Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Challenging Outdated Church Outreach
327: What if your church's approach to outreach is built on outdated assumptions? Join Pastor Plek and Pastor Holland, as they challenge conventional church missiology by exploring the transition from a seeker-sensitive model to what is now being termed "negative world missiology." They dissect a thought-provoking tweet by Josh Howerton that sheds light on how churches are navigating engagement with a culture that's less receptive to Christianity. These pastors reflect on past strategies that leaned towards progressive Christianity and consider the apostolic boldness displayed in Acts 2 as a possible guide for today's cultural landscape.
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And welcome back to Pastor Plek's podcast. I'm your host, Pastor Plek, and joining me from none other than Eastside Community Church is none other than Pastor Holland Gregg. Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much Honored to be here as always every time here on. Pastor Plek's podcast.
Speaker 1:It is pretty much the greatest thing ever for you to be here, and so what I wanted to look up was something that you sent me. It was a pretty amazing text and I'm going to read it for everybody. It actually was just a text to a link, but the link was great and it was from Josh Howerton, who is a pastor up in the Dallas area at Lake Point, and so he's gotten in some trouble for a lot of stuff, but this one was actually non-troublemaking. It was actually one of the coolest things I've read in a long time, so I'm going to read it for everybody because I think it's really cool. This is more a pastor nerd out.
Speaker 2:Yes, special pastor nerd out. Episode we're doing is more pastor nerd out. Yes, so special pastor nerd out, we're doing a special pastor nerd out.
Speaker 1:I just asked two non pastors to join us and I think it was too nerdy for them, so we're going to jump in. It's called negative world missiology, okay, so if you don't understand what that means, this might be a really troubling podcast.
Speaker 2:You're going to explain it right.
Speaker 1:I'm going to try and explain it, but I'll probably ask you to do it because you're way better than me. So he goes extremely insider baseball pastor tweet here. After hundreds of hours of conversations, group texts, closed door cohorts and pastors of thriving churches, there's an exciting sense. A new missiology is taking shape, fitted for what at Aaron Wren has called negative world. All right If rent is correct. That sensor see seeker sensitive, which is what I, you know, if we were to be honest, our church in the past was a seeker sensitive Bible church Like I don't, I wouldn't, you know, I'm like, yeah, we were trying to. Uh, when we well, at least when I got here in 2012, we wanted to be as unoffensive as humanly possible. Okay, and it was a positive world missiology. Meaning I think the positive world missiology meaning I think the positive world missiology is there's a positive spin towards christianity in the world at large. Is that fair?
Speaker 2:yeah, that the surrounding culture is like thanks positively of church and christianity.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's a good thing yeah, then there was a keller cultural engagement strategy, which is the neutral world missiology. All right, so that meant so he was always like for the third way there's, like conservatives, they got it wrong. They're too conservative. Left leaning people, they're too liberal, they got it wrong. But there's a third way of following Jesus and that, as we have seen, um is problematic because, well, it, there's not very many people who are actually going the, the right wing conservative. Um, I guess there are, but I, I feel like he was too. It doesn't fit for the a neutral, we're no longer in a neutral world missiology, it might be the best way to put that yeah okay.
Speaker 1:And then he says based on a million private convos, which I'm kind of thinking is a slight exaggeration because he just went through hundreds of hours of conversations, but maybe that was like a million people for five seconds. Anyway, there you go. Yeah, he suggests nine shifts from a positive world missiology to a negative world missiology. So he goes look, acts 17 was winsomeness, and I think the primary word for the past 25 years has been be winsome. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2:I haven't even been a Christian for that long, but as long as I've been a Christian it's been a big idea. Winsome was the word. That was the word.
Speaker 1:Everyone talks about how they got saved. They always mention some winsome guy who was happy. Fun ball was not offensive and they were drawn to that and it worked.
Speaker 2:More, so not just happy, but appealed more to the intellectual elites of society, of society, you know the, the leaders of institutions and educators, and uh, you know, like winsome being like I can fit in with the kind of elites of society and you know they'll, they'll allow me into their space. I think that was kind of the strategy of winsomeness is like I can rub shoulders with people.
Speaker 2:Let's, let's try to present this third way to where you know, um, the secular world will want to give us a hearing and eventually, maybe we can lead them to Christ, and I think what happened, though, is uh, uh, the eventually we'll lead them to Christ never really happened, and what happened instead was um, a uh, the the church, um winsomeness approach ended up leading toward more progressive Christianity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it did, and so let's talk about this, and I know that usually so back in the day, back in the past 20 years, everybody would quote Acts 17 as a way to evangelize. And even within Acts 17, it said a few people came to Christ, but most people were like nah, what else you got Right? I think that Acts 17,.
Speaker 2:So Mars Hill or the Areopagus and Paul's appeal to the Greeks? That's what you're talking about, right, yeah?
Speaker 1:Okay. So now, yeah, and remember, he goes like hey, and he quotes from their poets and he goes all over the place for that, because in general there's zero like hey, we want to hear what this guy has to say. He's been invited in, he seems smart. He sounds smart, he's given a forum and then people go what's he talking about? He seems to be advocating foreign gods and, like again, most of the people like, dismissed him, but some believed, and then there was. And then he compares it to the Acts 2, apostolic boldness. And so you remember, apostolic 2 boldness is Peter at Pentecost, preaching the streets repent and be baptized. Repent, repent, believe in the Lord Jesus and be baptized, or be baptized in the Lord Jesus, in the name of Jesus. And I think that's wild to kind of see like the apostolic boldness of Peter the 3000 people to be saved. Now, why do? Why do you think that people shifted from the apostolic boldness, even within acts itself?
Speaker 2:yeah, I don't know. See, you know this, the way he worded it here, kind of pits those two against each other, whereas I would go like I think paul really tried to do just whatever the right thing paul, peter, john, the apostles were. They're just, you know, doing what they thought was the best thing to reach the people. And I don't think pa Paul lacked apostolic boldness at all His approach in Acts 17, you know he said that God has appointed a man who's going to judge the world and you know he, he didn't shy away from um hard truths.
Speaker 1:And when he's with Agrippa, when he's with anybody he's, he's always talking about like.
Speaker 2:Paul was bold and he he died for it. You know, um, but I think what happens is some people see one aspect of Paul's ministry and go look in and then try to build an entire philosophy of ministry around that just Acts 17 and not Acts two, you know, whereas we got to take both of those things in tandem. So I don't think there's anything wrong with um being winsome in certain situations, but when you make that the entirety of your philosophy of ministry, then you're going to miss out on some stuff, and I think this is this is what I'm seeing as far as the pendulum swing of our of church culture.
Speaker 1:So tell me if I'm wrong. It's like if anyone's winsome, they're wrong. In fact I've heard a lot of um pastors say like if you're winsome, you've caved to the culture and you're. You know, you're a sucker and you need to boldly preach against sin and it might, that might be the right answer in that context, but it might not be. And I think that's where I think the struggle is, um knowing the right thing. But I do appreciate howerton here of saying there's a shift like the general, it used to be more winsome, less calling out sin, and I think now we're at a place that's more calling out sin.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I don't think it was ever not calling out sin at all. I think it's to me it was a hesitancy to call out certain sins that would get you in trouble with a particular group, so with a, for instance, tim Keller. You know, kind of the third way is him winsomeness guy. Tim Keller did a lot of really wonderful things in his preaching and teaching ministry, but you know, when it comes to okay, find a sermon where he was really bold and clear about homosexuality or abortion or some of these things that tend to be like left leaning People take them as cultural political issues. His strategy was to avoid those things so as not to upset those people and um, rather than just take them head on so I think you and I have been always doing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so too. Um, so it's not really anything new, but maybe it's.
Speaker 2:I think the way it's been worded is new and so that, yeah, there's things where it's like, uh, I mean, I mean I think it is new.
Speaker 1:I tried to be winsome and be like hey, you're in sin, but I don't know Like yeah.
Speaker 2:Does that make sense? The idea of saying like, okay, there's these certain things that we're not going to say, because if we do, that's going to ruffle feathers here and so we're going to be really soft and nuanced and winsome, but these sins are acceptable sins to critique. We can talk about racism.
Speaker 1:When I was sort of like I would put jokes in a sermon. That was winsome. But what you're saying is just not talking about controversial subjects at all. That's the wimsomeness.
Speaker 2:That's what is being critiqued about it. I'd say, like the good thing is being able to be.
Speaker 1:I was like man, I kind of like being winsome. But when I realized, oh, I've been, I've never like shied away from that stuff because I feel very comfortable in the zone of talking about homosexuality. I feel very comfortable in the zone of talking about homosexuality. I feel very comfortable in the zone of talking about men being men and women being women. So I haven't felt that tension. Probably where I didn't know, if I'm honest, how to respond was when critical race theory was kind of coming out and not knowing exactly the right tone to take.
Speaker 2:We'll come back to tone. We'll come back to that, but keep going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I was confused there and I felt like I had to do a lot of reading. I went through and I did read White Fragility. I read Ibram Kendi you know it's Robin DiAngelo and then Ibram Kendi's book, and then I read Votie Bauckham's book on fault lines.
Speaker 2:Fault lines yeah, and.
Speaker 1:I just really I was like, okay, this is. It was really helpful for me to get at least an understanding of what right, wrong, where am I? How do I as a pastor? And it really got back down to anthropology, which my anthropology hadn't. I didn't have to come across race in the past because I don't want to say like I was completely just unaware, but it just wasn't something that came up. And what I think what happened with 2020 is race was elevated to this thing and you, you know, I'd never been called like my existence was racist, and so it made me question, like even like guys like matt chandler, david platt, were kind of going this way of like, um, yeah, very like, you know, uh, racer, racially charged, kind of calling out white people for sucking, and I was not, and I was kind of like man, white people for sucking, and I was not, and I was kind of like man, maybe I do suck.
Speaker 2:You know there was a part of that where I was like I don't you know I didn't.
Speaker 1:I wasn't prepared for that, like I was for the sexuality stuff.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure I think in seminary I was really way more down that road because I in downtown Dallas there's a huge gay population I was forced to interact with and get a lot of my theology straight. But I but I've been around black people and Hispanic people and Asian people. I grew up a little bit in Japan, I was in the army, which is super multi-ethnic, and so race as like a factor of something to judge people by wasn't something that I sort of was really being able to deal with and I kind of had always assumed the colorblind message of you know, we don't judge people on the by the color of their skin but the content of their character was sort of like the way forward. And so when I was confronted by all of this, your whole, you know systemic racism, I wasn't really prepared for that. Anyway, I'm just saying that that's where I didn't know, I think for me just personally not knowing how to be winsome and, um, I think I probably just didn't talk about that stuff in that category cause I wasn't comfortable with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I, I think there's um, uh, a lot of this stuff. You know, from 2020 to today, these last four years, is uh, a lot of pastors got caught off guard. You know, just like, how are we supposed to think about this, talk about this? I didn't learn, you know, uh, about this kind of stuff. In seminary, I learned about the Trinity and the you know, the hypostatic union.
Speaker 1:I learned the you know, but now we're having to deal with things that are and at the time I was dealing with epidemiology, which I didn't even know what that word was before COVID. So I was like I'm not an epidemiologist, here's the decision we're making, Nobody knows. And I, that was really where my focus was, and then the race stuff snuck up on me on the backside and I was getting confronted with a bunch of questions that I wasn't ready for and I had to do a ton of reading to catch up. So now I have a proper anthropology and a proper Imago Dei, a proper understanding of what a solid good like the church should reflect the community, but not at the expense of compromising gospel, compromising the Imago Dei, compromising. You know, each man should answer for his own sin, not for the sin of his father. That kind of stuff was. It, was I had to be, stuff I knew but I had to be reminded of. Yeah, Okay, so anyway, I think that that's really good. So that's the winsomeness to apostolic boldness.
Speaker 1:Then two from left. Here's from like left leaning people, irreligious seekers, and right equals moralistic Pharisees. That's the way the, the past winsomeness world was to. Right is unsaved God fears and left is secular Pharisees. So, um, I think this is what's wild to on the right.
Speaker 1:Unsaved God fears. We have a lot of those at our church, yeah. Do you have a lot of those at your church? Um, no, and what I mean by unsaved God fears, it's usually people have some it's usually Catholic background, they have some church background and they're coming to church because they they are, they're like Lydia, uh, from um, Acts 16. Uh, they're like Lydia from Acts 16 and they are, they're seeking, they want a place of prayer, they want to be comforted. They're like Lydia from Acts 16 and they're seeking, they want a place of prayer, they want to be comforted. They're not ready to move out from living with their boyfriend or girlfriend yet. And so I hammer that, I come with a hard repent and believe to that. But then also he says the left, secular Pharisees. Can you describe what a secular Pharisee is secular?
Speaker 2:Pharisees.
Speaker 2:Can you describe what a secular Pharisee is?
Speaker 2:A Pharisee, you know, having the reputation of being like the elites and the ones who kind of um, bind people's consciences to things, traditions of man, um, but in the Bible, you know, they were the religious, but he's, he's saying that it's the secular um, pharisees, um, meaning the people who are not church people but who have, you know, this um high kind of uh, speak, in a way, you know, of having the moral high ground and of binding people's consciences to that. That if you, you know you have to um, think this way and talk this way and they, just they determine what blasphemy is and that, and determine what blasphemy is and what's okay to say and what's not okay to say, and but it's the secular world doing this. That again is uh, the, the, the winsome route is like, okay, let's try to cozy up next to that and um, then maybe we can win them over, like because it used to be with, like, uh, pharisees, you could agree for the most part on the right law, but wrong tact, in in, in, winning.
Speaker 1:But now with the secular Pharisee, it's completely evil. So it's like, um, men should have the right to be women and women should have the right to be men, like, that's, like you should. If you don't believe that you're a bigot, yeah, um, and we're going bigot, yeah, and we're gonna cancel you and we're gonna cancel you.
Speaker 1:White people are guilty yeah, and, if you like, are not repentant and forever repentant. There's nothing you can do to stop being white, other than be sorry and guilty your entire life. You need to live in the guilt of your systemic racism if you think you ever. If there's ever, it's solved. And the solution to systemic racism is to reverse racism, and so that is like a part and parcel of the secular Pharisee. To kind of put that on. Really white Christian, straight people would be probably the best way to put that. Yeah, so okay, that's secular Phariseeism.
Speaker 1:Okay, so three, is the ripest mission field being on the left to the ripest mission field being on the right? Yes, this is exactly the reason why I love this is I've noticed this, and I think that's because I don't know if we I don't know if we've done anything different or if my preaching style has like drawn God for you. I don't know what I don't want to say. It's me or whatever, but for some reason, um, we have a lot of loss, we have God fears in the congregation and I'm trying to win them. Um, and they're the ripest mission. I would totally agree with that.
Speaker 1:There are people that are voting for Trump. Uh, there are people that are like you know they, their morals, are probably in the absolute gutter, um, and they don't care, but they know something's wrong with culture and they're rebelling against whatever that is. These, they can sense secular Pharisees and Pharisee ism, and they want righteousness and they don't know what it is. And so when you're able to declare truth boldly, I think they respond to it. You're, you're anything you see on that.
Speaker 2:So my my thought on this. You know it's talking about left and right and um, well, when we think about those categories, the right tends to accord more with nature, natural law. So in terms of, let's say, like, um, marriage and sexuality, for instance, um, the left is really intent on pushing. I'm not saying, uh, these are pretty broad categories and I think we can talk about is is major.
Speaker 2:you know, majoring on um is is major, you know, majoring on um, homosexuality, lgbtq stuff, transgenderism, all you know, and uh, and there's people who are like, okay, I'm not a Christian, but I just know that that's not right. Right, I know, you know, there's people who, even they're not Christians, but they go, you can, you can recognize, like how God has made the world to function well, even as a non-Christian, that's what the idea of a God-fear is. Someone going. Okay, I see something of value.
Speaker 2:There's something about this that is like I want to submit my life to, because something in me recognizes this is how things are supposed to be. And so, again, they're very broad categories, but on the right and the more conservative, and stuff tends to be more aligned with nature and natural law. And so I think that right now is our culture moves rapidly left and is really rejecting and subverting natural law, nature, how God has designed things to be. There are people who are going OK, where is some community? That's that's actually, you know, fitting with what I think is more right, according to you know one of the probably just the anecdotal stories of this is, uh, john Milton.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you remember him from when you preached at our men's retreat, but he's like seven feet tall and uh, he, he said for the first time I found it was when I came to your church.
Speaker 1:I found out it was okay for me to be a white, straight man, and he was like it was the most refreshing experience.
Speaker 1:I didn't believe in any of the God stuff yet, but I just was drawn to that and I think that's why we're seeing young men more attracted to the church now than young women.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because the place where young men are being affirmed and saying you are called to lead, you need to rise up, be a man that's a good thing Is in the church, and where it's like, hey, you're a bad person, you need to repent for your manness, and it's toxic, everything about you is evil and the patriarchy is bad, and so anytime you offer leadership, we don't want it. You need to fall in line with the heels, and I think that's where the struggle that we're watching the culture face and we offer, as the church, a hope there. Okay, he goes in and say from a preaching strategy from a church lost people love to attend, which is kind of the classic Andy Stanley ism um, which is it's interesting. That's probably where you'd see, like the North point model is where they've kind of slipped and they went left because it was a church that lost people tend love to attend and then it became they were appealing to the left.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when? When that's, your priority is to again in a positive world, neutral world, where people go hey, church has value in society. If I'm struggling or something like that, you know, a church is a good place to go, where I can find help to. Where a negative world, where people are just like church oh you mean the bigots, you mean the judgmental people, oh you mean the. You know, so we're in a negative world.
Speaker 2:Um, the? A church lost people love to attend kind of makes sense as a practical strategy for reaching people in a positive world or even neutral world. But, um, it doesn't really make sense for negative world, because lost people are like, why would I go to church? I mean, it's just like it's not a, it's not something that people are thinking about. But the. The deeper problem with it is um, you're just building your strategy on how to attract people rather than you know like, um, uh, what is what is the Bible? Say the church is supposed to be? Um, so I think that's an even deeper problem and it could be a problem with everything he's saying here. We could do the exact same thing. You could swing in 20 years. You could swing back and go oh man, let's do away with the seeker sensitive and go to this. And if all you're trying, to do let's go.
Speaker 1:No instruments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if all you're trying to do is just create, okay. Well now, in negative world, how do we attract people? You're doing the same thing as the North Point Andy Stanley did in positive world. So I think these trends are really good to identify and and learn things from, but the answers I think you know really needs to be okay, just what. What is God's word call you to do and be as a?
Speaker 1:church. Yeah, so it goes. A preaching strategy is from a church lost People love to attend. To instruct the wise, correct the foolish, drive out the evil.
Speaker 2:Okay, what I love about that is that's just biblical wisdom. That is what Proverbs and the New Testament epistles, the pastoral epistles, call you to do.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, so it's like it's.
Speaker 2:yeah, I love it too, and and I think drive out the evil is not something that people would have said, you know of like Well and as true.
Speaker 1:So at our, you know, at our church, as you know, we do church discipline, and so driving out evil is hard but necessary. It's part of shepherding a flock. It's part of shepherding a flock, drive out the evil, like we can no longer associate with you as a brother because you are living in unrepentant sin. So anyway, so that's a wild reality.
Speaker 2:Okay yeah, I would say drive out the. You know that's a wild reality. Okay, yeah, I would say drive out the un. You know the unrepentant? Um instruct the wise.
Speaker 1:You also. Well, I think that's purged the evil from among you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, exactly, I'm with you.
Speaker 1:It's the unrepentant Right. Okay, from the next one, from neutrality, avoiding controversial issues, to clarity confronting them. Yeah, all right. So what? Give me some controversial issues that you've had to confront.
Speaker 2:Uh, I mean, I think this is where, like, I feel like you and I both from the beginning, have always just kind of been here of like, okay, let's you know. I back at when we did the Tuesday nights, the well here. I mean, this was um 10 years ago, I think that I did a series on biblical manhood and womanhood and marriage and sexuality and on abortion. Oh yeah, you know, this was. It was like right around the time when the law Oberg fell or whatever it was that legalized same sex marriage, right.
Speaker 2:So I was like cool, let's do a series on sexuality and gender and you know and so like, the reason being like, oh, let's not, it's not about, oh, let's try to be provocative and controversial, it's people are seeing things around them that our culture is saying is right and good, and it's our responsibility to bring truth with patience and love, but with boldness, right, to bring clarity to things that people are confused about. And so those are some of the. I mean, yeah, gender and sexuality is like a big one right now. Abortion is still a big deal. We got you know, uh, with election coming up, there's there's no pro-life candidate necessarily Like, both platforms are non pro-life, they're very like, and so it's just like yeah, we're morally bankrupt.
Speaker 1:Um, and we need. We need political people to get in or Christians to be political, to get involved.
Speaker 2:And pastors who aren't, you know, afraid of oh man. Well, if I speak about this I'm going to lose half my church or whatever. And you know we have to be like. Our role as pastors and preachers is we got to speak the truth, preach the truth Paul says. You know, in season and out of season.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of things that are out of season right now. There's a lot of things that are out of season.
Speaker 2:And uh, yeah, you, you got to think you've.
Speaker 1:You've had to, you've had to do male and female roles at your church, and that that for you, costs you.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, I mean, we, we went through first Timothy, and you know you get to first Timothy, chapter two and three, where he talks about men and women and leadership and elders and preaching and authority and all that stuff and any. And if you start to bring clarity about that, um, there's going to be people who are offended, who leave. We experienced that, Um. But there's other people, though, who are, who are hungry for God's word and who just want to know. I just want to know what's right, I just want to know what's true. Just teach me, you know. And you got to feed those people without being afraid of losing the people that are not going to change their ways 12 years ago.
Speaker 1:I was like you know, I would. When it came up, I would. I would preach submission. When it came to the count me in class, I'd be like we have all male elders, but I would. It would be like something that you were sort of had to apologize for, yeah, as opposed to be like this is exciting, men get to lead our church. This is awesome.
Speaker 1:We call on men to be men and that's a beautiful, great thing, and I think that was like a shift for me that I had to, like me too. I really had to. I don't know what the right word is for it. Um, I think I was. I don't want to say I was, I was buying into toxic masculinity garbage, but I was wanting to be the most uh, bring them in, get them saved. They'll eventually figure it out on their own that men should be leading and women, uh, should be following, like I. I thought that that was like you know, I didn't need to necessarily say that once they really got saved and what I learned is that man, it's instruct the wise, correct the and purge or drive out the evil man. I can feel the weight of that.
Speaker 2:I think this issue is one that people don't really know. You get to something, okay, why not? Women, elders and a lot of pastors, I think, are just like I don't know, because that's what it says in 1 Timothy, 2 or something. Instead of having a really robust theology of God's design for male and female, from Genesis to revelation and so without that, you do kind of say like, hey guys, I don't know, this is what God's word says and so we're going to fan of it.
Speaker 1:But listen, I'm just doing what it says.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, which is okay, you're being obedient, but you know that's not very helpful to people who are really wondering. So I feel like I know why.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that that's the part where um as pastors, I think, man, and I think this is where, again, seminary is important. But it's important for seminary to to address these issues. It's important for local churches to address these.
Speaker 2:Well, what I mean is like anthropology yeah, because that's the issue of the day. What is right?
Speaker 1:it's who knew anthropology would be so relevant. Why is? And it's not just anthropology of like studying human fossils, but we're talking about anthropology studied in god's word, and so when you look at the history of god's word, you know the all. You see men, leaders, and whenever women rise up to lead it, it's in fact Deborah. Judges what? Four, yeah, five. You have Deborah who. She's the leader of Israel in a time when everyone did what was right in their own eye and there was no king in Israel and and even with her.
Speaker 2:She did not. She was different than all the other judges and that she was not a military leader, right, she encouraged barack to be the one to lead um the people in battle. And she's actually not called a judge. Says that she was judging, but she's called a prophetess. That's right. And uh, she says a mother in israel, yeah, and so she. I I think she actually even is is trying to avoid appearing like I'm taking on something that's not right for me to do and she's saying Barack, this is your job. I'm a mother in Israel. I'm a prophetess? Yeah, I'm. I am encouraging and helping. What does a mother do? Raises up, you know, children to do things for the glory of God. And she was.
Speaker 1:Hey, I'm not going to go fight this battle unless you come with me. Yeah, you got to be like. Imagine that, Mom. Isn't this our culture? Though? Mom, I need you to come with me to work.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I mean. So I've been reading this book it's a liberal book by the Dean of Stanford and talk about how to raise adults. And so this Dean of Stanford has parents coming with their grad student to help them figure out how to navigate class, how to navigate, and they're arguing with the professors about grades. And the kid I mean that to me says, oh my gosh, we have over parented and we have created a culture where our kids are not being pushed out to go and be their own person. Anyway, I think I see a lot of that, especially with men. Men have, they're still living at home when they're 30. Men are, haven't. There is no springboard for them to be an adult in the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And if you, if you don't what it says, confront controversial issues, if you don't institutionalize sound doctrine, you will just get pulled along in the stream of culture.
Speaker 1:I think you're hitting something that's really powerful and it needs to be something that we do more, and maybe this is a conversation for this time, but man Jesus did this so well, though.
Speaker 2:I mean, when you talk about Jesus, he was so compassionate, he was so kind, he was so, but he would regularly say things that the result would be people would stop following him. You know, like he had.
Speaker 1:Hey, do you guys want to leave too? You have the words of eternal life. Where else are we going to go? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:The rich young ruler too. You know Jesus knew exactly what the point was, that he was like. Here's what you will need to do to really be a follower of me Go sell all your things. He said exactly, you know, identified, pinpointed that guy's idol to where the guy walked away sad. And that was not Jesus being.
Speaker 1:I think that's really powerful. Holland, yeah, it is. And I think that is discipleship. It's identifying individual people's idol, functional savior, and you're not a jerk about it, but you hold the line and you go listen until you repent of that. You're not following Jesus, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So you're not following Jesus? Yeah, okay. And so I mean, we've done this at our church and people have walked away. Sometimes it's painful and it is tempting to be like man. Do you really got to you? Look at the passage that's coming up for your next sermon. You're like man. Do I really got to say this again? I already know. You know here's who's going to leave.
Speaker 2:When you hold the line, some people will walk away, but other people will step over that line and it'll God will work in their life in such a powerful way. You know that like it's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's good, all right, Organizational, I'm sorry, from purpose driven church, which is kind of reference to um Rick Warren, rick Warren's book, to presence driven church, and then he puts in parentheses charismatic but not charismatic. I don't have a whole lot of thoughts on this one I do.
Speaker 1:Uh, we are. I'm witnessing more demonstrations of the spirit's power and I don't want to again. I'm very we haven't had anybody speak in tongues and have an interpretation yet. However, we've had healings Like we've had. Uh, the elders are activating their spiritual and authority, which has a little bit of a mystical aspect to it. Where we went to the hospital, prayed over a boy who was having seizures and, you know, through God's providence, healed that boy. He doesn't have seizures. The doctors can't figure out what's wrong, which can be sometimes even scarier, but, um, we had one guy who came here in a wheelchair every week and then walked out of here one day. I mean, we've had, like all of those bizarre experiences that I feel like is more.
Speaker 1:I had one I have to tell you about this story, about this lady in the back. She, I'm preaching, about men leading and women following her. She stands up to to to argue with me and she opens her mouth and nothing comes out and I and I and I'm oblivious to it, I'm just preaching and uh, sam typhier, our men's deacon, was watching and he brought another guy and they're all, like you know, trying to figure out what they should do and I'm giving the message and like they go uh, hey, she needs to come to talk to you. And I'm like, okay, I have no idea any of this happened. And she just looks at me, she goes jesus is lord. And I go I well, is there anything you want to say? Well, I know, I know Jesus is Lord. And I'm like it was like the weirdest. It was like it was like, and then like so she. And then I go is there anything? And she goes it was like she was could not speak. And she goes Jesus is Lord.
Speaker 1:And then like, uh, the next day she called cause she left her jacket here. And she goes hey, this is a Henrietta. I was wondering if I can come by. That's not a real name. Can I come and get my jacket? I'm like, yeah, no problem. And and like she came and got it and like was completely a different person. It was wild, wow. So I I think there is more presence of God, you know? I mean, do you still have the people bawling their eyes out when they come? Because they are like I think it's the God fears on the right. They come and they're so mesmerized by the spirit of God and there's great power there that's blowing their mind, um, and so they fall out and they sometimes they go out on the deck and just like, um, sob, anyway, I'm. I'm seeing more demonstration of the spirit Okay, nice, uh, how about this organizational leadership? From peacetime leadership to wartime leadership? You have to build a mob-resistant church, which is actually pretty fun. What do you think he means by that?
Speaker 2:So I think he means, I think it's related to what is her name, allie Beth Stuckey's toxic empathy book that's coming out of. Basically, there's been another book. I think Joe Rigney came out with a book that was similar, um, but the idea is that like how um, I think the subtitle was something like how progressive progressives exploit Christian compassion, um, and so it's that idea of like it to be mob resistant is like you're going against the grain and culture and if you are, if there's anything in you that's just like oh man, I don't want to hurt, I don't want to offend people, I don't want to this, I don't want to that you can easily be just that can that compassion or that fear of man either way can be exploited into silencing you about truth. That needs to be preached.
Speaker 1:One of the books that came out a couple of years ago that I railed against was Rachel Hollis, before she got divorced. You know, she said, girl, wash your face, oh yeah, and I ripped that book and talked about how it's, you know, moral, therapeutic, deism, and like I had a girl come to me in tears about how that book changed her life, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I was like, and I felt bad, but I was like, no, but seriously, what it's telling you is that you're enough and you're not. Yeah, and so we, I, you know Jesus is the answer, not you bucking it up bucko, um, that's an old mindset that's dark and wicked. Anyway, um, but yeah, I've, definitely. But I feel like that was the progressive Christian, like the Jen hat makers, yeah, yeah, um, that are progressive Christianity. Where you're? You just go so far off the deep end that there's no coming back. Okay, um, how about this? From kind of feminine vibes to get the men and build the families, which I am loving that? How do you make your church more manly?
Speaker 2:It's a good question, um, I think it's just an interesting topic period of the idea that there are certain ways of doing things and certain approaches to ministries, from how you gather to how you do announcements, to what songs you pick, and you know all the stuff that will appeal more or less to men or women, women, and you know, the idea he's saying here is that apparently, you know, in the past 20 years or so, we've really tried to appeal to women I guess is what he's saying with more feminine vibes, and I think if you listen to a lot of the popular worship music, you really see that it is very it's. It sounds similar to like is that a Taylor Swift song or is that a worship song? And um, and, whereas you know, if it's, it's not like. When you're like, okay, how do you want to rally men together? You know it's not like.
Speaker 2:Um, uh, pub songs and chain. You know those kinds of like, let's change Fortresses are God? Um, so you know, there there's a difference in songs and so maybe that might be one aspect of it as well as just like your messaging we even talked about this earlier where, you know, talking about slogans for a church is like, um, uh, you know, find your rest, find your rest here. That might be that might really appear appeal to. I think that's more appealing to women. A girl, yeah, um guys. Guys are just like I want to build something. You know, call me to a mission, call me to something yeah.
Speaker 2:Kick Satan's rear, there you go. Um, so there there are. I think what he's saying here is, if there's going to be any kind of future for the church, we have to get men who are passionate about building um, who are, you know, ready to serve, who are humble and not like you know. There's a healthy masculinity of like, um, yeah, builders, uh, fighters, men who are humble and caring and kind and compassionate, but also willing to be bold and courageous and speak the truth. You got to be able to reach those men or else your church has no future.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. How about this one Social media mindset from avoid self-promotion to compete in the digital Areopagus?
Speaker 2:What do you think about that one?
Speaker 1:What do you think about that one? Yeah, I think this one is good in the sense that I was never like. I always felt like personalities. Paul was a personality, peter was a personality Like people fall, like you. Actually, you literally had in Corinth people who followed personalities. Not that that was the most healthy thing. You want to ultimately follow Jesus, but, and even paul's, like the people that were overly spiritual, said I just follow jesus. Yeah, um, he's like stop all the division and what, what? Let's, let's honor paul, let's honor peter, let's honor um apollos for what they bring to the table, because they're all conveying the right messaging. And I think, I do think that we, in the past I at least I, at least I have I've been like I didn't, I couldn't word things well enough to to I feel like man, I think you do a great job where you crush it Um, where I could be um bold and not like disparaging or unkind, but be bold promoting God, uh, christ-centered messaging. I think that's super important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think of, when I think of you know, what does he call it? The digital Areopagus. It's the idea that you know, paul. It says, you know he would go and he would reason in the synagogues, you know, for three Sabbaths or something like that, and then he would be in the marketplace, you know, and so he was out in the public square, as the idea. And then the Areopagus hey, here's where the great minds get together and and debate and philosophize and stuff.
Speaker 2:And so where does that happen today? Uh, largely online. Um, it's, you know, in a, in a digital realm, with videos and tweets and posts and all this stuff. And so, understanding that people are getting their um, uh, getting influenced by teaching that is out there. And if, if we're saying, oh, I don't want to get involved because I don't want to promote myself, and all that, what we're allowing is for this um, uh environment to be completely dominated by false teaching. Right, and so it.
Speaker 2:You know, someone's got to get in there and push back against the false teaching and bring clarity. And so, and you know, fight and debate, in a sense, for the truth and promote, you know, confront, destroy every argument raised against the knowledge of God. You know is what Paul says. So there's a battleground there. You know what people refer to as like the culture war. Right About, this is what's right, this is what's good, here's how society should be shaped. And so I think he's saying here is we've got to get in the fight if, um, if we want to, um, really influence our culture. Okay.
Speaker 1:So he got some pushback. Um, uh, this is what I thought was interesting. This guy named Michael Barley not sure who he is, so it looks like a strategy will accelerate the marginalization of the church. And then Josh Howard. I love when Josh actually responds to people. He's like I mean, we've grown from 12,000 to 24,000 in about five years. So, and then Michael, yeah, but that's not how many baptisms you've had. Your, uh, your post original post was about missions. People joining from other churches don't count as missions. It's an important difference. And then Howerton's like we baptize over 2000 people per year right now. Imagine baptizing 2000 people in a year. Yeah, like that. Okay, granted, it's not quite day of Pentecost, but it's up there. Um, when you have to. You know we divide that by 52 Sundays. What is that? 40 people a Sunday. I mean, that's crazy. Pretty big deal. Yeah, uh, okay, that's great. Be interested to see your baptisms. Resident membership members over the past 10 years. Be sure to omit any rebapt. Anyway, I just thought you can get in the weeds.
Speaker 2:Reality is like, I think, what to me? You have to go, um, it can't just be practical and useful, it has to actually be righteous, right, um, and so you could have a church that has 20,000 baptisms because they compromised on theology and have drawn lots of people in, you know, with their compromise and their false teachers or their uh, poor teachers. You know so. You know, you, that that's not um, that metric alone isn't enough, and it's wonderful to hear that. You know, you, that that's not um, that metric alone isn't enough, and it's wonderful to hear that you know that God's doing that work. But you also have to go. Okay, just because a bunch of people are joining the church and getting baptized doesn't necessarily mean that this is the right approach.
Speaker 1:Yeah, does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, right. We don't take experience and say, see, look, that must be right. We got to go experience and say, see, look, that must be right. We gotta go. God's word, um, god's word, god's people and god's spirit, there you go. Triple vandygrim, yeah, uh, yeah. So I, I really appreciate that post and I do think what I told adrian is that our culture is going to shift right where we're going to have to be winsome again, like primarily, um, and it's because it's going to be the frustration where the punching up won't be against the culture, but but it'll be against the church. And I think that I it was actually I don't know if it was more fun during that time, but it kind of was like you know, you were like on the, you were the good guys.
Speaker 1:Like you know, you're, on the one hand, you're like, you're with the common man and on the other hand, you, you, you want the same things as the religious elites. Now, everyone hates you. Now everyone hates you.
Speaker 1:And that's hard and it can feel lonely, but I do feel like he wrote on here he's thinking about having a secret pastor invite only or pastor invite only conference to talk about all that stuff, and I'd be like I'm there, let's go. Yeah, all right. Hey, thanks for watching. Any other thoughts that you got there? Holland? That's it. Yeah, hey, thanks for watching. We'd love to hear from you. Text us in at 737-231-0605. We would love to hear your opinions on how Christianity is really staying the course and the culture is shifting and we are leaning into that and I'm excited for it. Thanks for watching. Have an awesome week of worship.