Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Addressing Sexual Assault and Predators
320: Join Pastor Plek for an essential discussion featuring Jordan Smith and Cody Sparks from the Cody Sparks Band as we unpack the intricacies of issues like protection, redemption, and accountability in the context of sexual assault and sexual predators in the congregation. They cover the legal definitions of sexual assault per the Texas penal code and underscore the critical role of mandatory reporters. Expect to gain a thorough understanding of how the church, government, and family must collaborate to protect women and children while ensuring that perpetrators are brought to justice.
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and welcome back to pastor plex podcast. I'm your host, pastor plec, and joining me in studio is none other than mr jordan smith. Jordan, how are you doing?
Speaker 2:I'm doing great, chris.
Speaker 1:It's good to be here I am so pumped that you were here, because we're talking about a subject that's near and dear to the hearts of all human beings. Uh, we're gonna be talking about sexual predators. I wasn't expecting this conversation to be here, but here we are, and also joining us from the Cody Sparks Band. Mr Cody Sparks, hello, all right, so here's the question. We're going to jump right into this because I don't like to kind of beat around the bush.
Speaker 2:All right, we don't need any small talk.
Speaker 1:We're going to get right to this question, and here it is. It says how should the church handle sexual assault and sexual predators within the congregation? When should the police be involved? How do we ensure we are protecting women and children while culprits? And then it ends with a question mark there, which I'm assuming they meant how do we ensure we are protecting women and children while church is going on? All right. So let's break this down and I want to hear first your thoughts.
Speaker 2:Jordan. Well, I'd be curious, like how do you define sexual assault? Like, is that a guy touching a girl's butt, or what's going on here?
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you hear the word sexual assault, what do you think, Cody?
Speaker 3:That's a tough one. Probably something really bad like a rape or yeah one of those issues.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that's what I say too.
Speaker 3:Yeah thinking of sexual assault doesn't make me think of what the definition of sexual assault actually is, which is interesting yeah, um, okay.
Speaker 1:So here is so they. How should the church handle sexual assault? First off, we need to know what sexual assault is. I brought brought up the Texas penal code because I, you know, I don't know if cause I think is it grabbing someone's butt or is it rape? Where is in between those two things?
Speaker 1:And it says the person uh, a sexual assault is occurs. A person commits that offense If the person intentionally or knowingly causes the penetration of the anus or sexual organ of another person by any means without that person's consent. B cause the penetration of the mouth of another person by the sexual organ of the actor without that person's content, or cause the sexual organ of another person without that person's consent to contact or penetrate the mouth, anus or sexual organ of another person, including the actor, or regardless of whether the person knows the age of the child at the time of the offense. The person intentionally or knowingly causes the penetration of the anus or sexual organ of a child by any means, and all that, then, of a child, if you know they're a child at the time or not.
Speaker 3:So penetration.
Speaker 1:Penetration with a sexual organ is sexual assault. So how should the church handle sexual assault? We would say we need the police involved.
Speaker 2:Right, totally.
Speaker 1:Because now this is where I'm not sure if I've ever shared.
Speaker 1:I actually think this came up on the last podcast that we did last week with Holland Gregg, where we talked about God's relationship to the government, God's relationship to the church, God's relationship to the family, and God has a unique relationship with each one of those entities, but those entities all cross over each other in one form or fashion. Obviously, the church should be speaking truth into the government, which is enforcing laws, and the laws that are created are to help the family flourish. And then the church also speaks into the family as well. So here I think, how should the church handle sexual assault? Tell the police If you see anything like this happen.
Speaker 3:You need, I mean yeah, that's pretty bad, though. I mean that is pretty bad. Well, yeah, but that. So sexual assault isn't that's what I mean.
Speaker 1:That's the question how should the church handle sexual? Assault it's horrible. And then sexual predators well, you send them to jail, right? I mean, if someone's committed a sexual assault yeah, there's, yeah see well, I mean, I mean they have to have due trial and all that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's fine, you get your justice.
Speaker 1:But let's go to this question. I think this one comes up and I shouldn't be irritated by this, because I think nobody knows this, but maybe because I hear it so much, I get irritated by it. So please forgive me, and it's this Whenever I go to a, whenever Adrian and I go to counseling or we go to the doctor, the person, I feel like they say this to make themselves feel more important, and I know that's probably not true, but they say you know, listen, there are certain things that I have to report as a mandatory reporter and I'm going to go. So everybody's a mandatory reporter. I don't even have a special credential and I'm a mandatory report. If you see a sexual assault and you don't say something, or you know of it happening and you don't do anything, then that you are failing to be the mandatory um reporter that all the state of Texas is.
Speaker 2:So, like the statute of limitations on that right, like what, if you hear about something that happened a year or two years ago, are you still supposed to report that?
Speaker 1:If you see it, you're a man. If someone tells you like, for example, someone says like I'm going to harm myself, you're a mandatory reporter. And if someone says like, someone.
Speaker 3:I'm going to shoot up the blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:You should, you should, your mandatory, mandatory report right on that somebody is is beating me and sexually attacking me, then you're like oh well, crud, I need to go and report that. That is like. Like, as a, this isn't just for counselors, this is for all people in the state of texas that you, if someone says I'm going to self-harm or I'm being currently harmed, then you need to demand.
Speaker 1:You're a mandatory reporter well, my gosh, I hope you would do that, if this is the definition of that, and you saw that my god, I would hope that you would report that you would be a sad person if you didn't report like harm, like that, right, um, yeah, so anyway, I just, I always, I always like get a little frustrated when I probably shouldn't. I'm not gonna get frustrated, I'm gonna. I'm gonna make sure that that. What do you get frustrated about? If someone doesn't like the person goes. Well, I'm a mandatory reporter, so I have to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're not like required to say that so are we?
Speaker 1:that's my point.
Speaker 2:No, I'm saying required required, as like a doctor, to officially say that because of their profession.
Speaker 1:As a texan, that's how awesome we are right, I don't walk around him.
Speaker 2:A mandatory reporter. What I'm saying is within their profession. Maybe they legally have to say that. Maybe that's it. Maybe I should be irritated, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Just you're right, right because I'm like, like where did that come? Like, why do you have have to tell me? Well, you know, as a mandatory reporter, maybe that's part of their training is that you have to say that.
Speaker 3:Also. So you're aware. So if there's something that you really don't want to say, don't say it.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, okay, all right, maybe I should get off my high horse.
Speaker 3:They're like, hey, fair warning here I it's like everybody in the state of Texas is a mandatory.
Speaker 1:It applies In fact, here's what it says Report that any person suspecting child abuse or neglect must immediately make a report. It applies to all individuals, not just teachers or healthcare professionals. Also covered suspected abuse, neglect or exploitation of elderly persons, persons with disabilities or those receiving services from a certain home and community-based providers.
Speaker 3:So that's the state of Texasxas yeah, well, this definitely puts out. Uh, hey, mind your own business yeah that doesn't exist in certain things, I guess, yeah, it is against the law not to um but then you also but that's another thing like hey, you saw someone beating the heck out of their wife and you report it, and then they could come and then she could say, no, I'm not pressing charges, and no, and then it's dropped. Right now you're a dirtbag, yeah exactly that's where it gets challenging.
Speaker 1:I don't know what you do about that, but that's what the law says that's interesting but again yeah I think here's what's weird. I don't know if you know this um, people have had the cops called on them for sending their nine-year-old to the park to play there's done okay, and this is where your frustration start.
Speaker 3:Like turns to me, where I get frustrated, where it's the dumbest things nowadays that, hey, I left my dog. I don't have a dog, so this isn't about me. I left my dog in the car, running full ac, with the windows down for to run into the store to grab milk and run out. The cops have been called, animal control has been called in there and you're like what in the world? Yeah, in what?
Speaker 1:world. So I guess you know, and I think this is why you have laws for the people who don't like, who don't have social awareness, and so you go the better safe than sorry. Sure, I mean, I agree. If I saw that I'd be like, oh no, worries, right. But if I saw the car off, I went over and looked at it, looked inside, that's a dude.
Speaker 3:Yeah, a hundred percent.
Speaker 1:So I, so I, I guess you just have those people who just are not the Karens of the world. Yeah, well, they just aren't socially aware people. And God you know, they're sweet people, I'm sure, but they don't know how to be socially aware, wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally. But I think, to get back to the question at hand, how does the church handle sexual assault? I would just say the church doesn't right, they give it to the authorities at that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we as mandatory reporters yes since we're mandatory reporters.
Speaker 3:But again, that's like we're talking about. Like a, like a, like a slap on the butt, would you say that was sexual assault.
Speaker 1:Wow I don't know.
Speaker 3:It depends on the intent and that's what I was about to say, so that's not something that you would report yeah because that's something, one that's something you should handle with that person who did that. But if you saw that happen, you, you knowing that person, could be like, hey, are you okay? Was that real like you? Good, right. But again, I guess it depends on the scenario in the situation and knowing like what's going on so something like that should be handled by the church, you would say right what's that?
Speaker 2:like a slap on the butt or something, not literally a sexual assault as defined by the penal code.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, that's where the church would come in. However, let's say, a person feels like that was sexual assault and they're going to run into the problem of they weren't penetrated or whatever. But if they take it to the police, then it becomes a police issue and then the church is moved out until it's decided it's not a church issue or not a police or government issue.
Speaker 2:I mean that could still be considered assault, though, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that could be, so that's assault.
Speaker 3:It would be like physical assault.
Speaker 1:Maybe Assault is intentionally, knowing or recklessly causing bodily injury to another, intentionally or knowingly threatening another with imminent bodily injury, including the person's spouse, or intentionally or knowingly causing physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other regards the contact as offensive or provocative. So there, it's not sexual assault but that could be just straight assault.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're not going to be a petty on that one. So that would be assault.
Speaker 1:And so that's where. Or sexual offense yeah, if that wouldn't be sexual assault, that would just be assault Because that's intentionally, or but it's intentionally, or knowingly caused physical contact with another when the person knows, or should reasonably believe, that the other regard that contact is offensive or provocative. So that's where, okay, someone grabs the butt and then the person then determines that it would be on them. Like, let's say, someone reports that then that person needs to say, hey, that person assaulted me.
Speaker 3:If it's assault, then Well, how do you argue like oh well, I didn't know that you wouldn't like that and I thought we had a thing going on, so I knowingly didn't do that as assault, I just did it to play with you.
Speaker 1:Well, if you really feel like it's assault, then you need to go to the police, because then that solves that. Then you need to go to the police because then that solves that. If you think it's just like a misunderstanding, then the church. This is where it goes from crime to not a crime. Right, it's a crime if the person says this person intentionally or knowingly caused physical contact with me when they should know or reasonably know that I would see that as offensive or provocative. And I think that's the now. The jury at that point would have to say did you know that this would be offensive or provocative? And then the person would have to reasonably argue, Because you could go.
Speaker 3:I walked by and like just accidentally, like hit the butt, I didn't slap it, I just walked by. And actually, who, without a witness? How? Who's that's a? He said, she said, he, he, whatever, one against the other word on word of this is what happened. How do you even right.
Speaker 1:So but let's just say you have a witness, yeah, Well, then you're up creek. Then you have a witness, Then that person and it's assault, and let's say they go hey, did you do that? And they go, yeah, I did that and you like it. Well, then now we've got a crime. If they go, oh crud, I didn't even know I hit you or I'm sorry, Then you don't have a crime and you don't have assault.
Speaker 3:The question is this is where Is that how a person reacts Like the offender?
Speaker 1:So here's the.
Speaker 3:I'm just reading what the law says. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:This is where like, intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other regards the contact as offensive or provocative. So it's assault if you don't want to be touched and you've made that clear, and the person touches okay question.
Speaker 3:So we're dudes and, like we're playing the sport, I don't want my butt touched or slapped. But we all know in sports dudes slap each other on the butts hey, great job hey, good game pop. Well, if I did not want to be touched like that, technically, couldn't I say, hey, I'm gonna call the police because that's salt brother. Yeah, I mean technically, but then you would argue in the trial it would go. Let's talk about your personality.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about your character. Right, have you been known to? Uh, butt slap is that. Are you? Have you been? Known to are you the butt slapper?
Speaker 3:on the team, I mean yeah, and then and then.
Speaker 1:Have people told you before that they didn't like that?
Speaker 3:I'm just thinking outside the box here that the way that you read that and, uh, like things that happen that technically could be something that somebody could yeah, but that's, that's so weird.
Speaker 1:So when it goes to, I think this is the part where, when the person takes it to the government for trial, right it's taken out of the church's hands.
Speaker 1:That's right until that point, though, until it's like said, this is assault, it's in the church's hands, right um. So to the question, though, is asking sexual assault. But we can go down this road, I think it's how should the church handle sexual assault and sexual predators within the congregation? Well, so to sexual assault, like you report. That that's bad, and it's really specific what that sexual assault is Sexual predators. We actually have a policy at our church about this.
Speaker 2:What is how do you define sexual predator?
Speaker 3:Is that like someone who's somebody that was guilty of assault, I think past tense Cause predator.
Speaker 2:sounds more like they're actively praying.
Speaker 3:They already predator, dude.
Speaker 1:Um okay, so here's, what a sex like you know.
Speaker 1:You know what is a sexual predator. It's someone who associates with children. A sexual predator with a particular interest in children may show a preference for associating with grade school, middle school or high school age children. They may have few friendships of their own age or have unusually close friendships with children. They create dependency. The sexual predator may begin manipulating their chosen victim to create dependency and intimacy. In the beginning they may be very attentive, showering the individual with gifts, praise, phone calls and texts. This creates a feeling the victim that the perpetrator has a special bond with them. Okay, the next thing.
Speaker 2:So it's more like grooming and everything associated with that, not just the actions themselves.
Speaker 1:Well, hold on. Using manipulative language, you may notice a potential sexual player. Using manipulative language, they may insult or mock the victim on their behavior, appearance, clothes, friends or other parts of personal life. When challenged of this behavior, they may insult or mock the victim on their behavior, appearance, clothes, friends or other parts of personal life. When challenged of this behavior, they may lie and twist the information, making the victim feel as though they were at fault. So gaslighting, they may repeatedly focus on their own feelings in order to make the victim feel guilty for hurting them or pushing physical and sexual boundaries.
Speaker 1:Sexual predators may push past healthy boundaries. Their behavior may begin with something innocent touches on the back, hand or leg, but it may escalate to inappropriate touching on the thigh, near the genital, on the breast or even fondling the person without consent. If the predator is already in a relationship with the victim, they may cross pre-established boundaries or fail to ask for consent. They may use manipulation to push the person to carry out tasks they are not comfortable with. Or, and then the last one, expressing jealousy and controlling behavior. So all of these that I'm dealing with here are usually dealing with children who don't have the ability to say hey, that, that I didn't like that, but I do think you know, adult to adult, there might be a time when a dude does, does something and the woman feels some sort of way about it, but it's it's really, it's on her like, because if the guy is being a sexual predator that's a problem.
Speaker 2:Um and.
Speaker 1:It's a real issue and you wouldn't want that at your church at all and you wouldn't want that person in leadership. You wouldn't want that, especially around children. I mean, that's where you're like get no.
Speaker 3:Okay, if someone comes in and they are registered, they have to tell you correct.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, yeah, a person that's a registered sex offender legally they're supposed to tell you if they come to church or whatever. Now they don't.
Speaker 3:I think the character of somebody coming in here saying just from the get-go hey, this is who I am, like this happened. That's more impressive than somebody that was registered that would come in and completely ignore it and not say anything at all because no one would know.
Speaker 1:Right Well, there's three types of sex offenders Tier 1, tier 2, Tier 3. Tier 3 is the worst, tier 1 is the least worst and if it's Tier 1, you're only on the registered sex offender list for a certain period of time and we have it as all RSOs registered sex offenders must report in and then be escorted by a pastor, staff, deacon, somebody and not be around children, because we want to obviously protect children because they don't have a voice.
Speaker 3:um, so, yeah, I, I think that that's a big deal, um does each um, each person that comes in and says like I'm a, I'm registered, do you talk to that person and hear each like case, like each story of what happened from each person?
Speaker 1:It's online. So whenever they tell you you go, okay, look it up and it has all the details, sure.
Speaker 3:But I mean, would you if somebody came and told you, hey, would you like want to like have a like full on, kind of like an interview process of a conversation, just to fill that person out?
Speaker 1:yeah, we actually have that exact thing on our registered sex offender policy. I know that everybody wants to read it. Uh, in fact, we have an entire um uh questions that we're required to ask and this is where we would say as a pastor here at wells branch community church, I'm required to ask you these questions. Are you willing to discuss what resulted in you being under RSO status? If yes, express appreciation for the willingness to talk about the difficult subject. If no, affirm their willingness to know their limits, but make clear that we ask they may not attend Wells Branch Community Church events or services until they affirm and submit to this policy, which includes this interview. So we've really done a lot of work here in that.
Speaker 3:So if somebody's a registered sex offender, because that would be such a bummer if somebody was like somewhat innocent and was maybe like peeing by a park or made a bad decision right, doing something dumb, yeah, and I think if there's a, that's why the tears are, tell us. Yeah, the tears are so important you.
Speaker 1:Can, you know, listen, I'm not going to take any chances. Yeah, I'm sure you peed on the playground or whatever during non-school hours and you had to take a leak. I understand what we're going to do is, whenever the six months or whatever, we'll remove you from the list and then you'll go back on to full ability to serve in whatever capacity, because you're now no longer a threat.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but those tears matter because you're now no longer a threat. Yeah, but those tears matter. They do. Oh, they're huge, that's a big deal. That's why it's that makes sense to me and I'm so thankful that there's tears.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, the tier three. Once you're tier three, you're on the list for life. And there's no, you're on there.
Speaker 2:Is there something that prompted Wells Branch making this policy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we had a guy going here that we didn't know, and then we got like a, it was such okay, we got a secret letter and the person wouldn't tell us who it was, and they sent it like a. It was one of those things where they left the letter on my desk and they folded up the RSO's status and then, like, highlighted the name and said this person's at our church and I can't come to this church because this person's here. And I'm like, oh my gosh, the person will. Of course I didn't know how they knew, or whatever, but then we pulled out and we're like, oh gosh, when you go talk to this guy. And then we he was very understanding, he was really gracious with it. Um, he actually built the floor in your office, is he still around.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:Horrible job. Yeah, he's been gone for like five years.
Speaker 2:You said it was required that they tell you and he didn't. So is that a mandatory report status there, or what? Because?
Speaker 1:that's a crime right. Yeah, like you can't do that. So we said hey, listen, you can't.
Speaker 2:But you didn't call their parole officer or anything like that. We didn't know anything back then.
Speaker 1:That's when we were just figuring it out, okay? So at that point, that's where we said, hey, we need to make a policy about this stuff, and so that's what we made. It's on our website now, but it was published in January 13th of 2020.
Speaker 3:It's so crazy how in the church world that there's things that you would never think about would be an issue. And then they become an issue and there is no policy or plan and you're like what is our plan on or policy on this? So you actually have to sit and figure it out and talk it through yeah and yeah it was, that was a yeah, that's tough, yeah, that's really tough because we were like we don't want to.
Speaker 1:Just I know how else these people going to get saved.
Speaker 3:That's where it's hard for the church. If it was just a public entity, hey, see ya Get out of here. This is ridiculous.
Speaker 1:But being the church and being here for the broken, and I think that's why we have policies in place. And the question how do you protect women and children? We protect women and children by making sure that, like in our children's ministry, you don't have anyone alone with a child.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So let's say someone drops their kid off early and there's only one person there We'd say, hey, you can't drop off yet. Unless you're willing to stay here, then obviously it's not dropping them off. Uh, and until another children's ministry worker comes, or something, because we can't have your child alone in a classroom with just one adult.
Speaker 2:Um, and it's our policy that everyone's involved with children get a background check.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, you gotta have a background check and you can't be on tier one, tier two, two or tier three. No tiers, no tier background check and honestly, I think we have it. If you're a convicted felon, you don't get to certain period of time. We had Eddie Franz. Do you remember him? He used to work in our children's ministry, eddie Franz. Yeah he wasn't the children, he wouldn't do it in the classroom, he just did the front desk. Yeah, and that was great.
Speaker 2:Well, you say not for a certain amount of time. What does that mean? Like, eventually, the church gets comfortable with the person Until you know the guy. It's comfortable with the person Until you know the guy.
Speaker 1:Like, let's say it's a felony. I think, like his was a drug felony. So we didn't. We were like, oh, he's clearly beyond this and so, no, he never did. But I would be okay with that. You know, from someone having like something, 15, it'd be like what, 20 years ago now, or something. Yeah, like you're like okay, I think some time has passed, I think we can kind of move on, and you've seen their character.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm saying. Talking to somebody and like being around them and being with them, you get to know someone's true character, right, but really a character is who you are when no one is looking.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, yeah, but I mean, if that's in their past, it's just interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if that's a great pass, it's interesting. Yeah, if that's way in their past, I mean, like man, how long are we going to hold it over somebody? That's correct, you know, getting caught for smoking weed or whatever or doing whatever, yeah, yeah, so, yeah, so I think you know you most. I don't know if we've ever had anybody, um, you know, like want to do children's ministry and then we're like no, oh, it's because you came back as a whatever. And Eddie told us like hey, I can't, I can't serve in children's ministry. You don't, like, I don't want to even get back there. I don't want to cause any issue, but I can do to check in, no problem.
Speaker 2:So he was really great, he's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, yeah, yeah. So our RSO policy is on our website, which that's the way we protect the church.
Speaker 3:And again, though, having security in the front background, checking all of the volunteers.
Speaker 1:And we have a patrol right now that sort of roves the area.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean Knowing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, roves the area. Yeah, just I mean knowing that, yeah, yeah, but I guess what I don't want to create is like this fear that you know, at any moment, your kid's gonna be like messed with right um, dude, and that's unfortunate in the world we live in.
Speaker 1:It could be anywhere and that's so sad, but you want everyone to feel so comfortable I know, and I think the problem is like sexual assaults are less now than they were 30 years ago, but they're way more publicized now because people I mean and you know- well, you can look, you can, you could look people up exactly where they are on your phone and computer and you can stuff all over the place and out of the millions and millions of people there's, there's bound to be something that goes wrong and off.
Speaker 1:Um. So I'm not excusing it. I just don't want us to sort of walk around in fear everywhere we go, because I think teaching your kids stranger danger all the time is not good either.
Speaker 2:So I have two questions. So you said, or this one dude who didn't announce that he was a sex offender, is that the only time we've had someone at the church?
Speaker 1:No, someone did tell me that he was a sex offender, that the only time we've had someone at the church no, someone did tell, tell me that he was a sex offender. And he's like I'm not gonna ever be around the children, I'm just gonna come to service, I'm just gonna leave. And we didn't know about that early on. Like that was back in like 2013, um, and then like, and then he disappeared over a period of time and then when we moved here to this building, he was working at papa john's, which is kind of interesting.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah. So second question now if another one of these registered sex offenders comes to the church, like is this something we need to tell the congregation, like the parents especially. Like hey, this guy was involved in xyz.
Speaker 1:Like I assume most parents would want to know that right. An RSO would be escorted all over the place. Right, so he wouldn't even to the bathroom. That's where it's.
Speaker 2:So you're saying that we wouldn't let people know, correct?
Speaker 1:No, but the only way to let people know is either send out a mass email or stand the guy in the front of the church and be like Law of shame yeah we're going to do the walk of shame, but if an elder or deacon or staff members following that guy around the entire service right Might be able to figure it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Um but, yeah, it sounds like the church has a lot in place to safeguard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I don't, I don't think we could be ever be perfect about it. You it, You're trying to manage protection with grace and we have rules for even it, because some of our associates have their own children. What do you do with that? Well, we address that in our oh yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what if they have kids? Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so they can drop them off. But then they can't go back. They have to drop them off with the front desk person and the front desk person. The front desk person walks them back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's great.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, and you know we want them to be involved in ministry, but they'd have to be involved in the ministry where it would be not around kids. So you'd have to talk to the community group pastor, which in this case is me, uh, talk to the community group pastor, which in this case is me, uh, and I would say, oh well, if you're a man, then you can go to the men's group on Tuesday morning, cause you're not coming around any kids. That works like a perfect spot.
Speaker 2:Yay, yeah, I mean, I think that's the part where we do have a guy who brings his kids to men's group. That's why I say that.
Speaker 1:Oh really, oh fun fact. I mean, I don't know, know they're age six, young, okay.
Speaker 2:Well then we'd say like, hey, this is a men's group, and you'd probably be like probably more your group, right?
Speaker 3:yeah, my group wouldn't work because that's at my house yeah, it's at his house, so he has kids, so it wouldn't work well, yeah, it's like oh well yeah, yeah, so it'd be.
Speaker 1:Like I'd be like, hey, if that ever happened it would be, it would be at the church. I'm like, hey, this is the one for kids. Yeah, so, yeah, all right, so do we answer all the questions on that? I think that it's a pretty fascinating sort of topic. How should the church handle sexual assault Talked about that, and the sexual predators within the congregation? Like, yeah, and nobody knows that they're not called sexual predators, they're called registered sex offenders. But I guess the question would be what if it's a sexual predator within the church? What do you do if you see somebody grooming somebody?
Speaker 3:Man, I think you need to go to leadership.
Speaker 1:Or you go Matthew 18. You go hey man, that's weird yeah or call them out. Yeah, I think what you do is Matthew 18.
Speaker 3:18 you first go to that person.
Speaker 1:You know how do you handle sexual predator.
Speaker 2:So a sexual predator is someone who's trying to make a move on a kid and you go, all right I mean I disagree with this first off, like just going to that guy by himself he can be like, oh, I'm sorry, and then keep doing it and you might not see it.
Speaker 1:I mean, but, I mean, but, but let let, that sounds very dangerous.
Speaker 2:Put it that way. What do you mean Matthew 18? Is you're supposed to approach this person one-on-one, right, like hey, I saw you grooming this kid, you better stop. And he's like, okay, sorry. And then does it somewhere where you can't see it. That sounds very dangerous, right.
Speaker 1:No, Okay, but what else do you do? You don't just. What are you going to do, Like get everybody there for like a aha, I caught you.
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:What do you?
Speaker 2:do Report to police A sting operation.
Speaker 3:I don't know.
Speaker 1:A grooming activity would be like him coming up and saying, like that's where I go back to, what those yeah what is grooming? Well, yeah, if you knew that, then you call the police. But if you, if I think the hard thing is like someone who you don't know, because if the guy hasn't been convicted yet it's still, he's still potentially be doing something what do you do?
Speaker 2:well, I mean, you said that the dude was grooming, so I guess what does that mean?
Speaker 1:so yeah, sexual predator with particular interest may show a preference for associated with grade school, middle school or high school age children. So you go like let's say it's a 50 year old man, he's hanging out with a teenager. You go, hey, a teenager. Let's just say it's a 50 year old man, not involved in the student ministry, no authority to church, but he all, he's always going up to the 15 year old kids and going like, hey guys, what's going on? Um want to hang out later. That's where you'd be like hey want to hang out later.
Speaker 3:That's where you'd be like hey, I mean I, I'd still let leadership know if it were me personally, at the very least, so people are aware. That's where it's tough. Okay, this is where it gets a little bit weird. Like what if there's a guy that was in your church for since, like you were a kid and he was there and you've known him your whole life? He just never got married, never did this, and now he's old, older, and then he's just been around. You have a kid now. Your kid comes around, he talks to your kid or hangs out or it's just around. Where does it get to? Where?
Speaker 1:isn't it's like that's weird.
Speaker 3:You should, but you have that feeling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess the problem is like yeah, let's say somebody's been here for 30 years. You, to your knowledge, they've never done anything weird. Right, they're talking to somebody in the middle of church, you just leave that alone.
Speaker 3:But then if they like, if they start like cornering a kid or like sure you're doing, becoming a close talker yeah, I think I think you would be aware you would know that's what I mean. I think I think you would it would. You would know that's what I mean. I think it would be pretty obvious.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm saying. If it's obvious like that, then I'm definitely going to leadership. I'm not approaching the guy one-on-one.
Speaker 1:I'm going to go on this. Look at that guy right Like hey dude, what's up? Oh, I didn't even notice I was doing that. But then does he know he could be able to explain like hey, I was just telling that kid like, um, if he ever touches my car again, yeah, I'm gonna be here, I'm gonna make sure I tell your parents. Oh, my bad, but you have no idea what he was saying or doing.
Speaker 3:I, I that's how I'm just, but then does that make your relationship with that person weird. If they were being like, then you have to go back again and be like, hey, I'm sorry I didn't mean, yeah, I'd be like I'm just trying, I just know little bobby over there and he's, you know he he's more susceptible. I don't know yeah, I would, always for me, I would.
Speaker 1:I don't mind approaching, but I would also let I think someone else know if they're, if they're pushing sexual boundaries I think the talking in church, I think it's the only thing, but pushing sexual boundaries, like you see them putting their hand on their leg or put their hand on their back.
Speaker 3:Well, it's going to get again. If I saw someone like put their hand on a child's private part, I'm probably not saying anything, I'm probably just swinging. Then I'm going to get under assault, but that's fine.
Speaker 1:It's for the kid, yeah, but I don't think. I think it's just like he puts his hand on the shoulder and it's a little bit too weird.
Speaker 3:So I remember in high school there was this guy gosh, I'm trying to make sure I say this right so it doesn't get out to anyways there's this girl and she had a stepdad and I always got this weird vibe about it like, just, I just thought it was weird and like they she'd be sitting there and he'd like, come on her like rubber shoulders and I was like that's kind of weird.
Speaker 3:Anyways, way later he actually tried bust and move on this person and for me I was like called it, I knew it, what a weirdo freak. Like knew it and the other people were like I can't believe this, this is I never in a millionaire's and I'm just like how did you, how did you not like you didn't think any of that was weird? Well, that was, that's his daughter. I was like technically stepdaughter, but I mean, it's just like you know, you just sometimes, you just know, and sometimes, being at church, you you put blinders on and you're like man, they're at church and we're here. So no, they're not doing that, we're just overlooking or overthinking it. And you have to be really careful in situations and scenarios because you don't really know, I don't know.
Speaker 1:That's hard, it's hard, yeah okay, well, yeah, I think, I think I, yeah, I would go first to the guy. If it was an obvious like crotch grab or something, then I would go to leadership and we'd kind of make a move.
Speaker 2:Well, you said, the dude in your example corners a youth or whatever. I mean is that are you approaching that person? Yeah, I'd go one-on-one with that guy.
Speaker 3:I would, and it's how you approach it. I just don't know what they're talking about. I want to. I'd go one-on-one with that guy. It's how you approach it.
Speaker 1:She's like you good, I want to go find out.
Speaker 3:Do you come into that situation, lighthearted, be like what are y'all talking about? What are we doing over here?
Speaker 1:And then if the kid looks like, he's like help you go hmm, or if the kid's like we're working on our, you know.
Speaker 3:This is my favorite part about your oldest son, because he's a lot like me and our facial expressions are just ridiculous. And Austin would be the one that's like, like, look at you like big eyed, like get the heck away from me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that's a new saying oh, it's great oh gosh, all right, yeah, yeah, what else, what other questions you got? Uh, I mean, I guess y'all as parents like, are you teaching your kids anything about how to identify, avoid, be aware of?
Speaker 1:this sort of thing. Yeah, I think for us early on we've kind of gone through like private parts are private, only person that can touch you there is a doctor and mom and dad, that's I don't even think we've done doctor, because I mean he's only about before yeah but we're like family, like family, and then he's like we had.
Speaker 3:Then we have to be careful about who's family. So we're like mom and dad, lollipop, crazy, right winky, right Winky. You know who's winky? My sister Whitney.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, that's hilarious.
Speaker 3:So that's where it gets kind of weird. And they're in the like you we've talked about this before. They're kids and they're like, especially boys. They're like check this thing out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they love playing with their penis it gets so weird yeah, it's big. Uh, hey, look, it's big now and you're like stop that, stop stop oh, don't do that stop, get everyone out of the bath, everybody out of that, because we bathe all four of them together for the longest time until eventually. I was like stop touching each other. This is ridiculous and they think it's so funny.
Speaker 3:They can't stop laughing and it's hard because even like we're guys and it's, we're just that and it's for us like haha, yeah when we laugh at them and it is kind of funny because we know it's innocent and they laugh and we're kind of being serious like okay, quit doing that. But they think it's so funny.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, that's a tough one but yeah, but whenever they, when they start going to school, I said like if anyone ever touches you you just kick them as hard as you possibly can and you run away and tell somebody um, if you know, we talked about like unwanted touching, unwanted conversation, unwanted anything if it, if it feels weird, run, you know that kind of stuff, yeah, um, and one of the harder things is like you know, don't hit girls.
Speaker 3:That's like the big one you know, we haven't made it that far yet don't hit girls um.
Speaker 1:But now we're uh austin's in in sixth grade and he has his first dance, school dance yeah school dances this friday and so, uh, yeah, this should be an exciting time for him. He's pretty pumped about it and we went over like appropriate touching of like a girl like when you dance with her. I said this is the appropriate sixth grade stance.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1:I always laugh because I was like like it was junior high, like sixth grade and then seventh grade, eighth grade and then slowly it just came in junior and senior and you're just like all right, who cares? And then we said you're gonna got some.
Speaker 3:Some girls might like stick their booty out and like you know, kind of twerk, twerk, absolutely do not go back.
Speaker 1:Do not do, don't just get away from them that's a high possibility that happened what? You want to do is get a circle of your friends the dudes and you guys are going to have like some guy that's going to be doing dance moves where he hits the ground, pops up, hits the ground pops up like 50 times. Everyone's going to laugh. He'll love it. Jump in there.
Speaker 3:It's fun and then you're going to. Would like to be a fly on the wall for that oh it just would be so funny dang.
Speaker 2:Do you think jet will actually do that? Oh yeah, jet.
Speaker 3:Jet will I mean austin oh, I was like jet's gonna be the one in there that says no, dad, I'm gonna take this uh-huh, yeah, jet's gonna go rock, the dance moves he. Yeah, he would be the one that's out there, like he would be the guy you were talking about first. It's on the floor absolutely crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, austin is just would be a wallflower and that's why I love.
Speaker 3:That's why it makes me laugh with austin's personality sometimes, because it's so much like mine, dang first born pks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's just like, and you just sit back and just watch yeah, he's gonna sit there and watch and then he'll probably have a girl ask him a dance and he'll be like, okay, and then he'll, you know I talked about this the other day, my first.
Speaker 3:I went to christian school all the way up until sixth grade and then I went to public and my first dance was in sixth grade and my mom was like absolutely not, like no, you're not going. And all of a sudden I had friends come over and beg and she finally let me go and it it was at the Methodist church basement. Now I talk about it. I'm like mom, how ridiculous is this? We went in there and I was going this. I am so scared right now, like how does this even work? I don't even know how to dance. What are we doing? I never asked a girl to dance one time.
Speaker 3:And I had and there's one girl came up to me and asked me like three different times and, oh gosh, I was so nervous and did the.
Speaker 1:That's how you do it right there, oh man that's fun.
Speaker 3:That is fun. Well, yeah, anywho.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, hey, thanks so much for watching we talk. Faith, culture, everything in between. If you want to ask any questions, you can text us at 737-231-0605. Or go to pastorplekcom. We'd.