Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Raised from the Dead?
312: Pastor Plek and Jordan Smith answer a couple of questions from our listeners: Do we know anything about the saints that were raised in Matthew? What does "fallen asleep" mean and what happened to the saints who were raised?
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and welcome back to pastor plex podcast. So glad all of you are joining us, as recording live here in austin texas and with me, is none other than the very astute, very smart techie of the. What is it? Are you like a forensics police person?
Speaker 2:just a data analyst data analyst.
Speaker 1:okay, so very smart data analytics guy, and that's Jordan Smith. Welcome, jordan.
Speaker 2:Howdy Thank you.
Speaker 1:So, jordan, we are working with a couple questions which are super hard, and I can't wait to one ask you and then see if this is ever anything you ever think about, all right, I mean, I think about a lot of weird stuff about the Bible.
Speaker 1:All right, here we go, here we go. This is a Bible question. Do we know anything about the saints that were raised in Matthew 27, 52 to 53? Let me just read that real quick. So after 51 says behold, the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, rocks were split, the tombs also were open and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised and coming out of the tombs. What does fallen asleep mean? And what happened to the saints that were raised? What is speculated to have happened to them? And you would think there would be more accounts of them mentioned. All right, that is a great question, and I think the problem is we don't know and I know that's like a punt, because this event is nowhere explained anywhere else in scripture. So the best we can do is speculate. Any thoughts from you. First off, is this something you ever think about and does it have any actual make a difference in your life?
Speaker 2:No, I mean, I'm just remembering those verses because they weren't on the top of my head, uh. But falling asleep means dying. Yeah, pretty sure. And I think I asked you right before this what is the holy city, because I thought that could mean heaven. But what did you?
Speaker 1:what jerusalem is, usually what it means or it could be, it's okay. So what you're saying is it's in heaven and the dead were raised, are now in heaven.
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't know. I was just Whenever I read holy city. I mean that could mean different things. Yeah, I think it just means.
Speaker 1:Jerusalem. I think falling asleep means those were dead. I do think it is that some people were raised to life just like Lazarus means those were dead. I do think it is that some people were raised to life just like lazarus. So you have I don't know how many it was, and this is where it gets challenging. Does that mean that you know how, like you know, ring the bell back in the day, they would have a lot of people that when they exhumed coffins there were scratches on the top of the, because they weren't actually dead, uh, and they literally had just fallen asleep, and so it could be that. But it could be that they wanted to show resurrection power in the death of Jesus, matthew writing it and God obviously inspiring it, and so there were literally dead people who were raised and were saints, much like Lazarus, who had believed, and they were raised and they went to the city, showed themselves and were on that.
Speaker 2:The other part of this that— Hold on, can you imagine that? Just like dead people used to know me, like hey, what's up?
Speaker 1:I'm back. I'd be kind of freaked out, or would you?
Speaker 2:I mean, they didn't know much about resurrection back then. Right yeah, but I'm—okay.
Speaker 1:Here's the part that I'm not that I'm skeptical, because I'm not actually. I actually think this is very possible.
Speaker 1:I just think that people once the miracle part of excitement only lasts for about 20 minutes, and then you're like man I got a story you should meet bob and then after you hang around bob for a while and they're just like they were before, you forget that they were raised from the dead. I know, know that seems crazy, but I've seen guys that were in combat like literally felt they were gonna die. And they come back to the States and they don't live like they were just about to die, they live like everybody else. So I think it wears off. The miracle aspect wears off over time and so I don't think it's that far fetched Like okay, here's what I mean by that.
Speaker 1:We have people who have near death experiences today and we're not like shocked about it. We're like, yeah, you know, some guy had a near death experience and they told the story and I'm sure it was great. Like we, you know, we have like, um, we did the series, what's after ATX? We had a bunch of those stories like people local to Austin were literally brain dead, raised from the dead. But there was so much other tumult going on and I'm going to use that word tumult, s-a-t word that was going on at that time, so it probably got overlooked in the hubbub and everything that was happening that people were just like, yeah, I guess that guy raised from the dead, okay, cool story. And enough people were like, yeah, that happened. And other people were like, of course it happened, jesus rose from the dead. How amazing is that? I think what people focused on wasn't the other people who were raised from the dead. Like, lazarus was raised from the dead, but he doesn't get near the press that Jesus gets. Anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess so, but I think they asked what happens to them. I mean, I assume they just live their life and die. It's not like they're immortal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I don't think that they were part of the immortals and they're still around today. Yeah, I definitely think that they end up dying eventually and I think what they're going why aren't more accounts of the mentioned I think it's just for that reason is that they eventually died anyway. They eventually got old, they eventually were normal people. Lazarus eventually died. You would think that Lazarus would be like where's the book of Lazarus? Where's that book? Where's the publicity that that guy gets? I think that that's the part of the struggle of. For me is that you don't have, I don't know, you don't have that story. Anyway, does that make sense? You don't have that story.
Speaker 2:Anyway, does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, a lot of miracles happen in our lives that we can tend to just forget about over time. I mean going back to the Exodus thing we're talking about right now. They saw the Red Sea parted and they're like nah, they saw God and they're like get him away from me. He's scary, but I mean, what's it? 40 days later, them away from me is scary but I mean, what's it? 40 days later they're having an orgy and worshiping a calf. So you know Right.
Speaker 1:I do think. Here's the thing that I have sort of I don't know become accustomed to. A pastor said this a long time ago and maybe 20 years ago, and I heard it and he said and I don't remember who it was, but it was just stuck with me Miracles are baby rattlers for babies. Remember who it was, but it was just stuck with me Miracles are baby rattlers for babies. Like you need a crazy miracle because you can't see providentially God's hand, and so I don't know, I just I like that, because if you're needing a miracle, you're either I don't want to say weak in faith, but you already are a believer. Because if you see a miracle, a miracle that brings somebody, it's not the miracle that brings somebody to faith, like somebody raised from the dead, Because if you're a skeptic, you're going to be like, ah, that guy wasn't dead anyway.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, like, so I remember you saying, because I asked you this before but like, what solidified your faith? And you said all of your experiences over time, right so? And you said all of your experiences over time, right so, like, how does that differ than miracles for you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so God's faithfulness over time. But he opened my eyes to see him and then you know, apologetics only goes to further my faith that I already have. You know I send stuff to my atheist friend Charlie all the time and he'll send me back like 10 things or just like that from the agnostic or atheist point of view, and so it does nothing for his lack of faith, in fact probably further exacerbates his unbelief, because more of course you would find a whatever, whatever just like somebody is not going to convince me of not being a christian.
Speaker 1:Um, the only way you could do that is if you know you found jesus's bones somewhere, and even then they'd have to be historically reliable. And even then I don't know, because the there's too much evidence to suggest that jesus rose from the dead for me. But that's because I have a heart that can believe.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean, I would assume if you saw someone claiming they found Jesus' bones, you would just discredit it Exactly.
Speaker 1:I'd be like nah, what else you got, which I know sounds terrible. Also, leviticus 23, 10-14 describes the first fruits of the harvest and where you would wave a grain offering to symbolize how the harvest that we're about to take in here's the first fruits, and so it could have been that those were the first fruits of the resurrection.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, maybe you know. Okay, anyway, because that happened.
Speaker 1:I don't know at the Passover and so you kind of got that. So it could be right. It could be. I know that's probably like this person's answer isn't fully awesome, but it could be All right. How about this one Between Christ's death and resurrection, where was he?
Speaker 1:Some say he descended into hell. What's the difference between hell, h, sheol and the lake of fire? Are they the same? Oh gosh, okay, that's a fun one. Yeah, it's, there's so many layers of this. But um, hell, uh, okay, hell and hades. You know, like hades and sheol generally are the old testament version of hell, place of the dead, but the place the dead still was separated between what we know from, like whenever the story of Lazarus and the rich man, where Lazarus, the guy that's poor and has all these sores, he goes to the bosom of Abraham but he can see across the cavern to the dude that's burning in a fire and he's like, hey, send a warning to somebody to let them know that don't be like me. And he's like, even if somebody rose from the dead and told him that they wouldn't believe it, which is sort of the ironic part of that.
Speaker 2:So you're saying those were two different places.
Speaker 1:So sheol was one place. Uh, I guess hades would be the negative version, but it's a Greek word.
Speaker 2:Sheol is the but can Sheol and Hades be the same place? It's kind of like. Yeah, it's like Are you saying that one was like the saved and one was the damned?
Speaker 1:Like Wells, Branch and Rundberg are both Austin, Right, Sheol and wherever you know, Abraham's bosom, Abraham's bosom and then Hades, the three things all, all coexisting. But there's a cavern in between Abraham's bosom and the Hades, where um the rich man was, I got you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, yeah. So the lake of fire that's reserved for the devil and his angels, that's futuristic, which is different. But I also think all those that don't believe join him there, which is sort of let me pull that up because I know that could be a little bit challenging for that one. I think that's what's happened. Have you heard different things on these?
Speaker 2:personally, yeah, I mean, I kind of have the same philosophy as you, or that's what's happened. Have you heard different things on these? Personally, yeah, I mean, I kind of have the same philosophy as you, or that's what's been dictated to me. It was just Sheol was kind of a graveyard, but more Old Testament before Jesus' resurrection, Right. So that's kind of really all I know about that. I mean, as far as where people are in hell, I mean I don't know if they go down the Dante's Inferno route or- what that's not bad.
Speaker 1:I mean, dante's Inferno kind of gives you the view that there is layers or levels of hell, and I do think that that would be true, because we know that in Revelation 19, you know, I saw the beast and the king and the kings of the earth, and an army is assembled to do battle with the one who rode the horse, with his army. Now, the beast was seized and along with him, the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf, signs by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire burning with sulfur. The others were killed by the sword that extended from the mouth of the one who rode the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves with their flesh. Then I saw an angel descending from heaven, holding his hand the key of the abyss and a huge chain he dragged. He seized the dragon, the ancient servant who was the devil and Satan, and tied him up for a thousand years. Okay, blah, blah, blah, satan. Then, now, when the thousand years are finished, satan will be released from his prison, will go out to see the nation, the four corners of earth, the Gog and Magog, to bring them out to battle. There is numerous of the grains of the sand and the earth. They went up on the broad plain of the earth and circled the camp of the saints and beloved city. Fire came down from heaven, devoured them completely and there they'll be, tormented day and night forever. Which? There you go.
Speaker 1:Then you've got the great white throne. Then I saw a white throne, the one who was seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence and no place was found for them. I'm reading the net version, sorry. Then I saw a great white throne and the one who was seated on it from his presence. Earth and sky fled away and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing for the throne, and the books were open. Another book was open, which was the book of life, and the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done, and the sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and they were judged each one of them according to what they had done. Okay, so then you've got.
Speaker 1:So this is Revelation 20, wrapping it up, and this is where I think the question they're trying to figure out where they're going to go. So you've got All unbelievers, immaterial like they're, literally, their soul goes to Sheol or Hades. Then their death, they go to the grave, okay. Then they're resurrected at the end of millennium judgment, the great white throne, and then they're all thrown into the lake of fire, which is where they go. So death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. So that's where everybody goes. However, you are judged according by what you do. So therefore, there is levels of hell based upon that, and so Dante's in front of them. I mean, I wouldn't agree with that, necessarily, you wouldn't agree with that.
Speaker 2:Go ahead. I mean, it just says they're judged according to their actions, right? Like? Couldn't that just translate to they're judged according to sin? Like they all go to the same place, but they're all judged for their actions?
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, but.
Speaker 2:I mean, is that the only verses where they get that there's levels of hell?
Speaker 1:Yeah, let me pull that up for you. I think that's a great question. So obviously Dante's Inferno is where we get the levels of hell talk, but it's so when you talk about someone's sin is worse than others like. So, for example, sodom and Gomorrah are considered more righteous than the people of Capernaum, so clearly there's a different level of torment for them.
Speaker 2:So then there's levels of sin. Yes, so some sins are worse than others. Don't people try to say the opposite? Okay man, this is fun yeah, so here's, here's where.
Speaker 1:So, um, okay, I'm gonna try and do this as best I can, because this is the part that I I'm gonna try and make it simple can wait.
Speaker 1:So it takes the same amount of blood, like one drop of Jesus' blood covers your sin and my sin. So there's no difference in the amount of sin that you do as far as what you can be. So the reason why we say the amount of sin there's no difference in sin, sin doesn't matter in terms of what God sees. It's because when you're saved, he no longer sees you by your sin. So your sin is judged or is imputed to Jesus equally. So Jesus didn't need to like suffer like five hours for one guy and like two hours for you and 30 seconds for me and half a second for you. Know other people that are really, really good. It takes the same amount of blood to save you as it does me. So that's where sin is equal, in the sense that it doesn't prevent you from getting to heaven because Jesus died for you.
Speaker 1:Now there is consequence to sin, both on earth. So for saved people, there's consequences to your sin, right? So if you are a person that, let's just say, had sex before marriage and had a bunch of kids, you're going to deal with multiple families and that's challenging and difficult. That's a consequence for your sin, like the family aspect of that If you got some disease and you're going to deal with that, that's a consequence of that. So all sin is not equal in that sense on earth.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, does God impute consequences? Are you saying they're just natural to what happens with the flow of that?
Speaker 1:Both Romans. 1 says that, like, for example, homosexuality is a result of sin Not necessarily sin that you did, but the result of idolatry, which is sort of a wild thought Like how is that even possible? I think our culture is sort of screaming that right now, and that's why the result of sin is watching an entire culture exchange the glory of God for the created things or the goodness of God, the ways of God, for lies. Okay, but pause on that, because I think we're going. Are we on like levels of hell we're talking about? So all sin is equal in God's eyes? When it comes to your salvation, all sin is not equal in God's eyes. If you are not saved because that is not, and God is just right the punishment fits the crime and so you get what your sins deserve.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I guess, so that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I mean I wish they would have given us a list of, you know, top-ranking sins, or something like that.
Speaker 1:Well, I think you probably could gather what the top-ranking sins are. I guess my point there is that, let's say you're Adolf Hitler, your time in hell is going to be worse than I don't know someone who didn't believe in Jesus but gave their life to helping the poor or something Right. They still probably help the poor out of a selfish motive of I want to be my own God, right, right, but they so. Man idolatry is worse, so I don't know I think that's a part of how much revelation they receive, because you get judged based on the amount of revelation you have as well, which, again going back to, I've said this many times that you receive, your punishment is built upon the revelation you received.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, I mean, if God chooses certain people, then how does that make any sense? God has to choose who he saves right. So what does it mean?
Speaker 1:like revelation, are you saying people know, deny that this goes back to pharaoh, right when he, the more that's revealed to pharaoh of god's goodness and grace and the more he digs in, to say I choose my pantheon of gods, I, or the more that you reveal of god, of like his grace and his goodness, and someone shares the gospel with you. Someone shares the gospel and you're like nah, I'm good, I want to do what I want to do, I'm going to trust the gods of this world. Then there is more knowledge, so therefore there is more. More was revealed to you, so therefore the punishment is greater. Like that's why he says hey, capernaum, woe to you, capernaum. If the miracles that were done in you were done in Sodom and Gomorrah, they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes. Meaning greater revelation, greater punishment. That's where I'm going with that.
Speaker 2:I mean unsaved people. Can't repent on their own, though, right.
Speaker 1:Right, but that doesn't mean that they weren't given opportunity, and so, therefore, they miss out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it doesn't make any sense to me.
Speaker 1:No, it does make sense because, God is gracious and he has compassion. He has compassion. And this gets back to the same question that you asked me the whole time. Here we are again.
Speaker 2:Let's move on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll move on to the next one. All right, so are there two judgments, one of believers and one? Yeah, we talked about that. So there's the white throne judgment. There's the judgment seat of Christ. Sorry, there's a judgment seat of Christ. That's really talked about in 2 Corinthians 5.10, I think. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. So believers in heaven will be judged for their works. Sin is not in view of this judgment, as that was paid for by Christ, but only faithfulness and Christian service. Selfish works or those done with wrong motives will be burned up. So you remember? That's from 1 Corinthians 3.12, which just says now, if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones or wood, hay, straw, some are going to get only as through the fire, like they're going to get saved as if through fire, because everything they did burned up.
Speaker 2:What does that mean? Like, do they get like a backseat in the you know worship hall of God?
Speaker 1:Exactly so. Some people are going to be janitors in heaven.
Speaker 2:Some people are going to rule many cities, and that's fine, but I mean it's not going to matter, right, because we're all perfect at that point. So right, so you'll be like way to go you and you're being over many cities.
Speaker 1:You deserve that championship. I deserve cleaning up this poop right here on this. There's no poop, I don't know there's like whatever my job of the you know, dusting or, you know, getting the dust.
Speaker 1:There's no dust. I don't know what. I don't know what the janitorial service crew is going to be doing in heaven, but I'm sure there's somebody that's going to be relegated to that job and they're going to love that job and they're going to honor those who are in place of authority and think that's awesome that you're in charge Does that make sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean yeah, sure All right.
Speaker 1:So works of lasting value will survive, okay, and those are rewards which the Bible called crowns, which will, you know, throw down Um, and we are working for the crown of life, um, they're going to give the one who's not unjust. He's not unjust, he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him. So that's, that's what we kind of look at that and go like, god is just and he gives believers what, um they are to receive.
Speaker 2:Now, whenever I read that throwing crowns down, I just think of like a mic drop or something, but that's more prideful than anything, so it wouldn't be that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's more like you get your crown and you bow at his feet and throw it down and be like I'm so unworthy of this.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I understand that. So the great white throne judgment is the final judgment of unbelievers for their sins that occur at the end of the millennium before the creation of the new heaven and earth. At this judgment, unbelievers of all the ages are judged for their sins and consigned to the lake of fire, which we just read about. Okay, okay, okay. Then, oh, here's one that. Where was one oh between Christ's death and resurrection? Where was one oh between christ's death and resurrection? Where was he? This? This question is so hard, uh, so thank you so much for asking it. Um, so some say he descended into hell. Well, the apostles creed says he descended into hell. So what the? The Apostles' Creed says he descended into hell. So what the heck was he doing down there? All right, there are.
Speaker 2:so Didn't it say he was ministering to people? Didn't I read that somewhere in the Bible?
Speaker 1:Let me read the verses that I think this person's 1 Peter 3, 18, esv version, for Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they formerly did not obey when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is eight persons were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is the right hand of God, with angels, authorities and powers being subject, being, having being subject, having been subject to him. All right. So, uh, this is where um michael heiser, I think, has done the best work on this michael heiser, he's a dude, okay.
Speaker 1:You know how, like when you read a book and then all you can, every answer then is tied back to the book you're reading, right? So I'm in that phase right now, so forgive me for this. I'm in a michael heiser.
Speaker 2:Yeah I mean, if he's theologically accurate, it's all right. Yeah, yeah but he's.
Speaker 1:I'm loving the book. It's called unseen realm and it's a theologically fairly accurate to pick. Well, very theologically accurate doesn't take away from orthodoxy all, I think fills in the gaps for me, all the places. And so he equates those verses there in 1 Peter 3, and then also there's 2 Peter 2.4, which let me see if I can pull that up where he goes for if God not spare any angels when they sin but cast them to hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment, and if he did not spare the ancient world but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness with seven others, when he brought in the flood, but okay, so it goes to that question Like he put angels of some kind into a gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment, which is where I think these gloomy angels are, those same angels from 1 Peter 3, where he goes and proclaim to the spirits in prison because they formerly didn't obey when God's patient weighed in the days of Noah.
Speaker 2:All right, Wait. So you're saying it was just angels?
Speaker 1:Sort of yeah, this is where it gets so wild, all right, all right. So this is where I'm going to pull up Michael Heiser Again. This is the part where I'm about to go into a realm that I'm not. I've just been reading this book. I've been loving it so much that now everything is about that. But he pulls from 1 Enoch, which the Bible pulls from 1 Enoch, and that doesn't mean that 1 Enoch is inspired, because it's not. But what it does mean is it gives you some sort of realm of what the writers Peter, jude yeah, peter and Jude would be, and Hebrews, I think, mentions it as well.
Speaker 1:But God sent. So the watchers asked so this is from 1 Enoch, 13, 4. The watchers asked that I write a memorandum of petition for them that they might have forgiveness and that I recite the memorandum of petition the presence of the Lord of heaven. Okay, so he sends like, hey, my bad, we shouldn't have had sex with all you know, the sons of God went into the daughters of men and that's how the heroes or whatever, were created. So there were, like these, demigod people on the planet, the Nephilim or whatever, and they were judged for that, so you believe that's a real thing.
Speaker 1:I think so. I mean I am more into that now, but I mean, even if it doesn't make sense, I like this answer. So God sent his response by way of Enoch, who went to the imprisoned spirits and announced to them that their appeal had been denied. Okay, and Enoch go and say to Azalea do you ever watch? Has Denzel Washington in it? It's like he remember he's the one that has to kill himself because the demon enters him. Do you remember?
Speaker 1:that one it's like an old movie. I don't think I've seen that he's like a detect.
Speaker 2:Anyway, he. I don't think I've seen that one. Yeah, dang it, he's like a detect.
Speaker 1:Anyway, it's cool. It uses Aziel as the demon's name. It says Annie go and say that. Let me see if I can pull it up Now. I got.
Speaker 2:You're not talking about Seven, are you?
Speaker 1:No, it's Denzel Washington. Um, uh, yeah, demon azazel, whatever it's uh fallen. That's the, I think. Yeah, it's from 1998. Yeah, he's a philadelphia police detective hobbs, who investigates occult murders by an apparent copycat, killer, killer possessed by the demon azazel, which who can switch bodies through contact and seeks revenge. So you're saying that's Satan?
Speaker 2:No I don't know.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying that that's probably where they got the name from.
Speaker 2:And all this stuff you're pulling out of a non-inspired book, correct?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Why do you give any credit to any of that?
Speaker 1:So the only reason I give credit to any of that is Jude six, which I granted. I know that this is a little bit of a stretch and I'm not listen. There's outside the Bible kind of stuff, uh, which I'm enjoying, um. But so Jude mentions Enoch, and then you've got first Peters using the same verbiage as Enoch, and that's why I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's what's the right word for that. It's, you know, it's a possibility. I mean, you're asking a question that nobody has an answer to Everybody. They go well, there's a million different possibilities.
Speaker 2:So this Enoch, was an epistle or what.
Speaker 1:No, Enoch was like a um would it be old testament? Uh, intertestamental.
Speaker 2:They say it's written by enoch, but that's a pseudonym for um, but when you say jude mentions enoch, you're talking about whatever this text is so.
Speaker 1:The book of Enoch, or letter of sorry Jude mentions the book of Enoch. So now I want to remind you. This is what Jude says. Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. Okay, so he delivered those and then destroyed them. So that was Jesus who was the angel of death.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And also was the angel of fire and pillar of cloud and all that and the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains until gloomy darkness, until the judgment of the great day, until gloomy darkness, until the judgment of the great day. Well, that's also what 2 Peter 2, 4 says, for if God does not spare angels when they sin, but casts them to hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment, so who are these angels? All right, so far, so good.
Speaker 2:Well, you said Jude mentions Enoch. Like what's that verse?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 1:So that's the part where, okay, hold on, let me get to that verse. Okay, let me find so when you go down a couple verses. And it was also that these Enoch the seventh from Adam, prophesied saying Behold, the Lord comes with 10, thousand of his holy ones to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness they have committed in such an ungodly way, and all of these and all of the harsh things that the ungodly sinners have spoken against him, which you're like. Well, where is that? Let me pull up. That's Jude, verse 14. And Jude 14 is quoting Jude, quoted loosely from a prophecy that Enoch gave, which stands recorded in the apocryphal book of 1 Enoch. This is the only place in scripture where we read that Enoch was a prophet. He's the only individual who lived before the flood and got identified as a prophet. Though God had not inspired that book, he led Jude to quote Enoch's prophecy and the Holy Spirit sometimes led Paul to quote pagan philosophers. Anyway, this is a prophecy of God's judgment that will take place at the second coming of Christ. As such, it's the earliest recorded prophecy of the second coming of Christ. The unbelievers among the false teachers would be the object of God's judgment than if they were living them. So Jude's reference to Enoch as the seventh generation from Adam that's Genesis 5, records all the generations. It's a closed genealogy. So that's it's like, right there. However, critics of the view contend that Jude simply meant that Enoch was a seventh generation from Adam. In biblical genealogy they assumed they were additional intervening generations that Moses didn't mention in Genesis. Nevertheless, careful reading of the genealogy shows that Moses left no room for omitted generations through. Other biblical genealogies do contain gaps. Okay, so that's where he speaks of it. And then verse 16 expands this. So, man, this is wild. It was also those that Enoch the seventh from Adam prophesied. This Jude Behold, the Lord comes with 10,000 of the holy ones angels, I'm assuming to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness they have committed in such an ungodly way and all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These are grumblers, malcontents following their own sinful desires. They are loud mouth boasters showing favoritism to gain advantage. All right. So Enoch spoke of the words, of the deeds of the ungodly. In the quotation just cited, jude comments further on the words and deeds of the contemporary false teachers in this verse, as the former grumblers and false teachers in his day grumbled primarily against God. So that's where he quotes Enoch. That's where, yeah, that's where that comes from. So that's where I'm going back to Enoch. I know this is the challenging part. So I think Peter is now.
Speaker 1:This is Michael Heiser's contention. I won't totally say I'm totally behind it, but I think he's quoting from Enoch and that's why it makes sense that Jesus, when he goes down there, he announces watch, watch, let me show Enoch. So there's Jesus' second Adam. He's also the second Enoch. So, enoch, go and say to Isaiah you have no peace, a great sin has gone against you to bind you. You have no relief or petition because the unrighteous deeds that you revealed this is 1 Enoch because of all the godless deeds and unrighteousness and the sin revealed to men. Then I went and spoke all of them together and they were all afraid and trembling in fear seized them. This is what Heiser says. 1 Enoch goes on to describe the prison terms until the end of days, language that refers to the end times.
Speaker 1:So 2 Peter 2.4, jude 6 makes specific references to the episode of Genesis 6.1-4 and the imprisonment of fallen angels in the underworld. The incident was also on Peter's mind when he wrote his first epistle and our strange passage. He saw a theological analogy between Genesis 6, which is the Nephilim and all that, and their fallout with the gospel and the resurrection. In other words, he considered these events to be types or precursors to New Testament events and ideas. Just as Jesus was the second Adam for Paul, jesus is the second Enoch for Peter.
Speaker 1:Enoch described the imprisoned angels to announce their doom, and Jesus has descended to these same the spirits in the prison, the fallen angels, to tell them they are still defeated despite his crucifixion, because they don't know how it's all going to go. These fallen angels are thinking, hey, the son of God is dead. Maybe we're all on equal playing field now. Oh, just kidding. He can be raised from the dead and he goes and tells them you're still down here in prison for forever. God's plan of salvation and kingdom rule is still intact. In fact, it's right on schedule. The crucifixion actually meant victory over every demonic force opposed to God.
Speaker 2:The victory is declaration of 1 Peter, 3, 14 and 22, ends with Jesus risen from the dead and set the right hand of God. Now we say hold on fallen angels. I've heard that that means just demons. Is that accurate in your opinion?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, but there's different levels of demonic angels. Is that accurate in your opinion? Yes, yes, but there's different levels of demonic angels. There's the divine council that went awry, that, I think, are. Some of them are demon fallen angels. Okay, so the reason why this comes into play is because Jesus is declaring victory over the demonic and one of the things that I just love.
Speaker 1:The gates of hell shall not prevail against the rock. Jesus could be the statement that you know, jesus is the son of God, or Peter, right, one of those three. That's what Catholics always debate. They say it's Peter, right, one of those three. That's what Catholics always debate. They say it's Peter, he's the first pope, whatever.
Speaker 1:But there is a force going on. It says the gates on this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail. The gates of hell is defensive posture. The gates are defense. You put your gates up to defend. Well, that means that the gospel is offensive. Well, obviously we know it's offensive, but it's offensive nature, pushing back the darkness. So when jesus goes to the gates of hell and declares victory, we're coming for you, so you better run. That's why, in the name of Jesus, every demon must flee, because the victory has already been won Makes sense.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's I know. I guess I'm in my own listen Unseen Realm, michael Heiser great book, loving it, and that's where I'm at with that. So I'm really enjoying it. That's why I feel like that answer, or that question, is sort of answered there. So just to recap, because the original question was where was Jesus whenever he died? So you were saying he went to the gates of hell as a second Enoch to declare victory over the gloomy spirit saying hey, there's no hope for you, we win Right.
Speaker 2:Just trying to make sure the audience remembers the original question.
Speaker 1:I know, I know it's a lot, so much, so much work to do and I know that's why it's so challenging. But hey, thanks for those questions and we love questions. Uh, so please send more questions. We talk faith, culture, everything in between, whether you want to talk about like end times things. We're we're about to talk all about all of that. Thanks for watching Any other thoughts there, jordan. I appreciate your help. Hey, from our house to yours, have an awesome week of worship.