Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
The Fierce Loyalty of Divine Love
313: Have you ever wondered why the Bible describes God as jealous? Join Pastor Plek and Cody Sparks for an enlightening conversation as they unpack this intriguing concept. By contrasting God's jealousy with human jealousy, they aim to clear up common misunderstandings. Cody shares his unique insights and uses relatable examples, such as historical sports controversies, to illustrate the key differences. This discussion highlights how God's jealousy is a protective and loving attribute, shedding light on its deeper, more positive implications.
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Joining me in studio is none other than your favorite worship leader, Cody Sparks from the Cody Sparks Band. Welcome back, Cody.
Speaker 2:We're here, yeah Rolling.
Speaker 1:I do like the hat, by the way, the Shane Smith and the Saints. Where'd you get that one?
Speaker 2:Free. It's a one of a kind too, that's not out there for purchase. Wow, wow, that's a pretty big deal, pretty big deal, way to go.
Speaker 1:That's what Fred and Perkz over there. That's what happens, all right. So I want to talk through last week and we talked specifically about jealousy and how God is a jealous God. Cody, growing up, has that been a weird. Have you experienced anyone give pushback to God being jealous?
Speaker 2:No, because I didn't understand what that looked like.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:For us? What is human jealousy compared to God's jealousy?
Speaker 1:Oh nice, yeah, well, clearly Oprah Winfrey had an issue with it. She was hearing a pastor back when she was 27, 28, talking about the attributes of God, and then you know omniscient, omnipotent, and she's like, oh yeah, she's really feeling it. And then jealous, and she's like what? And then she thought God's jealous of me. How petty and insecure do you have to be? And that becomes problematic because in the Ten Commandments, exodus 20, right there on commandment number two says I'm a jealous God. And then Exodus 34, 14, just to make sure, god doubles down on the jealous statement and he says my name is jealous. So anytime you make your name jealous, that pretty much puts you into the jealous category. And so I think that's a definition, into the jealous category. And so I think that's a definition and I kind of made a joke about it how the gold medal of basketball belongs to the Americans. That's right. And back in 1972, it was the first time they ever lost it and it was a weird situation that they protested the actual podium, national anthem thing for the Russians, because they felt like they didn't lose, because it was like this weird situation. And you could look at that as either A they were petty and ungodly jealousy, or they were truly jealous for what was theirs.
Speaker 1:Now I did get some criticism on that definition, by the way, and someone said wouldn't the definition of ungodly jealousy be more aligned with envy? We can sin in jealousy or envy, but jealousy is not wanting to lose something you already have, and envy is desiring something you don't have that somebody already else does. That was what I thought, too honestly, when I originally wrote it. I put jealousy and envy, and then every definition I looked up it uses jealousy and envy as synonyms, and so it's kind of like when people put the definition of insanity, it's like doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result, and that's not actually the definition of insanity. So people need to stop doing that, and the same thing was happening with jealousy and envy.
Speaker 1:It's a semantic wordplay where envy and jealousy are synonyms that don't have any distinct differences. In fact, looking it up, I found check this out I did find this it's this Jealous is feeling or showing an envious resentment of someone or their achievements, possessions or perceived advantage, and so anytime you use the other word in the definition, it sort of loses that distinction, and so that's why I want to go to a godly versus ungodly, because that makes more sense. And so what I chose was this definition of godly jealousy being fiercely protective or vigilant over one's rights or possession and then ungodly jealousy is being discontented or resentful or longing for someone else's possession, and the key word here is is it yours? And I think this is why it's important, because there's very few things that we should be able to share, right, yes, but if I stole your name and I took your name, image and likeness and I use it to make money for myself, then you should have a godly jealousy over the wrong use of your name. I guess the name actually fits.
Speaker 1:And Jordan, I guess Chiles the bronze medal gymnast. She, I think, actually legit, won the bronze. Yes, but the protest that this is what was so weird. Maybe you've been following this story.
Speaker 1:So when she did it, they docked her points and then the american team protested the docking of the points they gave her the points back, which then put her in for bronze, but then, upon further review, they found that the protest for the docking of the points came one second too late, which further review.
Speaker 2:Americans turned in two different videos showing that it was turned in on time, so she should be jealous for her medal, right?
Speaker 1:I think that's what I'm saying An ungodly jealousy. If it's someone else's possession that you want, it's like okay.
Speaker 2:I want that.
Speaker 1:I didn't earn it or no, you're coveting.
Speaker 2:Right, I want something that's not mine.
Speaker 1:And so you know this happens all the time. So if there is a threat to your spouse, you should have a godly jealousy to protect your spouse Right. And so one of the points I made up is the reason why I think one of the reasons why we don't have a good grasp of God's jealousy is because we don't have a good grasp of that being a positive characteristic within human life, Because I think we've said that as parents, we're proxies for God for our kids, and so, whoever you are, inevitably, whatever your strengths, are going to be the part that your kids see as God, and that's an easy thing for them to grasp your weaknesses. That's where they're going to have an issue with God and sort of probably be traumatized by it until they get the right viewpoint in their mind.
Speaker 2:And also the way that I always like. God isn't jealous of us. He's jealous for us. That's good. It's a big, big thing that you have to look into.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and in fact last night when we were talking about that men's group, I had a guy come up to me. He was like I just even after we talked about it in our larger group when we broke down the smaller groups, he's like yeah, I still have a problem with God being jealous of me. And I'm like where are you getting that? Why do people keep saying that? And I think it's because it's the only way we know how to use the language.
Speaker 2:All mine comprehend the jealousy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it wasn't like a dumb guy, it was like a really brilliant guy that works for a really amazing business consulting group, and I was like, okay, you don't understand the semantic range. There's jealousy of which is probably bad, jealousy for that's good, and there's jealousy of which is probably bad, jealousy for that's good. And I think jealousy of is what somebody else has Jealousy for is something that you own and that if there's a threat, you're going to be fiercely protective of it. So, anyway, I think that that's a healthy place to start, and so God is jealous for us, which is one of the greatest gifts that you could have, and after we talked about it, several people remarked it is so encouraging to know that God is jealous for us, which is one of the greatest gifts that you could have. And after we talked about it, several people remarked it is so encouraging to know that God is jealous for me, for me, and I think that's good.
Speaker 1:So I do feel like men have I don't know this is where I don't want to get into the patriarchy or matriarchy, but I do feel like, because there's been such an assault on patriarchy, men have felt bad about being fiercely protective or vigilant over their wives. And so, and maybe rightfully so, maybe you know, back in the day there was some toxic masculinity, which that was the big thing that you know, men are just toxic, blah, blah, blah. And maybe that's true. But man, to sort of throw out men's role as a leader, men's role as protector, men's role as provider, men's role as the leader of the family, well, good luck. And here's the thing If you are a leader, what do leaders do? They exert some control. I think that's the part, and this is where true egalitarians would say men and women are interchangeable in their role. It doesn't matter if it's a man, it doesn't matter if it's a woman, you can do whatever you want. Whereas we would sort of contend that men are called by God to lead, and I think we saw that in this Exodus 34 passage, where God calls all the men to show up three times a year before him, and that's a big deal. He doesn't call, the women are allowed to go, but the men have to go because they're the ones that represent their families and are called to before God to lead their families. So I thought that was sort of a fascinating reality on that that we struggle with. So, whether you are a person that is a person who has a hard time with jealousy or whether you're a person that just sort of gets that. The important thing is to see that God is jealous for us. And the interesting thing too and this might be part of the issue, well, yeah is that Moses asks God. He says please take us for your own possession. Essentially, make me yours, which, depending where you're from, that has some weird connotations but make me yours, I want to be your bride. It's almost like, even though God has already said hey, I promise I'm going to take care of you. I got it. Moses keeps pushing it to make sure that God says it enough times I want to be yours, take us for your inheritance, which could be translated possession. Now I'm going to go.
Speaker 1:I've been reading. You know. Here's what happens when you read books. You start, everything you see is in the frame, the bias of the book I'm reading. So I'm reading Michael Heiser's Unseen Realm of the book I'm reading.
Speaker 1:So I'm reading Michael Heiser's Unseen Realm, and it talks about how the Elohim it's synonymous for God, which is true, but it's also synonymous for the divine counsel. So Yahweh is the Lord, lord, god who is one of the Elohim, but also over all the Elohim. The Elohim would be the divine council, and some of the divine council fell, like when the angels fell that angels, divine beings or whatever, I guess there's different levels of angelic realm and so they fall and a third of the angels go down. And so what God did is he divided the nations up under—or somehow they got divided up. I'm not sure if he did it specifically, but underneath, satan and his demonic powers were given authority over different peoples Correct, and we've seen that through different—you would say like oh, here's the plains, god, and here's the mountain, god. And so what Michael Heiser says is that those aren't just made up things, those are actual demons whom those people served. Okay, which is okay, fine. And so the nations that they were driving out were under the authority of these demonic powers. And so Yahweh was asserting his own kingdom movement to take back or take over or move out the demonic powers.
Speaker 1:You definitely need to read the book. It's fascinating to kind of see it. Anyway, but that's why God is so—he says I'm going to take you for my inheritance, so all of these other gods get the inheritance of their possession of these people. And so now God is establishing his rule again on earth, even after the fall, and then Israel, being its own nation, is part of that, and then eventually the Davidic kingdom or the Davidic king will then finally be seen through Jesus. Jesus reign already, not yet, but eventually he will reign on earth and that'll be all kind of Yahweh's plan, anyway.
Speaker 1:All that to say.
Speaker 1:That's why he drives out these specific deities, but then he warns them don't go after them.
Speaker 1:The whole point of this is for me to show the cosmic realm that I am good and that I'm going to be glorified by my own people. And you can kind of go back to Job to see the divine counsel and Satan coming up and be like what about this? And accusing Job and saying that he's not that good Anyway. So that's where I see that kind of playing in here, and that's way probably deeper than I want to go on a Sunday morning, just because it's pretty complicated Without the backdrop of Michael Heiser's book it would be kind of lost Anyway. So what I saw in there is that God is jealous for his bride and the reason why it's like it's not, like there's no threat the threat of these other demonic gods taking on his covenant bride was real and that's why the Asherah pole and the pillars which I made note that that was probably phallic symbols and an Asherah pole was like a tree stump like a big tree stump, I think, totem pole, but still in the ground or whatever and you carve out a woman's fertility.
Speaker 1:Yeah that's right Like a pregnant girl with big boobs and a pregnant belly, and then you would have your priestess in front of that or somewhere in the vicinity of that asherah pole, you would have sex with her and that would sort of create like this where you know, priming the pump on nature, fertilizing the field, Isn't that wild?
Speaker 2:Sounds like a Disney thing, was it?
Speaker 1:The phalanx.
Speaker 1:Where, like the wind and the trees, blow yeah yeah, so yeah, it's exactly right, and this is why I mean, when you think about it, what else could make men who have seen God do ten plagues part the Red Sea? Manna from nothing, water from a rock, see God's feet on the ground, eat and drink. Behold God. How do you see all that? God talk from a mountain and then go? I'm going to worship something else. Everybody's got a price and for a lot of people in the ancient Near East, sex was that price and that's what drew them away. Because it's, you know, I mean it's your.
Speaker 1:God created you to procreate, and so when it's, it's really enjoyable, and so then, when you make that part of your religious worship service, that's a draw, you know, like if there was like a sex cult that somehow was legalized here, and like, hey, instead of this Sunday at Wells Branch community church, you can go to the sex cult and you are doing your community a favor by blessing the crops or whatever, by having sex with our priestesses and we've got the most beautiful priestesses in all of the land. That's why it was so hard for Israel to resist the temptation. Do you remember Balaam's ass? You know the classic story of the donkey.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think so yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So the story is the Israelites are going through Midian and King Balak is like oh man, we got to kill these guys. So he goes to Balaam, who was a you know, he was an oracle of God type guy, and he goes hey, can you curse them? He's like, nah, I can't curse them because all I can do is bless them. He's like why are you blessing them? Why don't you curse them? And then he's like listen, nothing I can do to bless them. But here's what you can do If you just get your women to seduce these Israelites, they will worship your gods and that will cause God to Right, wants us for his own possession and, honestly, if you're a Christian, you've asked for that.
Speaker 1:You said you know you've asked Jesus into your heart or asked Holy Spirit, take over my life, or I surrender all. Like there is a real surrendering and you're saying I'm yours and so into that void, god moves Um, which is I think this is what we talked about getting into worship styles. People, when they worship, they surrender, like you could have, like the double hand surrender. You could have, the one hand you could have. You know, there's all the different kind of like. Yeah, from your vantage point as a worship leader. What is your, what is, what's probably?
Speaker 2:Dear God, are you enjoying this? Yeah, I'm so miserable?
Speaker 1:Yeah, is it? Mainly people just like folding their arms and sort of staring?
Speaker 2:not all the time. Just some people just do that and just stare and you're like, are you okay? Like are you mad right now? Like you should be pretty happy that like the curse of the law is like broken, yeah, and we have this like redeemer, that came. Like this is a time to be like happy and celebrate, not mope around and be mad. But again, like the majority, think about like the like what does your trip from home to church look like? Yeah, what does? Did you fight on the way to church? Uh, did you? Did you get mad and road rage on the way to church? Do you walk in here just teed off?
Speaker 2:yeah and then. But when you get in here, what does your focus look like?
Speaker 1:what is?
Speaker 2:your, uh, what's your heart like, what is behind your heart? Right now? It's like oh man, I really got to focus in here. I really need to dive in deeper. This is what that looks like, and so it does get kind of like are you, are you happy?
Speaker 1:right now like right here.
Speaker 2:Are you enjoying this? Like is this? Is this okay?
Speaker 1:yeah, you know what's funny? Funny is that when I'm preaching, sometimes I remember this one guy several years ago.
Speaker 1:he was listening and he would comment and he would like critique my sermons and he would look like this His head would be like literally looking up like this, but his eyes would be closed, or at least it would look like they're closed, and he'd have his mouth kind of open and it literally looked like he was passed out and so that was his form of focus and I just don't like that's wow it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2:I think I've told you this before, but there was one time where it was two weeks in a row, I remember, and we had this guy just standing there, arms crossed, just staring, not smiling, not singing, not moving, just staring, not smiling, not singing, not moving, just staring, just dead, stare at you. And you're just going geez, like are you again, like are you okay, like what's going on? And then you're just running stuff through your head. So two weeks in a row. And I remember after the first time I had talked about this to my dad and was like this guy, just I was like you know, you start thinking what am I doing? What am I doing? Is everything okay?
Speaker 2:And then the second time, after that service, he did it again and I was just going geez. But at the end of service, when it was over, he walked up to me and he was like hey, I just need to tell you like I am so blessed by you in worship and what we're doing here that I really can't get enough of it. And he just went on and on and I'm just sitting there like you sure show that in a weird way.
Speaker 1:Why don't you put that on? You tell your face.
Speaker 2:That's great yeah sweet, maybe a smirk or a smile, or just something, but but again, you don't know what people are going through and you can't judge people by their outer appearance, right, because you don't know what their heart looks like and what that looks like behind that. So for me it's like, hey, get up there, you worship and we go through. You know, sometimes people go through the motions, but for me always, like when we talk to um, like worship team, or people ask me I'm like my job for me really is through the week getting things ready and doing all that. Worship for me is like for free.
Speaker 2:You know I do this because I love to worship and that's where my heart is and I just love to do it, period. Yeah, so that part for me is I get to worship with everybody. That's not a job for me, right? This is just me getting to be with the community and and everybody and do something as like a big church family. So again, you never know what someone's going through yeah that. So it's kind of it's kind of hard to like judge, you know yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's change. Go back to the olympics and jordan chile's. So what? What is here's? What's weird? Right, so that she, the americans, actually did it legally with the time frame.
Speaker 2:They showed, right who was the uh, who was the country? It was against romania or something. Yeah, I think it was. Yeah, that might be right, but but again, so they, they that happened. So we got it approved and she got bronze. Then it came back and said that we didn't do it in time. Then the us sent in two different videos that showed that we did do it in time, and we only not only did we do it in time, we did it twice right and then it just came out that romania didn't even protest and they're saying that all three of them should just share the bronze.
Speaker 2:Yeah, romania is like. No, we, we are good, like, we want them all three to just share the bronze so here's what's weird.
Speaker 1:So the the the latest conflict is the Court of Arbitration for Sport that argued that she had to give it back has a conflict of interest because he's a lawyer who has represented Romanian interests for years. So it's kind of like whenever the Soviet Union versus US in 1972, they argued or they said it was for Soviet Union. Well, it was three countries from eastern block, two from the western block, and so well, of course. So, uh, this guy, um, I guess hamid garavi, president of the panel, uh, is currently serving as a legal counsel to romania in disputes, the world bank's international center, so I'm sure that he gets um and probably like hey, like any, like good romanian bank is going to be like hey, for an extra 100 grand or whatever, ruling our.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying yeah, I'm not saying anyone's done this for sure, but like, why would you bite the hand that feeds you, right? So it's just a conflict of interest.
Speaker 2:He needs to be pulled out of there and we need to kind of take another fresh look at this thing, because did you see on there where it did talk about like the romanian, like gymnastics coaches and stuff saying we are not, we didn't push that and right I think all three of them should get that. So again, like you said, it's coming from that higher upper power wherever, whatever or whatever that olympic committee is right that. Had that, the team didn't even have anything to do with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so they're appealing to the Swiss Federal Tribunal, yep, and so this is where you go. This is Jordan, and really the USA. Let's go with the USA, because it's one and the same. They are fiercely protective of their bronze medal and so they are going to fight to keep it. And I think that, again, this gets back to that's your bronze medal.
Speaker 1:It was, in this case, awarded, but let's just say, and this is where it goes to God, god, of course, is going to fight for that which is his, which is why he's not going to let you go to Satan's team without sending the sirens off, and he's going to make sure that you are his. So I just bring that up because I think sometimes we don't understand the hounds of hell and the hounds of heaven and how they are pursuing us as believers in Christ, and I think that's something that we—I think sometimes, in looking at the jealousy of God, that's like the amount of effort the USA is going to to keep this bronze medal. How much more will God go to keep you in his possession when Satan is throwing all of the different darkness things at you?
Speaker 1:and anyway, I think that's an important thing to follow up with yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:And again though, old Co, old Covenant, new Covenant, like here it was do, do, do, right, and then now it's done, done, done. You're wanting so badly to be with God then, and now he's here, yep, so you have every advantage right now to live and thrive and live in the full grace and love and mercy of God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think sometimes we don't look at God as a cheerful, loving husband, and I think the reason why I think you should is he almost is naive in the way that he takes back Israel I'm going to do all these wonderful things for you. It sounds like a codependent, insecure boyfriend who's just really excited that the girlfriend came back. He's like, oh, it's going to be great, it's going to be so great, and then just sort of naive to the fact that his girlfriend's going to cheat on him. But this is different. It's God intentionally making a covenant with Israel, knowing full well that they are going to do a lot of wicked and dark things. In fact, he says in whenever the people say all that you say we will do, he's like, oh, I wish that you had it in your heart to do all that I've called you to, and I love that. He knows what he's getting into. God knew what he was getting into with Israel and the wicked heart, and that was all part of the plan that ultimately leads to Jesus.
Speaker 2:Setting it up. Yep, set it up.
Speaker 1:Yep Set up for Jesus to come and take care of them, but he still has to go through the pain of watching his bride suffer because he can't—like why not just have you be in heaven? Listen, only God knows. But what happens by going this way is we see God's heart for us? He pursues us even in our darkness and so that ultimately we can never say like God, you just love us because we do what you say. No, no, he loves us first, and then we do what he says second, and then we couldn't do what he says. He will ultimately empower us to do what he wants in heaven for forever, but until then we're stuck in our sin and sinful nature.
Speaker 2:I can't imagine, even with your kids, if—and I always kind of look at this as being a father and how much I love my child and if you ever see your kid sad or suffer or especially do something that you say don't right how that feels for you and I can't imagine how god must have felt or does when we just blankly just nah, I'm good, right, you know.
Speaker 2:And just turn away and walk away or make poor decisions and all the above. I mean I can't imagine like the heartbreak that that must have felt like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's exactly. I think that's that's the love of God. So, anyway, I'm I'm just grateful that we have a God that loves us and um is always pursuing us and he is jealous for us, not of us, um. Yeah, any other thoughts on that? I think that does it. Hey, listen, if you've got any questions, would you text us 737-231-0605. We'd love to hear from you and it's okay to critique the semantic range of jealousy. We can talk about it more. But super grateful for all the questions. Keep bringing them in and we will love to talk about whatever your heart desires. We talk faith, culture, everything and everything in between. So, from our house to yours, have an awesome week of worship.