:sounds like it's a lot. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's pretty accurate. All right, hey everyone. Thanks for watching Pastor Plex podcast. Make sure you like, share and subscribe. Let people know that we're here talking about stuff that matters to you as we talk faith, culture and everything in between. Just remember text us in and you can ask any questions. 737-231-0605. From our house to yours, have an awesome week of worship.