Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Balancing Faith and Politics
331: Can political affiliations coexist with biblical teachings in today's divisive climate? Join Pastor Plek and Pastor Holland for a profound exploration with guest Christine Lee. Holland and Christine share their transformative journeys as foster-to-adopt parents and their ministry. Their experiences segue into a compelling discussion about Christian political engagement and the complexities of aligning faith with political parties, especially when controversial figures like Donald Trump are involved. Christine's insightful questions challenge us to consider how Christians can uphold justice, mercy, and compassion in both their faith and political spheres.
Got questions? Text us at 737-231-0605!
Like, share, and subscribe! We love seeing and responding to your reviews and comments.
Support the show: https://wbcc.churchcenter.com/giving
And welcome back to Pastor Plek's podcast. I'm your host, pastor Plek, and joining me once again is none other than the lead pastor from Eastside Community Church, none other than Holland Gregg Hello everyone. And then also a member of Wells Branch Community Church, someone we're really, really, really proud of a short-time listener, but a first-time guest, is none other than Christine Lee. Hello, hey, christine. How are you?
Speaker 2:I'm good.
Speaker 1:Hey, one of the things that you guys have in common which I don't know. If everybody knows this, you guys are what's the right way to put this?
Speaker 3:Foster to adopt parents. So okay, I mean I don't know if we want to go there. I wouldn't quite put it like that, because the goal of foster care is reunification. And so you're never fostering to adopt necessarily, but sometimes fostering gives way to and results in adoption. And so we fostered and it ended in adoption and we love our adopted kiddos. That's what I would say. Is that what you say?
Speaker 2:I would also agree that. I mean, I do think that there are some foster parents who are in it because they want to adopt. We were not Um, and so we just said that we would adopt when we were ready to close our doors to fostering. Oh wow.
Speaker 1:Well, that well, it's such a unique and incredible ministry, and one that I would hope more Christians would be involved in, because it's such a, it's such a powerful thing, and I just really want to honor you guys for that.
Speaker 3:So we fostered and adopted and praise the Lord, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so way to go, it is a, it's a unique calling, so way to go. So that's what some of the things that you guys share in common. I do have a question that Christine sent in and it's since today, if you don't know, since we're live, this is like, this is the day of the vote. So if you're listening to this on the, you know when the podcast come out, comes out. It'll probably be like next week, whatever, but as we're recording live and we're on, uh, facebook and youtube and you're everyone watching, uh, this is the day of the big vote, and so, if you haven't decided who you're going to vote for, you have still time to go and vote. And this question, which came in, uh, I think last week or so, I was like it was so good, I was like, man, I'm going to get the author of this question to come on. And then I saw Christina church that, christine, would you be willing to come on and share this question with us? And she said she would. So I'm going to read the question. Is that okay? Yep, and then we're going to talk about it. Um, cause, I really appreciated where you came from. Uh, it says this, says this I appreciate the willingness to engage in the topic of biblical insights for political engagement, which was really cool, and in general, willingness to engage in controversial topics.
Speaker 1:On the podcast, I thought there was a lot of wisdom and a lot of good insights and points made that were linked to scripture. I think there's policy that was talked about and there's also rhetoric that wasn't talked so much about. That can be really damaging and I would say the Republican policies align more with biblical teachings and I feel the podcast episode was very right-leaning because of that. Democrats are the ones who champion dignity of all people, particularly those who are easily hated, oppressed or marginalized, which I would argue is more aligned with biblical teachings. Pastor Holland mentioned voting in a way to live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness, first Timothy two, which was really cool. But who are you thinking about when you think about living peaceful and quiet lives yourselves as white males? There has been such demonization and degradation of lots of people groups with Trump. He has a history of sexual misconduct. He has a history of sexual misconduct. He villainized Chinese people and led to an increase in Asian hate and violence and has contributed to a lot of other mentality with the border walls and fear-mongering about immigrants, to name just a few. Pastor Platt mentioned that churches have become more right-leaning because of the pandemic, but that might not be the only reason why.
Speaker 1:I think speaking from a position of authority and only or mainly upholding one side is not wise, especially as you say that neither side is operating under the direction of God. Well, I think it's easy to jump onto a certain political side. I think, as Christians, we need to both call out and uphold ideology on both sides that align, don't align, with the Bible, and not omit or turn a blind eye to things that don't align with the side we're on. Otherwise, we risk upholding a political party and not the Bible. God is both just and merciful, and each political party leans more toward one side or one side, so neither party gets it all right.
Speaker 1:So where would character and attitude come into voting, which today is voting day? For instance, care and compassion for the helpless? I would hope that my leaders are caring people, not just the ones, not just ones that punish, or is that not the role of the government, since they are the sword and the church should fill that role, meaning caring for people, which I really appreciate? This question, I really think you thought a lot about it. You really have obviously been thinking a lot about this, and it's one that I think that I think one that a lot of people ask. I think there's a lot of Christians who look at some of the things that Donald Trump said and they go. I just can't go there with that guy, and I can appreciate that, but I'm not sure where we really want to start with this whole conversation, because I think there's a lot, a lot here, so why don't we go?
Speaker 1:I kind of want to go to the first question that you that you brought up. Um, you asked pastor holland hey, you said living a peaceful and quiet life, quiet life and all godless holiness. Going first, timothy, too, but who are you thinking about when you you're thinking about living peaceful and quiet lives? You yourselves, as white males? That's the question. So, so, let's go there first, and then, within that, I want you to bring up some of the Asian hate that you've maybe received or have seen or been a part of as we go into that question. Fair, so, holland, when you think about godliness and holiness, who are you thinking about when you're thinking about that?
Speaker 3:Well, godliness and holiness is something that Christians care about and non-Christians don't care about.
Speaker 1:Right, that's good.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, that basic position that I'm saying is essentially vote according to what we're instructed to pray for in 1 Timothy 2. We're instructed to pray for being able to live peaceful, quiet lives, and so I think Paul has in mind Christians there in particular. Being able to live free from persecution, able to raise their families according to God's word, able to participate in church, preach the gospel, gather for worship. To be able to do those things in peace is obviously ideal. It was not the case for the place and generation that Paul was writing to, and Christians in that day. They did not have that, but he said to pray for that. It would be better for Christians to not get their heads chopped off and be crucified or burned at the stake.
Speaker 1:It would be better for the culture and society if Christians were able to flourish.
Speaker 3:It would be exactly so that gets into. I think he had Christians in mind there. But ultimately, laws that reflect God's truth, a biblical vision of truth and justice, are better for everyone, christians and non-Christians alike. So I'm not thinking primarily of me as a white male. Thinking primarily of me as a white male, um, I'm not thinking primarily of any um ethnicity or, um, you know, sub subgroup. Um, when I say that I think that it's better for everyone to have laws and leaders that are closer to um biblical vision of truth and justice. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Cause I think you would, as you're a born-again believer, loves jesus, and I think when you hear that, you're like, yeah, but give me the the butt side of that. Or like because, because the part you brought up uh was um, there have been such demonization and degradation of lots of people with trump. Uh, sexual history of sexual misconduct, villainized chinese people has led to an increase in asian hate and violence. Talk, speak into that just for a second. Uh, as we're talking about you know voting and all of that, because you know peaceful and quiet lives for some is uh, it seems like you would say voting for Trump might be, might bring you a non-peaceful and non-quiet life, based on some of the rhetoric.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think, um, when I hear, um, about the way that he talks about people, um, that are not from this country, um, and it stirs up feelings in other people where we are other, um, and we are to be feared, um, or hated for different reasons. And I think it's hard to not see from your own perspective of like, well, I, I didn't feel as safe, you know, and like, if the road keeps on going down the same direction, um, for instance, if you were to have another term, how could that increase and where could it go from there? And thinking about my own experience and what that would look like in terms of my own peaceful life, right, oh, that's good.
Speaker 1:I think that's good. What, what that? That? That? I think that's a very valid point. I think Donald Trump has said some things like the most recent thing I can think of, that just did a facepalm over, was Taylor Swift came out and said she's voting for Kamala and then Donald Trump goes. I hate Taylor Swift and I'm just like why, why did you have to do that? Because that was just. I mean, that to me did nothing but stir up division. So, yeah, I think you can make a case for that for sure, and I think that, to me, is very. I think we need to call out Donald Trump for some of the stuff that the rhetoric that he does say that is so ridiculous. Give me. Do you remember anything he said specifically about just people? Is it the Chinese descent or just China in general?
Speaker 2:I don't remember anything in particular. I don't remember anything in particular. I just remember the blaming of the coronavirus coming over here.
Speaker 1:I think he called it the Chinese virus. Yeah, that was the thing. I think he his primary, I guess sticking it to China, and it might've been because he knew it was. I don't know if he knew it was produced in a wuhan uh lab, you know, because at first it was like it was, you know, in a the wet market, and then later we found out it was actually a leak from a lab which and then I think we found out, we funded the lab, which is even more wild.
Speaker 1:Um, so, yeah, I think there's there, definitely I think it was, uh, it had, like, he referred to it as chinese or kung flu, which is just why, why would you do that? So, yeah, I can see how that that sort of rhetoric would cause you to pause. Uh, with somebody like him, would you say, though, that um his policies, and not to say, like, what his words meant, because you're right, I think the words matter, and so, when, when someone talks like that, I think you're now judging between um words that someone says and then think policies that are enacted, and so, for you, you felt less safe because of the um words that he was saying.
Speaker 2:That made people be more like anti-Asian yeah, and I wouldn't say that my feeling of not safe was like hugely raised. Um, it just points to a lot of different things that I am seeing and hearing that are along the same lines. So, for instance, like talking about, uh, people who are eating the pets of other people, you know, like dehumanizing people in different ways, or certain groups, right, um, it's, it's, it's that sort of stuff that makes me feel really uncomfortable about that being our leader.
Speaker 1:Right. So would you feel that way about like when you know, when they made that comment about Puerto Rico being an Island of garbage, and you know about the Puerto Rican garbage problem, you're familiar like. So there is an actual like, uh, I don't have epidemics, right, where it's not global but it's in in puerto rico there is. It's overflowing with literal landfills are overflowing, and so that's what the comedian was referencing. But then, uh, I think biden, whoever said the only one that's garbage are the followers of Donald Trump. And so now you've got that like or deplorables or the unredeemable, as Hillary Clinton put it back in the day. So I think you have that sort of rhetoric on both sides, which is not helpful.
Speaker 1:I agree, and they were not Nazis but they're not Christian, right?
Speaker 1:I think that's the part that I think is like Donald Trump could hold a Bible all day long and take pictures of the Bible, but I don't know if that makes him a Christian. In fact, I'd say that doesn't make you a Christian just holding a Bible. There has to be a genuine repentant heart and genuine faith and from what I've seen, I think he's had some really cool life and near death experiences which you would think would really challenge a person's faith. I don't, I don't, I haven't seen. You know I'm not his personal fruit inspector, but I haven't seen a ton of that.
Speaker 1:But I think what I, when I look at from my perspective, when I look at the rhetoric, I think on both sides there's a lot of those are the bad people over there. You know those, those people you know I think that's great and I think that's been. I don't want to say that's just started, because I've read newspapers from the 1800s. I mean they lambasted each other. I mean the cartoons that they drew of each other was like way worse than snl like you know, I mean like as much as we could, you know, kind of put out there that we mock and make fun of politicians.
Speaker 1:I mean, they were brutal back then, so I don't think that language has changed and I'm not. Wouldn't it be great if you had a like Mike Pence? I don't think ever said anything that I would be like like cringing by Right, like I thought he was a genuine believer, love God, um, and he would. You know, he didn't always agree with Trump, um, and so I. I would love it if guys like that would be in politics. But there's probably a reason, um, why you're not seeing a ton of like Jesus followers rising to the top. Uh, maybe it was because they're their hearts are too. I don't know. I don't want to say righteous, but I do feel like there's a sense of why don't we? I don't know, maybe it's a question why don't we have more Christians running for public office?
Speaker 3:I think that is largely due to improper the idea of separation of church and state and improper biblical teaching and a failure to kind of recover what the reform tradition has taught about, um, christianity and civil realm. Um, that, uh, I think is a problem that today, like I would say, today we don't, uh, we don't have ideal candidates at all. Um, like you know, and and what you, the question you had had written right Saying that, uh, on the, and what you, the question you had had written right Saying that, on the last podcast it sounded like we were kind of right leaning on some things. I don't remember exactly what we talked about.
Speaker 3:I don't think we ever mentioned any particular candidate or anything but maybe some of the issues we brought up seemed more like adjacent to, but like that's actually true.
Speaker 1:We didn't vote for anybody or say for vote for anybody.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think we're just talking about politics and government in general according to the Bible. But, like I would say, just so you're aware as well, like I have major problems with both candidates and both platforms, both policies. My opinion, well, my opinion, doesn't matter what scripture teaches.
Speaker 3:What scripture teaches is that, uh, civil rulers are god's servants and that they ought to administer um justice according to god's standards. So, god's servants by god's standards, and I don't think either um candidate um really has that as a priority and um, I think I would say you know you're saying the rhetoric of trunk trump is like uh makes you feel like unsafe about certain things. I agree with chris that it's on both sides there's very much. You know name not not in the exact same way, but name calling harm.
Speaker 3:I think the language we use matters. It creates problems when we use language that doesn't reflect what the Bible teaches is right and good. For instance, you know Kamala talking about reproductive freedom is language that you know. I don't think is safe language for people to think of. You know she's very passionate about mothers having the right to murder their children in the womb and then using um euphemistic language like reproductive justice or reproductive freedom, I think is language rhetoric that's very harmful. Um and I don't know I think Trump's position on this, he's um is not biblical either. Right.
Speaker 1:He's still, you know, is um he's I mean his his view is it should be the state's decision, uh, which is a very federalist, uh like sort of position. We want, you know, decisions to be made for the moral good of the country, except for, like slavery, like we all were like that should not be happening because we saw that was a moral decision. And so, you know, when it comes to um, a baby's right to live, uh, live. To me that should be something that is a universal protection. But I think that's what you mean by his position, isn't one that we're like, yay, we've really got it. It's more of a republic democracy position which says, hey, we'll let you guys decide, which is with the turning over.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like she said she would want to reinstate.
Speaker 2:Roe v.
Speaker 3:Wade, and you know she said it was a priority, one of the most important priorities that she has, starting on day one, whereas Trump's position don't agree with it. I think abortion should be outlawed completely. It's murder. But his position allows abortion. You know pro-life people don't agree with it. I think abortion should be outlawed completely. It's it's murder, um, but his position allows abortion. You know pro-life people abortion abolitionists, et cetera, to get work done on the state level, whereas her position would not at all.
Speaker 3:Right, so it's like, yeah, neither one's ideal, I think it's. It's not like um, the stuff we were talking about saying like hey, this is, you know, there's no problems over here, it's just, it's more of like the lesser of two evils type principle, Sure.
Speaker 1:And I think and I love it, like cause one. I've read and this is like you know, it's from the internet stat, so take it with a grain of salt like one in four women have had abortions, so that that makes it a very sensitive issue that a lot of people are dealing with. So when we call it murder, that should hit in a way that goes, ah, I mean, and it should, but that's why we also we're not like, just you know, lock them away and send away forever. But what we want you to understand is that there is great grace for those, um, uh, who have fallen short of the glory of God, that Jesus has come and died on the cross, risen from the dead, and so this isn't like, hey, we are at some place of perfection, but here's God's standard of holiness. And when we sacrifice children for the God of um convenience or the God of, I don't feel like I should raise a child in this world, or I don't think there's a lot of issues there, or like even to like, like you don't understand what happened to me that brought this baby about, then that becomes like you're now stepping to the role of God and that is a very, very wild place to be. So I love to hear your perspective on that, because I think that's where you know.
Speaker 1:I think there are some single issue voters out there on both sides Like some would say, hey, reproductive justice or reproductive freedom for women is, like, my main thing, because a lot of women have experienced abortion. And there's this great fear of like I'm going to go to jail, I'll be marginalized further, whatever the thing is. And then there's also the fear of like I'm going to go to jail, I'll be marginalized further, I'll, whatever the thing is. And then there's also the standard of holiness that God's calling us to, and I think that's why it's such a difficult thing. What are your thoughts on those?
Speaker 2:I mean, it makes me think about, um, like the question that you were asking earlier of how come we don't have more Christians that are like good, god fe-fearing Christians, in leadership, and I feel like a lot of people don't want to hear it, don't want to be under that standard. They want to be able to do what they want to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, true.
Speaker 2:And so you know, if I were someone who had an abortion, for the law to say that that's murder and that's not okay. That makes me feel really terrible. And you know, it's probably not something that they're real proud of anyways, and so I could see that being a real reason to vote for Kamala. You know I want to affirm what I did.
Speaker 3:That's okay.
Speaker 2:I think it goes across a number of issues as well of, like, I want to do what I want to do and I don't really want to hear some standard that tells me that I'm not good. Right, you know, yeah, or you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think you're totally right. And so you like to see revival and reformation in a state or a nation. It, you know it's you need. You need both from the ground up spiritual renewal of people coming to faith in Christ and wanting to conform their lives to him, disciples being made, churches being planted, but also being able to. You know, it makes sense naturally that, like, if a bunch of people are becoming Christians in a place, you're gonna want the laws of that place to honor God and not permit, not approve of evil or punish good, right. And so you want civil leaders who have a biblical vision of justice. But if the people of that civil place don't appreciate a biblical vision of justice, but if the people of that civil place don't appreciate a biblical vision of justice, they're never going to elect Christian leaders.
Speaker 3:And so both kind of have to be happening simultaneously and together. Yeah, christian people are people coming to Christ through evangelism and the work of church planting, and all that while at the same time praying for and laboring for political reformation. Um yeah, civil reformation, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that that's. That's good. What about I did? Like what you, your thought I like on kind of building the wall? Um, how is that one of those things that, where you're like man, that that sounds to me very um, that that sounds to me very um anti-people, you know you're, you are saying no to the imago day is like meaning like you're devaluing a human based upon where they were born, as opposed to um, that, the, the struggle that I have on, like when I think about the, I think that actually, kamala has now arrived. She's at the same place as. Is that not? That's not?
Speaker 3:true, is it? She's made some comments about, you know, really wanting to secure the border, have a, you know, very strong border, all this stuff after you know, years of kind of mocking what trump did, kind of adopting a similar position to his.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so and I and I, and so it's kind of confusing at this point where she stands, but in the past she she said she was like kind of bring it all in and, and, and I think you know we look at our, at the, the country you know, um, come bring your poor, come bring your. You know we're gonna receive everybody, and that was sort of the initial um, you know, ellis island, sort of sort of vibe, and I think what can happen, though, is that, if you don't have any uh, when people are, I think it was shifted from people just crossing over at eagle pass or wherever to, just now, just going through the border illegally, legally is is they've just made it more efficient for people to come over, uh, but they're they have an intention of shutting it down. Is what kamala's position is now? Um, anyway, I, I think a strong border is is biblical, do.
Speaker 1:What do you think about? And again, I think the rhetoric is not helpful, uh, when you start start talking, when you start name calling people, um, but the policies might be something that is the stronger or the thing that I think was actually more protective, especially if a president is charged with securing or keeping safe, if you will the border. Any thoughts on that? And like maybe the frustration that you had with, maybe, the Republican platform of like hey, build a wall to keep people out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I think that I agree a lot with what y'all were talking about in terms of, you know, a house and this being our country being like our home Right, and some of the scripture that you brought up in terms of how we are to treat foreigners. Treat foreigners, um, but I think there is a lot of practicality and um not just letting anybody in and as many people as want to come in.
Speaker 2:I mean there's just a lot of logistical challenges and practical challenges that you have when you don't have a system. I mean we have a system but like it's not that it that it's flooding more than we can handle is a problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so Policy wise?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you know it's really important that we do have regulations on how many people can come in. Who can come in? Yeah, a lot of it has to do with the attitude.
Speaker 1:For me, that rubs me the wrong way, yeah, and like calling all people that want to come in like's a problem there's a lot of criminal, and I and I think you know he has said trump has said hey, there's a lot of good people, we want your engineers, we want your whatever, whatever, whatever. What we don't want is your criminals. The rapists, though, and you know you've emptied the prisons and sent them here, and I think that's what he means. But again, he is off the cuff. Terrible at saying um, really mean, mean would probably be the right word for it Um, but I? But I wonder is is you know? Again, this is where you're going to have as a, as a voter, you have to go like am I worried about the mean saying or am I worried about the mean policy? And I think that's the problem that I would probably have Living in as a minority and majority culture.
Speaker 1:I lived in Japan for a couple of years, and it was an awesome experience, but I definitely was an outsider. I felt like an outsider. There were times where it felt a little scary, when I was only a white guy in the room and it was clear that I was not wanted. Uh, you know I was, I was still young. So when my my girlfriend said oh, I, I can't, you know, I need to break up with you cause you're a white guy, you know that was normal and I didn't, you know, and I didn't, I was just like, oh, that's just the way it is. Um, I didn't, I just I don't know. It was just like, well, yeah, of course, of course your dad would say that because, I mean, look at me, uh, and that doesn't make it right or it doesn't make it whatever, it just makes it reality of, like, I think, any, um, majority culture, minority culture. There's always going to be a friction there that you experience.
Speaker 1:But I think, as Christians, uh, we are called to be people who advocate, you know, extending the olive branch, so to speak, and being light in the dark, and as, and that's why I would hope that our churches reflect a place where all cultures would kind of be a big melting pot, if you will, where we lose some of our, our culture to gain a Christ culture of where I'm fully in for the good of God and his glory. Anyway, I bring that up just because you know, as you know, this country is essentially all immigrants, you know, aside from native Americans, uh, and that's a challenge in and of itself. Uh, and I think sometimes what the, the Democrats will and what? Even in the Democrat platform it starts off with a land acknowledgement thing of where this, we are sitting on stolen land and this land is not ours. But nobody's advocating like let's give it back to, let's go find all the Indian ancestors and or Indian Native American ancestors and give them the land back. Nobody's advocating that.
Speaker 1:And I think over the years, like countries have gone back and forth, like since I think I've read some stats somewhere again, this is like you know internet stats only 8% of time from since recorded history of 3,500, you know internet stats only eight percent of time from since recorded history of 3500. You know, 4000 years ago has had peace where there was no war, and so when you look at, like the constant ebb and flow of battle and of war and all of that, that's going to be a part of history. Now, how that you love people in spite of that history, I think is a part of what being making a christian is different and unique and awesome. Um, but I don't know. I think this is where, when I look at thinking about the border, when I think about the rhetoric of how, of the way you talk about people, the ultimately the policies for me become, uh, the most freeing thing, cause I would say what I've been wild, and I know I'm rambling a little bit, but there are people of all colors coming out to vote for uh trump, at least what I've.
Speaker 1:You know, this might be just because I have my, my, my confirmation bias on my own tiktok and uh instagram and reels or whatever, like anyone else. Tiktok, you know, listen, I looked at it once. All right, uh, so so. But does that make sense? Does that like, am I like off the rails here with like sort of that, that reality, that that?
Speaker 3:that you're seeing diverse people are voting for Trump. Yeah, I mean no, I don't think you're off the rails. I think it's true. I think it's true for both candidates.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know if we're beyond and again, I don't want to pretend that there's not racism, I don't want to, like I get that, I've experienced it on both sides of the coin, uh, but I do think there is, um a greater sense of unity within each tribe. Does that make like unity across different? Like it's? It seems to me that the it was like the working class in the 70s, 80s, that was democrat, uh, and then the other, you know upper class, was republican and that's. I feel like there's just an amalgamation of shift, uh, where I'm watching it kind of move all over.
Speaker 1:So what, what's the unity now? A unity among socioeconomic, a unity among, uh, uh, race, a unity among even, like some, like across the spectrum, with, like there's not one monolithic. The black vote is here. It's not uh, uh like, it's just it's within, um the Democrat and Republican sides. There is a genuine diversity amongst people. Sure, I think that's what I've seen. And so, although unity might not have happened nationally, unity across a diverse people group on both sides of Democrat and Republican have now, granted, there is, I think it's, an ideological divide, not a racial economic divide. I don't know, are you seeing that? I know this kind of spawned from my border thing, but are you seeing that at all from your perspective?
Speaker 2:I think people vote for what benefits them, and so it may be a policy that is like well, I'm a farmer and this is, you know, these policies on this side really benefit me and that would really ruin me if the other, if the other side got in power. And so I think that does go across different lines of difference. Um, because of what you do in your livelihood that is really affected.
Speaker 1:For instance, yeah, and I know you're running up on time so I don't want to. Yeah, you've got like eight minutes. Um, so many things to talk about, yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, I did want to make a comment about, uh, the abortion thing, because I think it's.
Speaker 2:It's really complex. Um, or at least I mean, probably many issues are really complex, but when I think of abortion not that I think that this is not that I think that this is the solution, but so we outlaw let's say we outlaw abortion, and all these babies that wouldn't have been born are now born, right, then what? I mean? Holland, you and I have been foster parents. There's always a need, as it is right now, for foster parents, and there's never enough to take in all the kids. You multiply that by many times for all the kids that end up being born, many times for all the kids that end up being born, then that's, that's another, another problem that is hard to solve.
Speaker 1:Sure, but, man, it seems like, like I think you know, most of the babies that are terminated, killed, are of marginalized populations, and so you're almost wiping out an entire people group because of a policy that I think is going against God's design and grace. The problem of we're now saying that that killing off a baby for the my own personal gain, convenience, whatever you want, whatever word I'm not able to and we're saying that baby's life is not worth the inconvenience and I and I know it's not really what you're saying, but I think that's ultimately what it becomes is it's just, it's like. It's like we would rather not have, we'd rather have those people die than have those people live and have to deal with them. And I and I think that's a position that for me becomes untenable, because it's like saying God, god, you're too small. Uh, you're not gracious enough. Uh, you're too small, you're not gracious enough.
Speaker 1:We are too wise to know what the population should be, when it seems all throughout scripture he says be fruitful and multiply. And then he's like I'm going to make sure that you're going to have enough when you follow my law, and so I don't. This is the part where I don't know if non-Christians get on board with this, because I'm trusting God is going to be able to have the ability to provide and take care of an entire nation of children that would have died and not lived, and I think to me, I don't ever want to be on that side of history, if you want to call it that. I want my position to be like God you've called, called us to be fruitful, multiply and subdue the earth, and I don't think that's changed. Uh, from a standpoint of, uh, let's have less people, I think I think the problem, one of the problems of our country right now is isn't don't we have like a population problem where we're not enough rate is?
Speaker 3:in serious decline, right yeah right.
Speaker 1:So the birth rates in serious decline. So I think of china, and they reverse their policy of the one one child policy and they can't get people to have more kids. Um, because it's already been ingrained that you only have one, and only the crazy people would have more than one, and so that's a hard shift. So, to me, with a population being in decline and the people that we're killing off are marginalized people, then what we're saying is we want to keep it nice and status quo and to your point. But who's going to provide?
Speaker 1:I think that's where you trust God, that he's going to bring the people and that those and that the people that are that live. They maybe been, they weren't aborted, they did live. Usually, they're the ones advocating for pro-life movement, and I've known a lot of them, which is why I know it's anecdotal, but man, that's a powerful. When you meet someone who was not aborted or survived an abortion and they're living, and again, even if they weren't productive, I think that's where we go. The Imago Dei is so valuable that we can't afford our the curse on our country's soul of saying that person is not worth saving. I don't know your thought on that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree, I think it's a. It's a you could you? You brought up the situation in kind of like a logical frame of like okay, let's say, all these children were born, then what do we do, you know? And isn't that going to be a problem with, like, the assumed alternative being isn't it maybe just better to kill them before they're born, so that we don't have to deal with those problems, which I think is an ethical move we can't make as a Christian? Rather, you know this, it's not a.
Speaker 3:The general answer, answer in principle is parents need to be held accountable and helped and supported to raise their children rather than kill them before they're born. Um, so that's a lot of work. Adoption and foster care is one way that non-biological parents can help with that problem, but biological parents need to be held accountable and helped and supported in that, and so I think that's where our labors, politically and in civil engagement, need to go is how do we better? But that has to start with teaching what is right and good. As long as we live in a country that says you know, until you take your first breath, you don't have a soul or you can be killed in the womb and it's not really murder. You might be a human, but you're not a person.
Speaker 3:This is all just total false rhetoric that doesn't represent the truth of God's word and as long as that's the norm, we're not going to be able to have a standard of justice to as a starting point to train people to say since this you know, unborn child is a human being with a soul made in the image of God. We cannot kill it. We must hold parents accountable and help them and support them to raise them. So I think obviously we we both believe in foster care and adoption. Um, yeah, you're doing it, that's one, that's one piece of it, but also it's a discipleship issue, um, and it's an outreach issue. It's a um, it's, it's very multifaceted Um, but I don't think the solution can be um, you know, let's just, uh, kill them before they're born so that we don't have to deal with that.
Speaker 1:Right, and I also look at it as like how many like whales? You're not allowed to kill any baby whales like that. People are like they would go off, like how dare you? But why then would we not have that same sort of horror, a baby human? That? That, to me, is where we've reached a place of and yeah, and that's where we get to.
Speaker 3:You know, one of the questions you asked, I think is a good question you brought up character. Does that person's character matter? And I think absolutely a person's character matters. And, um, my thing is, a lot of times the discussion around this is saying well then, you can't vote for Trump with the assumption that Kamala has good character, which I totally disagree with.
Speaker 3:Someone who's passionate about the right again, mothers being able to murder their unborn children, transgenderism and homosexuality, these are things that are not biblical values and you go, how can someone be passionate about these things and have good character? And so I think there's character flaws on both sides and my prayer is for their repentance, for both of them. Whoever wins, you know, I, I think Trump has major character issues that are revealed in his policies as well as his speech, um, and so I think we can say I think this is this route is going to be better than the other one, while still saying I'm going to pray for repentance on this route. You know I'm going to vote for this candidate, but also I gotta, I want to pray for them to repent from their character failures, from their policy failures.
Speaker 1:I think that's important to bring up as well if that makes sense, I'm going to close with this one story, which is so random and it has nothing to do with really anything, but it just came to me.
Speaker 1:So my father-in-law, he's a bank broker, he helps facilitate the buying and selling of banks. Anyway, he was in a certain city in texas and this guy comes up to him. He said you're not gonna believe this story. And he tells him the story. He's like, hey, god came to me and said you need to tell president trump to repent. And he's like, oh, okay. He said, well, you know, if I get enough money, if you know, somehow money comes out of nowhere to buy plane tickets to dc, then maybe we'll talk about it as he's in it he pulls up to a gas station a roll of you know it looks like drug dealer money just rolls and hits the tire of his car and he picks it up and it's, he counts, it's like exactly how much for a round trip to DC on Southwest would be. And so he's like, okay, it's just like I don't know how am I even going to talk to Trump? But he knew somebody, that knew somebody in the Secret Service. And so he says, hey, I need to meet with Trump for five minutes. Can you make this happen? He kind of explains to him. He's like there's no way that will ever happen, but if it did, here's when it would happen. You would have a five-minute window between this time and this time. If you are in the whatever the white house parking lot at this time, then it will be. That'll be the time he's like.
Speaker 1:So he gets on the airplane, goes, sits there Sure enough, he goes. You're not going to believe this. Trump's able to see you. He goes in, he sits in front of Trump and he says he said you have a message for me. He said yeah, god told me to tell you to tell the nation to repent. And he's like and what he says like, well, I mean, look at my life, you know like who's going to believe me. He's like listen, I'm just telling you what God told me to tell you. He's like well, is there anything else? Like no, that's it. Well, we've got five minutes. He's prayed for me, so that was it he prayed for trump left.
Speaker 1:It was wild so the thing that blows me away about that is god is at work, so no matter who is in office, god can speak to them using the most random of people random of people. And so our hope, uh, isn't in who is president, because god ultimately will decide that our hope is to do what God has called us to do Vote according to Christian conviction to living peaceful and quiet lives, cause we in our sense the Kings and we're also the people, so we're just hiring public servants to do the job of that. We're seeking for the best of our country and that's why it matters Like before you stand before God with that vote. No-transcript. So we know that our call is to the nation, to tell the nation to repent, and that what the nation does with that is between them and God. But our message, our hope and our love and our lives should be revealing great, great love for people Understanding the great depth of despair, of feeling the weight of.
Speaker 1:Maybe one in four women have had an experience with an abortion and I want you to know there's grace upon grace for you that Jesus loves you. He loves you so much he went to hell on the cross to experience what you deserved, because the sin was that bad, but he is that good, he's willing to take it on himself, and that is the glory of who God is that. Uh, though you might be a murderer, a liar, uh, a thief, he says I will take your punishment to hell. That's what it deserves, but I'm so good, I'll do it for you and I want to give you joy and goodness and grace. So I think that's the message, ultimately, that we want to convey is that our hope isn't in the next political leader, because God's still in control. There is no leader that is in power, that isn't a servant of God to do what he wills.
Speaker 1:So with that, thank you so much, christine, for being here. We're going to bring you back for more of your hard questions so we can talk more about it. Appreciate you, hey, listen. Thanks for watching. If you want Christine to come back with more of those hard questions, just text us at 737-231-0605. Leave a question or comment there. We'd love to talk about it. Hey, listen from our house to yours. Have an awesome week of worship.