Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Rebuilding Trust
332: Join Pastor Plek as he unravels the complex tapestry of adultery and divorce, inspired by the profound teachings of Jesus in Matthew 5. Together with Pastor Holland Greig and Cody Sparks from the Cody Sparks Band, they engage in a candid exploration of the nuances between emotional and physical infidelity. Reflecting on personal stories and experiences, they highlight the potential redemptive power of forgiveness and God's transformative grace, urging couples to seek reconciliation and examine their heart's true intentions.
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And welcome back to Pastor Plek's podcast. I'm your host, pastor Plek, and joining me in studio is none other than the lead pastor of Eastside Community Church, holland, gregg. Welcome, thank you very much, and also our very own apartment life team that we're so grateful for really doing a great job with some outreach over there. And what's your apartment? Bristol Heights, bristol Heights on the east side, right, northeast Northeast side. Okay, yeah, whatever, it's east of 35 there, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's totally east East of something. Pablo and Brimoto, welcome, welcome we are in and you brought a special guest with you. Can you introduce us?
Speaker 2:Mr Ezekiel.
Speaker 4:You can probably hear his breathing. No, don't eat it.
Speaker 1:Don't eat it, dude. There's a lot of germs on that, all right. Well, welcome Ezekiel, we're glad you're here. And then also from the Cody Sparks band Senor Cody Sparks, yep, still here.
Speaker 5:Still here.
Speaker 1:Still here we're about to do a normal podcast where we take some of your questions. We do have some criticism about us being an elitist church. We do also have some criticism that we have too many people with their pants down outside and that they're smoking weed in the parking lot. But I thought we'd get to. You know that is part of being where we're at, but hey, we're so glad all of you are here and Pablo and Bree, we were just talking about several situations before we went on and we figured we'd bring it on air because it's fascinating stuff. We talked about polygamy, we were talking about adultery, we were talking about emotional affairs Is that grounds for divorce? So I kind of wanted to just leave it open to you guys. So we were all over the place. Which one is your primary topic?
Speaker 2:Probably adultery and grounds for divorce.
Speaker 1:Okay, here we go. So Jesus, whenever he was talking about adultery in Matthew 5, says if any one of you looks at a woman lustfully in his heart, he has committed adultery. Now I think what we talked about before correct me if I'm wrong is that for you you'd say that's grounds for divorce.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, no, no, no no, no not looking at a woman Like that's what I'm saying like with the jesus's elevation yeah it's heart posture okay, heart but sure, but like but I'm talking about physically going and doing something, physical touch, I guess.
Speaker 1:Guess what I'm saying is if you're, if you're doing something, you're probably there in your heart correct so so but at what point? So at what point? Right, sure, sure, but at what point? So you're saying, if I'm looking at a woman lustfully in my heart and then I touch her, and what part? What touching then makes it adultery? That's grounds for divorce. And so I this is the part you know that, um, this gets into gray area, and so I wanted to hear what your thought was on that is like what makes it adultery.
Speaker 2:I think, going out of your way to pursue it, whether that to pursue it, whether that's physically, whether that's reaching out and having a conversation, it's more.
Speaker 4:It's left internal and has become external so if you saw, did you say that, if you looked at a woman with lustful intent, that's grounds for divorce? No so what if you go to a grocery store, you know you lust after a woman and then she goes to the other side of the grocery store and then you follow her because you want to look at her again but that's still like you're not physically doing something with you're following her, but like she's not involved in it at all.
Speaker 5:There's no physical touch.
Speaker 2:She's an innocent bystander physical touch is weird too, because like texting, for example, like if he's full on texting a girl for months, that's emotional.
Speaker 5:There's no physical, but she's also involved in that.
Speaker 2:It's not just he sees her and this is all happening within him and she has no idea.
Speaker 4:So there has to be involvement from the other party for you to consider. So is it?
Speaker 1:after one time. That's grounds for divorce. So one is like he goes, he sees a girl, he she texts him, he's like yo, what's up? And then he lusts after her in his heart and then he's like I don't want to do that again. Uh, is that grounds for divorce?
Speaker 2:saying hi yo what's up.
Speaker 1:Well, like when does the line get crossed At some point. If sex is not your line, then your line has got to be something else. And this is, I think, the part where I don't know if you can create a hard fast rule, which is why I've always said God's word, God's spirit, God's people. Which is why I've always said God's word, God's spirit, God's people, that when you run into anything like this that has a little bit of gray, because you could just be a complete jerk. You plant a woman in front of your husband Ah, he lusted. Finally, I'm free. There's a lot of marriages that they're just hoping that something like that happens so they can get out. So I think that there's a part of a heart posture on both sides, Right Of husband and wife that I think if you get to straight like here's the line and it's way before sex has happened, I think you're looking for the out as opposed to a way to reconcile, and I don't, and I don't think that's um helpful.
Speaker 5:Good point number one is god can restore anything. Sure he can forgive you. So that's where we start, like okay, how are we going to fix? It was out of the hardest of heart that god granted them a certificate of divorce, and so um so if you're out there, if you're looking for a reason just to stay biblically, I mean I'm like why are you even married right now in the first place? Yeah, if you're looking for a reason out, it's like how do I get out of this and keep it biblical?
Speaker 1:Right, you're. You're asking the wrong question, right, right, right you're, uh, holland. What do you think?
Speaker 3:give me your thoughts so the passage in matthew five.
Speaker 5:He says also talking to your microphone, thanks, from the production team. There you go. Is that better?
Speaker 3:so the passage in matthew five, uh, where he talks about um, if you've looked um lustfully or with lustful intent. He immediately after that he goes into grounds for divorce, and so you know the word he uses. There is, uh, pornea Greek word pornea, which can include adultery, can include prostitution, incest, homosexuality, bestiality, all the things that in the old Testament you know, the pornea code in the Leviticus, yeah, the old Testament law that were forbidden, yep, so it can include you know any of those things. It doesn't specify one in particular or anything, but you know what you're saying is those are all physical acts that you Physical sexual acts that you'd sexual, physical sexual acts that you do, but you're you're saying even just the um, something that could potentially lead to that should also be included in that list. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2:Like the texting or whatever you mean by the gray area, cause it is a gray area. Like obviously he, if he texts as a woman hi, how was your day? Like yeah, that's not necessarily being 100 faithful, but is that something to divorce him over? No, but it's something we need to explore and work on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I guess that's the part like the faithfulness.
Speaker 5:Yeah, why is that not faithful, is it? It's because, like what's your heart behind how's your day.
Speaker 1:You know how that. I mean like somebody could be high. How's your day for?
Speaker 2:him to be texting another woman right.
Speaker 1:And so then do you make it like texting another woman? That's the standard. No, right, that's where it's great, right. And I think that's the part where you need this is where, when you're making decisions like so huge, like like what god has joined together, let no man tear asunder, kind of like because it's so big uh, for to say, and this is where in our country, no fault divorce has really hurt us. I think we can kind of all agree. There is that because there's this thing of such as no fault divorce.
Speaker 1:Well, divorce is almost as easy as it was back in the old Testament of saying I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you If you're a man to a woman. Like that's sort of wild. And so when you bring this covenantal relationship into it and you have to go to the church which is your covenant coverage to say am I in the faith if I seek a divorce from this person because of the wounds and constant hurt I'm receiving and I need to protect myself and my children or whatever, I think that's a different conversation than the, than what's the line? Are you texting me or not? Um, and I think that's why I've okay. So when it comes to divorce. I feel like bringing the elders of the church in. Remember. This comes like Matthew 18. Like if at first you're like, hey, it's weird. When you text that person like that, oh my bad, I, that person like that, oh my bad, I didn't even think, think that that was a thing and you'll be like that's crazy, like you literally were hitting on them without hitting on them. And how could you not know that? And the guy is absolutely clueless, or maybe he's not. And then he repents and you've won him over, hallelujah. Or if he still does it.
Speaker 1:And then you bring in your people like, hey, this hurts when you text here's the, the text. That's really a painful thing. You keep pursuing this woman. That's not good. And he's like, oh my bad. And then he does it again. And then you bring in the elders of the church and then they go hey, what's going on? Why are you? You cannot talk to him or talk to her. If you do, you're you know, whatever, whatever. And then they get to make the decision for you, based on them wanting to protect you and being your covering and all that, that this person is abandoning the marriage. But you'd hope that there's a lot of steps in between. That hurt my feelings. That you texted that girl and divorce, right, I mean, I think that's where we want to go, yeah, and then I think the problem that you're not problem the.
Speaker 1:the question you're going like let's okay, let's get beyond texting is because there are some things that feel pretty hurtful, that are just one-time events, like, uh, a one-time makeout session or whatever, um, and then you go again. I think this is why bringing the elders in, if it's not a clear-cut to say like, and elders like were you drunk, were you whatever, whatever, and then like is this your intent, is your heart posture? Have you given up the faith and your marriage for whatever? And do you want, will you seek forgiveness and all of that, and I think otherwise we get back into the hey, let's just just cut it off, move forward. And I don't think that gets to the heart of like God's heart for us, although clearly God has made a provision for divorce in the case of adultery for a reason. So I think I think that's sort of an important factor. Holland, any other thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:I think, just the. I mean I think there's a difference between grounds for rebuke and church discipline and grounds for divorce. Like is obviously an unhealthy habit or pattern, something that is like an unfaithfulness of the heart that is leading to texting or pornography or whatever. Obviously, things that need to be confronted and issues of the heart that, like Chris is saying, go through Matthew 18, you know, eventually gets to the church elders, right, you're, you're doing church discipline to deal with it, but that doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as grounds for divorce. And so I think, if you know, if, if it's in the realm of um struggling with pornography and inappropriate text conversations, to me I go that's definitely a church discipline issue but not necessarily a grounds for divorce issue, and that each case should be handled with patience, with wisdom, with bringing church leadership into the situation for counseling and care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Cody, your thoughts on that?
Speaker 5:I think again, I think it goes what your intent behind messaging someone is, or talking to someone outside of marriage, for example. I didn't realize that I was doing how like I would go to play a show and I would meet people and I'd have I call them fan friends, because this was like a real deal that we had to like work through, but they would come around a lot and different. It didn't mean that I was attracted to them or like them, but they were fans that would come to shows and so I would end up becoming friends with them and we would talk. But the goal behind it was for them to bring their friends and their friends. So it was more like oh yeah, I'm just gonna it's again, it's wrong taking. I'm like I'm gonna take advantage of this one to tell that one and they're gonna bring their friends on are y'all coming to the?
Speaker 4:show it really is and then you don't think anything of it.
Speaker 5:So what was your intent behind it? Well, I wasn't doing it like for sexual reasons or to like quote unquote cheat. I was doing it to like fill people in. But I didn't realize that was that Aaron was like that bothered her because she didn't know. We never talked about it and I never thought it was really a big deal. So I mean, I don't think that you know me talking to them at that time. Aaron should have been like hey, that's, we should probably get divorced because you did that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So tell me, why is this so personal for you guys? It was kind of interesting. As we were talking about it, this kind of got I feel the temperature rise and I was like man, we're really getting into some nuance here. What made this so personal? Go ahead, bro. Did you just call her bro? Yeah, that's grounds for divorce.
Speaker 2:We've always called each other bro and people. People are like why do you call your wife bro? I think because we started off as like really close friends but ended up getting married anyways that happens well in early in our relationship he did cheat three times was penetrative. One time was not, and it took years. He did cheat three times was penetrative. One time was not, um, and it took years.
Speaker 5:Well, you have heart wounds together.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Working through it and and this was before you were married, or when you're married before.
Speaker 4:All right.
Speaker 1:So before you're married, he cheated. Um and were you guys Christian then?
Speaker 4:I'm just sort of would probably say we were, but not really. Yeah, I'm with you Nowhere to where we are now. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, but point being, I said I've gone through this three, four times, I'm not going to go through it a fifth time. But now I'm realizing, okay, that might not be biblical, because to me it wasn't like oh, if you go have sex with someone else a fifth time, I'm out it's. If you do anything a fifth time with another woman who's not me, I'm not going through it again. So hearing that like oh well, that's not necessarily biblical like is kind of infuriating. Not saying I'm here looking for an out because I'm not, like I truly believe we're past this, it's not going to happen. Um, we're happily married. But the thought of potentially being put in that position again and having to just be like oh well, you know he's sorry again right, that's because you happen to you three times and you know the hurt behind it, and there's other people that it's happened to multiple times.
Speaker 2:But and I know that they're also being told hey, you don't really have grounds in this situation, because it was just a kiss or it was just a text. How are we supposed to? Yeah communicate to those people and encourage them to stay when they've been hurt so many times. Well, if you like.
Speaker 1:This is where forgiveness is not dating quality, uh like, and what I mean by that is, um, you don't like if, if you're with somebody before you're married and they do something like that, I'd be like I'm out Right Cause there's no covenant holding you together, and I think that's probably part of the reason why I'm not saying I don't want to get into why you you did that Like cause who knows, I'm not even gonna go there. But for another person, potentially the reason why you're just like, I mean, the relationship's serious but it's not like we're married. I really feel like some people could go to that sort of extreme in the dating relationship, but within the marriage relationship. That's why I always say the transactional nature of sexual relationships outside of marriage are so huge that you have got to constantly perform better than you last performed or else that person's going to leave, and so that's why you see that nature sort of come out in non married, not married, uh, outside of wedlock sexual relationship. Can you add on to that? Just jump on there somewhere?
Speaker 3:just say something to that, yeah sure yeah, I just think.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I just have noticed the transactional nature of non-married sex is so different than married sex that if someone gets upset with somebody because they aren't performing not even necessarily sexually, sexually, but like you, I don't know you relate to whatever. You made me look bad. You said something cutting in public and I was like, oh, that was offensive. I'm like, oh, that's grounds for me to have sex with somebody else because you did that to me. It's a very transactional nature. Here's what I would add yeah, it's a very transactional nature.
Speaker 3:Here's what I would add yeah, in outside of a Christian view of sexuality, marriage, a one flesh union, sex is going to be the way you see, like you said, transactional, the way you see anything else in life is. You know, what do I get out of it? Is it worth my time, you know? And so the Christian view of sex is about, you know, sowing into this one flesh union, rather than what can I get from the other person? It's, you know, how can I sow into something that you know that God has joined together as one, that is sacred, that is special, and so, um, yeah, I think it does make sense. There's a logical connection or correlation between a Christian view of marriage and sex and a worldly or secular view. That's going to be. You know, the Christian is going to view it completely differently and that it's not just a transaction, something to consume, but it's something to give of yourself soon, but it's something to give of yourself.
Speaker 1:Do you feel more confident, brie, now that you're married, or is that same fear lingering?
Speaker 4:um you can be honest?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean I think, or you can lie.
Speaker 2:Either way, there's always there but, it's not as much as it was like it took five years for two years okay, we've been together for almost eight, so it took, I'd say, five years of getting to a point where I'm like okay, no, I there it is I trust wait how many years?
Speaker 1:five, yeah it. It is almost always five years from the d-day. D-day is discovery day, and when you talk about a fair recovery, it's five years to the days when it starts to get better. This, actually, it's 100 true um how cody how would you?
Speaker 5:know, because it does take five years I've researched it I mean, I mean, obviously I was lived this. Um, yeah, and it was funny because we always, I mean, let's say, we were pretty much what gris like 2019, well yeah, but yeah, january of 2020, and you're like it takes five years that's right that's right, and I mean really pretty much to the t.
Speaker 5:It was that like almost perfect. And I I've been texting the other day and I was like Holy moly, like this is pretty weird that that was it the whole time. So now that when we talk with guys that are have screwed up and done all this and they're like, yeah, I want to work it out, and blah, blah and are you sure, cause out and blah, blah, and are you sure? Because I'm just gonna let you know for you it's really gonna be brutal and you're just gonna have to take it if you want to make this work. And it's gonna take about five years if they guys really go.
Speaker 5:What I'm like? I'm not even a year five yet and I can tell you like I'm in three or four and it's still not good, because she might wake up having a dream about it or think about something, or you say something that you didn't even think twice about, that brought up that wound for her and we're off to the races again and you feel like it's day one all over again, right? So that's where it's like, man, if you guys aren't doing this together, I can't imagine being outside of the christian world trying to come back from an affair. There's like no way. It is because the earthly, the way that like the world views things, is oh, it's like everybody does it, right, so it's like no big deal, especially emotionally. Yeah, they're like oh, it's no big deal, everyone does it, so what's why not? Yeah, and it turns into the physical side of it and she's like man, wash your hands clean on it.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 2:So you guys are pretty much healed from this then. Oh, like Cody said, sometimes a dream will come up. Like I said, I'm still in contact with one of the girls because part of the healing process is. I went and had a conversation with her.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she was actually at her wedding.
Speaker 1:What, yeah, so you invite her to had a conversation with her? Oh, wow, yeah, um, she was actually at her wedding. What, yeah, yeah, so you invite her to the wedding? Yeah, was she a bridesmaid?
Speaker 2:no, what I didn't include is two of the three women were pablo's best friends. Yeah, so best friends, best friends.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's fun were you also a best friend at the time, sorry, um, no, no, I mean like I think that's the problem right in our culture is that we've kind of we've, we've uh, I was actually watching. This is probably way too much detail, holland, so bear with me. But in the 1920s or when the early 1900s, when the temperance movement came around and the, the speakeasies opened up as prohibition came, that was the first mixing of men and women drinking fyi, and so after uh prohibition ended, the bars continued to be a place for men and women. When it mingled, as before, it was only somewhere where men went and prostitutes went, sort of sort of a wild reality of what prohibition sort of brought. Uh was anyway.
Speaker 1:So what, what? What they created was that men and women interacting a lot more. Um, now, I'm not saying that men and women can't work together, be coworkers, be friends, all that. But what I am saying is what happens when we kind of um kid ourselves and say, uh, we're just best friends. It creates somebody in that relationship is not a friend and nobody wants to own it, because then that would be weird and they lose their shot. But inevitably there's one of the people in that relationship that is thinking more than friends.
Speaker 4:You know it's funny, but not funny. I remember, probably like a year or two ago, you said that on a podcast and I think we were together listening to it and I was like that's not true. And then I think she said something and I was like cause I've always had like a girl quote unquote best friend. And then I sat there and I try to think of one instance where I wasn't into them or they weren't into me and I was like crap, it is true I didn't believe it, but I had a best guy friend that was actually friends with pablo and ever since the wedding I haven't heard from him of course not, because he was just hoping that pablo would die, I mean, I'm just being real here.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm just telling you call it like it is.
Speaker 4:He was like as soon as he's out of the picture, I'm in like flynn well, and I told her because I was like, because I think she kind of tried to deny it at that point, but I was like I'll tell you this if for most dudes that have a girlfriend that they like a friend, that's a girl that they think is like even semi-attractive if they, if the girl was like, hey, you want to do something, they would do it 100% of the time so I was trying to tell her, like I know you got.
Speaker 4:You think he's like a brother to you, but I'm telling you, if I was in the picture and you were willing to do something, he would 100% do it yeah, outside the body of Christ, that's gonna for sure happen, and even inside the body of Christ there's.
Speaker 1:If I was in the picture and you were willing to do something, he would 100% do it. Yeah, outside the body of Christ, that's going to for sure happen. And even inside the body of Christ, there's a huge tendency for that to happen. So, yeah, yeah, all right. So okay, so now you guys are going to counseling and that's working.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but we're not going to counseling for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, sorry.
Speaker 4:I mean, I think we've really worked through this, yeah, like it's not an issue between us anymore. I think the only time it becomes an issue, if ever, is, like Cody said, if a memory pops up or, like we did, our testimony, which we went in probably the most in depth into the situation that we ever did and the emotions came up.
Speaker 2:Like I found myself getting emotional and it wasn't like it directed at him, it was just wow. I've never put into words how it really made me feel that like going through, how I found out like all those things brought up those emotions again, but it didn't affect it doesn't cause like separation between us oh, that's good, yeah, and you don't feel defensive?
Speaker 1:me right, oh no no, you're just like yeah, I own that.
Speaker 4:I was so stupid, every single time.
Speaker 5:I think the big thing is too, though, is all that happened before you got married. I know it's not right, but when you both said I do and you stood for God, and we're like, hey, we're going to do this I'm not saying it's clean slate, but that's a clean slate for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that is really powerful. I think the struggle I think with because it kind of gives you like, hey, we're really in this together, we have a whole ceremony, you kind of go into a whole thing For those couples that have had an affair within a marriage covenant, that gets really hard. Not because because everybody and I remember I've told you I've had somebody call me because everybody wants proof. How can I make sure they're not going to do it again? I had this. I've told everyone this a billion times, but one more time will hurt. I just lay off to Hong Cause I don't think he knows this one.
Speaker 1:I had a this. This husband called me and he would listen to, I think, one of our sermons on a fair recovery and, um, he called the pastor Plex podcast hotline and I and I and I talked to him and he goes hey, my wife's about to go on a business trip to Germany. Uh, she is going to be with the guy that she had an affair with. What can I do to make sure she doesn't step over the line and, you know, step out on?
Speaker 5:me Go with her and hold her hand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I was like here's what and I remember saying this and I kind of feel bad about it, but not really Cause it was, I was sarcastic, yeah, but it was true I said here's what you do, here's how you make sure she doesn't have an affair. You find a closet and you put her inside of it and then you get a padlock and you lock it and the guy I could feel like he was taking notes he's going to put her in the thing and shake it or yell at her or something. And then that reminder of what the prison he was in or something. And it shake it or yell at her or something. And then that reminder of what the prison he was in or something. And it's like then you leave her there the entire trip until the trip is over and you send her back to work and you file a missing persons and then you sort of like go through the motion. Then he was like what do you mean? I said there's no way you can 100 prevent her from having. If you've got at some point, trust the lord.
Speaker 1:Now, if she's had an affair and she keeps having a, are you got to bring her to the church? And there's got to be church because there isn't the rule of thumb. The rule of thumb was you just beat your wife with a stick. Why is it a damn of your thumb? And there's not that. That's where the rule of thumb came from, by the way. All right, did not know that.
Speaker 5:Fun fact, fun fact of the day. Back to the day podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, that's rule of thumb anyway. But you don't do that. Uh, you bring her. You say, hey, listen, elders, I need help with this. I clearly I cannot lead her in a way to not cheat on me. Uh, I love her, I want to stick this out, I want to reconcile with her, and but eventually the elders might say like, hey, she keeps running to other men and, uh, she's abandoning the faith, and so the wisdom would be here, like to protect you and your family. You need to let her go. But you do that like after a lot of trying and a lot of trying, and then the wisdom would have to come to the elder board to kind of help our elder council, to help them, help you walk through that situation.
Speaker 1:It was just such a tough deal. When someone's dealing with that amount of pain and it keeps happening, it is super hard, but I think that's the grace of God, right, is that? Um, we got to do all that we can to reconcile, live at peace with one another. But super hard, wow, yeah, super hard. So there you go. But that's why it takes five years.
Speaker 1:Uh, because for a while you're going to want to know, as the person that's been cheated on. What can I do? And you want to go. You know the classic. You know, um, counterfeit gods. You know power, control, approval and comfort are all going to want to come. I want to know that you love me and you want to have a lot of affirmation. I want to know that. I want to have in control, I want to know where you are at all times and if you ever go to somewhere, that's not okay, I want to. I want to make sure that I am there. I send someone there. I want you to feel bad about it, so I have power over you. I want to kind of have that guilt, kind of going, um, uh, power and comfort is, yeah, like I want. I will escape from my pain by doing something that I enjoy that you're not allowed to have fun doing.
Speaker 1:So that's usually where the four things that I've seen, that that couples are struggling with an affair sort of like go to as or like the person that's been cheated on and go to as a place somehow to, to, to be a sane person and the coping mechanisms, as opposed to Jesus, whereas ultimately the cry should be I'm going to get on my knees before God and ask him please will you give me peace, even though my heart is ripped to shreds. Uh, jesus, you died on the cross for them. I'm praying for your glory and they're good. I'm praying for my, or your glory and my good. That's ultimately. And then having the way you're going to heal and then having the people of God surrounding you, where you're not alone in that.
Speaker 3:So okay Is there and you know, maybe I don't know where everyone lands on this actually, but I'm like there there's on. What you just said is you need to trust God and you need to trust your spouse, like so that instance of like going on a work trip with someone you had an affair with. To me I'm just like that instance of like going on a work trip with someone you had an affair with to me.
Speaker 1:I'm just like that's crazy. I wouldn't do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm like at some point you there's, there's trust in god, but there's also just like there's some wisdom we have to set boundaries you don't want to be a legalist and just you can't make enough rules to keep someone from sinning.
Speaker 3:Right, we get that. You lock them in the closet. It's the only way, like I, I get what you mean. I agree, yeah, but there's also, like some wise boundaries that are like you know, like we talked about guys having a best friend that's a girl like does not work. How often does that go well? And, and I'm like you, you can go so far on that, to where it's like oh, I don't talk to any woman other than my wife ever and you're like like okay that's kind of weird too.
Speaker 1:Do you remember back, I think? Do you remember Israel Gibbs back in the day? He and his wife, like he had an emotional affair with his coworker back in the day, and then he's like what do I do? I said you got to leave your job and so, and he did, which was wild. And then what was? It was wild. So like that I.
Speaker 3:So I think that's where that's where, like when Jesus says, if you're, you know, if your right eye causes you to, you know to to sin, like, cut it off. Like there, I feel like there is some measure of what may even feel like an extreme action or decision to cut off something that might be tempting you to sin, and that may be you leave your job or you know. I mean the fact of, like you had an affair with someone and you just stayed at that job.
Speaker 1:Like that's just that's where I feel like his church needed to come in and step in. That's why I was like, if you want to know what you can do, nothing, but what you can do is bring the church in around Otherwise. But what you can do is bring the church in around Otherwise, you're constantly just setting yourself up to get destroyed.
Speaker 3:Even before the church, though, as a husband, to lead your wife to say this is not a great place to stay working. I don't know, am I?
Speaker 4:crazy. No, no, you're all right, no you're making sense, and I think, more than just wise boundaries, I think respectful boundaries. Yeah, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 4:because respectful to the other person yes, because one yes you should flee from sexual immorality like if you're in the place where you've already committed a sexual act, adultery with another woman, like you should not be around her, you should not see her, you should not talk to her because, whether you would like to recognize it or not, that's a temptation 100 um.
Speaker 4:And so we went through this because, like we mentioned, those two of those girls were quote-unquote best friends at the time that I had been best friends with for years and part of me was like, okay, yes, like what I did was wrong, this isn't that, but I can't cut them off, like they're're a best friend, you know. And and it was not interesting, I guess I don't know what it was, but I fought that for the longest time because I was like you're trying to take my freedom away, like this is my friend, I can't just cut them off. And and that's totally disrespectful to her right To be like the women. The girl that I cheated on you with I'm about to go hang out with her. You know we're about to go get some lunch, like that makes zero sense. So one yes, is that what you did back in the day?
Speaker 1:what you just like. Go get lunches with these girls. We would go smoke weed oh yeah, um, well, that makes sense and then get less um.
Speaker 4:But so it's not just wise, but I think respectful you know, and, like you're saying, if you're a husband, that's been put in this position like the respectful thing to do would be. You know, I, unfortunately I have to quit my job, Like I shouldn't be around this person and it might not make sense financially or whatever. But you know, I don't know. I just think it would be the right thing to do.
Speaker 1:I think boundaries, but I think even boundaries, like even before an affair happens, are wise. I know that sounds and I think that's where you're getting at. So, like Adrian and I have the thing where you know she doesn't ride alone in a car with other dudes. If she has a meeting with somebody, it's going to be at the church. If she has a meeting with somebody, it's going to be at the church. If she has a meeting with like Cody or Grayson, or it's going to be at the church if I'm not there, just so that there's never even like if like a date, like feeling, whatever you know what I mean. And I think that's important to talk that through. And and then it's incumbent upon me to kind of like lead her in a wise way as well as receive her feedback if something makes her uncomfortable. And so we talk about that, uh, a lot of like where our comfort levels are on different things. So I think that that to me, is really helpful.
Speaker 1:Um, of course, adrian's the most open person on the entire planet, so you never wonder what she's thinking. So that makes things really easy for me. But I do feel like that is one of the things that's challenging. It's not everybody has that open communication, because there's a lot of people that don't say hey, that makes me feel icky or weird, and they don't know how to communicate it, so they don't. And so then that you hide it. Yeah, you hide it, that's what I'm going to do. So so when you feel icky or weird, you just pretend, or not that you pretend, it's just that you just don't bring it up because it's uncomfortable.
Speaker 4:Um and and I think that's where a lot, especially for women, like, oh, you're trying, you're too controlling, you know you shouldn't try to set these rules, that you're like, you're too insecure about yourself.
Speaker 1:I think there's a lot of things that we're saying so to set a rule for your husband.
Speaker 4:Yeah, even if there, even if there has been no affair, or if even there has been an affair, it's usually pointed to like, oh, you're just insecure about yourself or about your relationship, but it's like. That's why I love that re-engage.
Speaker 1:the marriage ministry has a chapter on oh, is this a re-engage plug? I love this.
Speaker 5:Yes, we'll see what you do there.
Speaker 4:That there's an expectations chapter, because I feel like I don't know why it's just something that I don't know. Maybe in premarital, you know they talk about it, but I feel like it's just something that doesn't get brought up, which is like what are my expectations for you as a husband, as a wife, what do I expect you to do or not do, or how you should act in this situation or not act? Um, and I think it's like crucial to not get put in those positions of like hey, you know, you're a little too friendly with that girl and the person had no idea. Like, oh, I thought we were just being cool, but you know what I mean. Yeah, so in having those quote unquote hard conversations they're really not that hard you can prevent so much hurt, I think on both sides, so much hurt.
Speaker 5:I think on both sides. Yeah, being transparent and being open. Yeah, like yeah, I don't. You can go through whatever you want, I don't. I don't have anything to hide.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Even if you feel uncomfortable. Okay, here you can look. I don't, yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 1:Where do you guys land on, like uh phones, for example passwords, and can they look? Can uh you look at each other's phones whenever? Yeah, you, yeah, yeah me too, cody, yes and locations and location. Yeah thing now forever.
Speaker 5:I used to think that was the creepiest, weirdest thing, yeah, and it's so dumb and it made zero sense to me and I was like why? But then, when I started getting defensive about it, I was like what am I trying to hide?
Speaker 4:yeah, yeah, and see, that's where we had some friends, that that was the case where the guy got super defensive, had nothing to hide, but got super defensive about it. And again I think it was trying to point to like you're just, you just, you just don't trust me that's right you know, but it's like's like Well, allow me to earn.
Speaker 1:I always say, especially in one of these situations forgiveness is given, but trust is earned, and so I think if you've had a breach of trust, then showing your location or whatever, is such a blessing.
Speaker 4:Well, this is with no breach of trust, but just like.
Speaker 1:Even then I still think well then why? Because it's so convenient for me, instead of getting upset that adrian's late, I at least know where she's at.
Speaker 2:yeah if I didn't respond for like 30 minutes, he would freak out thinking something happened to me.
Speaker 5:So it's more so like yes, on that area, correct for sure it's not a trust thing, it's a safety thing and a convenience you guys all look at each other's, your spouse's location, oh yeah, I mean not on a regular basis, but it's not.
Speaker 2:That's funny, I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
Speaker 3:I just it's funny, I've never. I've never done that before oh man, it's so great.
Speaker 1:well, because I mean adrian's not exactly an on-time machine and so, yeah, to know where she's at and like how much longer we have to wait is really good yeah but at least your reasons behind it are, that Some people's reasons behind it are.
Speaker 5:I need to see actually where they are, because they've lost trust.
Speaker 3:I think probably like Jenny and I just talk so much Like if I'm like not here talking to you, like we probably just call each other talking on the phone.
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's good, and where are you?
Speaker 3:So like we pretty much always know where the other person is anyway, just cause in between pretty much everything else, we always call it I don't know. I don't know if that's like way more than other couples, or not. That's probably a little more. We uh talk and text like all the time.
Speaker 1:Well, that's good, good for you. Can you hear me now? Good, all right, uh, all right, let's, let's translate. Yeah, so, um all right.
Speaker 5:So I feel like that we kind of nailed this and consequences, consequences, earthly consequences oh, earthly consequences.
Speaker 1:Well, where are you?
Speaker 5:going with that. Sorry, well, we were. Well, they were kind of talking about like, uh people, how they move on, or or trust not, or now I need your phone, like access to your phone. Now it's this. So you, your consequences, your heavenly you know, with your heavenly father, they're taking care of their forgiven earthly consequences. If you, you're toast, I mean really, though, think about it I mean you lose. You lose all freedom of your life.
Speaker 3:So your consequences on earth are different. Like it makes sense if you, if you're the one who broke trust, it makes sense that you lose your freedom because you've got to earn it back that's right, and you basically 100.
Speaker 5:it's you check in this amount of time? Where are you going? Where are you at when the questions are asked? You can't get mad about it, right? You just have to sit there and take it. When they get frustrated and mad and angry, you have to sit there and take it when they are like you can't go on this trip because you did this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I love this because the scriptural support for that would be 1 Peter 3. Live with your wife in an understanding way. After you've ripped apart the trust, then you've got to be understanding that she is going to be a little bit less trusting of you in whatever situation you're in, and you're going to try and give her as much security possible other than her security as God and the Lord. We understand that, but you want to live with her in an understanding way, not to build anxiety but to release it. Yeah, that's good way not to build anxiety but to release it correct, um, yeah, that's good. Did you guys have to go through that period of like like a leash, so to speak?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, I think the leash didn't actually go into full effect for like a year later, because he fought it so hard it was that you're taking away my freedom and getting to him to understand like, no, like you brought this upon yourself, it's not me was this when you guys were in california, or yeah, yeah yeah, to set the record straight, I was like 19.
Speaker 4:Hey, listen, you were in california, I was pretty that's all you have to say.
Speaker 1:Justifying hey, hey, you can't use age we're not holding me accountable, not another one like that. None of my stuff from when I was 19 is being brought up that would have been.
Speaker 4:I'm just saying to put into perspective like I was pretty dumb and immature. Accurate and your response yeah, not that like. Oh, I was just, I was 19, that's why I cheated, no, you know. But just to say like I was pretty dumb and immature and I thought I had some type of rights after you know that shouldn't have gotten stripped away, which is stupid yeah but I can understand it's.
Speaker 1:It's again in the not married world.
Speaker 5:It's like and not in an outside world. Yeah, and California and California. I mean, like you know, it's like the land of everything and an outside world. And California and California, it's like the land of.
Speaker 1:You don't know who's a he and who's a her.
Speaker 2:It also didn't help that everyone else in his life was telling him that I'm the one that's overreacting and I'm being overbearing, and what he did was not that bad.
Speaker 5:That's an earthly. Yeah, I'm telling you People are just like yeah it's not that big of a deal. And then you came to Texas.
Speaker 3:Man. Praise the Lord, though. I look at you guys now and I'm like man, you're married, have a child, got a baby, you love each other, you've repented.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's just Praise the Lord, it's a really cool part of your story and you guys are going to be a great pastoral family to be able to walk people through a lot of hurt and pain Cause you understand that's really good, yeah, so so tell me that one time where he invited, he asked you if he'd go hang out with the girl that he'd slept with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we actually were in college at this point and she went to the same college we did and they were in auto or something together.
Speaker 1:Auto yeah.
Speaker 2:He was going to school for cars, and so was she, so they were in the same class Automotive class. They were in the same class and she invited like oh, I haven't seen you in a while. School had just started. She's like oh, I haven't seen you a while because of everything we should, you should come over, we should smoke.
Speaker 3:And he's like, oh, I have to ask brie, so you guys were just dating right now, though you weren't married yet.
Speaker 5:Yeah, okay, two or three years in, two years, in oh, and how long after you had already hooked up with her a year okay, really, I thought it was less time than that.
Speaker 4:I don't know that makes it worse.
Speaker 2:Because we weren't friends for that long. Maximum of the year.
Speaker 1:Maximum of the year Okay.
Speaker 2:Comes, asks me permission, and my response is exactly what you can imagine. So he took it as oh well. She said no, I can't go to her house, so she can come to my house and we'll just hang out on the balcony because nothing's going to happen on the balcony. Well, mind to hop in on the balcony. Mind you, her cousin was my best friend and we were all stoners at the time and we all shared like the devices, the bongs, if you will um if you will.
Speaker 2:It was not paraphernalia paraphernalia there we go, so he blocks me on text messages and calls but posted no, I blocked.
Speaker 4:I blocked you on Snapchat because you were able to call me. You do have a better memory than me.
Speaker 2:Snapchat is how I found out about it, because he took a picture of this bong and posted it, and I recognized this bong belongs to this girl.
Speaker 1:Wow, I don't know enough about weed so you can recognize a bong.
Speaker 5:Well, I could be recognizing a cup.
Speaker 1:Oh okay.
Speaker 4:I got it. Yeah, sorry For example it was very unique, so knowing hey, this girl has to hang out today.
Speaker 2:I know this bong does not belong to Pablo, I know it belongs to this girl. I put two and two together. He had her over at his house, so I call him freaking out.
Speaker 1:Wait, were you living with him at the time? No, okay.
Speaker 2:This was a year before I moved in with him oh. Two years.
Speaker 1:Was you moving? Never mind, we'll get on so many questions, so many. Sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2:So I start blowing up his phone, calling him. He's saying I'm overreacting, that there's nothing that's going to happen, they're just smoking. Well, I get in my car on the way over there to physically assault this woman.
Speaker 1:Nice. And he knows, do you have a knife or any weapons? No, just hands.
Speaker 2:He knows that that is my intention, because I said some words and told this girl to leave. So now I'm furious because I get there and she's not there. So I'm thinking something did happen because he told her to leave, like he has something to hide. And that's when I gave ultimatum. Like you pull out your phone right now and this person, this person, this person is blocked or this is the last time you're ever going to see me.
Speaker 1:And how'd that go?
Speaker 2:I mean, he did it, I gave him. I literally said it was an easy decision, that was the last time he talked to.
Speaker 2:Said girl, was she at the wedding? No, that's was the one. They were actually really close friends. And he told me multiple times like it was strictly physical, like there was no emotional anything. It occurred at a party when they were both drunk, and she would keep reaching out and apologizing and Paul was like, well, you just have like, if you have a conversation with her and you never want to see her again, you never want me to talk to her again, that's fine. So we met up, had a conversation with her and you never want to see her again, you never want me to talk to her again, that's fine. So we met up, had a conversation and it had to have been the Lord.
Speaker 2:I don't really know what happened, but I wasn't fine with them being friends. But I could see that there was a real friendship there and there was remorse on both sides and ever since that day she would reach out to me. She never reached out to him privately, which also showed that there was remorse, and she would just say like, hey, wish Pablo a happy birthday, hey, I'm going to be in Texas if you want to grab lunch. So there was. I could see a sense of respect on her side.
Speaker 1:And I know that Pablo truly valued their friendship. That's wild that you brought two ladies to your wedding. Just one, no, it was just one.
Speaker 2:Just to your wedding. No, it was just one the girl that I went over to fight we never reconciled anything.
Speaker 4:She was a terrible friend, Well we have a surprise for you.
Speaker 1:She's here. Come on in, Samantha. Oh, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 5:Wait, is her name really Samantha? No, I'm just kidding, All right let's talk ultimatums real quick.
Speaker 1:So how many ultimatums did you lay down?
Speaker 2:Was it just two, I think just two that I can think of, yeah.
Speaker 1:Was it pre-marriage? Pre-marriage ultimatums?
Speaker 2:Was the porn pre-marriage.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Not long before we got married.
Speaker 4:That's what caused me to actually start taking it serious.
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 5:Do you think that ultimatums are healthy? Not y'all do, obviously I'm talking to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, what do you guys think?
Speaker 2:I think they can be, but I think they can also get really messy. But I think that, like both times, the ultimatum needed to happen for him to realize I was serious. Because I think I was, so I quickly forgave a lot of things that he did where he assumed I would just forgive everything or I would just get over everything until I was like no, like this is, it's so serious to me that I will walk away if it doesn't change. And that's when he's like oh crap, this isn't just something else that she's gonna brush under the rug or something that she says, hey, maybe you should change this, but she's actually okay with it.
Speaker 1:So in those instances it was almost necessary so I know this man, so many thoughts, but was there ever a thought like he's a stoner dude that is not serious about life? What am I doing with myself?
Speaker 2:I need to get out of here she was stoning too I know I was a stoner too, but even with that, like I begged him to quit so many times like smoking weed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't just. Where are we at in this? Yeah, yeah, have we quit weed yet?
Speaker 4:no, oh, right now, oh, right now, yeah, oh yeah, we're sober we are sober now all right well here we go.
Speaker 3:I'm still getting to know, you guys no, last time I'm gonna find here 2022, I think yeah, so two years ago, okay, yeah let's go
Speaker 1:I'm really proud of you guys for that but don't.
Speaker 5:Isn't ultimatum like, wouldn't you in certain situations? What's the intent behind it? Maybe because sometimes it's like a good old classic swift kick in the butt to get you going, I guess. Or is it like?
Speaker 4:oh, I never really thought that's what it was for me, because I think it was easy for me to not see that, what my actions could potentially lead to me losing her, like actually for good. And so when she was like, if you don't do this, like I'm gone, that's when I was like, oh crap, like what I'm doing is actually has a negative effect, like it can actually lead us to never see each other again. Yeah, and it doesn't mean I was perfect after that, especially with porn, but I think with porn specifically, it was like maybe two or three years in of her knowing and me saying like, yeah, I'm trying to stop, but never really doing anything about it. And so when she gave me that ultimatum, it was like, dang, like I actually need help, like I actually need to do something about it. And again, it doesn't mean I was perfect, I was far from perfect.
Speaker 1:After that, um, but has it changed, brie? Has he changed? Yeah, but so it's wild to hear, I mean, because it's not like that happened a hundred years ago. This happened like a couple years ago, like, and how did you see him progress with the porn things?
Speaker 2:Like progress negatively. No positive progress yeah move forward.
Speaker 4:How did he?
Speaker 2:move forward.
Speaker 4:How did it get worse? Well, wait.
Speaker 5:Well, I have a question, though, because we've talked about this before and I never was addicted to that. Yeah, I would rather go physically touch someone and do that. Was it because you were missing something from her that like non-sexual things, or you were just?
Speaker 4:no, wouldn't get it from her, then go and do that no, not at all I really, I'm just kind of curious how yeah, my story is I was, uh, sexually abused by my older cousin, who's a female. I I like to point that out because I've not said that before and it sounded like it was a dude, but it was yep, I thought um and so I was probably like like like six, seven, and then got into my dad's porn stash one day and I was basically I was the only boy in my family.
Speaker 4:I have like seven or eight girl cousins, so I just grew up very like emotional, you know, like not your average, like boy, and so growing up it was really hard for me to connect with a woman in a sexual way or even like kissing, whatever, and so having that porn in the darkness, where it was like I get to satisfy this quote-unquote need, and then in the light it was like, oh, I don't really know how to connect with girls. Like, yeah, I wish that I could have just been like you. Like, oh, I would rather just go and have sex than watch porn.
Speaker 5:That's not a good thing, though Neither of these are good.
Speaker 4:I did that for so long that it was just the norm to where, even when I was having sex and I could, you know, go and have sex with other girls, it was just part of what I did and who I was. It's just yeah, I watched porn.
Speaker 5:Yep, that makes sense.
Speaker 4:So it wasn't out of like not being satisfied with sex because, like when we first started dating, it was like all the time, all day.
Speaker 1:So tell me how you got free, cause I think that's the for wives out there listening. They're like what's the blank, blank, blank secret Brie? Tell me what I need to do, what was it?
Speaker 2:I mean, I wish I could say we're fully free from it. We're still not.
Speaker 1:But how do you handle one? How do you handle and how has he progressed, progress positively?
Speaker 2:Well, progress positively After the ultimatum. He put blockers on his phone that I manage um. I mean this most recent time we started doing counseling specifically for tackling this um, and it's not just him, it's also me, like, as a wife, what I can be doing, how I can support him um, but we started doing a day how do you not, how do you not get offended personally every time? I used to get offended every time, but I realized like this isn't an issue with me. How?
Speaker 1:did you come to realize that? Because if I could, if I could take whatever that thought is and put it in every woman's head, of what it would help the man grow, because he's not going to get beat down. So what is it? What? How is it trusting the lord is?
Speaker 2:is it like how all that okay, so I've also dealt with a porn struggle in the past which I could. I knew it wasn't anything to do with pablo, so I think that helped yeah play into it, but also it was just recognizing how much like when I sin, I'm not sinning because of Pablo, I'm not sinning because of whoever, I'm sinning because I'm a broken person.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So realizing like, hey, Jesus has forgiven me for so much more. And my husband's telling me, hey, it's nothing you're doing, it's nothing about you. Physically, you could be the hottest girl in the world and I would still struggle with this and just taking him at his, at his word, and trusting like he hates the fact that he struggles with this. Um, and it's. There are times, especially when I was postpartum. It was super hard, cause I did not like the way I looked, Um, and it was easy for him to fall in back into it because I also wasn't wanting to be intimate. So I fell into the thoughts of I'm not attractive anymore. My body's not what it used to be. He probably wishes that.
Speaker 5:You know I was still 16 year old, me, Um when I be 18, just want to be just protecting us. Keep going.
Speaker 2:Um just want to be just protecting us, keep going, um, so just bringing that to him and getting reassurance from him, but also trusting like it's not, like I have to choose every day that it's not me and I have to run to the lord because he's the only one that reassures me and tells me that I'm enough, and um will also equip me to then turn around and support him.
Speaker 1:That's really good. So, Pablo, then, how, how has progress looked for you? Like, is it like I? Whenever I struggle, I go and confess into her how, how do you, how do you like? What's the strategy?
Speaker 4:Yeah, um, it's been a really long journey, I think, from when I first started to try to do anything about it. It's been like five years probably, um, and I know for most of these five years I felt super helpless and like I will never defeat this um, but I think one. You know, I've, I've done everything like blockers on my phone. I can't have Safari on my phone, I can't have like any apps Like I've. I've found ways to access porn through apps that you couldn't, you wouldn't think they're possible, but it is. And so, like my phone is very boring, it's very like I only go on it for necessary things. I don't go on youtube like there's just so many things and this isn't like brie is like you can't do this so she doesn't give you an ultimatum for those things no, it was me realizing, like one, I genuinely don't ever want to watch porn again.
Speaker 4:I hate it. Um, and realizing, like, well, if I'm home alone and I'm sitting on YouTube, it's going to lead me to lusting or watching porn, masturbating, whatever. Um, so realizing through time certain things that I can do and can't do. Um, I think obviously, spending more time with the Lord and just growing closer to him has done a tremendous work in my life. Um, and this last time, um, I don't know why, I was at your, your, uh, men's group yeah, men's group one night and I just felt God telling me like you need to give up sugar, you need to give up alcohol and you need to give up caffeine. Wow, because those are things I had felt convictions about. Just really addicted to sugar. I love sweets. Really addicted to caffeine. I was drinking like three, four copies cups of coffee before even leaving Sam's group. Is that something wrong with?
Speaker 1:that, I'm sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 4:So the conviction I felt is because it was an addiction. I have a very addictive personality and for me, coffee was like I was getting a high off of it. Oh really.
Speaker 4:And that's why I would drink it, because I would get wired and feel great and I'm like dude, this is like any other drug, you know. So, anyways, I felt conviction about those things and I was like all right, god, how long do I do this for? And he was like 30 days and I was like crap, like now I have to do this. And so I did it for 30 days and I think I hadn't watched porn for maybe like a week at that time, and the entire 30 days that I gave those things up for, I had like no desire to go watch porn. Obviously I lusted, you know, here and there, but I was so much more aware about it and what I realized through it and we talked about this the other day is like, how can I expect myself to, um, deny my flesh in such a big way quote unquote as watching porn, when I can't even do it in a smaller way, like let me control myself and not eat 10 cookies when I sit down?
Speaker 3:Um, that's honestly like such a great point, like that, that reality, that self mastery, self discipline in one area influences discipline in other areas, is like a really powerful principle to understand that you know you start taking taking dominion, in a sense, of one part of your life and it's it does something to the way that you handle all the other parts of your life. Like it's a real. That's awesome that you've gotten to see that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's, it's been huge and it literally. I just ended the fast on Saturday. Um, did you have like a dozen cookies? So that's, the crazy part is like sugar just isn't the same anymore. Like I never thought I would say this, but I'll have like one cookie and I'm like, oh, that's good enough.
Speaker 2:Um wow, so it's really it's done a tremendous work in my life. Um, good for you, man. Yeah, I don't know. So, yeah, something else that I feel like has worked that we started around the time you started the fast is doing a daily check-in, because before he would only confess when he watched porn he wouldn't confess when he went to the grocery store and um lusted after a woman. He wouldn't confess when he had a sexual dream. He like none of those things.
Speaker 4:He would just bottle them up and it really was not for your sake, but for his yeah, because a lot of times like a lot of times that I would slip up and watch porn, there was so much that led up to that. There was so many times where let's speak into this.
Speaker 1:I think this is the part where people struggle here is it's like um talk to me about the daily check-in and and did you like celebrate him when he didn't watch? I don't know if that's a weird way to put that. Yeah, because what the daily check-in look like?
Speaker 4:I've been counseled before to not tell my wife because this person doesn't tell their wife because it's too hurtful and this and that, and I'm like you know. If that works for you, cool, but for us one brie wants to know how I'm doing um, and not out of a place of like you need to feel ashamed for when you fail, but genuinely she joined my side of the fight and it's like I think essential If you're going to tell your wife she's got to be on your team as opposed to uh, I don't want to say against you, but yeah.
Speaker 4:Well, sometimes it kind of would be, because she would feel like again, I'm watching porn because I don't find her attractive. It's like now we're taking different sides of the fight, but once we joined together and it's like my check-in is just basically she goes hey, how did you do today? And I'm like you know, um, I went to the store, I saw this girl. I knew she was attractive. I looked a couple of times and sometimes it's as simple as that. Sometimes it's like, you know, I watched a video and I was staring at this girl's butt the whole time. But it's very like genuine, open, vulnerable, and she prays the gospel over me and then we ask each other like, hey, what can we do to prevent that? And it's man. It's just amazing how much that's done for us, because now it's like what I've told her before we did, that is like man, I feel alone.
Speaker 4:When I, when I was fighting this for so long, it was like I know I have God, I know I have certain friends, I can call whatever, but every person in my life has let me down in helping me with this, and so I would just feel alone and and we realized this because I was bottling up so much of the battle and actually trying to fight it alone and being like you know it's fine, like I see there's a girl there but I'm not going to look and just dealing with that until I couldn't do it alone anymore. And then I go and fall and then I feel a lot of shame and guilt. But now it's like every single day, whether I do great or I do terrible, I get to confess to her, I get to tell her and we get to celebrate together Like man, look look at the work God is doing. Or we get to be like, hey, god forgives you, christ died on the cross for your sins. But how can we move forward? And you know, what can we do to prevent that from happening again?
Speaker 2:Wow, I think something that really changed feeling like a team for us too is I feel like everyone's told, hey, when someone confesses, pray for them, but no one says, okay, now you pray for the person you hurt. So when he started offering prayer to me even though he needed like I should be praying for him for the sin that he just confessed, when he would turn around and pray for me to have a sound mind and to turn to Jesus and just humble himself, that helped me to then realize like, oh no, we are a team. He does care about me. This isn't something personal. It's really hard to have hostility towards your spouse after they sat there and you pray together about the situation.
Speaker 5:So I would just encourage anyone to pray over like both of you pray over one another in those
Speaker 2:moments of vulnerability.
Speaker 1:So good.
Speaker 2:Cause it'll just real realign your heart to then go and tackle it together.
Speaker 1:Remedy for anxiety is prayer. That's what I'm hearing. Um, let's go back to the ultimatum. Uh, I think you were saying selling Cody on the ultimatum earlier. I have which part.
Speaker 5:I can't remember we were talking about ultimatums and I was like how do you think those?
Speaker 1:are positive. Yeah, what do you think on ultimatums? Good or bad?
Speaker 3:I think, like in their relationship, it obviously produced something pretty good in that it was like a gut check for him of like, okay, reality check, of like I need to get serious, um, and it was before you're married, right, you know. And so I think, like what things when I I'll be honest, when I, when I hear ultimatum, I think, like jerry springer, I think you know, like, all right, let's settle. You know, and like you better do this or it's over. And that's what I was thinking. Yeah, but underneath, if we're just like really analyzing it, underneath ultimatums are standards, yeah and um. And to be able to have a standard and say, hey, this is you know, especially before you're married, to say if you're not going to be this kind of man, I'm out, I think that's wisdom, to be honest, um, yeah.
Speaker 1:And uh, that's a great ultimatum before you're married.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, in marriage I don't think it's healthy, you know, if it's something like, hey, you, you know there's there's been grounds for a divorce already and you're saying, hey, I'm willing to stick it out and try to heal and reconcile and work through this, but xyz is going to need to change, you know, I'm like there's, I think there's wisdom in having standards, I guess I think if you have a relationship where ultimatum type conversations are happening frequently, that's like really bad sign, that's really unhealthy.
Speaker 3:If that's happening all the time, like and usually like an ultimatum, it comes at the tail end of a lot of unhealthy stuff that probably should have been dealt with in a more regular way beforehand, that it shouldn't have led up to this, and so it's just to see it as like a red flag. If it's happening a lot and stuff, I don't know when you guys are describing them, I'm like, basically, you were like I have standards and you can rise to meet them, you know, or, or I'll find someone, I'll find someone else who will meet them, and I'm like, yeah, set the bar high and don't lower it.
Speaker 1:Um, I think it's good. Yeah, I think within marriage, the transactional nature to ultimate is very hurtful to a covenantal relationship, right.
Speaker 3:It should be instead of like, instead of you, better change or I'm going to leave the. In a marriage is I committed to you and you know, together we're going to pursue what God like God's best for us. Right, You're committed to building the relationship.
Speaker 1:Or that hurt me, like when you do that that hurts me. Every time you do that. And I think the language of covenant is like I'm you know, if we are one flesh and you're hurting me, you're ultimately hurting yourself. And that becomes hard to wrap your head around, cause I think a lot of times kind of like what you guys were saying when it's me against you, then now you're you, you fall back into transactional relationship. When it's us together, it's covenantal, and whatever sin issue you're working through, it affects everyone. It's like, even if the sin isn't necessarily against one another, let's just go with it. Like you're addicted to sugar or you know you're just eating mounds of cookies every day, that ultimately hurts both of you, even though it's a sin against your own body. But if your body is not your own, then you're one flesh in so many different ways and so every sin affects everything, and so it's always ultimately going to affect you.
Speaker 3:Anyway.
Speaker 1:I think that's important to address because just ultimating conversation makes me a little bit nervous. But in pre-marriage absolutely there should be some ultimatums. You follow jesus with your whole heart. Uh, you better love god more than me. You better well, you know all that.
Speaker 3:Like that kind of things are great ultimatums because once you say I do it's, it's in till death. Do us right so all right.
Speaker 1:well, man, that was. That was a nice ride. Any other final comments before we get out of here? All right, thanks for watching. If you got any questions, just text us in at 737-231-0605 or go to pastorplankcom and leave a message for us there. We'd love to hear from you.