Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Exploring Accountability and Sacred Rituals
304: Ever wondered when a person becomes accountable for their sins? This episode delves into the fascinating concept of the age of accountability, using biblical stories such as Joshua and Caleb's spying mission and Uzzah's encounter with the ark. Pastor Plek and Catie Sas explore different scriptural interpretations and discuss the innocence of children in the light of Jesus' teachings about the kingdom of God. Engage with this thoughtful conversation on the complexities of theology, the comfort of God’s sovereignty, and the challenges it poses, especially regarding the death of a child.
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and welcome back to pastor plex podcast. I'm your host, pastor plec, and with me in studio is none other than mrs katie sass.
Speaker 2:Welcome back, katie hey, happy to be here so glad to have you.
Speaker 1:Uh, how's the summer?
Speaker 2:funny. This is what I always say. I don't know what else I'm supposed to say.
Speaker 1:Well, you're supposed to say you know something.
Speaker 3:That was great. No, it was great. You're just out of nowhere.
Speaker 2:Hey, how did I beat you? I know I had to perk up.
Speaker 1:I was about to fall asleep before you started.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I mean you?
Speaker 1:you just get back from SeaWorld.
Speaker 2:I went to SeaWorld yesterday, that's right.
Speaker 1:So how was SeaWorld?
Speaker 2:It was great, but how was?
Speaker 1:Summer Moon.
Speaker 2:Well, I wish this was Summer Moon. Yeah, because you love Summer.
Speaker 1:Moon, but that's not what you have. What?
Speaker 2:happened?
Speaker 1:Yes, it's Starbucks Did you have to settle.
Speaker 2:Today I had to settle my starbucks drink. Well, I want to hear about, like give me a review. Well, this is the white chocolate macadamia nut cream, cold brew. Okay, and it's delicious. Usually, like I don't know, starbucks coffee is pretty, it's fine, you know, it's whatever, but this is pretty good. I mean, who doesn't love a white chocolate macadamia nut?
Speaker 1:I mean yeah, yeah, do you have to get a coffee like that? Sounds great, delicious and calorie full, that's where I'm like all right, uh, cody how are you doing um? I'm so great yeah, are you great? Yeah, like uh. So I don't know if you noticed, like cody had you know he tore his achilles I know you don't have your, your cast on today.
Speaker 2:You don't have a boot.
Speaker 1:But then this past week, during vacation bible, he took the day off and went and got a root canal.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, that happened.
Speaker 2:What exactly is a root canal? They?
Speaker 3:just drill out your tooth.
Speaker 2:So you lost a tooth.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, they drill out the nerves.
Speaker 1:The nerves. You don't feel it right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they remove the nerves in your gums.
Speaker 3:Down your tooth, down the nerves in your gums, down your teeth Down the tooth in the gums. And then, but why? Because it's infected.
Speaker 2:How did your tooth get infected?
Speaker 3:It's a whole ordeal.
Speaker 1:How did that happen? I don't know. Did you not brush your teeth?
Speaker 3:Don't start with me. You know better than that. Here we go, Mrs Zern. That's a whole other ordeal that we are not getting.
Speaker 2:I mean it's okay, I have yellow stains on my teeth yeah, I don't.
Speaker 3:We're all we can you said yeah, I know like no, I said, I said like you don't look at them all the time I said yeah, no, I don't, I don't, yeah, oh yeah, no, I don't, because it's not because you don't brush your teeth, you could have water.
Speaker 2:I didn't brush my teeth when I was a kid hard water, that could do that okay, so, oh my gosh, this is a rabbit trail.
Speaker 1:That all right, so so, but then it wasn't that you just had a root canal. What happened?
Speaker 3:well, no, so I went in because my tooth was hurting really bad and on Monday night I was like this is the worst time of my life. I would rather have 18 surgeries Achilles surgeries than have this pain. So I I was up at like 5 am on. I just didn't sleep very much. So I had an dentist. I scheduled an appointment. I'm like I know what's wrong. I need to get in here, get this fixed. I go to this appointment and they do this whole x-rays and all these things and I'm putting myself through it, knowing because at the end we're gonna, you know, take care of the problem, and then they say, oh, we don't do those here, we can't do that here today, so we could schedule for another time. And blah, blah, blah. So they said we're gonna give you some pain medicine and some antibiotics to help with the infection awaited that work awaited hours for this.
Speaker 3:They gave me 800 milligram ibuprofen, oh, which is going to do what you can go to the store, and I was so exactly I was so mad so I said well, I got the antibiotic, it'll probably help. So tuesday night was worse than monday than monday. Oh, I was trying to pull a uh tom hanks and take bars I really thought hard about just ripping my tooth out because it hurt so bad.
Speaker 3:I didn't but anyways. So Wednesday I got. So I woke up Wednesday morning and my tooth had abscessed, like the infection had pushed to the side and made this like big old, like bubble on the side of my to make it look like you had dip in your mouth gums.
Speaker 3:Oh, my mouth was so swollen so that happened. So I was ticked off even more because if they would have just treated me on Tuesday, I would have never made it to Wednesday and the abscess never would have happened. So that made it just that much worse. And in the midst of all that, my AC's been going out and my hot water heater went out At your house. Yeah, we talked about this a little bit ago. My house is six years old, so it's been this Not happy.
Speaker 2:You've had a hard week. Yeah, it's been a rough week for old Cody Sparks.
Speaker 1:Oh man, it's been real fun.
Speaker 3:Anyways, yeah anyways, still find joy in chaos.
Speaker 2:Anyways, let's talk about Moses.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let let's talk about Moses. Let's talk about Moses. This past week we talked Exodus, chapter 30. We're all the way to Exodus 30. That means we are 75% done.
Speaker 2:It's great news. This is great. We only have 25% left. Can you believe that We've made it so?
Speaker 1:far.
Speaker 1:I know you're dying, but we talked about being ransomed, sanctified and anointed, and we looked at the ransom tax, which was a flat tax that went on.
Speaker 1:Every male 20 years old and over, we looked at the priest, had to wash their hands in the bronze laver and then the priest had to be anointed with a special oil and then, finally, they also had to have an incense compound that was specially made to go on the altar of incense. And probably the biggest wild thing for me was this pattern of like the atonement, something to do with the atonement on the inside of the tabernacle, the sanctification of the priest, something on the outside of the tabernacle, and then the priest being anointed or something to do with the priest, and then the priest being anointed or some sort of something to do with the priest, and then the altar of incense. And that's exactly how it went, with all the furniture inside the tabernacle, all the furniture on the outside, the bronze altar outside the tabernacle, and then it went back to the priests, how they're anointed, washed, set up for ministry, then it went to the altar of incense and then bam, now here we are again doing that same order.
Speaker 1:I went to the altar of incense and then bam, now here we are again doing that same order.
Speaker 2:What's the? Are you going to talk about the blood on the ears and the toes?
Speaker 1:No, not this time, that was last week, but we can talk about it. That was God's on the ear was last week. We talked about God's. Every priest had to be had blood on their ear to represent how they were listening to God's word on their hand. They were doing God's work on the thumb and then on their right toe to represent how they were walking in God's way.
Speaker 2:And so that was sort of a fun thing, so gross. I think that would be the one thing that I'd have the biggest problem with Like okay.
Speaker 1:Like that's your thing.
Speaker 2:You're like you're okay with killing all the animals, just let's not put their blood on me with killing all the animals, just let's not put their blood on me. I don't have to be a priest, like you know. If I have to put blood, if I have to put like animal blood on me, then it's like eh. Yeah, I'm out, it's fine. I can like find another job.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, the problem was is that you didn't really get to choose your job. It was like a calling, like if, and you're a man 20 years old or over. You're kind of a priest.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now you might have to be married to that guy and he might come home with blood on his toe or his thumb. That might be a little weird on his ear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I'm also the same girl that wiped the oil off my forehead that someone anointed me with. I didn't know it was a big deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't want that. I actually don't think it's a big deal. It's not a big deal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think it's a big deal, but they gave me a hard time and I'm like who gave you a hard time?
Speaker 1:I would love to hear that. James Foster, oh good.
Speaker 2:I was at some like church planning conference.
Speaker 1:Oh, fun yeah.
Speaker 2:And they like I think it's because I don't remember why they wanted to yeah the apostolic gifting of?
Speaker 1:I have no idea.
Speaker 2:Something. But they like put this oil on my forehead and I'm like what the heck? I kind of work hard to. Not be oily Keep my forehead, not oily, am I great at it? No, but do I try to?
Speaker 1:not have an oily.
Speaker 2:You want to reduce shine as much as possible and then you're freaking, putting oil on my forehead Like I didn't ask you to put oil on my forehead. Don't do that.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, this oil that went on the whole body really, and probably forehead as well, of the priest, which is really kind of wild. Like you would know, somebody was a priest not because they were wearing a priest uniform, although they did have a specific uniform, but anybody could wear a white linen.
Speaker 2:They would smell, they would smell really good. So it'd be like a cologne.
Speaker 1:You know, when somebody walks by and they're wearing way too much, but you don't mind the smell because it's really good, is?
Speaker 2:it kind of like when somebody's super into essential oils. Yes, I know that you either sell.
Speaker 1:Is it kind of like when somebody's super into?
Speaker 2:essential oils? Yes, and you know exactly yes, like I know that you either sell essential oils or you are very passionate.
Speaker 1:That's exactly what it is.
Speaker 2:Because they all smell the same.
Speaker 1:They do. That's exactly right.
Speaker 2:It's a nice smell. It is a nice smell, I enjoy this smell. So that's exactly.
Speaker 1:It's not, I'm not, and that's kind of like was there. If you had that particular smell, that was like your authority to do god's work, which is sort of wild to think about, like some people wear a badge. You know I talked about this as some people like, uh, the police officers wear a badge that sort of gives them their authority because they have, like you know, the police city of austin or round rock behind him. When you had the smell, that was like your, that was like your badge yeah, kind of wow, all right.
Speaker 1:So, um, we had some questions come up about this and I brought up a subject that I didn't really go into because it's kind of like one of those side comments that you don't really think that much of. I thought this was fascinating. It was on the age of accountability and I've always been like, is it not?
Speaker 2:three. Why have I been told that the age of accountability is three?
Speaker 1:Probably because this one verse that actually the person brings up. So, regarding the age of accountability, what does Isaiah 7, 14 through 16 mean? So he's talking about age of accountability, isaiah 7, 14 through 16,. Therefore, the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive and bear a son, and he shall call his name Emmanuel. He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. So that was at a young age, when he moved from mother's milk to curds, which sounds like a three-year-old.
Speaker 2:Well, it's well before three.
Speaker 3:Well, technically you can nurse until five. That's true, If you wanted to.
Speaker 1:Well, I've seen videos where there's kids who are like it tastes like mango.
Speaker 3:And you're like bingo. See, you could breastfeed for a while if you really wanted to, right, uh, which is you know?
Speaker 1:so I think I think isaiah leaves it intentionally vague here, um, and it'd be helpful if he didn't. So I and I don't know if this is because this is this special, specific person like knows the good from bad, so that that would seem like that. But we all know everyone's born into sin. Like there isn't one person that's like, oh, that person's innocent. So I don't think, and I don't know if that this person asked the question means do you think they're innocent? No, I don't, I just don't. And this is where I don't have a position on this fully. I would I lean towards. Everyone is accountable for their own sin, but there is an argument for it. It would be. I like this argument because you like 20?
Speaker 1:20. I like 20. If I were to pick an age, because I was going to go. I was going to take it.
Speaker 2:So what you mean is, like I'm trying to understand what like what you mean by age of accountability.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's. When are you held accountable?
Speaker 2:for your sin. So, like you have up until you're 20 to either believe in Jesus or not, but like essentially the.
Speaker 1:The idea that I've heard that's the most compelling for an age of accountability was 20 years old, and here's why you couldn't be in the military until you're 20 years old. Okay, that was like standard. That's like when you become a man, you're now 20 years old, and here's why you couldn't be in the military until you're 20 years old. Okay, that was like standard. That's like when you become a man, you're now 20 years old. You had to pay the shekel tax to ransom you from your sin when you're 20 years old and you weren't held accountable for not believing the promise of the promised land.
Speaker 1:Remember when Joshua and Caleb and the 10 other spies came back from spying out the land and Caleb goes, we can take it, god is with us. And the other 10 are like, no, yeah, it's awesome, but we're all going to die. We are grasshoppers. In our own eyes and in theirs, this is bonkers, don't do it. And then everybody goes yeah, it's over, we're not going to go. And so, god, everybody that was 19 and 364 days and younger got to go to the promised land, and everybody that was 20 years old and over died in the wilderness. And so if there is one case for the age of accountability.
Speaker 1:I would say that makes the most sense because you can put the Bible behind it, but there are so many verses that don't point to that. Again, at what point does God go? Nah, don't worry about it, because your sin is still sin. And that's where Nadab and Abihu died, because the holiest of God came out and killed them. They were Aaron's sons Now, granted, they're're over 20, and they were doing priestly work and they did not take the holiest of gods serious enough and they died. Uzzah the ark, the ox stumbled and he steadied the ark and he killed him. I don't know.
Speaker 2:That story. I don't really understand If he was trying to help out God right.
Speaker 1:He was just trying to make sure I don't really understand Like if he was trying to like help out God right, Like he was just trying to like make sure it didn't freaking fall. Right, but God specifically laid out the rules that only Levites were to carry the ark and the Levites had to use it on poles.
Speaker 1:So there's all these different specific holiness rules that had to be enforced, and so, like that's what I'm saying, force, and so it. Like that's what I'm saying, like I, is it an age thing that that, to me, is confused, which is why the the questioner brought up well, here's one for it being like three years old, the, at whatever age, he shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.
Speaker 1:now we don't know a specific age there, but that makes sense, like that would seem like it's really young, um, but then you've got uh lu, I think it's 18. Now they're bringing even infants to him that he might touch them, and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying let the children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it, meaning you have to have the innocence of a child. And I think what the question is like. Well, what about that verse? It seems like infants are in because they have. You know, the angels in heavens hear their. They're with them always.
Speaker 1:And so it's like it's so confusing. And to really take a strong position on the age of accountability, I think is foolish and that's why it's really hard like, especially when a child dies.
Speaker 2:I just think it doesn't matter. Like I think this is real stupid.
Speaker 1:Well, it does matter. Let's say, if a child dies, and then you're like well, but then you don't want to get false comfort. At the same time, I think I would say God is good. Yeah, I think the comfort would be in.
Speaker 2:I don't know what's best. I'm not the creator of the universe. God is in control. Like if Ava died. Obviously, yes, it would be devastating, but I can't spend my life wondering if she's in heaven.
Speaker 3:All I can do is trust that God is sovereign it's the innocence of a child and he knows their art. Yeah, you know, like he created them he.
Speaker 2:He ordained that she like whoever passes away.
Speaker 1:He ordained that they would from the beginning of time, like foundations of the earth, right, so he knows who's going to heaven, who's not. It that's a great point, and I think that's that's the struggle always is like, and again, I think that's a secondary issue of like when you know when is someone yeah and so you got to really be careful not to go down the rabbit trail too far.
Speaker 1:It's just I I've never heard I'd always heard age of accountability. I just thought people were making it up and I always heard, I hear, hear three. Three seems like a made-up number, because I think maybe that would have to come from. Isaiah 7.
Speaker 2:Because that makes sense, because I've always heard it as like a discipline sort of idea.
Speaker 1:Oh interesting, oh, at three. Like that's when, like that's when you should spank him, or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that's when we started spanking him.
Speaker 1:I still feel like they're not man my my son, austin, knew the difference from right and wrong at like age, nine months he'd be.
Speaker 3:I'd be like hey, don't touch that.
Speaker 1:He'd be like and I'd be like right, um, so yeah, I heard of age 12. That's when you bar mitzvah a boy and bat mitzvah, a girl.
Speaker 2:That's like now you are considered a man or wait, it's a bat mitzvah for a girl and a bar mitzvah for a boy Anyways.
Speaker 1:And so, bar mitzvah, at 12, that's when you become a man and you're accountable. But I think I don't know it makes more sense that at 12, now you're in the I don't know adolescent period of some sort, you're in the probationary period of manhood. I could see it making sense that your sins still count against you but they sort of it doesn't I don't know go into accounting until you hit 20. I don't know, that seems true. It's just such a random thing that if you're kind of banky on that in some way, like I'm gonna live my life like hell and then just die at 19 years and three quarters, I just don't know of anybody doing that. But it is something that Christians debate, which is the age of accountability. I don't see a lot of evidence, but if there was evidence I would say 20 years old. That makes the most sense to me.
Speaker 1:All right, the next question, which I thought was also interesting. Moses had to administer a lot of things for the priests, so whenever he washed Aaron head to toe, he washed all the priests, aaron's four sons, head to toe. Did he also have to go through the rituals to be considered holy? Could he have been in and around the temple, or did he have to follow all the laws and things himself? Does that make sense as a question for you, like because Moses wasn't part of the priesthood?
Speaker 2:But was he like the goat?
Speaker 1:The greatest of all time, yeah. Like in that time I love the fact that you said the goat makes me happy Way to go. Katie, was he the goat? Yeah, I mean he was but he wasn't a priest.
Speaker 2:Was everybody like Moses?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they were like that. Later they weren't actually thrilled with Moses, I mean in the beginning.
Speaker 2:Obviously, in the beginning, obviously, obviously in the beginning. You know all the israelites. Whenever he was like bringing them out of slavery, they thought it was ridiculous. But once things got established, when he like walked the yard, was he like, the cool, like he was very cool, except for the parts that people were always grumbling against him. There wasn't a point where like because he was, because he was like in, it's kind of like the President of the United States.
Speaker 1:Like the President of the United States gets a lot of props, a lot of fanfare, a lot of pomp and circumstance. So I think he got a little bit of that. However, what he didn't get was he had his critics. Like at every press conference people are like oh, what about this, moses? You know that was hard, I think, for Moses.
Speaker 2:But nobody does that to people that aren't in charge of anything.
Speaker 1:Right, if you're not in charge of anything. No one's talking bad about you, right, that's just. You know it's only leadership that gets hammered. So my view is that Moses went to meet with God, but he was not allowed in the tabernacle. That was a priest thing, and once you're, only the high priest was allowed in there, and so um, what was moses's title?
Speaker 2:did he have a title?
Speaker 1:you know he didn't have a title, he was just moses, man of god he also got the title as the most humblest man ever, but he gave himself that title, so that's sort of I don't know that he was the most humblest.
Speaker 2:Well, you know it.
Speaker 1:You know the Bible says he was.
Speaker 2:I mean he hit the rock. He did hit the rock. He wasn't supposed to.
Speaker 1:He wasn't supposed to do that. But if any of us say we're out without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Maybe his sins were. He was so humble, he put his sins on display.
Speaker 2:Maybe, maybe, I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's maybe, maybe, I don't know. It's yeah, so no, I don't think he. He was able to just go into the presence of god in the tabernacle. Only the high priest, once a year, was allowed to go in there and he, um the cloud, would come down and probably surround him when he went to go meet with god.
Speaker 3:I was gonna say like I mean, he actually met with god, he met with god it's so interesting that he couldn't go into the.
Speaker 1:Well, you got to remember too. Remember the 70 elders in Exodus 24. All they eat and drink and beheld God. And so they all saw him, what does? That mean, do they see his feet? Because they saw that his feet was standing on something that looked like.
Speaker 3:Was he in a cloud that shaped into a cloud?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we did have a. We have a lot of being in Wells Branch is awesome. Sometimes homeless people will come in and talk to us about visions of Jesus that they've seen, and then they give us pictures of it. So we've experienced that yeah I, I, uh, it is super challenging to kind of wrap your head around. Moses would wear a veil over his face. Um, he did it first because he was face was so radiant from meeting with god, and then later actually see god, he saw he was in a cloud of some sort, it said.
Speaker 1:the Bible says he met with God face to face, as one talks to a friend.
Speaker 3:What does that mean? Exactly?
Speaker 1:I mean?
Speaker 3:does that mean, he saw God's face?
Speaker 1:No, it couldn't be because, remember, he didn't see his face. We know that because, remember, when he says, show me your glory, and then God passes by and he's only able to see the backside of God. So I don't, I think he was in a cloud of some sort and it was really radiant, powerful, and so he would walk around to your point with a veil over his face and then what 2 Corinthians says, that he would continue to wear the veil even though the glory was fading, so that Israel would in a sense lose respect for him. Israel would in a sense lose respect for him, but that same glory is still fading, and when you follow the law of Moses, you don't have the same power. Today, now that we have the gospel, that we have freedom in Christ, the Holy Spirit, power, and that's something we need to kind of wrap our head around. Anyway, yeah, all right, tell me about your loss of interest in that. That does not hold your attention right there.
Speaker 2:Oh, you want to hear about my loss of interest yeah, hit me oh, I just didn't. I just don't really care about the, not that things got, but most I don't think it's unimportant, like obviously it's in the bible, but I'm just, I don't know that. I have like intricate, you know, sophisticated questions about it. Yeah, I think I would just listen, like obviously it's in the Bible, but I'm just, I don't know that. I have like intricate, you know, sophisticated questions about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I would just listen to what you have to say. I think the main point is like what are you supposed to do as a priest? You have to understand. You're ransomed by God, saved.
Speaker 2:Yes, we're all priests, and then you have to be so.
Speaker 1:I think that point I think is important, like I was talking about your ransom, you're sanctified and you're anointed. Does that part resonate with you?
Speaker 2:Like, hey, I'm a priest of God and I need to be going out there. Yeah, I have the same power that rose Jesus from the dead.
Speaker 3:Boom.
Speaker 2:And I am a daughter of the king and I'm going to go out and tell everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you totally live that out, yeah.
Speaker 2:As everybody should.
Speaker 1:I'm not special Well, but I do think the anointing on your life to go and share, I feel like you. I don't want to say you have more success than most. I'm not going to put it like you're better than everybody.
Speaker 2:No I definitely don't.
Speaker 1:But I think when you operate in the anointing meaning, the power or the purpose that God's put in your life, you see fruit. Is that a fair way to put that? And when I think back to your life in particular, I think about, I just think, justin and Amber. For some reason We've seen fruit from that because of your persistence and prayer and your operating in power over time. Would you agree with that? Yeah, and you're operating in power over time. Would you agree with that? And then even with Agatha and her family.
Speaker 1:that's wild to watch the persistence of prayer over time that you operate in that anointing, cody, when you think about priesthood, the kingdom of priests, have you seen someone operating in their anointing? Yeah, and just like the, the gifting of, like, oh, I'm a, I'm a child of god and I've got this power. Like, over time, you, just like man, that person consistently reaps the benefit of operating in the anointing yes, uh, my grandpa and my dad yeah, like talk to me about one, my grandma.
Speaker 3:I don't remember it as much as other family members do with my grandpa yeah uh, so my papa, he, he was a preacher as well, but they would say like he would just be doing whatever normal day, talking whatever. And second he popped on like on and upon the pulpit like the anointing would hit him so hard yeah that he was just on fire and just go going with it. Yeah, and it's the same with my dad. He'll, he'll step up on there and I mean it just comes on you and you're yeah, spit fire well, and the cool part is I.
Speaker 1:I think that anointing is always on you right, maybe the operation always on you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's yeah, but you don't see, it's always. You don't see it, you don't see it really until you're.
Speaker 1:I think that might be it, because, um so, the you are the aroma of christ. You guys ever heard that, that phraseology?
Speaker 1:yeah um like of life to the those who are perishing, like so um. I think this is why I love the verse of of the special anointing oil that smelled like cinnamon and like the best popcorn, and I think it's that the aroma of Christ. It's just a metaphor of, like the influence and impact of Christians who follow and share Jesus, and so when you're doing that, it's like you carry. It's so weird to say like I've had conversations with people and I think you probably have too where I'm not necessarily like what's preventing you from trusting Jesus right now, but I'm ministering to them through you know, whatever, I'm just pastoring.
Speaker 2:You're meeting them where they are Right.
Speaker 1:And they go and they'll walk away and they've used words like that was refreshing and you're like it's not like you're like I'm gonna be a glass of cool water.
Speaker 2:Does that make? Does that make sense? Yeah, well, and it reminds me of before I became a christian, and I remember I went and visited britney burnett. Well, yeah eason eason yeah you know, back in the day and I went and visited her at dbu and I wasn't a christian yet yeah but I just loved her so much and so I went to visit her and I was around her and all of her friends and there was just something so like what is intoxicating about them.
Speaker 2:And it's not like they were being some they weren't doing anything special. They were just being themselves, but like it was so refreshing to be around them and I'm like, wow, I really like these people, but I don't know what it is about them that I just want to be around them all the time, and it's because it was Jesus.
Speaker 1:I think the verse here is second Corinthians two, 15, for we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.
Speaker 2:So and a week later I got saved. That's wild yeah.
Speaker 1:So there've been several times um, non-christians have come and I've gotten to talk to them afterwards and uh, do you remember Misha, the camp gladiator? Girl she would say it's so weird. I just feel like she would describe the feeling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because the Holy Spirit is so powerful and intoxicating to people. But if you're not a believer, you don't know what that means.
Speaker 1:And another girl came in, she started crying and then she had run out and I'm like I don't know, I don't know why, I just couldn't be in there.
Speaker 3:It and I'm like I don't know, I don't know why I just couldn't be in there. It was just too much and it was. And, like you know, when I don't know if you get, it's like an overwhelming peace, an overwhelming, overwhelming head Like you just felt loved, like it's yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I think that, and I think for Christians, I don't want to say you're spoiled by it, but you don't notice it as much. Right, that's accurate. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:It's always there it's just. Sometimes it's more potent, right? Yeah, yeah, and I don't know how.
Speaker 1:So I love watching. Whenever you see a new person, like watch their reaction because they'll probably like look around and they'll go. What is they're like? Looking for something and they can't quite figure it out. I love watching new people. I love watching people who don't know Jesus. It's their first time here and they'll walk out of here and they'll go. That was very, and the words they use are inspiring or that was very like, and I'm like they're like powerful, like well, do you anything in particular? You remember, like they can't remember a and I think they're just so intoxicated might be the right. I like the way you use that it's.
Speaker 2:It's like so moving an intoxicating aroma like you just you're like I want to be around this and so that's why.
Speaker 1:But I just want to that I think is so special that those of us who are in Christ like it's normal, uh, it's, like you know, nowadays when you go into uh, um, like Starbucks, it has a certain smell, or a summer moon, a certain smell that you sort of expect, and it's kind of comforting, but if you've never been there, you're like, oh wow that was nice.
Speaker 3:You know that sort of thing, I think what happens when people come to church.
Speaker 1:They now, especially when worship's going and people hear, they're like, wow, this is powerful.
Speaker 2:It's like when I first became a Christian. I would like sob during worship all the time, Like I was just like snotty nose, tears running down my eyes. I still remember when you used to lead worship at church.
Speaker 3:This was 12 years ago like ages ago.
Speaker 2:And I remember y'all were singing.
Speaker 1:Healer, oh Healer.
Speaker 2:Healer by Kerry Jobe.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I had just I mean, I had like just become a Christian, like maybe a few, not even a few months prior, and that song came on and I'm like sobbing in the front row and I remember looking up and I like saw you, you like looked at, we like made eye contact and I was like, well, I think I'm so weird no, no, no, no, everybody's been there before oh, snotty tears, I think from you're right. When I first started, but I haven't cried like that during worship in a while.
Speaker 3:Well, we could all get into a whole deal on that.
Speaker 1:In 1999, I was just snotty tears every week and it was like 90s cheesy Christian music. It didn't even matter and it was like why, how come nobody told me about this? It's so amazing, um, and then it was powerful and again, I don't think it's, I don't think anything's. I still think when I, if you're, if you're to watch, there's still people having snotty tears moments.
Speaker 3:they're just newer yeah, but I still think that then this is where it's interesting, because we were talking with Austin a while ago about worship.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And people that really dive into that I know it sounds so cliche. You dive into worship and you really seek that and you really focus on the presence of God. It's there. And then the more that you surrender and the more that you're saying here I am, you surrender, and the more that you're saying here I am like I'll see people sit there just arms crossed and you're like you must hate this so bad. You're making me feel awkward up here, are you okay? But the people who have really broken through things in their lives and busted like broke the chains of the curses, things that they like joel.
Speaker 1:I think about joel like a joel or a jacob or a jeff the.
Speaker 3:when these guys come in, uh, or herbert, yeah, when these guys are here and they're worshiping, for me, that open, I feel like just heavens, just start opening up, because those guys are truly worshiping. They are like I don't care what anyone thinks about me right now I will throw my hands up, I will yell, I will walk around, I whatever it is that they're doing to worship. They're the ones that. I'm like man. Those guys have busted through so many things and I'm like the people who are struggling and having so much guilt, shame, whatever it is. They're struggling within their life.
Speaker 3:If they were to just let to just let go of that and break those chains, then surrender it all. Their worship is different and their feeling and the presence of God will hit you just differently, and I think that's why I love when lost people come to church.
Speaker 1:I feel like when they're there, I see the aroma of christ hit them and I see them just confused and like not the emotions, all just sort of trigger all over the place and all these different like memories are flashing back for them and it's it's just incredible to watch that and experience that and it's like, um, okay, this is gonna be a terrible movie reference, but do you know the movie Ratatouille?
Speaker 1:yeah, I've never seen it, though, okay well there's this one scene where the rat makes a special, like it's like the simplest possible meal, and he gives it to this food critic and the food critic. He takes a bite and all of a sudden takes him back to when he's like five years old and his mommy held him and he was just, and he just was like, and he's like mesmerized for a second and he's moved.
Speaker 1:And I think that's what happens when people who are far from God. They go back to it, like Jesus connects them to a moment in their life where, all of a sudden, everything was right and peaceful and if they've never had that, it's even more crazy because their whole life has been chaotic and all of a sudden, a piece that makes no sense, it just womb and it hits them. Yeah, so I I think that's a part of just worship that I just so enjoy is experiencing along people who are getting it for the first time.
Speaker 3:Um, and I don't. That moves me deeply it's even when, like people who, uh, come to christ and then that kind of ran away, yeah, and they know that, and then they come back in it and then that hits them too and they're like that, like you were saying, that's what they were missing and missed out on, and it hits them and it all aligns for that, whatever moment through there and you get that feeling of peace and you don't understand. You don't understand it, but you know something. Yeah, I think that's so good.
Speaker 1:So I think there's two people that experienced that, and I know we've been talking about the priests. They're ransomed, they're sanctified and they're anointed. So you experience the anointing off of somebody, but then to operate in your anointing, you can sort of sense it and feel it from the inside you. Probably when you're talking to somebody you're like you get the tingles. You're just talking and all of a sudden you sense that the Lord is moving. It's like what is happening right now.
Speaker 1:I know that God is moving right now and I think we don't experience that probably as much as we could, because we have constant sin that always gets on us and it's not like God's prevented from being used, because the word of God does not return void. But what can happen is we're not in the confession and repentance and we're not going through that, we're not being clean before God. I think we miss out on maybe operating in the anointing that God has for us because we can't sense it, because we've been I don't want to say contaminated. That makes it like as if we're not saved. We're definitely saved but we're not experiencing the full fellowship of God because we're not in the regular habit of confession, repentance. Would you agree with that? Like?
Speaker 2:is that, if you sense that in your own life? Katie, okay, I might've zoned out a little bit, but it's not because what you were saying was boring, it's just because I was thinking about. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So when you confess and repent, that gets you, draws you closer to God. Yes, if you go for a season of life a week, two weeks where you don't have connection with God. Then you don't operate in the anointing because you kind of feel it feels clunky.
Speaker 2:You feel distant and you feel awkward about the relationship.
Speaker 1:Right and it's not even that you're in some deep, dark sin. It's just you haven't daily brought yourself before the Lord.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yourself before the Lord, yeah, yeah, it's like when you have it connected with your spouse in a week and you're kind of like do? We even have a relationship anymore, and then you kind of are picking fights and then you're arguing and you're dating with each other.
Speaker 3:We're doing our lives. Yeah, we're doing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, yeah, and I think that's what. That's what I think such a radio thing. Every time the priest went into the tent of meeting or every time they went to the altar to burn incense, they were constantly washing their hands because they were doing God's work, and then, anyway, I think we can kind of wrap it up there. I really appreciate you guys watching Any other thoughts before we move on.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, hey, thanks for watching. If you got any questions about faith, culture, everything in between, we'd love to hear from you. Text us at 737-231-0605. Hey, from our house to yours have an awesome week of worship.