Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Transforming Anxiety with Hayley Hengst
309: Can understanding your core beliefs and automatic thoughts transform your anxiety into a manageable challenge? Discover the powerful strategies discussed on Pastor Plek's podcast with our insightful guest, Hayley Hengst, a counselor in training. Hayley opens up about her personal journey with anxiety, sharing practical steps she has taken to transition her worries and find peace through faith and prayer. Together, she and Pastor Plek explore how anxiety can act as a self-fulfilling prophecy, impacting relationships and overall well-being, and how confronting fears directly can lead to significant progress.
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And welcome back to Pastor Plek's podcast. I'm your host, pastor Plek, and I'm so glad all of you are joining us. This is recording live here in Austin, texas, and joining me today is none other than Haley Hanks, our counselor. That we get the privilege of using her for her internship hours Is that the best way to put that? Yep Sounds about right and she has been crushing and killing it in the most positive way possible with helping people at our church really take the next step in the relationship with God and also helping them take emotional steps to really bring wholeness. Would that be a good way to put that?
Speaker 2:I think that's a great way to put that.
Speaker 1:So talk to me about really one of the things. Let's just as a counselor like you're as a counselor intern.
Speaker 2:I know it's very important to Counselor in training In training Counselor intern.
Speaker 1:And so tell me about really what you feel like is one of the primary things in general. I don't want to get any specifics here, but in general people are facing right now.
Speaker 2:A lot of anxiety, anxiety. That might be the number one thing. Really A lot of anxiety.
Speaker 1:That might be the number one thing Really Now. Is it anxiety about like finances, relationships or just kind of just the general.
Speaker 2:I mean both of what you just said and I think just a lot of just kind of like widespread, just generalized chronic anxiety, chronic anxiety, chronic anxiety I think that was probably just the number one thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So Jesus says do not be anxious, or actually Paul wrote that Don't be anxious about anything, but in everything rejoice. So it's just sort of like wow, bring all your struggles and everything to God and he's going to give you a peace that surpasses all understanding.
Speaker 2:I have that tattooed on my arm. Actually Be anxious for nothing, what?
Speaker 1:Okay. So in your own journey, how have you been able to combat anxiousness and what's really the piece, or how are you able to get people from anxiety Like they know the answer is God. Like you're not. For the most part, you're not dealing with people that have, like no concept of God. You're dealing with people who are Christian, who love Jesus, but the anxiety still traps them. So how did you personally deal with anxiety? And then what's the sort of strategy you kind of help other people take?
Speaker 2:well for me personally. I definitely anxiety was kind of a big thing for me for a lot of years. Not like I ever was officially diagnosed with anxiety and I've never had to take medication for anxiety or anything like that, but just I always um. As a kid I remember always feeling very anxious about something bad happening to my mom or dad. That was like a huge thing for me. I was always so worried that they were going to get in a car accident or that they were Like how old were you?
Speaker 1:in that.
Speaker 2:I mean well, I don't know, Not by the time I was a teenager, but I feel like most of my childhood, elementary age years. Yeah, maybe even middle school a little bit too, and then, like, once I got married, I feel like I took all that exact same anxiety and it kind of transferred onto my husband.
Speaker 2:I was always very anxious about something bad happening to him, or you know, him like leaving, like different things like that and and actually it would drive him crazy, which I get. And then it kind of transferred onto my kids, like it's almost like I kept replacing whoever was, like I replaced my parents with my spouse.
Speaker 2:As far as who my anxiety was going to focus upon and then onto my kids, but then, like I wish I had some really kind of pivotal story to tell or something that was hugely helpful. But and not that I don't ever I do still sometimes struggle with anxiety. I think everyone does sometimes. So I don't want to act like I'm just in perfect peace at all times now, but I would not say it's like a huge struggle anymore and I don't know if it's just. I mean, I'm sure to some extent it's just. You know, like I've taken it to God a million times over the years and so I'm sure there is growth and God healing me in that area.
Speaker 2:Honestly, some of the things that I had felt worried about happened and I think there is something to be said for realizing that sometimes things are worse when you visualize and you think about what if, what if, what if, and then sometimes, when the what if happens, you're like okay, well, that does in fact suck, but I'm actually okay and I can, I can. That's not the ideal scenario, what just happened, but it didn't kill me either and I'm okay.
Speaker 1:Do you ever see in that like worry, almost self-fulfilling prophecies, like where people worry about something happened that they almost force it to happen? Is that I?
Speaker 2:cannot decide how I feel about that. Honestly, I know some people think that, uh, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I think I would more say I don't think that's a thing, okay, okay, but I don't know, because I would say that most people worry about stuff that never comes to fruition, for sure um, but I guess it is possible that you could worry something so much that you make it happen like yeah, which is like a wild sort of thought, like I'm so worried that someone's going to leave me, and then I put on them you're going to leave me, you're going to leave me, and eventually they're like I'm out like I can't handle that well.
Speaker 2:That you're, you're right. So, yes, I think there are certain situations where that is the case, whereby you're constant worrying, and then maybe the ways that changes you by being like a constantly anxious person and what that does to you. Maybe that then affects yeah other things that. And then it's like a cycle, that kind of like a however, you just worded it self yes, self-fulfilling prophecy.
Speaker 1:It's like yeah like, uh, I'm never gonna have any friends, I'm always gonna be lonely be lonely I'm always going to be single and so therefore, you almost um, and if I'm just going to the single realm, it's like I then take people out of my life that would have the potential to bring a spouse or whatever, because I'm like I know it's not going to work out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean kind of different from that but kind of similar. So a little counselor talk for a second yeah, here we go In the world of counsel. Well you know, different counselors have different what we call theoretical orientations or different approaches to counseling, and so some counselors, which I am one, lean into like cognitive behavioral therapy.
Speaker 1:You have to explain that for all of us. I will.
Speaker 2:But then there's, you know, a million other theories and a million other approaches that people have, but with cognitive behavioral therapy you're really looking for. Like everyone, deep inside of you you have core beliefs that are usually formed by the time you're like seven or eight years old.
Speaker 2:And they're formed from. You know all kinds of the way your parents raised you, experiences that happened to you when you're little, just all kinds of things, but they're usually pretty like situated in you by the time you're like seven or eight. And there are these core beliefs about yourself, about just how the world works, about other people, and most people are not even aware or can't articulate what these core beliefs are, and there could be positive ones too, but the negative ones that are kind of common for a lot of people are I'm worthless, I'm I'm worthless, I'm unlovable, um, I, uh, I'm helpless, I'm powerless. Like that's a huge one that people don't realize that deep down they have this belief that they're powerless. Um, I mean, there's a ton, it could be anything, but those are some common ones that seem to come up a lot in counseling. And once you have that core belief which, by the way, these core beliefs influence your thoughts a ton.
Speaker 2:So the core beliefs are the most like deeply deep down buried thing, and then those influence your thoughts and their thoughts go on to influence your emotions and then your actions. So a huge part of changing someone's emotions and actions is figuring out well, what are you thinking? And then, okay, why are you thinking that? What are you believing about yourself, or what are you believing about the world? And so, with the self-fulfilling prophecy thing, sometimes people have, let's just say, the core belief is I'm unlovable. Well then, because they so deeply believe this at such a deep down core level, they believe this to be true I'm unlovable. So then, as things happen to them in life good or bad, it's all filtered through I'm unlovable. And so when things happen that actually might make it seem as though they are lovable, they tend to disregard that.
Speaker 1:Right, that doesn't fit with they reinforce the bias.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like they're not even paying attention to all the things that might be saying you are lovable, this person loves you or this indicates that you're lovable. They just scrap those, but instead they're focusing on all the evidences that, yep, just like I thought I'm not lovable, this person broke up with me. That just enforces what I already believe to be true.
Speaker 1:So it's a little bit different than self-fulfilling prophecy, but um, no, I think it kind of goes in the same world All right.
Speaker 1:So I'm just thinking of my own kids now, when you can counsel me on how I've parented, uh, but like uh, you know, my, my oldest, he kind of he he'll run with a like very healthy perspective, um, high resiliency to disappointment. Obviously there were were times of crushing anxiety, of like I'm not going to be able to do this thing, but now he's 11. Through prayer, through like I don't know if I can play this game, I don't know if I can lose. It's going to be so bad. We've been able to walk through that and I'm watching. My second son doesn't have quite the same resiliency.
Speaker 1:And when I think about core, beliefs I think that's where in my parenting strategy at the time I was really getting into discipline of my first son.
Speaker 1:I should have probably been thinking of like the more compassion side of really nurturing my second son, but he kind of got the discipline aspect because, that's what the first kid was getting, and he didn't get a lot of the you're loved, you're loved, you're loved, you're the best, you're the greatest, you're the best. And so I'm having to kind of go back now and just reinforce the compassion nurturing aspect of things, because I think we hammered on the discipline side, because we were like, oh no, this kid is just too spoiled, the one's too spoiled.
Speaker 2:We got to make sure we get right, you kind of swing back and forth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know if you've experienced any of that with your own kids and you're just like, ah, I'm a terrible parent, yeah, um, and so I'm now like as I'm, as I have to kind of go through. What are your core beliefs? Um, my older son kind of like thinks everyone else is stupid and they don't know anything, and that's like like he's great, yeah, whereas my second it's like everybody hates me.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so that's. Oh, I'm having to kind of one humble this one, my older one, and then my second son. I'm trying to get him to understand that those are not true.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And probably I've given that sort of belief to you and I have to sort of apologize and sort of work through that and kind of help them with that? Have you what is what is a good way? Like cause, I think, parents, as they're going through parenting, so you can just tell me you sort of realize you've, you've, you've created in your child some anxiety, uh, that maybe you even had and it's like and I've just passed that on to you Congratulations.
Speaker 2:Right Like how do you?
Speaker 1:parent through some of that to kind of get them to a place of wholeness, healthy. You know rowdy.
Speaker 2:So are we talking about just anxiety, or are you talking about just?
Speaker 1:negative core beliefs in general, negative core beliefs which I think feed into the anxiety.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, for one thing, I was going to say I don't know if this is answering your question, but I just remembered this and think it's important for people to know. So if you're not going to see a counselor, sometimes it can be hard to even know what your core beliefs are. A counselor is hopefully trained in kind of pulling that out, but if you don't have a counselor, you might be like, well, I don't even know what my core beliefs are.
Speaker 2:And one good way, and I'll tell a little story about myself which, if I was counseling, this would be a no-no, because in the counseling world you're not supposed to disclose anything about yourself to that, because it draws the person too close to you well, that could be one thing, but also, you don't ever want to put the client in a position where they feel like they have to console you, right where they feel like, oh gosh, I was going to tell them about this, but now I'm worried that it's going to trigger something, trigger them, and so you don't want that, and so I'm not really supposed to talk about myself when I'm counseling, but I'm not counseling, right now.
Speaker 2:And so I'll tell the story just because I think it could maybe help someone figure out what their core belief is. And also I will say, if I wasn't currently in school learning about all of this stuff, I don't think I would have connected what I'm about to tell you with oh, this might be a core belief of mine but because it's like at the forefront of my mind all the time.
Speaker 2:I'm on the lookout for this kind of a thing. But if you remember, a few months ago I was here leading a um like a group counseling session and I had an appointment like right when this finished over in cedar park so I needed to leave like the second.
Speaker 2:The hour was up, well, and it was a great thing, but at the hour mark, like the conversation was actually really good and the women were still talking and it was not coming to any kind of an end point, and I was kind of sweating on the inside because I'm like I've got to get to Cedar Park, I'm going to be late for this appointment, but I also don't want to just awkwardly interrupt this great conversation. And so I'm kind of figuring out what do I do? And so, finally, I just was like guys, I'm so sorry to interrupt, I've got to go, I have another appointment to get to. And I interrupted the conversation, which they were gracious about.
Speaker 2:But as I'm like gathering my things and I'm like rushing, I just for some reason felt completely awkward. I felt so awkward that I'm like interrupting the conversation, I'm leaving in the middle of this session, I'm like gathering my things while they're still talking. And so, as I'm walking to my car, a thought pops in my head and it was like oh my gosh, why are you always such an awkward person? Like that pops into my head right. Well, I bet any of us I'm sure you too like all throughout the day, thoughts, and again in the cognitive behavioral therapy world those are called automatic thoughts these thoughts that just pop in your head.
Speaker 2:So for me it was oh my gosh, why am I such an awkward person? Well, as I start kind of applying all the things I'm learning right now, I'm like, oh, that's an automatic thought I just had. What does that mean about myself? The fact that the thing that pops in my head is I'm an awkward person? Well, as I kind of like trace it down, I think probably for me, a core belief I have is like and I'm not, I'm like I'm fine. I'm not like crying over this or needing anyone to console me, but I think, if I'm really examining myself, a core belief is like something is kind of wrong with me.
Speaker 1:Like.
Speaker 2:I'm slightly awkward. I'm slightly, not quite as together as other people or something. So that's like a core belief. But I identified that by like what are the automatic thoughts that pop in my head? And a lot of times it's oh my gosh, you're so awkward. Oh my gosh, I'm sure they thought that was so weird my head. And a lot of times it's oh my gosh, you're so awkward.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I'm sure they thought that was so weird.
Speaker 2:Um, but does this make sense, okay, so for a person that's trying to figure out what is my core belief, like, one thing that you can do is be very aware of these automatic thoughts that pop into your head throughout the day.
Speaker 1:That's good man. I'm like now. I'm like now. I'm like what are my core beliefs? Um, yeah, so walk me through it, cause I would love to like, yeah, so like with this situation, which I didn't again like I'm.
Speaker 2:I'm just trying to provide an example. I didn't like go home and like cry over this or anything or feel you know terrible about myself, but uh like. So if I was trying to figure out what's my core belief, based on that automatic thought, I could do something like oh my gosh. So my thought again was oh my gosh, why am I always so awkward? Well then I could have asked myself well, what makes me think I'm awkward?
Speaker 2:Well, I feel like those girls looked at me weird when I had to get up and leave. Well, what if they did? What does that mean about me? If the girls looked at me weird? What does that mean about me? Well, I don't know. I guess maybe it means I'm kind of a weird person. Well, what if that's true? What if I'm kind of a weird person? Well then that means, like, something's wrong with me. I'm not supposed to be a weird person, I'm supposed to be a normal person. And so you've kind of arrived at the core belief of well, I guess something is wrong with me right so you kind of keep asking the question well, what would that mean If that was true?
Speaker 2:if that thought is true, what would that mean? Okay, well, if that's true, what does that mean about yourself?
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, that's, that's awesome. I think a couple, like, as you're sharing that, a couple of thoughts just popped in my head, because I know I have no need to console you so I can uh, is I, was it reminded me of, like, when I was in the army and guys were not? I mean, we went through a hard year in combat and so I remember, like one conversation, I think it came out, where I didn't think my lieutenants thought I was a very good leader and I go, you guys probably think I'm not. You know, I kind of just said that you guys don't think I'm that good or whatever. I'm sorry I failed you, or so you're not that bad.
Speaker 1:You know it was a weird, it was funny how I just sort of assumed I'm the worst at that and I think that translates into pastoring of. Like you know, I'll hear. The only things you hear or remember are all the times people criticize you. Right that sermon's not, I'm just not getting fed.
Speaker 2:That sermon's boring, that was whatever, whatever.
Speaker 1:And then you're like I think you can kind of bias toward those things, as opposed to a gazillion people that are still here and haven't left Well, not even to mention.
Speaker 2:people are usually more vocal with their complaints than with their praises. So the people that speak up or write in are usually the ones with a problem.
Speaker 1:And so you can kind of spiral on the negativity and be like I guess that's who I really am. And then so the question you asked what does that mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, if that were true, what does that mean? It was like yeah. So if that were true, what would that mean about me?
Speaker 1:So okay, so that, if that were true, what would that mean about me? I would say, well, I guess our church is never going to grow. Yeah, and then if our church is never going to grow then what does that mean about you?
Speaker 2:Yeah?
Speaker 1:I'm a I'm a bad pastor, and eventually I'm going to be not be able to leave my family because everyone's going to leave, and so I'll just be homeless with a family of six and we'll have to figure out where we're going to live on I-35.
Speaker 2:And then, if that happened, what does that mean about you?
Speaker 1:Well then, it means I'm worthless. I'm worthless, I've done nothing.
Speaker 2:I haven't contributed to my church or to my family.
Speaker 1:I'm worthless, I'm not. Yeah, I have no value, right, I have no value.
Speaker 2:I'm worthless, and so but back to this self-fulf thing the problem with these automatic thoughts and then the core beliefs is that if I believed, if my core belief is well, there's something wrong with me or if your core belief was I'm worthless and I have no value. Well then, you're going to start acting that way. If you have convinced yourself I'm worthless, I have no value, then you're going to probably be like and so therefore I'm not even going to attempt to lead this, this church, or I'm not going to even so then your behavior starts being altered because of this thing that you believe about yourself.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about people who are conflict resistant.
Speaker 2:Conflict avoidant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the word, so conflict avoidance. So I would say that when you're conflict avoidant, you're afraid of being rejected. Would that be the normal thing? So if I have this hard conversation with this person, I'm ultimately going to be rejected. If I'm rejected, that means I'm going to be abandoned. If I'm abandoned, I'm going to be alone and I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1:I think it's a genuine fear producing anxiety, which people go to, and that they go all the way to the extreme and they don't give the other person enough credit to say that they are a functional person that can probably have a conversation and not just um, completely you know right, write you off yeah.
Speaker 1:And maybe in our culture of I don't know, I don't say social media culture, where you do write off people all the time, and maybe we've been writing people off in our heads for so long that we just assume everyone wants to write us off as well. Do you see that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, like what you're saying. Yeah, in the social media world, it's very easy to just like unfriend, unfollow.
Speaker 1:I'm done. I'm done, I'm out. Okay, I'm blocking you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this conversation has gotten too hard or too annoying, and so therefore I'm out or you're out, blocking you.
Speaker 1:Right, so how? So? I guess the question would be like let's, let's tell you our conflict avoidant people, um which I think there's a high number of those.
Speaker 2:I mean I am, if I'm being honest. I am a conflict avoidant person. I don't know how familiar you.
Speaker 1:She's ridiculous, I know, but give me, I think, let me see if I can play this game. Go ahead, what number?
Speaker 2:are you? Well, I'm a nine.
Speaker 1:You're not a peacemaker, peace maker.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm guessing that you're probably going to eight. No, I'm not, I'm a seven.
Speaker 1:Okay, I was going to say an eight with a seven. I flatten the hierarchy.
Speaker 2:That's my big problem. They get totally offended by like oh wait, I thought we were friends and I'm like but you have to work for me, Right?
Speaker 1:But?
Speaker 2:I am your boss, so are you a seven with an eight wing?
Speaker 1:Yes, Okay, but I was raised by threes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so that's so. I guess I go to a three in times of stress.
Speaker 2:Okay, and see I go to a three in times of health. Oh nice, yes, yeah, look at that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm like. So, whenever things aren't going well, I'm like we got to do more things and do the things and do the things Right right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yes, but conflict avoidant people is what you were wanting to talk about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so conflict avoidant people. How are you able to train them to like it's not the end of the world. In fact, it's actually going to draw you closer? I think that actually the thing that you're afraid of the opposite is going to happen. Do you kind of go to that direction with people, or? Do you even believe that to be true. I think that's one of the things that's always tough to wrap your head around.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, with the topic of being conflict avoidant, or just back to what we were talking about with the core belief thing. Really, the fix for that is, once you've identified the core belief, the fix is and there's different ways, different techniques that counselors use to bring this about but the fix is to okay, now act as though that isn't true. So my core belief is, or yours, hypothetically I'm worthless, Okay. Well, what we're going to do is we're going to do some things where you're going to act as though that's not true.
Speaker 2:You're going to behave and proceed in life as though it's not true that you're worthless as though it's true that you're valuable.
Speaker 1:I'm a conflict-avoidant person and I know I have a hard conversation. How would I act like I'm not going to get rejected? What would that look like?
Speaker 2:I think it's going to just be like you're just going to have to go do it. It's almost like a behavioral experiment is what we call it. You're facing your fear, kind of it yeah, you're gonna go do it and then you're gonna come back to counseling and we're gonna talk about how did that feel?
Speaker 2:yeah um, did you get rejected? And actually maybe they did, who knows like. It's not realistic that every time you have a heated conversation that you're going to get rejected every time. So that's a fear that I think could be dismissed. But you might sometimes right. I mean, sometimes you might enter into a conflict and make the other person so mad that they do, in fact, reject you.
Speaker 1:But that's okay, even if and I think sometimes, if you're a person that's conflict avoidant, you're usually worried about how you're the one with the issue.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And you're not able to see that actually the other person has an issue. Yeah, and if they reject you like that, that's a problem that they need to deal with Right and you don't need to own that Right.
Speaker 1:And that reality is a part of growing Like that, like, in fact, you bringing up an issue that causes them to reject and run is probably them. They had the same fear coming to the conversation that you did, and if they're responding in such a crazy way, that might be because they have an issue that they haven't dealt with, and I think sometimes we can get so in our head. My mom used to always tell me this, like you know, like I was worried about what I was wearing to school. She's like Chris, who cares. Nobody's going to see it. They're so worried about themselves.
Speaker 1:It's true, yeah, and I think that's the reality, where people are so worried about themselves and whenever a hard conversation comes up, they're not thinking you're the problem. They're thinking you know how can I get out of this? And still.
Speaker 2:Right. They're focused on their own selves, not on you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, are you very familiar with, like, the topic of being like differentiated. Have you heard this?
Speaker 1:phrasing before.
Speaker 2:Okay. So though I mostly know about and use cognitive behavioral therapy, there's this whole other world, this whole other approach that I'm actually very interested in, and I'm just learning about it, so I don't want to act like I. I mean.
Speaker 2:I'm at a surface level still but the more I learned about it, the more and more I'm very interested in and thinking like I might start to incorporate more of this than CBT eventually. But so it's like family systems is systems is the kind of the name of this approach or this theory, and basically the concept of it is that whenever, like, a couple comes in or a family comes in and there's issues in the home or issues in the marriage, like, it's never just about a person right.
Speaker 2:Like. It's like a system. There is something, everybody is bringing something to the table that is influencing just the feel of the home, the feel of the dynamics of the relationship. Um, I'm kind of not describing it very well no, I fully am with you.
Speaker 1:But there's a concept if someone's angry all the time, everyone's walking on eggshells right, and you bring someone who's making jokes, that kind of lightens the mood and everyone feels a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah yes, yeah, almost everyone has a role to play, but sometimes people are playing roles they don't want to play to compensate for other people who aren't doing their role properly, and so it's like this whole system where everyone is being affected by everyone. But the thing I find most interesting is that the healthiest relationships whether you're talking about friendships or marriage, or parents and children is relationships where each person is very differentiated, and what that means is so a very well-differentiated person they have, like their thoughts and their feelings aren't just one amorphous blob.
Speaker 2:Like they can think critically about their feelings. They can also have feelings about their thoughts, but it's not just all one in the same. So some people there is no distinction like their. Their feeling is their thought. If I feel this way, this must be the thing to do. I don't even know what I'm thinking.
Speaker 1:I'm just feeling and I'm actually people like that use I feeling, I felt, when actually that was what they thought and they can't tell the difference.
Speaker 2:Right, yes, well, exactly Right.
Speaker 1:Like I felt that I should go to the store, like that's not a feeling, that's like a thought.
Speaker 2:I felt it was yeah, exactly yes, you're saying it exactly right. But also so that's one form of being undifferentiated is when your thoughts and your feelings are all one blob.
Speaker 2:But another way that you could be an undifferentiated which is not good undifferentiated person is when you don't know where you start and where your spouse or your child or your friend you're codependent essentially, so that's also one big, just blob. There's not clear boundaries of here's who I am and here's who you are, and though we love each other, also though we love each other, but also I'm still me and you're still you, and I'm going to treat you well because I love you and I care about your feelings. But I also don't feel responsible for your every emotion. If you're in a bad mood today, if you are whatever, I don't feel like it's on me to fix it, because you're you and you have your feelings and I'm me and I have mine.
Speaker 2:So usually when there's like dysfunction in a marriage, in a family, between a parent and a child, it's because either the lines between where you end and I begin is blurred or the lines between my thoughts and my feelings are blurred, or sometimes like all of it is, and so the more differentiated people become, actually, the healthier relationships are, and so, when you are healthy, you have what we call a secure attachment, you feel very free and very comfortable to have conflict and to speak your mind and to disagree with the other person, because you feel very secure in who you are and in this relationship.
Speaker 2:And if you disagree with me, that's okay, it's not going to change how I think about myself or how I think about you. But if you have an insecure attachment, as a lot of people do, you feel like okay, this connection already feels very unsteady, and so, therefore, I'm going to say whatever I need to say and do whatever I need to do, and agree with you all the time, because I'm afraid if I don't, you're going to leave. That's a very insecure attachment and that's very unhealthy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, and so then there's also what avoidant attachment Then there's also avoidant attachment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's anxious security style avoidant, secure and insecure, I think yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so avoidant. So this is where I think I have run into people like this. The closer they get like with people they don't really know they're really secure, it's great, but the closer they get to someone could probably reflecting upon family of origin issues the closer they get to, the more they become anxious or avoidant, uh, over time, because it's just like they're now as close as they were to somebody who hurt them in some way and so then, they start reverting back to that sort of relationship right um, actually this.
Speaker 1:Then this sort of thought takes me to the next question. I got asked by someone recently. They're dating and they were talking about, like how do I know this is the right person and I'm like you'll know it's the right person. After you say I do, that's how you know. But, uh, but if, like prior to that right, like how, how is this person a good fit? And, um, I think that getting into family of origin, attachment styles with parents, ultimately because this is what I've said at church a lot your attachment style to your parents reveals probably your attachment style to God, because your parents serve as proxies for God and you just blow up them and then the way you reveal as God the Father is probably a lot of the ways you dealt with your parents. So if you sort of like were and this is where I think getting into what it means to be anxious at attachment or avoidant attachment, or secure attachment or insecure- attachment.
Speaker 1:How would I know if the avoidant attachment thing, which then translates to now God even if you're now 50 years old, you still haven't modified your kid view of God? Like I feel like there's a lot of people that have a Sunday school view of God and that they're stuck there and maybe there's some trauma from when they're eight with their parents and so they just kind of get stuck. So talk me through the avoidant, because I do, if you can. I don't know, now I'm throwing you on the spot, like let's see what you really learned in school. Yeah, like anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, secure attachment, insecure attachment. Let's walk through some of those. I think those are actually like when you were saying that, I was like oh, man that I'm talking to with people about.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't know if I feel comfortable answering it only because, like I said, I'm kind of just starting to learn this theory and I don't want to misspeak. I feel like I've become pretty familiar with what a secure versus an insecure attachment looks like.
Speaker 1:Give me the insecure attachment.
Speaker 2:Well, the insecure is kind of what I was saying a second ago. So, yeah, an insecure attachment. You're going to be very afraid of conflict, like we were just saying, because you feel insecurely attached to the person, so you feel like you have to keep them, you have to win them at all times you don't want to disagree with them or disappoint them or not and what they want and what they're after in life and what is important to them, what they're passionate about. Sometimes people like that a reason is because they spent so much of their childhood insecurely attached to their parents and so, rather than feeling the freedom to kind of I don't necessarily mean physically go off, but maybe physically go off, but the freedom to go off and figure out who they are, as a person.
Speaker 2:They didn't feel the freedom to do that because they were too.
Speaker 1:Is that the enmeshed part?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like I don't want to go off and I need, I have to stay here and you know, basically take care of this relationship with my parents. It feels so insecure, I don't feel the freedom to be me. If I become me, maybe it's going to cause a rift in this relationship with my parents, and so, rather than discovering themselves and kind of coming into their own, they just kind of stay morphed or not morphed, but merged, I guess, right, right.
Speaker 1:So the question you could ask that might reveal this is like what are you passionate about, or what do you really want to do? And they have no clue.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly. So then you start trying to find out, well, what was your childhood like and what was the relationship like with your parents? And you know, not like I don't want to also make it seem like everything has to be parents' fault. I think that is kind of I don't like that mentality. You know, like I feel like in counseling so often it always goes back to like, well, how did your mom and dad raise you? Or what mistakes did your mom and dad raise you, or what mistakes did your mom and dad make? And of course that plays a part. I mean, of course it plays a huge part. The way you were parented and what your home and your childhood was like shapes you, um, but you know, parents are just people too and so they were shaped by the things they were shaped by.
Speaker 2:People hurt people, and so yeah exactly, and so I don't think it's like parents fault necessarily, or it doesn't, it doesn, it doesn't like put the fault, but it does explain. It does explain.
Speaker 1:It helps to explain, because then it gives you a path forward.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:So I think what I've heard. So avoidant attachment is when a person has a tendency to avoid emotional closeness.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And maybe dismiss important intimate relationships relationships yeah, so like I don't need that person, right um?
Speaker 2:which I would imagine comes from some kind of trauma, right like maybe at some point they weren't avoidant and they got very hurt or disappointed or lost someone and therefore as a coping mechanism right.
Speaker 1:I'm like am I gonna do that again? I can cut that person out, I can move on um, and then let's see there was avoidant, and then you said anxious. So do you remember anything? And therefore, is a coping mechanism Right? It's like why am I going to do that again? I can cut that person out and I can move on, and then let's see there was avoidant, and then you said anxious. So do you remember anything on anxious? Because I do think that it was kind of. Let me see if I can find.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in my head, anxious and insecure are kind of feeling. I'm now going to look at it.
Speaker 1:You can probably. I'm just going to give you like a real short one and then you tell me you can probably go on. You have a strong desire for intimacy, combined with doubts and abandonment anxiety.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:That. That probably sums it up.
Speaker 2:Right yeah, so how would somebody?
Speaker 1:get so how would you have so the abandonment anxiety would be like you're not going to it almost seems like from what you were just reading.
Speaker 2:It almost seems like with the avoid, like with the anxious, it's like they're desiring this intimacy and this closeness, but there's a whole lot of fear and anxiety involved. The avoidance almost seems like you know, maybe deep down they desire it, but they have almost just like shut off that part of themselves yeah where they're not even aware that they're desiring I just pulled up this one.
Speaker 1:This has all four of them. Secure attachment you're trusting and feel comfortable with intimacy and space, which we talked about. Then you've got anxious attachment you have a strong desire for intimacy combined with doubts and abandonment anxiety. Avoidant attachment you live with a strong desire for independence and a sense of not needing anyone and then fearful, avoidant is, you may face inner or sorry, disorganized attachment. I think you may face inner conflicts between wanting intimacy and having fear of getting too close.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're just kind of all over the place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that makes the relationship like in marriage anyway, I think that makes the relationship feel like you're walking on eggshells and with a bipolar person.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because they're constantly like I want to be close to you, and then you get close like I hate you.
Speaker 2:I want to know, I want to just defy me. You're like what am I dealing with?
Speaker 1:right, and then the the person that maybe have a secure attachment, or maybe they have a nobody's. Yeah, they have a their own disorganized attachment, or they have their own anxious. They're like, yeah, all their biases are coming true because this person is acting in a dysfunctional way right and how can have a relationship.
Speaker 2:Right, which I think, like you were asking about premarital stuff. I think that that's a huge thing, is for couples before and I don't know that it means that you shouldn't get married but, I, just think, being aware of each person's attachment style and knowing okay, we know this about each other, so we're going to need to be mindful of this? I don't know that it necessarily means it's not going to work as a.
Speaker 1:You know, I think they could maybe make it work still, but I think they need to be aware well yeah, and I think the more information you have, the better what I usually tell people, because usually when people get married they're in the uh honeymoon right perfect phase, and so it's like you can't hear anything I'm saying and so I go.
Speaker 1:You know what? Listen, you can't hear me. Even if I told you exactly what to do, you wouldn't do it because you're like that's not gonna be us. Come talk to me two months after you're married and then, when reality is hit right, I always feel like there's a shift from a transactional relationship which usually does with a lot of like, like a lot of the emotional um, I call it the emotional crutch that happens in a relationship like you're married, in your head you might not be having.
Speaker 1:You know you do it really christian like and you're not having sex, but emotionally you are one with that person and so you are. You know you do it really Christian-like and you're not having sex, but emotionally you are one with that person and so you're wanting to constantly appease and you're kind of feeding into all of the things you're talking about. You don't want to rock the boat because you don't want to screw this up, and that's a very transactional relationship. And then, when you're married, it shifts to covenantal and you're like you feel relaxed because it's a done deal, you're locked in by law, by God, everybody, and then you're like screw you. And I've seen that happen enough times to know no one's intentionally going into this with like a screw you mentality.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:However, once they get married, they lose that performance to be accepted mindset.
Speaker 2:And now you're getting the real them, whereas before you were getting them on their best behavior yeah, well, for sure, and I think it's important um to like, I think especially um especially couples who are believers right I think it's important for each of them to even know and be able to say, like what they feel, like the purpose of marriage even is because I actually counseled someone really recently and she is unhappy in her marriage and she was saying how and she is a believer, but she was saying how prior to getting married she was like I know it sounds stupid in hindsight now that I'm older and I'm more mature in my faith Like I know this sounds dumb, but she's like I think I thought marriage was just going to make life more fun. Like I think ultimately, that's what I thought the purpose of marriage is. It's like it'll be fun and I'll have like a best friend all the time that lives with me and I'll never be alone and we'll be having fun together. And you know, like that's not how it's panned out, right.
Speaker 2:For her, or really for anybody, I mean that's not how it goes, and so I think, just having a realistic like sure it's icing on the cake If, when you're married, you're still having fun together and like that's a good thing, it's not a bad thing, it could be even a good thing to work towards. But if that's like the reason that the two of you are getting married, that's not going to, I mean, you're going to be disappointed real soon, as with a lot of other reasons that people are getting married for. So I think, having an understanding of what, why are we even doing this ultimately? Knowing that eventually the fun is going to probably fade. Eventually certain things are going to fade.
Speaker 1:It's going to go from fun to work.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think that's all of life. When you get to a new job, oh, I'm so excited about this new job. And then that first three months is always hell. And then after that it's like fun again.
Speaker 2:And then after that it's like fun again, and then after that it's like, oh, you go through this period where your boss is moody for a while and then, like you're going through all sorts of stuff, no matter how much you like it, the reality is it's a job right, just like marriage, like no matter how much, there's fun sometimes and love like there's a person there lifelong commitment with one person for life like that's not going to feel just light and airy and happy every moment, yes, okay.
Speaker 1:So, um, here's a theory, and now that I'm saying it out loud, I don't know if I made this up or if I heard it somewhere. I thought I heard it somewhere, but now I may have made it up. Okay, ready, okay, um, and I told you about this one earlier, but a woman transitioned. I always thought a woman would transition the relationship she had with her dad to her husband.
Speaker 2:Like wanting her husband to be like her dad.
Speaker 1:You're saying More like the relationship dynamic. Okay, meaning, if you just talk and talk and talk and talk and talk with your dad, you're going to talk and talk and talk with your husband Okay. But what I've noticed in many of the marriages I have coached I don't do counseling, I do coaching.
Speaker 1:by the way, I've noticed that for the most part it's the relationship the woman has with the mom that somehow she passes like. If she's resentful towards her mom, that gets passed on to her husband. Okay, as opposed to like like she implicitly trusts her father and like whatever you say, goes right that doesn't transition to the husband, she gets the.
Speaker 1:Or if, like if she just talks to her mom every day on the phone that that desire expectation is transitioned to the husband right and I guess this is where I thought, you know, maybe it's like I can't figure out why that is, and I was just wondering if you'd seen anything like that in your.
Speaker 2:Well, I haven't ever. You were telling me about this before we started and I have not ever heard this theory. So now I'm like thinking about it and I'm thinking in my own mind like did I do that with my mom and then with my husband?
Speaker 1:And I'm kind of thinking maybe now that you say that, Now it might be like I now just put this in your head and now you're biased toward it. I mean.
Speaker 2:that's why I'm trying to really critically think about it and not just be like, yeah, I did that Think about this theory.
Speaker 1:I think I just have seen it in so many relationships and I go hey, hold on. I say I stop the car.
Speaker 2:I say with your mom, and then the woman would say and I said, okay, tell me about your relationship with your husband. Then she'd go and it's the same, and I so this isn't this like something that you have read like you.
Speaker 1:Just I thought I read you know, it's one of those things where you I thought I heard it somewhere professional and and I just and I started to just act on it and like just ask the question is this true? And then it's I haven't had a time where it hasn't been true. We're like nah that's not it at all. I'm like okay, well, never mind right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's interesting because when I'm sitting here thinking and I think you know well I've always heard that women tend to marry guys that are kind of like their dad right and I actually think that is I think that's true. I think that's true, but the relationship, but the relationship, yeah, and so I'm thinking like with my mom growing up, and especially like in my teen years and college years, like me and my mom interacted constantly like constantly texting, Like I wasn't the kind of girl that like called home on Sundays, Like we're in constant communication via text every little thing.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh mom, guess what just happened. And I think when I first got married and not even just first, like I think kind of I expected that in marriage too, like constant communication and like constantly texting. You know what I? Mean so that's one thing I can see, yeah, and I think that's true. Like that constant interaction, right yeah.
Speaker 1:And I don't know if there's something that like again, I haven't got this where it's like my theory is limited to the woman and her mom. I don't know if there's a correlation between like a husband and his mom, Right or his a husband and his mom or his dad or something, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I don't know if that's true at all, right?
Speaker 1:Anyway, I was just curious on what your thoughts on that were. But I feel like that in any way, if you are in a relationship and you're going to get married, I think investigating those relationships to a degree again that doesn't say don't get married. But, here's something to be aware of. This is how I interacted with my mom get married. But here's something to be aware of. This is how I interacted with my mom and.
Speaker 1:I might put that expectation on you as my spouse, because you're supposed to be, you're supposed to have all the characteristics of my dad and then you're supposed to have all the friendship. Yes, just just like. Not much, Don't, don't worry.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, I think that's a good point. So I think, yeah, I think couples should consider what is their, what do they think the purpose of getting married even is, what's the purpose of marriage? I think attachment style is a good thing to know. Going into it, what you just said might be something wise too. We're just learning about this theory today, but I think you're onto something with it, and yeah, I just think so. Like, I think, being really aware too of what each other's parents marriages looked like, because you're going to like that's what you've seen all your life right, and, whether you realize it or not, you're shaped by how your parents interacted with each other. And so, I think just being aware of all that, because sometimes your spouse will act in some certain way and you're like what's wrong with you, or why would you think that, or why would you think that, or why would you act this way? Well, if you understood where they came from and how their parents were and how, then you understand better.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. Just think, being aware. A thousand percent man. I feel like we could talk more about this, but we're going to have to bring Haley back.
Speaker 1:That's what I think is like. We're going to bring her back and we're going to ask if you've got any questions. For the next time we bring Haley back, text us at 737-231-0605 or go to pastorplekcom and leave a question there for us. We'd love to hear from you. We'll be back. We'll talk more about relationship, dynamics, counseling all that we would love to hear from you. Even if we talk about parent to kid, to spousal or premarital or relationship, we love to talk about all those things. But from our house to yours, have an awesome week.