Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Faith and the Art of Leadership
298: Pastor Plek and Machine Gun Nick explore faith and leadership with Eric Creekmore, a former F-18 fighter pilot turned Executive Director of the Association Hill Country Churches. Their conversation uncovers the nuances of church planting, the importance of diverse roles within ministry, and the often-overlooked heroes behind the scenes. They delve into the challenges and strategies of personal evangelism, touching on the necessity for leaders to be adept in sharing the gospel and cultivating a culture of authentic Christian transformation.
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and welcome back to pastor flex podcast. So glad all of you are joining us as we talk faith, culture and everything in between. And joining me in studio is none other than machine gun nick.
Speaker 2:Welcome, machine gun nick hello folks, how you doing today and also uh former f-18 fighter pilot, eric creekmore welcome back.
Speaker 3:What's up? What's up play. Good to see you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good to see you, man, this is so fun if you didn't know, eric is the up-and-coming executive director of the association hill country churches and that's right when we talk about that. What exactly does that mean?
Speaker 3:yeah. So over the years of our network here in austin, as we've added more churches, we've realized the need of better organization, like how do, as a group of individual churches, band together, work together to see more churches planted? And so as a network, as an organization, that organization needs leadership. And so we've figured out over the past couple of years like, okay, what does that need to be? Executive director, who's going to lead that charge, liaison with the board and the member churches, in order to say, okay, here's where we're going, here's what we're going after, here's what the ask is of the member church, here's what the network, the association, is going to do, and to marry those resources so that we can go further, faster together.
Speaker 1:The way I look at it is you're kind of like the new roger goodell. All right, yes, all right. So each church is like a, like a franchise team 100 and we make trades and stuff. But like you gotta have some sort like we have draft picks when yeah you know the, you know the the 2024 25 season's coming up, that's right and uh, we know we just did our draft day and we're picking up the new church planners and who's going to draft those guys?
Speaker 1:And there has to be some organization to that or it's just complete chaos.
Speaker 3:Right. So like, for example, two things that we do as a network one in the fall is a church planting conference one day here in Austin, and the second is our assessment in the spring, which we'll talk about here in a minute. And no member church can pull off a conference on church planting on their own, but the network can, does have the bandwidth to organize that, leverage the capacities of the member churches to contribute to that, and then we can do that together, to contribute to that, and then we can do that together. And so to your point, using the NFL analogy, you need that organization in place to bring all those resources together so that we can do so we can have a combine and a draft, we can have a 40 yard dash.
Speaker 3:We're going to get Nick out there and sprint.
Speaker 1:It's going to be fantastic.
Speaker 2:Does he have it? That is the question.
Speaker 1:Well, let's talk about that because not everybody is meant to be a church planter and one of the things that Keith Ferguson, who's a pastor at City View, Bible and I guess he's the current executive director and we're going to be shifting that because he's going to become like the chairman of the board to allow, because managing a church full-time and then managing the association full-time is impossible.
Speaker 1:But one of the things he said, dang it. We lost where I was going to go with that. Oh yeah, there's about a hundred things that you can do in ministry and church planning is just one of those things. And I think sometimes, and especially in an association that has a focus on church planning, we can think that the only thing especially if you're a type A person you're like I just want to do the hardest best thing. And it's not the hardest best thing, it's a thing Because all hundred things are valuable. Now it might be the sexiest thing. It's just like if you were going to go be an airborne ranger. Not everybody can be an airborne ranger and not everybody should be an airborne ranger.
Speaker 1:And there's a hundred other things you can do in the army, and not everyone's called to be an airborne ranger. But we need airborne rangers and sometimes they get a little bit more glory because they're at the tip of the spear putting lead down range, and so everyone's like that's what I want to be. But if you're, if you're not an airborne ranger, I mean if you're a guy that's, you know, getting beans and bullets to the front, they're just as necessary as the guy firing those beans and bullets that's very true because, uh, so I don't know if you're familiar with the term pogue yes, personnel other than grunt.
Speaker 2:well, they changed it around and they're like a protector of of grunts and I was like huh. That's an interesting take on it. Like you know everything but physical security. Basically that's what you know. The support personnel is like you know, if I didn't have somebody giving me bullets and fixing my boo-boos and making sure the admin stuff, the paperwork wasn't done right, I couldn't do paperwork in the Army Right. I could teach you how to shoot things, yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, that's right.
Speaker 2:And, like you know, other things that we probably shouldn't talk about here. But yeah, exactly, but all that other stuff that had to happen, right, those other ten people that, just so I could do my job.
Speaker 1:Right it. 10 people. That just so I could do my job. It takes about 10 people to get one instrument. Yes, right, yes.
Speaker 2:And, and you know, and oh gosh, I I never, never, really did tell them my appreciation for them, Cause I really didn't appreciate it. I was just like, yeah, whatever, get me to the front, Let me do my thing Right, like, and you had the pleasure or unpleasure of knowing me back then. Thank you, the unpleasure.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it All right. Okay, good, All right. So let's talk then about an assessment.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What did we do? Because we just did an assessment, and let's just talk about that in layman's terms for all of our people out there who have no idea what we're talking about when we talk about an assessment, but I kind of call it the combine. Would that be a good way to put?
Speaker 3:it. Yeah, it's a big, in-depth, thorough interview for the planter and their spouse if they're married, run by other planters and their spouses, to really do an A to Z on that couple to see if they have best, as you can tell on the front end what it takes to be successful planting a church. Because, like what you were saying a second ago about those hundred things that you can do in ministry, that church planting sliver arguably has the highest level of gifting needed, the biggest clarity of calling, the most individual and family alignment as to what we are stepping into. The number of boxes that you have to tick off in order to step into church planting in ministry is probably one of the longest lists. Ministry is probably one of the longest lists and so to do a good assessment interview it takes some thoroughness to really dive into that.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's talk through. Really, there's three primary areas that you need to have, and within those three prime areas, there's like four subcategories, and so we I call them starting skills. Well, I call we call them starting skills, sustaining skills and self-awareness. Yeah, and so, uh, machine gun nick. This is one of the things I want you kind of think of as you're looking at this. You might look at what are the things you see in me, because it's like you're asking these assess these assessors to see through a lot of questions, through a lot of hours of interviews, to make an assessment over really a 36 hour period which probably is near impossible, but once, if you've been doing this a while, which you know you and I have, you can like.
Speaker 1:one sentence tells us a whole slew about somebody without you know what you're saying by not saying it is this.
Speaker 1:So let's just talk through starting skills for a second. Um, this probably is. I don't want to say all of these skills are essential, but you have to have some degree of all these skills. And so we talk about starting skills. We're talking about relationship building, the ability to emotionally connect with other people, and usually we're saying, in a quick, short period of time that can last over a long haul, okay, right, so let's just talk about let's just it's relationship building, personal evangelism, ability to contextualize and catalytic leadership. Let's just talk relationship building for a second. As we were looking at candidates this weekend, what were the things you were looking for in relationship building?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's, it's the basics of can you build rapport with someone? Where it's like, man, I just met Nick. Seems like a great guy, love talking to him. It's like one of those things where you'd walk away from the interaction going man, I'd love to grab a beer with Nick and hang out again. Right Versus, like maybe, someone who you walk away with, like that dude just talked about himself for an hour or more of a non-person where you, you walk away. You're like, yeah, we talked about something, but they're kind of forgettable, they're an NPC.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're an.
Speaker 3:NPC, A non-playable character. That's exactly right, and so you're just trying to see is this the kind of person that can build rapport, build relationship, build friendships easily and quickly? It's like man. I'd love to hang out with that guy. Okay, check, you probably can, in the church planning context, gather a diverse group of people in order to be the beginnings of a church. You kind of need the guy to be fun At some level. I don't want to follow the non-fun guy.
Speaker 1:So are you the life of the party? Not necessarily, but that's a plus. It's a plus if you are, but can you at least, at the party, hold your own and not be the wallflower in the corner going? Dear God, get this party over with. Hold your own and not be the wallflower in the corner going like dear God get this party over with yeah or the or the idiot who's doing idiot things where you're?
Speaker 3:like bro, you got to put a governor on that man you can't say that the fool yeah. Can't say that Right yeah.
Speaker 1:Knowing your audience Right. And when can you, you know, you know, be another difference between the two, right, right? So, um, that's the uh relationship building ability. All right, let's go to the next one Personal evangelism. Yeah, like, let's talk through this as far as personal evangelism, um, like, how, how, what were you looking for when you were looking for a personal evangelism stuff, as we get into the church planting endeavor.
Speaker 3:If you are not able to, or have the courage to, engage people, not just at a relationship, friendship level, but get to the gospel right, you are not fit to plant a church. Because and what we say in the, in the network, in our network here, is, if you're not reaching new people with the gospel, all you're really doing is shuffling Christians around the deck and not impacting culture, you're not really impacting lostness. And so, absent an evangelistic, not just, but conviction right, like I have to do this man, that is a non-starter if that's not there for a potential plan and that's kind of why we don't like single out or shoot for people that already go to a different church.
Speaker 1:Right, right, yeah, you don't exactly yeah, the kind of goal isn't that you just hey there's everybody at that other church.
Speaker 2:They're weak sauce church, let's get them to come to our church like you know, like that's, yeah, that's not the goal, that's the wrong answer it kind of creates like and that's why we can work together, like if church players all they were doing was like going like they'd show up at wells branch to take 50 people that show up another church, take 50 people.
Speaker 1:Well then, we just move people around as opposed to reaching people far from god. We can all come together to reach there's enough lost people to go around but when you start like you know, kind of go in the other direction.
Speaker 1:I'm just like let's just move membership around. That doesn't help anybody. So kind of like what I was. Like does this person demonstrate a deep passion for sharing the gospel with unreached people? So people that are in your neighborhood and there are, there's enough to go around. It's not like we live in like the. You know I live in the Christian cul-de-sac where everybody loves Jesus. You know you live in a place where people are probably far from God and your name. If you haven't talked to your neighbors and said, hey, I am a follower of Jesus, or threw up the flag at some point, invited them over, had dinner with them, then you're probably not going to be a great church planter.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:That is just the route.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's just facts.
Speaker 1:Or if you're not intentional at work with non-believers, right, if you're not intentional now with non-believers, then you're probably not going to be a good church planter. Yeah, now with non-believers, then you're probably not going to be a good church planter. If you kind of turn off people because you have a caustic personality, you're probably not going to be a good church planter.
Speaker 3:We're just over the top with it, like the caricature Bible thumper kind of individual who, like there is a genuine care that you have to have, like I'm not just, I'm not just getting into a conversation with nick because my sole purpose is to get him into romans and make sure that he knows that he's going to hell or not, but it's like no, actually like nick's a good dude, god loves nick, and how do I get him the only message that is going to reconcile him to that?
Speaker 1:God, that's my heart, I care about you as a person 100%, and because I care about you as a person, I'm going to tell you the most important thing I need to tell you.
Speaker 2:I'll probably just cut you guys off from saying it. Not just do I care about you as a person, god cares about you as a person, 100% Like God, cares about you, as a person, 100% like your father in heaven, is here to give you love that you've never even experienced before. And I mean, I have to remember that, that realization, when you were telling it to me, and the way I felt, and that's what you know we're talking about, like when you when I, when I, when I like, first met you and first started coming, yeah, yeah and just all the things with that.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Like oh, this is serious. Yeah yeah, oh, this is real. This isn't just, we're not just putting on a phony face to be like to do recruitment. No, this is like there's a God above, there's a Father above that loves me unconditionally and you know, especially when you haven't felt that ever.
Speaker 1:It's like whoa, yeah, that's right, it's powerful. And so the other thing we're looking for is do you, do you know how to share the gospel, right? And I think one of the things that over all the assessments I've done, usually I go, hey, we share the gospel with me and I'm not just talking about this specific assessment, but in general for the last 10 years or so, I go, sure, how would you? Hey, I'm like I I'm like I'm a sinner. What must I do to be saved? What happens with a lot of guys who want to be church players? They get stuck there, right, and that can't be a place where you get stuck. That's like the softball.
Speaker 1:Right, and it should be one thing that you could, should be able to do. Right, it's go circles if it's the three circles whatever the thing is you got to know it by heart and then train people to do it as well because, when you don't, you, whatever you, whoever you are and whatever you do, it's what's going to be replicated.
Speaker 1:So if you don't know, well, then your people won't know, and the best hope you have is church transfer. And we're not interested in church transfer. Nope, okay, um, yeah, I think that that, to me, was one of those things that I was sort of surprised by it. Not just when I've gone through the hiring process of pastors, I come across that question all the time and it's like if all the gospel was was a seminary class for you, then you're probably not going to be a fit in one of the Association of Hill Country Churches.
Speaker 3:No then you're probably not going to be a fit in one of the association hill country churches. No, in fact, we weed out in the pre-assessment process, I think, more guys on the question. Hey, just tell me the last time you shared the gospel and how it went. Yeah, and how recent that story is right, and if there is more than one right, right so and and it's hard sometimes like I, I feel like.
Speaker 1:So, if you were to ask me that, the last person I shared the gospel with last week a guy that came to our group because sam tyfkey tag teamed he said, hey, I'm sending. I met this guy at the gym, I'm sending him to your house. The guy came, which was wild nice, uh, did you meet drew?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, so drew shows up I'm like, hey, drew, what's your story? He's like I don't know, I guess I'm looking for god. And then I'm just like, bam, easy, you're here. Yeah, romans 3, 3, 23 for all have sinned fallen shortly go away. God, what does that mean to you? And he's like uh we're all sinners good for the wages of his death.
Speaker 1:What's that mean to you? And he's like you die when you sin right and the opposite, or the opposite or the other part of that verse is but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. What's that mean? You go to heaven. Yeah, you just kind of walk it through with him, and so we did Romans 5a, Romans 10, 9. And then I was like is there anything preventing you right now from accepting Christ as your Savior?
Speaker 3:And he's like no, I guess not.
Speaker 1:And so we prayed, you know, prayed the prayer of salvation. Now that's like step one of like a gazillion for him of, you know, taking the next steps to kind of really own his own faith, but, like, at some point he's got to receive it. And so that's one of the things that I always challenge church players If you're not, if you don't have a, if that's not on the edge of your lips at all times, when someone says I'm here to grow spiritually, right and you go hey, is you ever accepted christ? No, would you like to learn about that? Yes, right, bam. I mean that that's like softball type stuff that guys need as a church planner, right, because when you tell that story of how you got to lead somebody christ, they're like that's all you did, yeah it was that easy and so.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think having a plan for that is but yeah like it really is that easy, because I remember when you brought me to that prayer, yeah, like I was on the phone, I was, you know, inspecting drywall and paint on a house, right Working, and like it's it was like six o'clock on a Thursday or something like that, or Friday, and you're like are you ready?
Speaker 1:And I was like, yes, I am, and I'll never forget that moment like ever, and it you know it was life-changing, yeah, it's and and so that's, it has to start somewhere, otherwise what happens is people kind of they think they're a christian but they're not sure right and they don't know. And then what happens? Like over time they don't act like a christian and there's never a point where you're like, well, you, you said that you wanted to fall, you prayed for Jesus to be in your life, and if you don't have that, to kind of start people off with as far as it's hard to hold them accountable to do the next step, yeah.
Speaker 3:So that's good.
Speaker 1:Um, okay, so let Personal evangelism obviously huge. How about the ability to contextualize? Talk to me about what that is. When I say the word contextualize is that.
Speaker 2:I'm at a loss, okay, good, very much so I hate to admit that.
Speaker 1:Explain what contextualization means.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we all know that in any city there are different pockets where people are different, right?
Speaker 3:So you may have like an artsy district, or you may have like the downtown business district with the high rises, you may have the cool hipster section of the city and then you have the suburbs with the you know, 2.5 kids and the lawn, and then you have, outside of that, more rural areas where each of those contexts have different people who think differently, who use different language, who have different sets of values.
Speaker 3:And there is a necessity on the part of the church planter to take this same gospel message and contextualize it to that particular person in that particular geography. Because the same way, like I don't talk to a drywaller, the same way I talk to a surgeon, right, I use different phrasing, I bring up different examples and illustrations. It's that kind of thing as it pertains to like okay, I'm here in an area where it's young singles that are all trying to climb the corporate ladder. Okay, well, how does the gospel show up here? What kind of church would appeal to them? And to be able to think through and be nimble with what you do for the person you're trying to reach versus the person who's less able to contextualize, who's like I know one method and I do the one method and this is the only method.
Speaker 1:I use Right. So like you know, especially here, like Wells branch is a super diverse sort of place.
Speaker 1:And so to be here in Wells branch, the thing you have to contextualize is you've got the urban, poor sort of living in subsized housing, in the apartments next door, and then you've got the suburban world right across the street, uh, which is, you know, young families, starter homes, excited about, you know, starting a family, and you've got both of those. And to be able to talk to both those types of people at the same time is really hard to do. And so to be able to talk to it's like it's like talking to an e2 who's been the army for three years, uh, and then also talking to a tenant colonel. You've got to be able to kind of talk to both at the same time and sort of help them understand how the gospel penetrates their life and it's important. So for some person you might be talking to their stock portfolio and the next guy you're going to talk about the best ways to work the system to get some size housing.
Speaker 1:You've got to be able to kind of like go down both roads to kind of help people wrap their head around, that you can trust me and I want to. I want what's best for you and here's how jesus is going to meet the, the, the needs that you have in your life, and in fact you were designed for him, not him for you. So like that's a huge shift in someone's mindset. But you have to start where, like I become all things to all people, so I might win some, and that's that's kind of the. That's where that comes from.
Speaker 2:Yep, well, and that's right now where I'm at. That's really hard for me to to embrace, because I'm really good with say you know, you're gritty cowboys, soldiers, probably motorcycle riders, like those kinds of people, yeah. But then you go over here to the group at the coffee house in the hipsters and man purses, yeah, in the man purses. We won't get into that yet. But yeah, and then I'm at a loss. Right now I'm just like, well ah.
Speaker 1:So probably for you what I would say is like hey, you need to plant a cowboy church, and that would probably be the that's a great idea, but I think there's so much more that I could.
Speaker 2:I think there's a little growth that needs to happen. Sure, and a cowboy church, I would love it. I love those guys. They come to church. They got their guns on the outside, not concealed 100% bro.
Speaker 3:They take their hats off when we pray and then they put them back on.
Speaker 2:That's and pray and then they put them back on Because we wear hats. I love it, I do, and that might be a thing, but also I kind of feel like the temple Killeen area is where.
Speaker 3:I'm feeling called right now.
Speaker 2:It's to go back to my roots, the army. And you know those guys and ladies and they need Jesus.
Speaker 3:Nick.
Speaker 2:They do, they really do, and that's where I was going with that is they need God, and who else can talk to them but somebody who's walked that walk?
Speaker 3:Right, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2:You're not going to get. I've even come to find out that there's like a whole group of rough men out there. Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:That. Just want a pasture.
Speaker 1:That's freaking real yeah, like and not effeminate, dare you said it, I said it the best way I, I couldn't bro right and I think that's so there, there needs to be churches that are like that, because if you have that, you're going to be able to draw men who are like, and so what's what a church typically does? It draws people that are like you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1:And so that means where do I go contextually, as people like me, that it's not going to be a stretch for me to reach them.
Speaker 3:Right. So you just did contextualization. When you talked about Temple Killeen, you said I know some things about myself, I know who I resonate with, and so I would best be a fit in this kind of context.
Speaker 1:boom, you just did it yeah, and what it's cool about that is you have a specific niche which isn't, like, based on a race. It's based on a mindset yeah, it's, and it's not based on like, because it's cowboy military, harley, harley, yeah, all the guys that kind of come from that environment and guys that were soldiers are going to resonate with you. In fact, most of the guys.
Speaker 1:You brought a large spectrum of people to the church that are from different backgrounds, ethnicity, socioeconomic but they've all sort of had that one sort of like they love the way you are and that's sort of what draws them is you, and so you want obviously to draw them to Christ. But the way that you contextualize the gospel, you say, look how the gospel has penetrated my life and it becomes a powerful like you can talk guns and you can talk, you know military stuff, and that gets people excited to kind of follow you. Yeah, okay, let's move on to from ability to contextualize to entrepreneurial or catalytic leadership. What do you see that as?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so let's just continue to play with the Nick and Colleen example, right? So catalytic leadership is the kind of guy who doesn't wait around for someone to do something. They see a need and they go after it. They're a self-starter, they're self-sufficient. They're the kind of guy who says something needs to get done about this. I'm not sure how to do it, but I'm going to'm gonna try something. I'm gonna start.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna start trying stuff and see what happens and I'll figure it out as I go right build the airplane as it's flying right, but it's the kind of guy that has a bias for action, right, like they don't need to sit and plan and plan, and plan, and plan, and plan and plan. They go. Ok, we have enough of a plan. We need to start executing on some stuff to see, you know what's going to work and what's not going to work. Hundred percent. Let's try it.
Speaker 2:I'm going to throw it up and see what sticks, to see what falls.
Speaker 1:That's right, let's try. It is kind of like the motto of the catalytic leader guy let's try it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or like from our background, an 80% plan executed violently now is better than 100% plan executed later.
Speaker 2:Next week, exactly 100% Right. They're not on the objective anymore.
Speaker 3:Yeah, enemies moved on, yeah, this is where you've got.
Speaker 1:So what it does is it takes like the excitement and then it puts a plan behind it that's executed rapidly, and so that's, that's the essential part of it. So strong organizational problem solving skills see a problem, puts a solution to it, execute, and so that's all part of the catalytic leadership. Yep, ok, let's go back to real quick. We're gonna go on to some sustaining skills. Uh, preaching, you gotta preach.
Speaker 2:So talk to me about that.
Speaker 3:Uh yeah, yeah. So what? What this is not is being able to like stand in front of a thousand people and have an amazing sermon with these amazing illustrations and you got people laughing and crying and just all these things in a, in a sermon. No, this is the guy who's capable to open the Bible, give a message that adheres to what the scripture is actually saying, so it's biblically accurate, and people walk away getting something out of it, right. Right, so do you teach and or preach in a way that the listener goes, oh, that was helpful, right? Not only do I know what the scripture says and what that guy was saying, but I know how it impacts me and what to do about it. Yep.
Speaker 1:That's it, and so, and so here's why this matters, like the initial people that come to your church don't care about how you preach, they just don't care. That's right. They just like you. That's right. But the ones that they invite.
Speaker 1:But hold on, but you can't stink, right, you can't stink. Oh, okay that you have no relational context with to come and hear you, and if you're terrible, they're like hey, bro, I like you as a person, I don't like him, I can't relate to that, I'm out, and so that's where communication is not. It's not the primary thing for starting a church, but it's a huge thing in sustaining the church.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the way we say it is in a small church, like a church plant, that if you pastor them well, they'll let you preach to them. Yeah, but in a big church, like, just say, 500 and above who knows what the actual number is If you preach well, then they'll let you pastor them. That's exactly right, right. So it's an interesting size, dynamic thing where they will connect with you to what you're saying. Plek, as a person, yeah, you have to be competent. You can't like bore people to tears, but if you're good enough, then how you back to what we said a minute ago relate to them as, like man, I love hanging out with Nick. Yeah, sermons are solid. Yeah, but man love hanging out here.
Speaker 3:He's a good dude, good dude, great group of people. Boom, you got it. You have enough communication in order to back to where this category is sustain the work going forward and you get better at preaching over time oh it takes reps, yeah, and it's all reps that's all right. You need reps, reps and more reps reps, reps and more reps, yep 100.
Speaker 1:All right, let's talk about the next one, which which is resilience Yep, yep. So I think this is where you you demonstrate ability to persevere in the past ventures and you've risen above adversity. So how did you do during COVID? Did you shut down?
Speaker 2:or were you like, I mean cause.
Speaker 1:Everybody felt the beating of. Covid, and not every pastor has a season of actual COVID, but you have a season that's like that. We're just. No matter what you say, it's wrong. No matter what you do, it's wrong, no matter. You know money issues a financial strain. How is in? People are coming to you and you know you're having to marry and bury and carry the burdens of people. How do you handle?
Speaker 3:adversity, right? So I'm sure you guys have had someone you know, an aspiring young man, who's like oh, nick, you were this and that in the arm of your plaque, right? How did you do it? Like, how'd you get through bootcamp? How'd you get through that school? How'd you do Right? Did you get through bootcamp? How'd you get through that school? How'd you do right? Whatever right. And at the end of the day, what we all say is you know how you get through, don't quit, don't quit, don't quit, right. And at some level it's like is that overly simplistic? Well, no, not really.
Speaker 1:that's really the answer you know who I think really embodied this the most is james foster at taylor bible church. Oh yeah, he's never quit yeah like we would give him feedback, coaching, and it was like ripping his soul out yeah, and he'd be like we're gonna stomp your guts right now.
Speaker 3:James, are you ready?
Speaker 1:and are you gonna? Are you gonna move forward or? Are you just gonna be like crumble. Oh, I hate you guys. I'm out of here and he at every hundred percent took the the challenging um feedback, feedback and didn't quit. That's all it takes.
Speaker 3:Kept going.
Speaker 1:Don't you know what? You always say this about sports I'll take heart over talent every time, and heart is I will do whatever it takes to get to the level of whatever I need. And those guys usually end up being some of your best church planners because they've had to go through so much struggle just to get to the place of planning. The guys with a lot of talent. They don't realize the amount of adversity they're going to face because they've gotten over adversity with just being purely gifted. But eventually everyone comes to the point where they are tested in their ability to persevere A hundred percent. Okay, and that's just having optimistic attitude of we can do it. Yeah, all right, let's go. Next one would be disciple making leadership development.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So if the evangelism piece that we talked about a couple of minutes ago is like step one, this is step two slash, just as important. Right, because in today's day and age, the again the world, the world of church, according to Eric, is, this is the maker break. Are you able to make a disciple who goes on to make a disciple, right, right. So you look at like a two, timothy, two, two, where Paul tells his protege, timothy, hey, take what I've given you and train faithful men who can train others also, right, right. If you are unable to take your life in Christ and multiply it such that someone else can live that out absent you like, after they do whatever you're calling discipleship with them, they're able to go and do it with someone else. Good to go, a hundred percent, let's rock on.
Speaker 3:But so so many people, so many pastors, church leaders, are running programs thinking that they're doing discipleship when they're not. And how do you know? Because those people aren't able to replicate in their own life with other people absent. That program, right, whatever it is, the program did, right, right. And so if that's not there, what you have is the pastor up front doing all the stuff and everyone else is just consuming Right and it's never going to work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to be fair, I think this is where our church struggled. After we planted our first church, I think I didn't have a good system or engine. You know kind of the invest and invite strategy worked awesome. It works awesome. If you never planned a church cause, then I you can come, bring to me, I'll do some teaching.
Speaker 1:Your main job is just get people to show up at church, but then when you send off those people that bring the people to church, then now all of a sudden you're like, oh, crud Um, we actually don't do anything here. We need to start discipling men, to disciple men, without me going. All right, everyone open up your Bibles, and that is super hard, and so you have to have. So, if there's a good analogy, in the car there's the starter, but then the engine is what then makes the car go? You need someone to get it going, you need someone to get started, and evangelism is awesome, but to have people to grow in their faith and to continue pushing the church forward on its mission, you need discipleship as a holistic ministry, being something that's there and knowing how to do that. So you're about ready to step into discipleship, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am. Uh, this is, this is time. This is the second time, though this. There was a first time um, I was living through Walmart, uh, hades, at that time Didn't really have time for it and I really wasn't sure what I was getting into. And this time I know what I'm getting into and I think I'm more ready for that call to to disciple. And my understanding is because at first I wasn't really I didn't understand the overview of it. But when it was put in perspective that a pastor that that, say, he's baptizing 5,000 people a week, right, right, it's never going to meet the numbers that if I disciple one person a year, right, Bingo and they disciple a person a year.
Speaker 2:Will ever reach.
Speaker 3:Right Bingo.
Speaker 2:Especially when we're looking at an earth that has 8 billion people on it Yep. Oh, by the way, by the way, just for your information.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's that kind of mindset and conviction that we're looking for in planters. Do you not just know that, intellectually, what Nick just said, but do you believe that in your gut?
Speaker 1:So the couple things here, there are some programmatic things. You're going to regen, yeah, so that's a discipleship Incubator, incubator, right, yeah, so that kind of gets you healthy enough to actually start doing it. Yeah, that's good, yeah, we got. And do you have? So you have regen at hill country, right? We do not.
Speaker 2:You don't have. Okay, so you're going to city view. Yeah, I'm going to city view.
Speaker 1:Okay, so then, um, and so what kind of the goal is for that when you go on tuesday nights at regen is you start to work on all of the junk that the gospel applies to that hasn't been dealt with, and now you're going to be able to get to that place of healing through the gospel power, and then now you're gonna be able to take other guys through that and through and we have a discipleship pathway. That's not quite as extensive as regen as a program, but it's kind of like once you kind of now you're going to be doing both at the same time, which should be interesting, right, but we'll be challenging you to kind of take that, take everything you've learned about, um, being a worshiper of god, being someone who confesses, repent sin, being a person who's a good steward, a servant, uh, family member of the body, a covenant member, knowing what god has done for you and you're part of his body, being a witness of Christ and being a disciple maker. All those things are going to kind of pour into you so that you then pour them forward, and I think that's huge. And so part of also in this, like leadership development, is like can you run a community group, can you train others to lead a small group, and then can you also lead people to disciple one another. So again, that's the engine that makes a church go.
Speaker 1:If you have no other programs, because everything is a program other than community groups and discipleship, that's pretty good. And then, as a church grows, you add stuff like men's ministry, women's ministry and those kinds of things. Um, but yeah, those that's huge. Okay, let's move forward and we'll spend all our time there.
Speaker 3:Futuring skills.
Speaker 1:Talk to me about what futuring skills are.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Um futuring skills are yeah, um, futuring skills is being able to kind of kind of what the term is look out into the future and assess, okay, what's coming, what do we need to account for? Plan for now in order to be in the best position. Then, right. So it's like okay, back to a military analogy. You know you have to take such and such piece of ground that the enemy currently has. All right, what am I gonna need in order to do that? Whether it be personnel, um, firepower, all the rest, I'm able to imagine what that battle is going to look like and then go there so, right backwards, plan it, out, it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a hundred percent, right.
Speaker 3:So I'm in a church scenario. We're at 50 people. We've just launched, we've kind of got our feet underneath us what staffing needs to look like in order for us to be a hundred. Okay, well, I'm going to need some admin help. We're definitely going to need someone to be over children's, at least in a-time situation, and because I'm really good at preaching but I'm less good at evangelism, I'm going to need to raise up an evangelist to help us, right? So you're able to see the pieces that you will need then and begin to build them and look for them now. Yes, that's futuring skills.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So does that make sense? Cause what you know, you know we do focus every year. So focus is where I say, okay, this is the focus for our church for this year and this past year it was blessed. We're going to use the blessed model begin with prayer, listen to someone's story, eat with them, serve them, share your story of grace. So we've kind of made that church-wide. That's our focus this year and this next year we're gonna do bless 2.0, because I feel like it takes about two years for that to get that in, to seat into people's souls 100 and so we're gonna do that again this year.
Speaker 1:Um, but then also within that, it's like as a church, I'm like, okay, we have a lot of apartments next to us, what are we doing to reach them? And one of the things that was really cool that um pastor mo brought like let's do vacation Bible school. Nobody is going to do a backyard Bible club in all these apartments, but they will come, they can walk right over here to a vacation Bible school. Which I thought was like, maybe it's true, maybe, but man, the fact that we got like almost 100 people signed up without even trying, yeah right, we got a dilapidated sign out on the Wells Bridge Parkway that somehow people found out about. And so that's where you're like huh, because the backyard Bible club is way more conducive to a suburban mindset where Back to contextualization, Exactly what's going to be most effective here.
Speaker 3:And so where my brain immediately goes, even as you tell those few details, is like okay, this is a group of people that can you help me with my kids? Right, we're cooped up. You know now I'm speculating. Right, we're cooped up in this apartment. Man, I would want to get them out of there, but I don't want them like just running the streets getting into trouble. I want something productive and helpful. Oh, you're going to help me with that, Wells branch community church, awesome.
Speaker 1:And then next thing, you know, boom, there's your inroad. So so what pastor mo is doing from eight I mean this is wild 8, 30 to 3, 30 monday through friday. On this one week we're doing a vacation bible school. So I'm pretty excited about it. It's it's a, you know, lofty goal for us and as I'm watching all the signups, I'm like oh dear lord, please give us some volunteers anyways. Well, okay.
Speaker 3:So now let's go back to featuring skills, right? So what I would be asking, mo, is what, if you're successful Yep, how are you going to integrate those people into, and follow up with them into, wells Branch? Because what we tend to do is I'm just focused on that Monday through Friday and getting through the thing and all the volunteers and getting make sure everyone there's enough juice and crackers and lunch, and then you get to Friday and you fall over tired and you're like, oh, what are we going to do with all these people that we just connected with?
Speaker 1:And you have to have a system that can withstand the growth and so kind of like, what's going on?
Speaker 2:We're talking right now and I'm sorry to switch the gears, but we're talking about the short-term goal and the mid-term goal. Where does the long-term goal? Is it always constant? Just bring more people to Jesus.
Speaker 1:Remember, disciple them, to raise them up, to send them out to plant churches.
Speaker 2:So we use the long-term goal as like a sustainment, basically.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so you want this church to be sustainable over the long haul so that they can raise up more leaders to send more people out.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, and I think what Nick is getting at is what is your let's just say north star that you're always oriented toward right? So for us in the association here's wells branch the dna is we want to continue to multiply churches in the city because we believe it's the most effective way to see gospel saturation happen in a geography right versus your north star being. I just want to see how big I can get wells branch right. Okay, does that make sense.
Speaker 2:It does make sense because I always wondered that I'm like why aren't we trying to be the biggest, baddest, best church out there Bingo and I'm like we could do it. We got the superstars Right. I'm like no one's talking like that.
Speaker 1:So I was just like okay, biggest church you possibly can, but you also don't want to lose the mission of like uh, cause what happens when a church gets to a certain size is they stop. So this is what we've learned from just stats you lead more people to Christ in the first 10 years of your ministry than you do the rest of the entire church's life, and so that means that if you're always going through this process of sending out your people, you're raising up new leaders, and that way you don't have like 100-year-olds that have been on the elder board for 50 years being the guys and they don't care that the couch is dilapidated, they don't care that. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:They remember that couch Like you should remember your wife when she was young. Right, they're like that couch is awesome.
Speaker 1:Right and everyone's like no, not really it's got, like it's like broken, yeah, anyway, okay.
Speaker 3:And it's what you said, Nick, a couple minutes ago when we were talking about disciple making, and you said if I make one every year, I'll actually have a bigger impact than it's that same mindset and conviction at a church level so I grow one church and I can grow another church off that one church right.
Speaker 2:Another church again when the time comes right, and then that other, those other churches are growing. Other churches compound interest right.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's awesome. I didn't even thought like that. There's no comparison. Who wins in the long term?
Speaker 2:So instead of me trying to make a bigger church at that point, my goal is to create another church.
Speaker 1:Correct Probably the coolest experience for me being, when you think about achievements, when I went to North Carolina with all the pastors just sitting there, with James Foster and Holland Greg two, two pastors we sent out from our church. It's wild Like that. That to me was like what a cool right Like that. You know when when Paul talked about you're my crown, you're my whatever it's like.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, the the evidence of my grandfather. One of the last times I saw him it was like this you know, one of those family get-togethers, right, most of the cousins were there, the aunts and uncles were there, and he's like it's just funny, nick, that I made this.
Speaker 3:Right, all the people that are there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this whole everything here. We made this Right. All the people that are there. Yeah, this whole everything here. We made this, nick yeah.
Speaker 3:And it was just like, oh, that's kind of good. Same, yeah, same exact feeling.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we're going to move on to self-awareness. The last one Yep, there's four things spiritual vitality, personal mastery, marriage and family readiness, readiness and then clarity of calling. Let's just start with spiritual vitality. This seems like a no brainer.
Speaker 3:No, brainer, no brainer.
Speaker 3:But it's not, it's not, it's not and it goes under the category of don't assume anything, right? So you'd think like, oh, these guys have already been pastors, like the vast majority of them in some capacity. Certainly they have a vibrant majority of them in some capacity. Certainly they have a vibrant personal walk with Jesus where they are personally pursuing their Lord, growing closer to him, growing themselves more Christ-like. But you got to ask these questions. Tell me about your daily quiet time, tell me about your prayer life, tell me about the things that stir your affections and passions for jesus. And if that's like, they're like, ah well, I kind of what I tend to do.
Speaker 1:I just listen to a podcast on my way to work usually. Usually that's where I go in my head. I've already said this guy will never make it.
Speaker 1:No way and I just go, that's good, that's kind of what. But if, because that's, if that's the extent of your spiritual life your spiritual life is borrowed from somebody else, right, and you don't have your own personal relationship with Jesus, I'm not saying you can't, man do I? Love listening to great pastors preach, love it, I do it all the time, probably like everybody else. But if I don't have my own time with the Lord and if you can't ask me, what did you read today in your Bible, I'm just like, ah, you know, whatever, like that's going to be problematic for your life as a Christian, let alone as a pastor. Because that gets back to the reason why you probably have personal resilience is because you have a strength of character within the word of God.
Speaker 3:Bingo, if you are not getting fueled up in the Lord via your own spiritual disciplines that you've been able to build over time. You do not have a ready reservoir to draw from in order to serve, minister and impact others.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and another side of that is you won't have the backbone right hundred percent. Yeah, you will not.
Speaker 3:Yeah you, you be too wishy-washy yeah, yeah, you don't, you don't have enough spine close to this personal mastery.
Speaker 3:Talk about what personal mastery means yeah, so, um, jesus is the only perfect shepherd, right, right, he had no flaws, there weren't anything. So you could be like, yeah, but jesus, you stink at this, right, you can't not go happen, right? However, all of us are broken dudes. Yep, right, and the reality is we all have, in our sanctification process, areas where we still need to make progress, and that will be true until the day Jesus kills us and takes us home. Yeah, right, that's true. However, home yeah, right, that's true. However, those can't be glaring, right, right, it's okay. Like, every man at some level will battle lust, right, keeping their eyes in check and their heart in check their entire life, right, right. However, you can't be daily looking at stuff on the internet you shouldn't be looking at, or you know, know, being the flirty guy at when you're out and about, at the, at the heb or the grocery store or whatever right that has to be.
Speaker 1:You have to have personal mastery such that, yeah, like everyone, I battle sin, but that thing isn't eating me right, alive yeah, or just like the emotional mastery of your anger right, or greed or pride, or you know, you name all the list of spirit love, joy, peace, patient kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, when you can exhibit those in holistic way that when you are around, either lost people, save people, whatever kind of people, that you're able to convey a sense of being under the spirit's control, as opposed to just your flesh stealing away Right, right. Next one marriage, family readiness. Talk about this one and let's talk about Machine Gun Nick, two-time divorce champion. How do we help you understand that? That's part of a problem that we got to figure out and fix. So let's go, let's walk this through.
Speaker 3:So the vast majority of planters tend to be married Yep, okay, not a prerequisite one way or the other, it just it tends to be what it is. Yeah, so in a marriage relationship going into this unique job, vocation that you're choosing, where the stress is on not just the guy as the planter, but the couple are just crazy high, unbelievably stressful, just crazy high. In a way, like like you and I, we've done enough merit premarital counseling and like I tell this to guys, like in the first meeting, I'm like marriage is hard. You've heard that and they'll go, yes, marriage is hard. And you think and have thought when you heard marriage is hard, like I that, and they'll go, yes, marriage is hard. And you think and have thought, when you heard marriage is hard, like I tell you like hey, drop down and do 100 push-ups, like that's hard. Like no, no, no, marriage is hard. Like drop down and do a thousand push-ups, right, now that's what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, put a rucksack on. Yeah, 80 to 90 pounds, 100. Go walk up and down 50 miles. Yeah, up, yeah through in a mountain range range with a map, trying to find your way.
Speaker 1:That's very that's not Right.
Speaker 3:So if the marriage isn't strong, like whatever pressure that is going to come from planting, those cracks are going to get amplified and whatever is there that's out of alignment it's just gonna blow up. So there has to be a level in that marriage of strength, togetherness, unity that they're not like really behind closed doors at each other's throat, but like man.
Speaker 1:it's a solid marriage and usually that means that they talk about their problems.
Speaker 1:So whenever we interview like yeah, oh man, he's a complete butt when it comes to this thing and then and but they're able to talk about, maybe even laugh about it, and that's part of it. Like the personal mastery here is like knowing my own sinfulness and knowing that I'm weak, but then having an ability to talk about that with my spouse and her acknowledging my weakness and her loving me in spite of that, and then her acknowledge her own, and that's so rare, honestly, that that's like one of the greatest tells of I think I make it as a church planner is how their marriage is doing now. For single people it's super hard because now you have to figure out how in the world you're going to talk to the opposite sex, where they put you on a pedestal anyway and you're going to be like how do you not let that? How do you like kind of downplay that or be at a place where you're not looking for that affirmation from a woman, and that can be challenging as well 100%, 100%, okay yeah.
Speaker 1:Last one Clarity of calling. You would think Now you would think that this would be one that people were just like got it. If they're coming to a church planning assessment, it's like going to selection for special forces. You're like I've sort of thought about what this life might look like I just didn't want to have a cool badge on my uniform, but that is not true. Look, some people go. You know, I don't know it is. Are you guys hiring?
Speaker 3:right, right, whoa like a good idea why?
Speaker 1:not, I'll try this. Yeah, and so it's. It's got to be something that it is. Whether someone sends you or not, you're doing it and you're just looking for whoever's going to enable that to happen, not in a rebellious way, but because you're so clear that this is what God has called you to do. I always tell people, when it comes to pastoring, if you can do anything else, go do whatever that job is. And when it comes to church planning, if you can be in any other type of ministry, do that, unless God has specifically said you need to plan a church because it doesn't get any harder, right, right.
Speaker 3:At the end of the day, you will have to fall back on your calling in order to back what we said a minute ago about perseverance, in order to stay in the game, more than you are even aware. You will have to right right because there will be days where, in the quietness of your own heart and mind, as you lay down each night, where you will question what am I doing? Right? This is too hard. Nothing I'm doing is working. I stink. The only thing I get is criticism. How in the world I'm like, I'm not good at this, I'm not cut out for this and you will go. But I heard God say yeah.
Speaker 3:I heard God say, yeah, this is what he had for me, and you will lean on that as that, as that last toehold, that last handhold that keeps you on the rock face in order to keep making progress. And so, in an assessment, we talk about cause we've all walked this path. Talk to me about how you heard the father, heard the spirit's voice in your own heart, about this is what I should do, so that we can say, yeah, that sounds about right, yeah, eight years in COVID hit and it was Adrian's like we need to move to Tyler and she was loud Like let's get out of here.
Speaker 1:This is just, you know, everyone's masking everyone, the whole polarization of the culture and like we're on the bad team in Austin. I'm like no, I am called here and I had to like overcome because I was so clear that this was God's until God moved me, until God did something. I can't move and that becomes part of it Like you're going hell or high water. I think I had this conversation with Holland a bunch. He's like I always go hey, you always have a job up here, holland. He's like I really appreciate that, but God has called me down here.
Speaker 3:And that's how he gets talked off the ledge. But it's like so, yeah, right, and so to give, to give people listening and watching a little help, like, okay, how do you know? You have enough of that, nice. So the example I give again, because most guys are married yep, is there was some point in the relationship where, through your own kind of intuitive sense about this girl, and you like her and you love her and she loves you, and you prayed about it Yep, most likely you were a believer at that time that you got to the point where you think like I want to marry her and I think that's what God is leading me to do, and you had enough confidence to go. I'm buying the ring and asking her Okay, yep, that's what we're talking about. Yep, I'm buying the ring and asking her Okay, that's what we're talking about, that you have enough of that thing that you can say, okay, I've prayed, I've got counsel, I've heard from God and I think I need a plant. That's what you need.
Speaker 1:I always go back to the three circles of God's word, god's spirit, god's people, confirming that this is what God has for you. Man, I feel like we there you go. There's an assessment. That was an assessment. We just knocked out an hour.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, simple as that, talk it through.
Speaker 2:I'm guessing it doesn't take an hour to do this. It took Two days.
Speaker 3:Two days Plus pre-work Plus pre-work.
Speaker 1:There's a lot next year and when we're going to do it again. So if you are, if someone's wanting to church plant, what should they do?
Speaker 3:Yeah, uh, plant austincom, go there, there's a, you know a, contact us, just like on most websites, say, hey, I'm interested, I would love to consider have a start a conversation around possibly planting in Austin. Um, or you're just like, hey, man, I want to be in a, in a network, uh, and a group of guys that are going after something like this, yep, then, either way, just reach out to us, we'll follow up with you. And, uh, start the conversation. And, um, don't, don't say no ahead of time, right, right. So if anything that we've said in this time is like, oh, I'm not this for that or I'm not this for that, well, you're not gonna be all 12 of those things?
Speaker 2:Never, never, just start the journey Because you're really great at getting them to say the prayer, the salvation prayer, but I really don't see Fleck evangelize as much as everyone else. Is that kind of your lead pastor? You've got other priorities so you can't really take the time out, or is that so?
Speaker 1:yeah, I'm, I'm evangelizing probably not on doing door knocking as much as I am in my neighborhood and inviting people to my house. So that's kind of my strategy in my season with kids. It's like a spider. Yeah, I invite them to the web and then eat them.
Speaker 1:no uh no, yeah, that that's right. So you never get done with evangelism, no, and so it's. It's got to be something. It will look different at different stages of your life, okay, um, but yeah, that's that's a great question, because during when you guys go out door knocking, I'm at football practice, right, uh, and my hope is I'm building relationships with those parents, uh, and that eventually I'll be able to say, hey, why don't we get a get?
Speaker 2:so it's more of a personal evangelism than it is like we're gonna go out hey, monday we're going out and we are going out on mondays. If you want to come and door knocking, yep, but yeah, okay that's it, so it's got to be an always thing and always all right.
Speaker 1:Hey, listen, we man, we're gonna bring you back, eric, come on. I feel, yeah, okay, that's it. So it's got to be an always thing, an always All right. Hey, listen, man, we're going to bring you back, eric, come on. I feel like we never have enough time.
Speaker 1:We never have enough time. Hey, listen, we talk faith, culture, everything in between. If you would like to join the conversation, text us and we'll have Eric back, because we will Come on 737 or go to PastorFleckcom. We'd love to hear from you and from our house to yours. Have an awesome week of worship.