Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Healing Through Grief
335: Pastor Plek is joined by special guest Cindy Brinker-Simmons as she opens up about her poignant journey through grief and healing, beginning with the heartbreaking loss of her mother to ovarian cancer. Cindy shares how this tragedy initially led her to view her suffering as divine punishment and her subsequent path to understanding God's love as a gift. Her story underscores a universal truth: that everyone is on a personal journey through crises, and that resilience often stems from these experiences.
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And welcome back to Pastor Plek's podcast. I'm your host, pastor Plek, and joining me today is Cindy Brinker-Simmons, author of a book titled Restored Reconnecting Life's Broken Pieces. Cindy, you have experienced front and center in your life death and it's affected you and you've had to then lead others through it. So we're talking about grief, we're going to talk about healing, we're going to talk about Jesus and we're going to talk about parenting and family through that.
Speaker 1:I'm a pastor and today I had one of my people come up to me and said hey, my sister just died. I mean literally happened today, and she's probably 41. It's her sister and so she's a little bit younger than that. She's like in her 30s, but still it's like that's a sister, not sure where she was spiritually, just really struggling with that. And so grief is something we're very familiar with right at this moment, in my church specifically. But this is something that people are dealing with and when they're dealing with it it feels like a hole. I would assume. I lost my father about 11, 12 years ago and I've been in combat and battle and so death and grief is sort of a part of life ever since my 20s. So I really wanted you to get into this from a domestic spiritual battle that you're walking through, and so take us on your journey.
Speaker 2:Well, pastor Fleck, thank you, I'm so excited to be here with you and this is real. This is Fleck, thank you, I'm so excited to be here with you and this is real. This is real time, real life, because in my book, restored, I make a statement and that is really. It's really the nucleus around which the whole book gravitates, and that is that suffering is a universal experience. I mean, the Bible says and just to pick out a verse 1 Peter, 4, 12, it says Dear friends, why are you surprised at the painful trials you're suffering? Is there something strange happening to you? I mean, the Bible predicts suffering. It predicts that misery coexists with gladness, the pain coexists with joy and trouble, as you know, because being on the battlefield and this life is a bloodied battle.
Speaker 2:Pastor Black, life is that, literally, that every day you don't come looking for trouble, but it sure comes looking for you and your dear sister. You talked about your sister in Christ that just lost her sister. She has a hole in her heart that no ekg will ever detect, because that that happens when we lose loved ones. And let me just also say on the onset, is that suffering and grief comes in all shapes and sizes. You don't have to have lost a loved one. That that's my story. I'll talk about that in a moment. You don't have to have lost a loved one, you don't have to have lost your favorite dog, or you don't have to have a prodigal child or have a life-altering diagnosis.
Speaker 2:So just reading the paper today and listening to the news and reading about what's happening, the chaos, the calamity, the confusion can really break our hearts. So we've got all shapes and sizes and I understand that it's been said. Just to add an exclamation point or maybe a period to what we're saying is that it's been said that we're either in a crisis, we're leaving a crisis, or we're entering a crisis. So the bottom line is crisis happens and in this beautiful, messy, confusing thing called life, you will suffer. So the question is how do we suffer?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so talk us through that.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. So, chris, when I was 12 years old, I was sitting on a very uncomfortable QC. I was sitting next to my grieving 10 yearyear-old sister and my grieving 10-year-old, my grieving 37-year-old father. We had just buried my mom and I was so confused, so angry, so heartbroken. I really thought God hated me. I thought I had done something so bad, so terrible, so unforgiving that I was incurring the wrath of a very angry God. And because not only was I suffering and our family suffering, but it just so happened that the entire world was suffering with us. Because, even though mom was known as mom to me, she was known to her adoring public in the 1950s as a tennis champion Maureen Conley, or nicknamed Little Mo. She was number one in the world in tennis.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:She was a couple of years ago when she was the first woman and still the only American woman to win the Calderon Grand Slam. And just to put that in perspective, only five players in the history of tennis have won the Calderon Grand Slam. Wow, she did not lose a match her last year of competitive play, number one.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, a match. Her last year of competitive play number one, oh wow. But there was one opponent she couldn't beat and that was ovarian cancer. And so at 34, she passed ovarian cancer again. I was 12, I was 10, I was 12, my little sister was 10, my dad was in his mid to late 30s and I parked my heart thinking that god hated me oh really.
Speaker 2:And that's a tough place to be Cause. Again, I thought I had done something so bad that I was incurring the wrath of God as punishment. So that's where I that was kind of my benchmark. So I thought, of course, that if I thought that God hated me, I needed to earn back his love. So I started literally a track of performance, and not just to perform but to perform well, because I knew that God didn't love losers. So that's where I began my journey. Oh wow, I was trying to perform doing God's love back.
Speaker 1:So when did you get saved? When did you accept Christ and understand man? It's not about what I do, but what he's done.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and you know, god's outrageous grace reached out to me at age 16. We were the daughter of a pastor. We love our pastors because we love our pastors. And so a daughter of a pastor spoke with me. She worked for my dad, interestingly in business, and she and I had some time together and she said to me that there was nothing I could do to earn my way to heaven, that God loved me with an unwavering love and no matter what I did, he loved me, and that I didn't have a target on my back and we all fall short of the glory of God.
Speaker 1:And so let me just pause right here, cause I think there's a lot of people that really struggle with the idea that you really brought up that there must be something you had done.
Speaker 1:And let's talk about that for a second, cause I think that cause there is some truth, right. The Bible says, like some of you are sick because you're taking communion in an unworthy manner. There's some of like sometimes God does allow us bad things or sickness to come because of our actions. However, however, that is not always why, and probably for you at 12 years old, that definitely wasn't why. But I think that's a real struggle that people are wrestling with is how do I know if what my circumstances are reflecting are because of my own sin, because of you know God's trying to teach me something. You know why is this happening. Speak into that about you know you know why is this happening. How speak into that about you know a person in that struggle, probably wrestling with a very real thing, and maybe look at their life, cause sometimes some of the consequences of us living and making mistakes bring on bad circumstances.
Speaker 2:For sure, for sure. Great, great question. And I would imagine, as with me, chris, that a lot of your listeners are thinking that God is inconsistent, that he's inactive, that he's indifferent. He doesn't even hear your prayers, much less answer them. I mean, because that's where I was. I thought that God was so far away that there was nothing I could do to earn his love.
Speaker 2:But, to your point, we do do things. The Bible says that we say things that we know we shouldn't say Right and we do things that we know we shouldn't do. I mean, sadly, because of something that's very dark and used so effectively by the enemy, called sin. We are imperfect people. We love imperfectly, we act imperfectly, we do things. Imperfect people. We love imperfectly, we act imperfectly, we do things imperfectly. So there is consequence. Absolutely, when we do things that hurt people, or we do things that cheat in business, or we do things that just do not characterize what God wants us to do, there's consequence. There's broken relationships, there could be jail time, there could be literally a breach with people who matter. So there is consequences and we need to deal with that. I think a lot of challenge in this society today is that people are not held accountable.
Speaker 1:Oh 100%.
Speaker 2:You know so much. But many times there are circumstances outside of your control. Many times there are things, circumstances that happen you have nothing to do with. It's kind of like this freight train that's coming at you. You did nothing to cause it come at you. You didn't see it happening, you didn't even know what was there, and it's coming at you with a velocity and you can't get out of the way and it flattens you. Many times we can't control our circumstances, but we can control our responses too.
Speaker 1:I love that here's one of the things that, as you were talking, this made me think of this. This one thought is that, in the midst of, like the struggle of dealing with death or dealing with the circumstances being really horrific and thinking, oh, what part did I play, I think the thing that, no matter what, I know that I am that bad, like the reality of my depravity and my sin is that bad, but but God is that good, even if let's just say, let's just go like because let's go there with the person who says it's all my fault, fine, fine, it was all your fault.
Speaker 1:You know, moses was a murder, david was a murder and adulterer, Like there's consequence to those actions but there's great forgiveness. And then what God promises those who are his children is that he will never leave you or forsake you and that when you come to him with a humble heart, when you draw near to God, he draws near to you. When you humble yourself before the Lord, he lifts you up. So talk to me about that reality of how you experience the Lord lifting you up, how you experience God drawing near to you after you drew near to Him.
Speaker 2:Yes, and just to add to what you said, an important thing to remember is God is glorious even when your circumstances are not. The character of God does not change. His mercy doesn't change, his grace doesn't change. His goodness doesn't change just because our circumstances look bad. And I'm going to answer a question, but you just made me think.
Speaker 2:I didn't want to forget this that many times, what looks good to us looks really bad to God. Or what looks bad to us, god is saying I've got you right where I intend you to be. So God is working behind the scenes. Just you said that's working behind the scenes. He's always working behind the scenes for our good, because that is the nature of god and that's what the bible describes. God is splendid, he's perfect, he's loving, he is holy and he loves with an unwavering love.
Speaker 2:Because what this daughter of a pastor said that caught my heart and changed everything was when she said that there was nothing I could do to earn my way into heaven. So we all fall short of the glory of God. And because God loves us so much that he sent his he said his son, his perfect, holy son. His whole mission on earth was to die for me and that was so, so mind blowing that someone would die for me. And so she talked about Jesus died for me, the son of God, perfect for me, the son of God, perfect so that my sins could be transferred to Jesus and that I would become holy and righteous before a perfect God. So it doesn't mean I'm going to be perfect at all because I still have my sin nature, but because Jesus died for me, that now I had a place in heaven, that when I breathe my last breath on this side of it, that I now will have a place in heaven, that he's prepared for me. That was a game changer. But what that also did is she said that God has a plan, a purpose for me, that even in this 16 years of real hardship and sorrow, that he had a purpose for me and that he was going to use that.
Speaker 2:And, chris, it's so amazing to me and I want your wonderful listeners and viewers to hear this when I was 12, burying my mom on that uncomfortable pew, I was 12 years old, my 10-year-old sister on my side and my 37-year-old dad on my side, that day, of all the days in my life, of any day in my life that I've breathed was the darkest day in my life, ever, ever. But what I didn't know, that day was the start of my ministry. That day that broke my heart and broke my soul and just broke me, was the day that God, without me knowing, was starting my ministry. And it started then.
Speaker 2:But the journey became one that, at age 16, when I came to meet my Savior, I really understood His purpose and a plan for my life. I really understood his purpose and a plan for my life, and, you know, our lives can be so messy and he can still use our lives. No life is wasted. God uses lives. And one of the things I also realized is God wants us to share our wounds Because, as you know, chris, as a pastor, we're all broken people, all of us are broken people, we all fall short of the word of God, but we can share our wounds and God calls us to share our wounds, to see, then, and to share how he then has come and prepared us and the very word restored. And I learned this through a president of dallas theological seminary, that seminary where you graduated yeah uh, uh.
Speaker 2:This is president mark bailey shared with me. It's one of his endorsements in my book. He said that rooted in the word restored is the word three words renew, repair, renew, repair and return. Renew, repair and return. And what? And God's goal is to restore and redeem us, and what that means is to return us back to you, to restore, to renew our broken hearts, to repair our broken hearts, to return us back to a relationship with Him.
Speaker 2:So so, when I found or actually when jesus found me, see, I was pursuing g, I was pursuing this god. I was trying to figure out who this god was, because I was trying to earn his love. But in reality, chris god was pursuing me. And how sweet that that, when I accepted jesus, that totally changed everything. And what a praise report. That was chris. Because my life went, went on. I graduated from college, I had a great return back to Dallas and had a great job, robust, great things were happening to me and this very handsome and Christ-centered man entered my life, captured my heart. We married Bob Simmons, we had a darling little boy named William and we were just about to adopt a little girl for worship. We have a little heart for adoption, because, after all, we're all adopted into God's family Amen.
Speaker 2:Children of the great, perfect big daddy, the Avraham. We're all part of his family. So we were about to adopt a little girl from Russia and then we heard four terrifying words Bob, you have cancer. So once again cancer into the inner sanctum of our family. But, chris, this time it was different. This time I knew that God, this time I knew I didn't have a target on my back, that I wasn't being condemned by God, that he didn't unlove me. I wasn't being condemned by God, that he didn't unlove me. The same outrageous grace that he had shown me when I was 16 still was real. As a matter of fact, when my mom breathed her last breath. He loved her as much when she breathed her last breath as when she hoisted that Wimbledon trophy over her head. She loved my beloved Bob and I never called him. We never called each other by our first names. He called me Sweetie Pie, I called him Beloved. So when we heard that diagnosis of my beloved, god didn't love us any less.
Speaker 2:And when we walked out of that oncologist's office, it took a while to understand what kind of cancer he has. It was very, very aggressive, a very grim prognosis, my beloved said. Bob said sweetie pie, I don't know, and we were only given three months. We only give three months. I don't know if we have three months, three years or three or 30 years, but this day forward, we are going to choose joy, we're going to give the glory to God and we are going to share our story.
Speaker 2:And, chris, that's what we did. We gave the glory to God and, you know, people can see a person's dedication to Christ and they joy when they are afflicted, when god, jesus, is transforming power, embraces a person and and a watching world is seeing how you respond. Yeah, and those moments of being a dark valley. And bob and I, we gave the glory to God because in God's word he tells us to choose joy and it's intentional. It's intentional. I mean, choosing joy is an intentional decision because, believe me, we weren't doing cartwheels or flip flops or sending the hospital today anyway, but somersaults, when we heard that diagnosis, we had plans, chris. We had plans to adopt a little girl. We had great plans. Our life was flourishing, we were knocking it out of the ballpark, so to speak. Yeah, we were leading Bible studies, I mean, except when it isn't Right and yet, and yet God used us and that transforming power only because of Jesus to let us choose joy. People were watching and hundreds, if not thousands, of people came to the saving grace of knowing Jesus because they saw Jesus in our hearts, even our caretakers in the hospital, because we had to live in the hospital quite a bit during we were given three months, but God in his outrageous grace gave us three years we
Speaker 2:we live. I've lost you a little bit. I can hear you, can you hear me? Here we go. I just lost you for a second. We can. Maybe God, in his outrageous, gave us three years and even while we were living in the hospital, bob's caretakers would come up to him and say Mr Simmons, mr Simmons, what is it that you have that causes you so much joy? Because those caretakers knew the grim prognosis. And my beloved would say in just such a tender voice he'd say, oh, oh, no, no, it's not what I have. It's who has me. Nice, you know, because it's all about Jesus. I mean, really, the whole point of the gospel is to point to Jesus, and in Romans 15, 13, it says says that God is the giver of hope, so that that in turn is a source of peace. That is the source of peace, and that hope is a source of peace and joy. Let me cut in real quick. Let's talk about when you were 12. That hope is a source of peace and joy.
Speaker 1:Let me cut. Let me cut in real quick. Let's talk about when you were 12, was your mom a believer then? What was her faith like?
Speaker 2:Mom was a Catholic. She was a very strong Catholic, okay, and and so we did not. But she had denounced her Catholicism because she just thought that it was more of a ritual than a relationship. So she had recognized that that's not what she wanted to ultimately pursue. So we ended up going to a Methodist church. But then she got sick. So really our focus on our family was really to take care of her, and so she was in and out of hospitals quite a bit. But I do know that friends of hers, a number of friends who I'm friends with now, say that she had a strong faith in Christ. It's just that when she got sick, of course my dad's and mom's focus was on getting her well, and back in those days in the 60s, you really didn't talk about that.
Speaker 1:So what do you mean? Talk about the 60s for a second.
Speaker 2:In the 60s, you didn't really talk about cancer, or you didn't talk about sometimes very deep things like breast cancer, or you didn't and know, and and and. In the sixties, you, there were shows like the Mary Tyler Moore show where the husband slept in. You know, the husband and wife slept in twin beds. You didn't. It was. It was a little bit more of a, a few decades of purity where, where certain things were discussed in certain parts. So mom and dad never shared with us that mom was sick or that she was dying. We never knew that. So and it wasn't to be disrespectful to us, it was really to protect us, sure, that's. What I mean is that those things were discussed in our household.
Speaker 2:But she was gone quite a bit and I didn't really know why it was, because she was going to hospitals, even outside of dallas, and so we, but, but brenda and I were still going to church. We were going to a wonderful methodist church and, uh, but we didn't pray as a family and do some of the things that that my, that bob and I did with our son william. But but my friends, uh, my mom's friends that I became very, very close with in the years following her passing said that she had a wonderful faith, that she had a very strong faith, and actually that's what kept her engaged, which is being persevering and being strong, Because she was an athlete she was a world-famous athlete, so she had that perseverance, but her faith is what kept her moving forward. But it wasn't something, chris, that was really discussed in our in our family.
Speaker 1:And I think that's just something that's shifted over time. Back then that would have been like almost rude probably to talk about such things, and today that's sort of seen as being completely closed off and inauthentic. It's so funny how just things change. So talk to me then, about how many people have you been able to minister to, who've had loss, who've been grieving. Did God open up a door for you? Even at 12 or beyond? Even with your own son, obviously? But in between 12, your own son and beyond, how many people have really come up to you and said like I need you to walk me through this struggle?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, it's been kind of my life. Work is my ministry is a ministry of suffering, and I'm not a pastor, I'm not a psychologist, but it is what I do. For example, a man who my third grade teacher, I was very, I was very, very close with my third grade teacher for life and she had a third grader in her in her class who had just lost her mom, called the father to have me involved in the little girl's life. I became so involved in the little girl that I took her to camp and I took her on trips, just because the father wanted me to breathe into her hope and joy. And that's why I was going to say that God is a God of hope. And what hope does? It unleashes joy and peace. But the only way we get that then is trusting in god. So by trusting in god, that unleashes hope, which then is the joy. So that's how we can have joy in our life.
Speaker 2:So so throughout my life, oh, chris, I mean people have literally reached out to me and asked me, and also I I'm just kind of sensitive to where people are and I've spoken a lot and in my book is all about that is is encouraging people who are in dark places and desert experiences. Um and, and I love to reach out to people. As a matter of fact, my dad came to know Christ through Bob's and my journey, through our cancer journey, and I shared the gospel with him when I became 16, because it was one of his employees that shared the gospel with me. So from 16 on, I shared the gospel with my dad, but he was just so heartbroken and sad.
Speaker 1:So even with your mom, when she died as a believer, he was not there.
Speaker 2:He was not. Well, some people would have said he was. I was a little young for that because he led Bible studies in the Navy. But I think what happened and I'm sure this happens to your listeners and it happened to me while I wasn't a Christian at the time when something like that, a crisis, happens, it's almost like you can shake your fist at God and say, god, how can you allow that to happen? God, if you love me, why would you allow that to happen? How can a good God allow bad things to happen? It's called the odyssey, but I think my dad was so crushed. The weight of the world, this loss, chris, because he adored my mom, adored my mom just broke his heart and so I think for a while, for a long while, he was just angry at god and couldn't get past that anger and that brokenness yeah, I mean that's and yeah it does.
Speaker 1:and your mom, she wasn't like super easy live. I mean she did have all these championships, but she had that horseback riding accident that ended her career, and so that was probably, I would say, equally, but very traumatic.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean here. She was number one in the world. She just won her third Wimbledon, was going to defend her US Open title and she, of course, the city of San Diego had given her a horse as a thank you for what she had done to bring motorbodies to this sleepy little town called San Diego. Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Actually a cement truck. I mean, let's just talk about God, but God, literally she had a collision with a cement truck on and on through the street and the cement truck, the chute, caught her leg and tore all the tendons down to the bone and she was never able. I mean, like that nanosecond her career was over. So what she had, what was her identity as a tennis player, literally within seconds, was over, wow. But she did something that taught me that I did something also. That is a healing and I want to share this with you. When her tennis was over, literally overnight, she tried to get back to tournament play but her leg would not withstand the rigors of that elite international playing stage. I mean, you're number one in the world, yet you kind of have to be at the top of your game and everything. And her footwork was really good. That was sped up. So what she did is she took her passion for tennis and she started with her best friend at Tennis Foundation called the Maureen Conley Brinker Tennis Foundation and it is to promote junior tennis and today um is starting 68. So today's um, 56 years later, it's the large, one of the largest junior tennis foundations of its kind in the world because she wanted to give back and help promising young juniors, because she loved tennis so much. She wanted to get back to the sport and there's tournaments that we have around the country and international tournaments to help and to encourage the best junior tennis players that go on to be champions and win grand slams.
Speaker 2:And because of that, when I was sitting on that uncomfortable pew when I was 12 years old and so angry at God, I literally teeth clenched. I said someday, somehow, someway, I'm going to do something to eradicate the scourge of a disease that had taken my mom's life. So when I came back from college I started a nonprofit called Wipe Out Kids' Cancer and half of the net proceeds of the book are dedicated to Wipe Out Kids Cancer and the other half of Restored my book is dedicated. I mean the net sales and proceeds go to both Wipe Out Kids Cancer and the Morning Commonly Brings Tense Foundation. So I started something called Wipe Out Kids Cancer just because I wanted to give back. Because what's important that I've learned, chris? It's important to put grief into action and what I've learned over all these years is that grief isn't a new emotion, nor is activism a new phenomenon.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:But when you blend those two amazing resources together, real healing takes place. In other words, the healing takes place because your other focus is not self-focused, and so, by doing things for others, mom started the foundation. She couldn't play tennis anymore, but she could use the gifts and talents again, the plans and the purposes that God had given her for others. That's beautiful. You know, chris, when tragedy hits and it's not a matter of when, as we've said it's a matter of when because suffering is a universal experience.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:We have to pause, take a breath, just sit for a moment and get those very tattered emotions that have been just unraveled. We have to just get them back in place. But then God wants us to move forward, he beckons us to move forward. We can't stay in neutral forever.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:So we have to.
Speaker 1:Have you ever had to minister to somebody who maybe lost, somebody who was not a believer and had to walk them through, maybe facing the potential of someone's eternity in hell or that darkness? How do you, how do you process with somebody that reality? How have you done that in the past?
Speaker 2:Yes. Well, even on planes, I'll ask, I'll get in a conversation with someone and with the idea of seeing where they are spiritually, and I'll say tell me, what's the foundation of your truth. Tell me, what is it that foundationally determines the way you look at truth? And is it the media? Is it the opinions of your friends? Is it your opinion? Is it what you read? How do you determine what is true? And it's interesting to see what people say. And then I'll say well, let me share what my opinion and where I find truth. And I talk about in the Bible. As you know, we're God. But when I see people and all the time I see broken people who have lost, and I talk to people all the time and people come to me and we talk about again that life and death is just part of life. But the question is not if you're going to die, the question is where do you go after you die? And that's how I started. I also do Evangelism Explosion. It's a program that just says you know, are you at a place in your spiritual life that you know for certain that if you were to die tonight you'd go to heaven? And seeing how people respond, and I will tell the most poignant example in the book that answers that question. I think and this is how I share it with people not this exact what happened, this iconic situation that Bob shared with William about how he was going to die, but it's the way I respond to people.
Speaker 2:So when Bob had his first major surgery, william was six and Bob had always paid William surgery. William was six and Bob had always bathed William and he was in the hospital for a week. So we'd go as far as we could to the hospital as long as we could, and then we had to come back. This was before the St Louis Hospital was his first major surgery and so Bob usually bathed William. But because Bob was in home, I was bathing William. And the first night, the first night, chris William at age six, looked at me and said is daddy going to die? And I said something like, because I was so unprepared for that question, because this was the beginning of a three-year cancer journey, we'd just gotten our diagnosis. So this was like within like three weeks of the surgery. So I said to William daddy doesn't intend to. But I knew that wasn't the right answer. So the next day at the hospital I was visiting Bob while William was at school. I told Bob this. I said, beloved, you need to. When we get you home, which was in five days, you need to answer that question that William asked. And so we prayed that William wouldn't ask me that question.
Speaker 2:So when bob came home, immediately we were bathing william and william looked at daddy, his daddy, and said daddy, are you gonna die? And this is the iconic response of my beloved. He looked, he looked straight in the eye and said William, yes, daddy's going to die. Yes, william died. And then he looked over to me. He said William mommy's going to die too. William mommy's going to die. And then he looked at William and I can just remember this as if it was moments ago and the sweetest, most gentle, most tender voice said William, someday and I hope it's years and years and years from now William's going to die.
Speaker 2:But, william, the question isn't whether daddy's going to die or mommy's going to die or even William's going to die. What matters is where does daddy and mommy and William go after they die? And William accepted Jesus at four and a half years old he was six at the time and he looked at Bob and said oh, daddy, daddy, you'd be in heaven with Jesus. You'd be in heaven with Jesus, you'd be in heaven with Jesus and you have no more pain. Oh, daddy, daddy, that would be such a good thing, and he never asked. William never asked that question again. So what I do to answer your question is I go to the biggest question is we're all going to die. So when people are terminal, I deal with that. We're all going to die. And I find out what the issue is, what the sin is, and then I say, well, I'm going to die too. But the question is, what do we do when we die? So I quickly try and get into the question of eternity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's the struggle that most people have, is it's not? It's for Christians specifically, that they've lost somebody who is not saved, or at least to their knowledge, not saved? How do you walk them through the process of grief of like? I've had this friend, I've had this sibling, I've had this parent, uh, who didn't know Jesus, who was clear that they were not on board, and now we're doing a memorial service and we're trying to celebrate their life, when I don't know what we're celebrating, because there's only darkness looking forward for them. And how do you lean into that? Yes, that is such a great question lean into that.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is such a great question and the way I lean into that is I say well, as believers, we know what the Bible says and we stick to that, that knowing Jesus, that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that knowing Jesus is the way to heaven.
Speaker 2:But we also don't know the character of God and perhaps perhaps in that last breath, in that last moment, and right before they breathe their last breath, that person will all of a sudden faced with their mortality, or even, if it's an accident, you know, all of a sudden something happens and and and there it's immediate death. If in that moment of facing jesus we don't know if there is somehow, someway a recognition like that, like the sinner on the cross next to Jesus, that recognized at the last minute who Jesus was, and I say, you know, damnation can be a reality, but we have a loving God that perhaps in that last moment, I think there's a lot of guilt for people that that have been in church, that are Bible believing, bible preaching churches, and evangelism hasn't on the front, evangelism hasn't been on the front lines of their life.
Speaker 1:They put on the back burner and then all of a sudden, death comes and they're sitting there going like what am I? Oh no, I I messed up, I didn't. And they're really reeling from that. So you've got grief compounded by drive, by guilt, in a sense. Man, I think that's a rough. I feel like that's what I've been ministering to some recently. So how do you, how do you speak life into that?
Speaker 2:Yes, well, as a former people pleasingpleasing, as one who was addicted to people-pleasing because remember that was the track I was on was trying to win the love of God, so it was performance-based. What I say is we have to be bold in our faith, we have to share the gospel, we have to share our wounds and don't worry about offending people. I mean you have to share the gospel, we have to share our wounds and don't worry about offending people. I mean you have to do it with grace and decorum and diplomacy, all that. You know all that. But that's what we're called to do, chris. We are called. We don't have to be a pastor with a robe and sitting in a pastor seat. I mean, we're all ambassadors for Christ, All of us, every single day.
Speaker 2:As a matter of fact, I have about four situations right now of what you were talking about People that I'm praying for right now. One in particular a sibling, is on the edge of death, is an atheist, professed atheist, and we are praying, and prayer is God's tool for getting his work done. So we pray that those that we speak to, that the lord will breathe life into them. But if someone has been lost, has died, we pray that that person somehow, last moment, will know christ. But what that does is it emboldens us that we have to share the gospel even if we're not evangelists, and even if we don't, that's not our strength by living life and mastering the skill of living following what's in the Bible, because my dad always said don't tell me, because so much as you know, pastor Fleck, that people say the number one reason people don't want to be Christians is because they look at people and say that's Christianity.
Speaker 1:I don't want anything to do with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we, as believers, instead of flapping our jowls, we need to be great ambassadors for Christ and when we say we love Jesus and that we follow in the handbook of what the Bible says and we love well and we, we teach truth and we we live lives to the best that we can, following what we know God wants for us. That's what people are watching, so yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it does go back to that idea of you are that bad Like you need to feel the weight of your own sin of omission, of not sharing. Bad Like you need to feel the weight of your own sin of omission, of not sharing, of maybe whatever you did that may have contributed to sin death, whatever. However, jesus loves you enough that he is that good that he died on the cross for your sins. He rose from the dead and you can take that grief, that disappointment, that failure, that whatever, straight to the cross. And there's more grace. There's waves of mercy, waves of grace, as the ocean pounds the coast with waves that are never ending. You have no where they're coming from. It never ends. There is more grace for you. So I always want to just sort of reiterate the fact that let's say you are that bad, cause usually people go to catat, they, they catastrophize their life. I was so bad, I'm like, and I always go yeah, you are, you are that bad, but God is that good.
Speaker 2:And I can. I one other thing. I'm saying amen. I wrote a whole chapter about this, about forgiveness. Forgiveness is a nucleus around which the Bible gravitates because God sent first of all forgave us by sending his son, jesus, to die for us, and on the very cross. That was the most good cross. Crucifixion is the most agonizing death ever created by man. It is the most torturous. I researched it. It's the most torturous man-made death that was ever invented. It was invented by the Medo-Persians and on the cross God forgave.
Speaker 2:So what happens is sometimes we can forgive others or we can ask for forgiveness, but, chris, as you know, there are so many Christians and non-Christians walking around that can't forgive themselves because, to your point, they feel ashamed or they've done something that they feel that's an unforgivable sin. By doing that, that's saying that god isn't good enough. Because god forgave us, we are forgiven, we are cleansed by the blood of jesus, and god loved us so much that his unwavering and outrageous grace loved us so much that he sent his son to die on a cross. Now I have one son who I've already abused, william, and I know you have four sons, as I believe, four, that's right.
Speaker 2:I could not, and maybe you could, but I couldn't sacrifice William. I could not sacrifice William. I could sacrifice myself happily, but I could not sacrifice my only son. God did that. It brings me to tears knowing that God did that not just for believers, but for the most heinous criminals. He sacrificed his son, and if he loves us to your point that much to forgive us, then we have to forgive ourselves, because if we don't forgive ourselves, chris, then we're saying that God's forgiving us just isn't good enough. Well, anything that God does is good enough. It's not only enough, it's more than enough.
Speaker 1:So in your book you address really one of these questions. Here you know, restored, reconnecting lives, broken pieces. Here's the question. I think you do a good job of handling how to return to God in the midst of our anger and pain. How would you summarize that?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. Well, one thing I think is really, really important when life weighs so much and it's crushing us or we're at the end of ourselves which happens rather frequently, you know, for all of us Don't forget to remember all that God has done for you in the past. I mean, his very, god's very goal is we said earlier is to redeem and restore us. And he rescues us, he protects us, he lifts us out of circumstances of our own peril. I mean, just the fact that we're breathing is testimony to god's outrageous grace. Now we might be wounded, we might have bumps and bruises, but the fact that we are breathing is testimony how much god loves us. So don't forget in your brief history, don't have to do is look in our brief history to see what God has done in the past, and he will do it again and again and again. And he's even working behind the scenes right now. Dear listeners, if you are in a tough place, you are exactly where God intends you to be. He is working right now on your behalf. You to be, he's working right now in your behalf. And I want to also say to your beloved listeners and I remind myself of this, chris, so I say this to Cindy often is that and I tell people this is another part of my ministry that helps people move forward when they are really afflicted Don't establish your theology, don't decide on what you think abouted. Don't establish your theology. Don't decide on what you think about God. Don't establish or launch your faith in the middle of a crisis. We need to have our faith anchored deep, deep, deep, so when those crises come and we know we're either in a crisis, leaving a crisis, or about to enter a crisis, when suffering and hard times come that we will be anchored deep again in hope, because we trust in God, which unleashes the hope, which unleashes the joy, because we know that God has a plan and purpose for us. So, dear listeners, do not establish your theology in the middle of a crisis. Yeah, do not launch your faith in anchor deep, and then, when those crises happen and they will happen you are already deep in your faith. And the last thing, chris, I think that's really important and there's so many things, but it's's that community. We cannot do life alone. I saw a billboard once in Dallas, right across from a big hospital, that says oh, I can stand on the roof and I don't need a ladder. You don't need to help me. I was right next to this orthopedic surgeon's practice. In other words, when we do things alone and we are by ourselves and on our own, life will not go well with us. God gives us the gift of relationships. Relationships are such a beautiful gift from God and social connections are really important to establish strength, to establish protection, to establish encouragement, and that's called community. So community is really really important to be in a group of people who love and you can trust and who lift you in times of trouble.
Speaker 1:One of the things that we are all about here at our church is community groups.
Speaker 2:Yes, I know that.
Speaker 1:Talk to me about if you're a person that has a little trust factor, maybe a little time factor, and so it's hard for you to sort of think, lean into Christian community. Because let's just think of, let's think of the people that were in your age and stage when you lost your husband, having a nine-year-old right. That's when everybody has sports and Saturday mornings and practice and as probably with an only child, you have traveling sports and you're going to be doing all over the state, you're going everywhere, and now there's games on Sunday and, listen, I would love to be part of your community. I'm sure it's great, I'm sure it's, but do you understand my life? I have no place for that. Speak into that.
Speaker 2:No bandwidth, I get that. I think you were looking at my life. I think you were my next door neighbor that moved. Yes, well, I say amen to that brother, because it takes time. You know relationships take time, all relationships take time. But even putting your child in a sport, you know, having a group at school that your children can be engaged in, going to church, that's community. Uh, community, just being around people and and and and finding those people where you go, I mean it's pretty easy to find community. You look at sports, that's a community idea. That team was competing for that season. Or church Just having dinners for eight. I didn't do that because I was a little busy. But I've had a community group and I'm a busy person.
Speaker 2:I travel a lot, but on Wednesday night nobody can call me because Wednesday night for 14 years at my home every week I have my community group and I make time for that because my community group we can and one of the brothers of one of our community group members is an atheist and that's one of the ones who's very, very sick right now. We were praying over that young person. I could not do life well without my community group. And when Bob was sick because relationships were so important we had a dear friend who was one of the world's greatest pianists. He toured the world. I mean, he was one of the top pianists in the world but when he would come home from his tours he would come to our home and play on our woefully untuned piano but who has time to tune a piano when you're dealing with cancer with your husband? And he would play for an hour. This man who made a gazillion dollars around the world would come and play and Bob would say his pain was gone during that hour. One time, bob, he had a lot of toxicity so we had blood transfusions and one night a blood transfusion took a lot longer and I'd already put William to bed. William was seven and Bob, sweet Bob called and it was midnight and he said honey, I'm ready to come home now.
Speaker 2:William was in bed and I couldn't leave him. I was like Lord, what do you want me to do? I looked out the window and there across the street was my neighbor. Her light was on. I called her up. I said Mary, mary, what are you doing up at this time of the night? It was midnight and she said quote, waiting for your call. Unquote. Walked over. We didn't get home till 530 that morning. It was just delays. So community, it can be, your neighbors it can be. Do you just naturally have a group of people who you naturally will interact with? And that can be even for a seasoned Chris, sure, but it's mandatory to have a community, because we cannot, life will not go well if we don't have one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that is the struggle that people are having, that they're really having to choose. Are they going to have a? I mean again, sports teams? You're going to know those parents for a season and then they could poof gone and you know as well as I do that, trusting in them, who may not know Jesus or may they do if they're awesome they may but the reality is, if you don't have that, your life is going to be unanchored. You might have Jesus and you're going to have a church that's always available, and then you're going to say something like this I just don't know anybody there, I'm just not connected, I don't know what's going on and it's because you haven't been. The church has always been there. Why doors wide open?
Speaker 1:But what's happened to the business of our culture is we've said I have to, my kid has to have all the best. He can't if my kid doesn't get to that college, if my kid doesn't have the heat. And we live in fear for our children, as opposed to equipping our children to go face the world that they're not going to be the best at everything. They're not going to be the best pianist, they're not going to be the best basketball player. Best football player, baseball player. They're not going to be the smartest, but what they can have is a rooted faith in Christ and have a whole community of people around them that, when the when the bottom drops out of life, that they are right there in the midst.
Speaker 1:So called relationships. Yeah, you desperately need that, and so I would say like I would challenge people that are like they're like, they're so into their, their kids, sports that all of a sudden, sunday morning is jeopardized by that. I'm not listen, I'm not legalistic about it, but what you show your kid as your priority is what they do as an adult. That's what they're going to do and so we forget that moment.
Speaker 1:We're going to miss out on a next generation of trusting Jesus. We're always one generation away from the eradication of the Christian faith. Now, granted God's sovereign, we can all trust and rely on him. However just that part. What are we responsible to do? We're not responsible to make our kids the ultimate baseball player, football player, basketball player, smartest kid ever. We're responsible to train them in the way of the Lord. I think that becomes such a huge priority.
Speaker 2:And I think COVID literally magnified what isolation could do. I mean, you just look at the statistics abuse of alcoholism, just the disintegration of relationships. We need each other because we were isolated and, if anything, that shows how important people are, because it's people that love, it's people that reach out, it's people that love, it's people that reach out, it's people that are hand and feet of christ and we are called to worship god. We are called to have a relationship with christ and by being the hands and feet of christ, we show the world, we model how god has lavished his love on a broken humanity. By reaching out and being that so it takes two. We reach out to love people because that's what we're called to do.
Speaker 2:And it just takes one or two times, chris, when you realize you're alone, and you realize you're alone and that is a really tough place to be and we are relational people and the most important thing that a family can do is teach their children to love Jesus and then that will then just teach them about loving people, because that's what Jesus did.
Speaker 1:Yeah. One last question and then we'll let you roll is what are you hoping your readers are going to gain in their lives after reading this book, and how is what your book offers different from maybe other self-help books in the self-help section of Amazon?
Speaker 2:Thank you, that's a great question. My heart's desire because I have such a heart for people in dark places and desert experiences is that by reading this book, they will move forward in victory when they're in fragile places and again, fragile places could just be discontentment. Where they are, disappointment, it doesn't again have to be that you've lost a child or you've lost a loved one. So to move forward in victory, and my heart's desire is to infuse hope and joy into the lives of my readers and also to remind them of God's goodness and love.
Speaker 2:To remind them that God has a plan and a purpose for them and to help them persevere, but one step in front of the other, when that life just is slammed with hardship. I have lots of stories in the book. One story is about a man and a couple who lost a son and his response it was by murder. It was very, very tragic. His son was about to enter college, he just graduated from high school and sadly was murdered. And this was his response Pain is mandatory, suffering is optional, and what he was saying is that pain, again, is universal and how we respond to that pain is going to dictate whether we're victors in life or victims. So that's the first thing I want to help my readers with, and then what I do. That's a little different than other books.
Speaker 2:At the end of every chapter I have applications, real-life applications, with real-life biblical troops that say how do you move forward, how do you choose, how do you persevere, how do you show compassion when I talk? I have a whole chapter on how do you reach out to others, because a lot of times when a friend or a loved one or someone that you know is suffering people, it's like they evaporate. They don't reach out because they don't know what to say. So I talk about how do you do that? So, and then one chapter is about purpose, again, that God has created each one of us differently. Why are we different? Yeah, as Oswald said, be yourself, Everybody else is taken. So at the end of the chapters are applications about how you do what the chapter is about and biblical truths, because everything that I am saying is not Cindy's opinion, right, it's. I'm just really chronically. I'm just the microphone of God's voice.
Speaker 1:I love it. Well, cindy, thank you so much for your time. I just appreciate you your book. I'm excited for that to reach many, and would you mind praying for all the listeners here on Pastor Flex podcast that they might even in their grief or in Father? It is such a privilege to be a child of yours.
Speaker 2:It's such a privilege to be able to serve you. Lord, the creator of the universe, there are between 100 to 200 billion galaxies. You, lord, you create all that. You still care about what keeps us up at night. You still care about our anxious thoughts, the things that discourage us, the things that just aren't right. Lord, you beckon us to talk to you. You beckon us to lay our petitions at your throne of grace.
Speaker 2:Oh Lord, each one of us, each one of us, has stories, lots of stories about how we've been crushed or we've been disappointed or how suffering has assaulted us. Lord, I pray for listeners right now who have sick, very sick family members or who are really in literally a crucible of having to make decisions. Or, lord are just in a place. They don't know where to turn make decisions, or Lord are just in a place. They don't know where to go.
Speaker 2:Lord, I pray that each one of those precious children they are children of yours will look upward, not look at their circumstances, because circumstances are fleeting, lord, but will look at you, because you have said in your word that you will never forsake us, you will never leave us, and you say the prayer is your tool for getting your work done.
Speaker 2:So I just pray that these precious listeners will reach out to you and pray to you, and that you will give them the peace, the calm, the wisdom, the understanding that you will direct their steps in a way that leads to their purpose and their plan for your plan and their, your plan and purpose for their life. Lord, oh lord, you are great. Without you we are nothing. I thank you, for pastor clef is a ministry lord. I pray, anointing favor and blessing on him and again for all of your listeners. Lord, I feel that you will just lavish upon that hope, which then releases joy, and that has come with trusting in you, because only you and you alone, lord, are worthy of our worship. It is in the name of your precious Son, the name of Jesus Christ, we pray.
Speaker 1:Amen, cindy Brinker-Simmons, ladies and gentlemen, gentlemen, thank you so much for having you. Thank you so much for watching. Until next time, go and have an awesome week. I'll worship.