Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Humility's Role in Church Growth
334: Holland Greig and Jordan Smith join Pastor Plek to share riveting stories of sermons that stirred change, aligning with the teachings of James on practical living and righteousness. As you listen, you'll gain insights into how moving beyond simply enjoying Sunday sermons to truly integrating their wisdom can alter both personal paths and church dynamics. Tune in as they explore the profound impact of addressing internal conflicts and passions, touching on both the root causes of quarrels and the essential pursuit of peace.
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Podcast. I'm your host, pastor Plekken. Joining me in studio is none other than Holland Gregg. How are you, holland? Holland is a pastor at Eastside Community Church and a longtime listener and often cited guest on our amazing and incredible podcast, and also with me is none other than Jordan Smith Excited to be here. Jordan, we're glad you're here, and really we've learned something today. At least Holland learned something is that there's a lot of people who can do work and get paid for it, but not have to show up to the office but maybe like once a week, and that has been very discouraging, I think. Or is that very hopeful? Which?
Speaker 2:one is that very hopeful, which one is very happy for you that you have so many people who can get paid to work for you, um, by their jobs.
Speaker 1:It's wonderful, it's a blessing for the kingdom it's a good, it's a very kingdom oriented thing. So do you not have that at east side?
Speaker 2:I do not have that okay, well, we'll work on that.
Speaker 1:Yet we'll work on that technique for east side community church and pray for that. We'll work on that technique for Eastside Community Church. We'll pray for that. Yeah, we'll pray for that. Thoughts and prayers from Jordan. All right. So here's what we're going to talk about today is we're going to be talking about pride, and really it gets into James's writing. You know he's a practical author and doesn't do a lot of fluff. There's not like an ending. There's a really short intro hey, fluff. There's not like an ending. There's a really short intro hey, it's james here. In the end it just ends. There's no like hey, greetings from everybody, love you guys. Later. It just ends. And so we all appreciate james, especially if you're not a small talker and you're in, especially if you don't like people who long talk. You ever had a long talker?
Speaker 1:all the talkers are the worst. They are the worst. They get in your face, they get in your grill and you're just them and you're trying to escape. But ultimately you want to love them in the moment and minister to them, but sometimes they don't let you. A conversation usually is two-way and when you are a long talker you don't let the other person in Anyway, so that might be a bit of pride on that person's part when they do that. So let's talk about a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. And Holland, in James, chapter three, it said those very few should be teachers and aspire to be teachers because they will be held to a stricter judgment. But when you have a good teacher, he's a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. Have you seen a quality preaching trains to change, change the dynamic of your church? Have you seen quality preaching change the dynamic of your church? Have you seen where quality preaching gets people's life changed?
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course, I think I mean talking about that in my church and my preaching, and how that, yeah, or at our church with your preaching?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I think you recently had someone come up to you and say that your sermon changed their life.
Speaker 2:That's true. Or at your church, with your preaching. I mean, I can think of ways that you've changed my life and brought peace into my life through bringing the word, and I you know there's a few churches that I've been a part of since becoming a Christian. Uh, at each one they were memorable, life-changing sermons that someone made the word come alive for me in a way that, yeah, brought about peace, righteousness, life change in my life. And, uh, thankfully, I mean, god uses preaching. Praise the Lord, jordan. Does that apply to you?
Speaker 1:Like a pastor changing my life. Yeah, no, not just a pastor. The preaching of the word, have you experienced? Or when you hear a sermon, are you like?
Speaker 3:eh, I've heard that before. Oh, I mean I've heard that a lot or have that thought a lot. But sure, like you know, if anyone says they're not changed by the preaching of the word, then you might want to be concerned, right? Yeah, that'd be scary yeah, I'm just curious of where you were on that.
Speaker 2:You know you do all right sometimes okay name the last time chris's preaching changed your life you know.
Speaker 1:See, this is the question. So here's the thing that we I challenge everybody. I said whenever someone comes up say, hey, that was a great sermon, oh, what'd you like about it? Then they go blank, stare and have you ever had that happen?
Speaker 2:absolutely I it's, it's almost. It makes you not want to ask. And, uh, you know, someone said oh man, I really love this part of the sermon where you said to do this. And then you know, I'm like that, you want to ask the question well, did you do it? But you're almost like sure that they didn't do it and it's just going to like totally kill the moment of everyone just being happy, um.
Speaker 2:but I think it's really good to say, well, did you do it? And do the-up, you know, because a lot of the preaching, you know the work of preaching is like sowing the seed, but it still needs to be tended and cultivated, and the work happens all throughout the week, not just on Sundays, that's for sure. All right.
Speaker 1:So this gets into what actually causes quarrels and fights among you, is it not? This is what James writes that your passions are at war within you, and we found out that the word passions is Hedonon, which is where we get the word hedonism from. So it's even though you have a harvest of righteousness being sown, people getting saved and then being fully transformed. Uh, uh, I heard this from, uh, tim Keller not long ago there.
Speaker 1:Um, jonathan Edwards wrote a book called Thoughts on Revival, and Tim talked about it being a really poorly titled book because nobody read it, but he said it was really good because he said whenever the churches in New England were experiencing revival, the revival would end when the arguments started. And I think that was sort of a wild thought that as long as you could keep a harvest of righteousness and peace sown by those in peace, then you wouldn't have. But what happens is and I think this is where our heart is wicked deceitful above all things is that you take you into the church and then your newly converted you hasn't been fully converted, and so your heart is not mature and you still battle and do wicked things, pursuing your passions. Have you seen any of that in your experience?
Speaker 3:yes well, I assume that's why paul talks about giving some people the spiritual milk versus solid food, right yeah?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I've been that person, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think I've caused quarrels and early on in my walk as a Christian, you know I had I got very passionate about certain things. You know that I didn't really a zeal without knowledge, right, and I would start arguments and debates with people in my church or my roommates or in the college ministry that I joined and things like that, at very passionate about them. But you know, didn't know what I was talking about and, um, uh, not always was. You know, not just theological topics, but sometimes, you know, when it says like your passions are at war within you, it's, you know your desires, the things that I think they would include, like you. Just, you have idols, you have things that you're chasing and desiring, um, that you want more than God and more than unity with other brothers and sisters and causes you to fight with others, and I was guilty of a ton of that.
Speaker 1:Uh me too. I think my favorite memory and I've shared this a bunch is I'm at, I'm in seminary, going to you know taking whatever 16 credit hours or something, going you know, taking whatever 16 credit hours or something, and then I would go to church on Sunday and then I would go to the Bible study and I remember saying to the pastor you know, I'm just not really getting fed here. And the guy goes do you mean you're telling me that you're going to eight hours of class a day and you are not getting fed? There's something wrong with you.
Speaker 3:And I was like dang it.
Speaker 1:Uh, and so I, I think, you know, I, yeah, I think that that changed your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, obviously, I mean I still remember it. So, uh, and then at our church, whenever somebody would say, you know, I'm not just not getting fed, I would just be like, ah, there, it is what I said came back to haunt me, you know. And I'm like, okay, well, at least I know where you're coming from, you're you know, I had a genuine heart about it. It was like I wanted the church to do what I wanted it to do, you know, and and anything that you you just call it not getting fed, whatever you're not liking, what is your answer to that? You need to go read your Bible more on your own. Stop whining. That's a good point. Yeah, I mean, if you're not getting fed, it's on you, right, because if the word of God is being preached, yeah, that's what I was going to say.
Speaker 2:I was like there are some churches where they don't preach the word. They do TED talks and they do.
Speaker 1:Okay, fair enough and they do.
Speaker 2:Okay, fair enough. I can't tell you how many people have come and you know I've talked to that, has visited our church or something and and been like man this is the sixth church we've tried and you know every single one. It's like they didn't even teach the bible. It was like an inspiring message and story, but it wasn't the word and right. If that's the situation, then yeah, you're not being fed. But if the book is open and the word is being preached, you are being fed. Right? That what you need.
Speaker 1:And I think maybe that's the part where exposition of scripture is is a huge part of what our church does, and knowing that that's not the case at all churches, that makes you go. Well, at some point you go. There's a lot of people who are being fed. So either this isn't the church for you or you're got some issue going on.
Speaker 1:But I remember when I first became a Christian, I was excited and hungry for the word. I remember going to cruddy path not cruddy cruddy like small churches that the word was. They didn't work on it, but they read the Bible and I was like, wow, that was great. I didn't know that. You know, I was excited about that. What you know, like it wasn't, they weren't, that wasn't what they were spending their whole life doing. It was, it was good, it was true. And I still got something from it. And only when my own heart got dark did it turn from uh, uh, a God's word to like, ah, cruddy little, whatever. Does that make sense? I think that's where my own heart got in the way of that. What were you gonna say?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just going to say like the context of this is that you are, you want to be friends with the world. Um, you want, and so the passions at war within you are, like you know, worldly passions mixed with. You know, you want God, but you also want the world. You're one foot in, one foot out and um, and you know, I think sometimes when people say, oh, I'm not being fed, I'm not content, I'm not this, I'm not that, it's really that like you're trying to get the world and you know that's your number one priority even is like I want to have these kind of worldly things and they're not making me happy and then I blame the church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and because I love the Ed Stetzer quote. Like, the church is where we get our religious goods and services. And whenever you feel like you're not as a consumer, your, your needs aren't being met or your, your desires aren't being met, then you quarrel and fight and find a place for your voice to be heard, as opposed to become part of the solution I love. In verse two it says you desire and don't have, so you murder. And the desire here is the word epithumeo, which epi is like ultimate or over, like ultimate thing. Thumeo is passion, like the ultimate desire, the ultimate want. And so that becomes like, you know, when Jesus says unless you, you know, love me more than your own, father, mother, wife, all the things you can't, you don't have any part of me. It's like when you have a desire that's greater than God, even though you want God, you don't want God. And that's where the you know you can't serve two masters. And when you start serving two masters, that's where, on the one hand, you're trying to serve Jesus, on the other hand, you're serving you and you can't do both. Right, yeah, so the big one is here in verse four you adulterous people.
Speaker 1:And I thought this was funny because it's second person plural just adulterous is, or probably. What if? If it were, you know old Testament writing and be like whores? You whores. Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore, whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. And I think this is where I think some people have taken this verse to mean let's circle the wagons and put our weapons facing out and make sure we are safe on the inside of the church, and the bad guys are out there. And the thing I want to point out is that the bad people were the ones inside the church that are quarreling and fighting. But how can it be, how could you be a friend of the world but still be talking about how Christians interact with each other? What do you think?
Speaker 3:Friend of the world, but how Christians interact with each other.
Speaker 1:So he's not saying circle the wagons right.
Speaker 3:I don't even know how anyone gets that from that.
Speaker 1:Oh man like can't be a friend of the world, and I think that's because they don't understand how people are geared and wired. I I say because, and then they. And then the thing for me it's like james is writing to a particular group of people who are proud christians, calling their behavior defending, defending the truth. Like you know, in my days of like I'm just not getting fed, I'd be like we need to defend the truth, we need to have the Bible read and proclaimed, and you're not doing it right, as opposed to my preference of them not doing it my way, or at the right time, or at the right whatever. I think that's the immaturity of it, and so that was my pride creeping in there, and I think that's. It wasn't circle the wagons, it was fixed the get your house in order on the inside.
Speaker 3:Well, I assume, even like Christians unrepentant maybe at this point, like that would be enmity with God at that point, right, they'd be in that same category.
Speaker 1:Yeah, category, yeah, oh for sure. Yeah, that's how I always read that. Yeah, well, that's good, because I think a lot of times this verse gets taken out context of like um, you know, you don't drink custard chew or go with girls who do, you know, it's like that sort of mentality that's a great one. I've never heard that. It's a classic. Uh, and that's not what it's meaning. And I.
Speaker 1:What I also love is you know when you can contrast this with first corinthians five, five, nine, where Paul wrote I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with the sexually immoral people, not all meaning the sexual immoral of this world, or the greedy and the swindlers, or a dollar. Since then you would have to need to go out of the world, um, and then he wrote later I've become all things, all people that might save some. In other words, I feel like sometimes people pit James and Paul against each other. Like you're a friend of the world, and that was James was calling out proud Christians, calling their behavior defending the truth, and then Paul was calling out Christians calling the behavior showing grace.
Speaker 1:So you can have like this legalistic sense of like this, there's a right way to do church and you're doing it wrong, that's legalism. And then licent this legalistic sense of like there's a right way to do church and you're doing it wrong, that's legalism. And then licentiousness is like, no, we just want to show people grace and love and peace, and look how welcoming we are. That, honestly, I think you know. The first Corinthians 5 motif is the kind of the heartbeat of the church right now. Well, now a lot of progressive churches have sort of leaned that direction and haven't been able to um sort of pull back on the darkness that they've been espousing anyway so you know in the first corinthians one.
Speaker 2:He says I wrote to you because you're basically saying you know, some people think what. What James is saying is don't be, don't be friends with anyone in the world, right. He says go be Amish, yeah, don't. Don't. You know, uh, associate with non-Christians at all, right, um? And but then Paul says, uh, I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people, not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, since then you would need to go out of the world, right.
Speaker 2:But then verse 11, he says but now I'm writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of a brother, yep, if he's guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard or swindler. Not even to eat with such a one. I think that's what friendship with the world means. It means that calling yourself a Christian while still living in the ways of the world and saying, yeah, it's fine, there's grace, I'm a Christian, I can, you know, sleep around and worship idols and get drunk, and it's all fine because of grace. That's being friends with the world. So it's not saying don't relate, don't have friendships with people in the world, right. It's saying don't call yourself a Christian and live like the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's it and I think that's yeah. That's where I feel like the proud Christians calling their behavior. I'm just showing grace to those people or being those people like God, just you know, giving me grace. Then there's a part where you shouldn't be so secure in your salvation when you have unrepentant sin, where you're like, oh, no, like I don't, it's got the classic I don't need to go to church to be a Christian. It's like, yeah, but then are you like, yeah, that should. Should be like like, don't neglect the meeting with one another, as some are in the habit of doing, but all the more as you say, the day drawing near, as we get closer to end times, your desire should be hey, I, and it is, we are in the end times, as you are, the closer we get to the end times, we should have a deeper desire to fellowship, be closer with christians. Um, that sometimes can harm our evangelistic outreach, because then we get to the end times. We should have a deeper desire to fellowship, be closer with Christians. Um, that sometimes can harm our evangelistic outreach because then we get so inward focus. But, uh, I do think that's a part of the Christian life is, uh, mediating those two of like being more like surrounding yourself with believers and then having a heart to reach the lost. Yep, um, okay, the next thing that, uh, um, okay, the next thing that, uh.
Speaker 1:I thought and I want to ask you about Han. He yearns, verse five. He yearns jealously over the spirit that he's made to dwell in us. Uh, in Exodus we find out that God calls himself a jealous God, and that's a good thing. Uh, in fact, you would say, like we, we probably need to check more into the word of jealousy versus envy. Maybe it might be a good way to put that Jealousy being like I'm affectionate for, I'm protective of the things that are mine, versus I want and I desire the things that are yours. And so God says that we are his and he's jealous for us, in the same way that a husband is jealous over his wife, you know, in a positive way. And maybe this is this is this is my theory, and so I would love to hear your take on this. My theory is is because the jealous husband um caricature has become so extreme that men have felt like emasculated in their ability to um lead their wife or to be protective protective of their wives have you seen that at all?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, you don't want to be so like if you're, I think if you're a very jealous person, um, in general it's like, okay, you're insecure, You're not confident in who you are, and so you're jealous and worried and anxious always you know, checking your wife's phone and stuff like that and so I think you're like, okay, I don't want to be that, Right, but you know, maybe swung all the way to the other side of like, yeah, I love that my wife has like a bunch of dude friends and hangs out one-on-one with them and like I'm so confident, like that's weird too, now we've gotten a bit far right, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so, like you know I think you asked the question, okay is it good for your wife's eyes and heart and mind to be for you alone? Yeah, yes. Should you want what is best for your wife? Yes. So, therefore, should you want your wife's eyes and heart and mind to be for you alone? Yes, you should. I think that's yearning jealously for your wife's affection, because that is ultimately what's best for her and what's best for your marriage. It's not coming from a place of insecurity, it's coming from what is best for the souls to wander away from God. And so his yearning jealously for us is because he desires our good. I just see us, lewis, you know, defined love as a steady desire for the beloved person's good, and so God has a steady desire for our good. That means, when we drift from him, he's jealous for us to come back, because you know he yearns for us to come back, because he loves us, and that's what's best for us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love how verse six which you don't expect it to come from James, where he goes, but he gives more grace, which is exactly what you expect a Christian pastor to say that God is jealously yearning for you and so therefore gives you more grace. And so, because he gives you grace, he opposes for you and so therefore gives you more grace. And so, because he gives you grace, he opposes the proud. And so if you're a proud person, he is not just like nah, you're right, whatever you do you, he's like no, I'm going to oppose you. And this is like the classic parenting move, right, like if I, when I see other kids doing things that I would not approve of, I don't go and discipline them. They're not my kid, I'm like not that, I'm like ah, whatever, but like that's not my role. And so for Christians, god's role is to discipline, to say no, to oppose you, and then gives grace to those who are humble in the opposition, saying oh, you're right, my bad, I've sinned. And then he restores you. Oh, you're right, my bad, uh, I've sinned, and then he restores you. I think that's the beauty of what we're talking about here, and I think the struggle for a lot of this is we don't see. We see when people say no or when anyone says no, that that's them being mean or controlling. Uh, especially I think in our culture, sexually is where that usually goes. But with your money, with your time, anytime someone says no to you, it's like oh, that's so controlling, right, I think also, yeah, I think that's just appreciated that.
Speaker 1:Then you get into James 4, 7, and 8. Submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil. He will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you.
Speaker 1:I love this one because I think I think I read this in like purpose driven life, like forever ago, by Rick Warren, but it stuck with me you are as close to God as you choose to be AW Tozer. Oh, it was AW Tozer. Okay, thank you. I was like I don't know where I got that from, uh, but it was like that was so powerful for me Like to go I'm as close to God as I choose to him. Yep, resisting the devil and I. There is this part of me, I think sometimes, like I, we've all said this I feel spiritually dry and then the question goes or I feel spiritually far from God. Then the question has to be who moved right, like who is the one that drifted away? It wasn't God, it was you. Yeah, how have you seen, just in your own pastorate, how have you seen people drift and then all of a sudden go like I just feel far from God or you know like that. That sort of reality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, you know it's very common that it's just like man life got busy and you know I got, I got married or I had kids or my job, or you know I'm doing more school or something, and you know those things take priority time, intimacy and time in God's presence gets pushed out of the way. Then I feel far from God and you know, I think a lot of people will go to um, you know that it's just someone else's fault for some reason. You know it's the church's fault or it's God's fault or you know. But what you're saying is you know who moved God is. He's not far from any of you, 17. Right, and so I think for us to just understand that concept is like you're as close to God as you want to be.
Speaker 2:Do you want to be closer to God? You can, you know, right, you, god, as you want to be. Do you want to be closer to God? You, you can. You can open your Bible and get on your knees, you can pray and read and God will meet you. You know, you, you, you can have an encounter with God as often as you'd like and, um, I think, when I've so, at pastoring people, when I've shared that I've preached, preached a sermon I don't know a few months ago where I shared that exact quote, actually, and talked about that and you know. But there's some people that really push back and they're like, no, I'm trying to feel close to God and I don't. And so I think in most cases, like it, the reality is people feel far from God because they aren't seeking him or prioritizing him. But there are some times where I think about um, like Psalm 13 and David saying you know, why do you hide your face from me? And like Psalm 88,.
Speaker 2:Psalm 88, I just like I feel like I am seeking you and I just still feel so distant from you, and sometimes that may be because of, um, some unrepentant sin in our life. Sometimes it may be just that you're going through suffering and it feels like how can God be close to me when all this hard stuff's happening? And so I do think it's multifaceted and kind of complex, but a lot of. In general, I would agree Like you are as close to God as you want to be, because James 4, 8 says draw near to him, he'll draw near to you.
Speaker 1:So what about you, Jordan? Would you ever put yourself in that category where you read verse 8, draw near to God and he will draw near to you, and your reaction is like yeah, that's nice, those are nice words, that's a nice sentiment, but I've experienced not that I mean absolutely yeah. So tell me about that, like how you've experienced, like I tried to draw near to God and then it didn't work, or like I guess work is the operative word here.
Speaker 3:Uh, yeah, I mean, I, for me, it's I gosh how do I say this in words? Uh, you know, I'd pursue God, I'd go to church, I'd read my Bible, but I would always still have this feeling of like loneliness, uh, being single, especially at age 36. Uh, but yeah, it's like, how can God, what is your? What is the point of going through this suffering? You have me going through Right Like. But I think, kind of to touch on what Holland said too, those are just feelings. I feel like. You know, feelings aren't truth too.
Speaker 1:Those are just feelings. I feel like you know feelings aren't truth. So yeah, for you like one. And when you get to those, what? What leads up to feeling like that? So what I mean by that is when you have moments of feeling far from God. Usually it's something precedes that, like I stopped reading my Bible, I stopped going to church, I stopped doing something. Was there something where you stopped doing something? Or is this like the cliff? Just like you're? You're doing all those things and boom, you just feel far.
Speaker 3:Uh, you know I struggle with depression, so I feel like that might be the cliff you're talking about sometimes, where I just get the rug pulled out from under me.
Speaker 1:What do you mean by it? Explain depression for those of us who don't experience it on the regular, like who have no idea what that's like. It's just like your day is going great and then it's just like do you feel like a doom feeling in your stomach, or is it like anxiety straps you? Or is it like futility? Life's not worth it.
Speaker 3:I mean all the things I guess, but as of the latest one I've felt is just like this sense of dread and I can't even really explain that it just came on me. I'm like Whoa what the you know what the heck is this?
Speaker 1:So tell me okay. So when you get that feeling of dread, does it happen like you're just driving along? You know you just got off the phone as a happy conversation or whatever? Just someone said, hey, great job at work. You're like, or you know I have to work. You know three hours a month and get paid for you know 80 hours a week and then all of a sudden, one day you just feel empty or tell me what the dread is.
Speaker 3:It's just like an onset just like like you said, just you know, get off the phone, have a conversation it's just like that you know it's just like right after.
Speaker 3:So you could say that's the devil trying to. You know mess with having a good conversation, encouraging thing, and then discouraged right after type thing. It's hard to explain. And so how do you recover from that Cognitive training, in the sense of when I feel or think those ways to combat them with positive thoughts and also with scripture. But sometimes I can feel empty as well, like David, like y'all were saying right, like why are you hiding your face from me? I mean, I feel that way sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's why the Psalms are there, and Psalm 88 specifically ends with and darkness is my only friend. Yay. There's a lot of Psalms that start with why do you hide from my face for me, and then it ends with a positive upbeat I know God, my Redeemer, will come save me.
Speaker 3:He does it well for the most part, but there's also those times in Psalms that it doesn't.
Speaker 1:There's one out of 150 where it's just going to be an awful day, which is hard, but it's good to recognize that that's a part of the Christian experience. I don't think it's supposed to be the normative Christian experience, although you know, you have Jeremiah the weeping prophet, you have examples of people who had some hard times. Elijah had hard times, but then he also had great intimacy with God, and so I think that's where, uh, there has to be in your soul, where do you? When your soul is downcast, there needs to be a pep talk to your soul. Why are you so downcast? Oh, my soul, look up, you know. Like that is literally what the Psalmist says. Yeah, a pep talk. Like it's wild to think about. Pep talks are in the Bible, but they sure are like look up, put your hope in him, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:More than pep talk, it's preaching. Yeah, you're preaching to your own soul.
Speaker 3:And it's like you said, god's word, god's people, god's spirit. Yeah, so like for me, if there's a specific someone I know who can kind of relate or empathize well with what I'm going through, I'd reach out to them, not people that just say have you tried not being depressed? There are those people out there.
Speaker 2:Watch out for them? Have you tried not being depressed?
Speaker 1:That kind of advice works on me. I literally had a pastor say that.
Speaker 2:That's a good point. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I might actually go. I can see that. No, but like someone said to you, have you tried not being gay? Yeah, yeah, and how did that work out?
Speaker 3:Still waiting, still trying, apparently. Not trying hard enough. I guess you know God, where are you at.
Speaker 1:Well, what I wanted you to kind of see here is the response to draw near to god, or like the next steps, if you will, of drawing near to god is cleanse your hands, purify your hearts, be wretched, mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.
Speaker 3:That's the verse right there that I was talking about earlier okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:So this is it. It's like you need to your. It's cleanse your hands, your actions, purify your hearts, your affections, and be mourn and weep your thinking. So it's a hands, hearts, heads, and all three of those go into the Christian life. And when your hands are doing the wrong thing, well, then you're going to feel dark and wicked. When your heart is feeling the wrong thing, you're going to do you're going to feel the darkness. And when your head thinks wrongly about who you are and what you deserve, then you're going to do. You're going to feel the darkness. And when your head thinks wrongly about who you are and what you deserve, then you're going to struggle as well. And that's why humble yourselves before the Lord. He will exalt you. It's like that, drawing near to God. You can only do that through humility and he will lift you up.
Speaker 3:Well, so yeah, the let your laughter return to mourning and your joy to gloom. Is that essentially saying like, if you're laughing, but in unrepentant sin, that that's when you should turn it to mourning, or I don't understand that verse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like actually grieve your sin instead of just being nonchalant and casual, like I think of when I, when I talk to my kids, you know, and I'm doing like a intense discipline moment of like hey, this was not okay, and I'm saying all this, and they're just like looking at each other and like giggling and I'm like you know, I'm going to increase the intensity of the conversation there, cause I'm like man, be broken over it. Like do you not realize what you did was really disrespectful, or you really hurt someone's feelings, or you really hurt that kid or whatever. It was like be broken over it. Um and so sometimes I think we can do that Like we stand and then we're just so casual about it and we're like why do I feel far from God when sometimes it's you need to mourn and grieve your sin and really repent from it?
Speaker 1:Cleanse your hands. This is coming on the heels of God. Opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. So the proud person who does feel far from God is needs to be wretched more than we to recognize what Jesus has saved them from Got it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's so helpful. I did have a question about the verse uh resist, uh the devil and he will flee from you. Yeah, is flee in that connotation Like cause? When I hear the word flee, I think of someone who's scared and running away. Is that kind of what that word means in terms of the devil doing that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's not a bad interpretation. I can give you the exact Greek word here. I would love the exact Greek word. I appreciate that you do. Let's see. Okay, let's see. It is right here. Um, I hold on. I think it's right here. Uh, right here. Yeah, he will flee from you. Flee is the word Um, phase a tie, phase a tie. To flee away, seek safety by flight, shun or avoid by flight something abhorrent to be saved by flight, to escape safely out of danger. Um, yeah, who's the tie?
Speaker 3:what almost makes it sound like the resistance of the devil, like harms him almost, if that, yeah, I mean like that's the way I kind of read.
Speaker 1:Remember, the commodity that the devil lives off of is worship, and so whenever you know you are a slave to whomever you obey, and when you obey the devil, then that builds him up. When you resist the devil, he that tears him down, and I think that's what you're seeing here. Any thoughts on that, on on resisting the devil and him fleeing for you?
Speaker 2:I think if you think about what it practically looks like to resist the devil, we know that he's a liar and a murderer, as you know at least those two things Jesus says. You know he's a liar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, from the beginning, that's who he is. So, to resist the devil, I think a lot of it has to do with rejecting his lies by standing on the truth of God's word, and that there is. There is a fleeing that happens at um, at that taking. Let me get in on that. Yeah, you are worthless. You are, you know, and the enemy starts bringing these lies, um into your mind. Um, there is a uh, something really powerful that happens when you go. You know I'm I. I'm created by God for good works, he that he planned before him. I'm the God's workmanship, his masterpiece. My life has enough worth for Jesus to give himself on the cross. You know, I'm beloved, chosen in Christ from before the foundation of the world. You start standing on those truths. The enemy flees, turns tail and runs. Um got to find somewhere else to uh, to work, because the truth of God's word is, you know, formed a shield and a refuge for this person.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's kind of what I was saying earlier about speaking the word over those hard times. Yeah, it can feel kind of rote, but it works.
Speaker 1:Oh nice.
Speaker 3:And it works better over time the more you do it.
Speaker 1:And so what I love that that last part is he says humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you. And I think when most people quote this verse they're thinking like Holland, humble yourself before the Lord and he will exalt you. And that's not how it's written. It says humble yourselves before the Lord and in Texan it would be and he will exalt y'all. Like it will lift up the church when you humble yourselves before the Lord, because now you're going to be kind to one another, you're not gonna be backbiting against one another, and that becomes really powerful.
Speaker 1:And then the next verse is don't speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks evil against a brother or judges brother speaks evil against the law and judges law. And so what we're seeing here is, I think, like this reality where we need to be humble within the church and the way we speak to one another, and but it's our pride that always gets us in trouble. We might be, we might be really humble before God ourselves, but then all of a sudden we get around other people and we want to remind everybody how smart, smarter, better, stronger we are than everybody else. Uh, have you ever seen that? Uh, in your life? Jordan.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's just pride in general, that's in every church, right sure? Absolutely uh, yeah, I mean I've had people kind of maybe going back to what holland said in the beginning, but just kind of debate for the sake of debating, like yeah, it's like, are we seeking truth here or are you seeking to be right, say you won type thing? Cause that those conversations kill me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the funny thing is, as the the one who judges, or one who speaks against his brother judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. And the question I was like, what law are we talking about here? And I think this would be like the great commandment to love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, mind commandment to love the Lord, god, with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. And the second, like it is to love your neighbor as yourself. And so when you judge another person, you are judging the law, because you're putting yourself above the law, saying look at how bad that person is. I didn't don't need as much grace or as much whatever, because I've somehow elevated myself. And that's the problem of not understanding the gospel, because we're all broken at the core, and so that's why you know who are you to judge your neighbor. And this gets into, you know, the classic judge, not the be not judged, from Matthew seven.
Speaker 1:Usually, people say only God could judge me, and they kind of go thug life and what that. What they're saying is like just I can do whatever I want, don't judge me, yeah. What we're saying here is, though, that live a life of holiness so much that you're not looking to point out everybody else's flaws but you're humble and repenting from your own. I think that's really the aspect we're trying to get to right. What's the hardest thing, do you think? Holland? And helping people to recognize they're the problem versus you know, usually, like in every marriage counseling, it's usually one person is pointing out the flaws of the other and then you go into a lot of like no, well, you did this, or it's just a lot of finger pointing back and forth, and that's really hard to stay humble within a church environment, which is a family probably a great example of a church environment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it's just two different ways of viewing life. You know it's, uh, it's goes all the way back to the beginning of Adam and Eve. And well, it was the woman you gave me and well, it was the serpent. You know that like it's that a core self-protection, I think. Type of mentality of like you know it's that a core self-protection, I think. Type of mentality of like you know, it's someone else's fault and they're the problem.
Speaker 2:And we've a new Jesus taught us to not think like that, explicitly Right. Taught us to be able to judge with right judgment by first taking the log out of your own eye to see clearly the speck in your brother's eye. And so it's a different way of thinking that, really, I think you can only become proficient in by walking closely with Jesus. And when you walk closely with Jesus and you spend time in his word, you read your word, you're convicted of your own sin and you're just when you, when you spend time daily feeling conviction about your own sin and confessing it and asking God for grace, it gives you a lot more grace for other people.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that. I got a question about this that came in. It says it's deeply troubling when we learn about pastors who are expected to be paragons of virtue and moral leadership within their congregations, only to find out they've been leading the double life congregations, only to find out they've been leading the double life. Take, for instance, the recent case in Dallas involving Robert Morris, where trust was shattered by allegations of moral corruption, specifically the molestation of a minor. This situation raises a critical concern for many. How can we truly ascertain that our pastor's moral integrity is genuine? With congregations tithing millions believing in the righteousness of their spiritual leader, the betrayal can be profound. The truth is, the private life of a pastor often remains hidden under a scandal until a scandal breaks. So how can we ensure that we're not unwittingly supporting someone who might be morally corrupt behind the scenes Like how do you, how do you have pastors be humble within their own church?
Speaker 3:What were? You gonna say Jordan, well, no, you just you can't be sure of those things. It's all on God. And I don't know hearing what they were saying about tithing. They made it sound like they're tithing to a specific pastor, which is what are you doing at that point?
Speaker 3:You need to be tithing with a cheerful heart to God, right, but pastors are just people too. They're going to have moral failures. I think I mean kind of what you said on stage though, of those dark thoughts you have, like it's those kinds of things like that you bring to the light and make yourself more relatable and accountable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like what you said, cause with congregations tithing millions we're, we're waiting for our million here, uh a year. Well, you know, to be fair we, our budget's 1 million here, uh, a year. Well, you know, to be fair, we our budget's one million a year. I guess we need to be too many to be in the millions which I guess you know anyway. Um, with congregations tithing millions believing in the righteousness of their spiritual leader, I think the righteousness you need to believe in is jesus well, yeah, yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:I think what they mean by that, though, is the trustworthy there are. There are qualifications for elders that you know need to, moral qualifications that need to be met, and you know the expect. I think it's fair to expect pastors to fulfill those, but also you know, and there's a way to remove them if they're not. Yeah, and because knowing that you know, like Jordan was saying, like pastors are people and we will fail and we will stumble, you know, and you want to set up healthy systems of accountability and, at the same time, just know, like you can't ensure someone does not fall, like you can't ensure that, but I love this, you can be wise yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1:In first timothy three, the eight sort of ends on. After goes the list of, like you know, not be a drunkard, not violent, gentle, not quarrel, so not love her money, manage his own household, etc. Etc. He must not be a recent convert. Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders so that he may not fall into disgrace. Yeah, which a lot of the pastors in dallas, uh, I think. Is it steve lawson? Is he the latest guy? Robert morris obviously had something.
Speaker 1:That robert morris's thing happened like 40 years ago, not that it wasn't bad, but it was a 40 year ago. I don't even know if he was pastor of gateway, yet when he he, um, I think it was, he had either sex or molested or something. A minor, uh and bad, awful, um, but 40 years previous. I don't know if there's anything that had happened during his span of his entire career, because he was like right about to retire when that came to the light. So it's kind of a wild deal. But I totally get what they're saying. It's like who know if they're? You know, was that the just the tip of the iceberg? Were there others along the way of robert morris's career? That's what make you would ask that. Or tony, tony evans in dallas, where I was just like dadgummit tony, you're like one of my favorite pastors of all times and there's an undisclosed thing of something, something, and so who knows what that was yeah, I think, uh, I don't know.
Speaker 2:It seems like a lot of the scandals we've heard about and it makes sense have been at fairly large churches and so, obviously, like there's stuff, you know, smaller churches where people don't know the pastors you're not going to hear news stories as much about those.
Speaker 2:But still I do think that the bigger a church gets, the easier it is for pastors to hide and be private and secretive and become really more just like speakers or preachers than pastors who are actually among the people. Um, and so something that you know as a church increases in size and scale, something that can become um more difficult or dangerous. But, you know, in a smaller church where everyone kind of knows the pastor, you got more access to his life. It's not really I don't know. I think there's certain things, um, certain environments that, uh, you know are more advantageous or less advantageous to these things, as well as things like having a plurality of elders and having a, um a lead pastor who's submitted to another body rather than just kind of lone wolf doing it on his own. I think there are some structures and environments and systems that can be helpful, but at the end of the day, you can't ensure that someone does not sin.
Speaker 1:Right, and I think that goes into like the weekly accountability or maybe, you know, even might be more than that, but the regular accountability of a pastor with an elder council, yeah, and you can pray for your.
Speaker 2:I mean a lot of people. They don't regularly pray for their pastors and then you know, the pastor falls and it's like you know, there's this anger and frustration. But also it was like have you spent any time praying for your pastor, do you? You know, like I think there's a lot that the church body can grow in to support pastors and living a godly and healthy life. Um, yeah, that's part of it too.
Speaker 1:Did you know? October was pastor appreciation month.
Speaker 2:I do yeah.
Speaker 1:Did you get appreciated? I did get appreciated what?
Speaker 2:happened. Our staff team, nadine, who is our admin fund director, worship. She shared some things encouraging things, honored me, encouraged the church to pray for me yeah, just said some wonderful encouraging things. Uh, offered prayer and support to me. So I felt very special. That is so great yeah.
Speaker 3:I got a story of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Uh well, you already know I pray for you, but thanks. You're welcome Thoughts and prayers, that's good. But gosh took me off my train of thought. There but a few months. A few months ago you had mentioned and it's kind of funny because you actually mentioned it today as well about pastors get the most discouraged the day after their Easter sermon. So whenever you said that a few months ago, I literally put a note for that calendar day to check in Look at that.
Speaker 1:Hey, look at that. That's what I'm talking about. Thank you.
Speaker 3:I wasn't going to tell you, but it seemed appropriate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, I think on the day after Easter. That's when you need to check it on me, because that's when the devil comes. Already know it's planned. So give me the encouragement the day after Easter.
Speaker 1:And it can't be like I did a great job, because then you're like well crud, now I have to live up to that.
Speaker 1:Uh, it has to be along the lines of like hey, I value you as a human, you know what I mean Like something along those lines and not and not that anyone who says you did a great job or there's a great talk or whatever, that's not a great thing to say.
Speaker 1:I just think sometimes you just feel desperation of like how can I top that? I just spent like 20 hours a day for the past whatever weeks trying to get that one sermon right, and now I have an expectation to be that one sermon right, and now I have an expectation it's gonna be that good every time or something along those lines. And that's sort of I know that's insane, that's beyond probably what most people think, but there is a reality that, like when you do well and you're you get the applause for the doing well, you then sort of feel like, oh no, I have to do well, which is, you know, obviously a lie from the pit of hell. But when you'd want to talk about um that the day after you know you start to think all spirit, spiritually skewed stuff, um, and that you don't, you're not thinking right. Yeah, have you ever, after easter service, felt that low um, like the next day?
Speaker 3:well, do you get depressed after your easter sermons? Uh?
Speaker 2:not not, yeah, Um, but it's not as much that I don't know. I also don't like go spend 20 hours a day leading up to Easter on this. I kind of I'm just like hey, it's another Sunday, I'm going to have some more people and let's preach the word and so I don't kind of like lose my mind, going crazy on Easter sermon stuff like a lot of people do, and maybe I should do more of that, but it's kind of just like here's another Sunday.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you like it, or you like it, you don't, you don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I do just Monday. In general, though, yeah, can be a very discouraging day.
Speaker 1:I think every time you've called me, like in a difficult position, it's always been on a Monday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there you go, either Sunday night or a Monday, when you're just like man, you feel the weight of either something happened or you know this didn't go well. And Sunday nights and Mondays can be very tough days for pastors, where you just I don't know you. We we're really harsh on ourselves, we judge ourselves really strictly, um, and can beat ourselves up when things don't go well a lot, and so the immediate day after that can be really tough, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think one of the things that I was just I don't know why I get irritated by it, but I sort of do uh, one of my seminary he wasn't actually one of the my professor of my class, but he was a professor when I was there, if that makes sense, um, and he just tweeted out like, uh, he does like a theology one-on-one, his name is Michael Spiegel, and he goes. Let me see if I can find it Okay. Church leaders should be above reproach, not beyond reproof. And I was just like I wrote.
Speaker 1:You know, usually I don't comment on those, but I'm like church leaders need to be encouraged, not merely criticized. You know, because I think there's this reality of like church leaders become the punching bag of the normal person because they're like, if there's something wrong, I can just punch at him, which, to be fair, we do this with every other leader in our life. Like the president makes a bad decision, we just criticize and punch him. If, uh, congressman, city council, school board, your, your kids teacher, your kids coach, they're, they're the easy targets of all of our aggression. And I think pastors like just people, they need encouragement as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that's James 3. Do not desire to be teachers For those who teach we who teach will be judged with greater strictness, and so there's a reality that there is more judgment and criticism that comes as part of it, and not just from.
Speaker 1:God from people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there is more judgment and criticism that comes as part of it, and not just from God, from people, yeah, and, and it's uh that that is part of it is, you know you are held to a higher standard and uh, but at the same time, what that means is you also give more prayers to your teachers, give more encouragement to your teachers as well.
Speaker 1:Especially those who who, like I think it was at uh, don't muzzle the ax while I was trying to out screen Like, have a moment where you are encouraging uh, those who have taught you all that God has given you. Not, it is, there is a financial compensation, but it's more than that. It's like have the encouragement to really say, hey, thank you for what you poured in my life. Yeah, it's hard, um, yeah, all right. So the last part here was just the.
Speaker 1:The futuristic aspect of when you say today or tomorrow, we're going to such and such a town, spend a year there and try to make a profit, and this sort of made me giggle, primarily because I in my and this is just you know how like I don't know whenever you start to read like the self-help or like business books you know goal-setting books you're like this is, this is the first time this has ever been read, written or anything.
Speaker 1:Um, and I was really encouraged by this because it made me giggle, cause, in 49 ad time place and specific goal is mentioned about what people were talking about in the like this was not like, it's like hey, stop saying that. Only, in other words, this is such a common thing that people are goal setting. You put a God willing on it, like if the Lord wills, lord willing, I'm going to do this or that, and I love that. So there's nothing new under the sun. You know there have been entrepreneurs and goal setters for a long, long time, which doesn't make entrepreneurship any easier, it just makes it. It's been around for forever. But I did love the fact that I think this will help caveat our language so you don't sound like an arrogant jerk If you were to say, hey, I think next year I'm going to go do this thing, lord willing, it takes all that, I don't know. It's just way easier to love somebody that doesn't come off as a know-it-all or as if they have the power to make the world bend at their whim.
Speaker 2:Yeah, does that make sense? Oh, yeah, yeah, not just to. I think keeping us from sounding like a know-it-all is part of it, and just building a culture of humility is important. How we speak matters, but also just, even in our own hearts, to remind ourselves I'm not in control of everything and I could have the greatest plan, and it could just totally go to, you know, another pandemic or a stock market crash or whatever. You know that um just totally throws a wrench in whatever I had planned to do.
Speaker 1:Man, I can't tell you how much. When we first started our capital campaign, it was like you only need to raise $1.6 million. I was like, sweet, we can do that. We're right out of the gates for $800,000. And then by the following year we're almost at $1.6 million.
Speaker 1:And I wasn't really paying attention to interest rates, because who thinks about those things other than money people? And then we about those things other than like money people? And then I go. We go back to the bank, like, yeah, you need at least another million to start. I'm just like man deflating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and I think that really brought this verse alive for me start saying lord willing. And what's what's been really comforting, the more I say like, hey, this is what I see happening, god willing, it's like it takes the pressure off. This is god's will, not my will. Because I think sometimes in doing god's mission, I'm like I need to manipulate this, make this happen, I gotta make this thing, and then I have to have to go.
Speaker 1:I wasn't my idea about this building in the first place. This was god's idea. He had somebody come down and say, hey, I want to bless you guys with land. And I'm like, okay, and it was crazy. It wasn't anything we planned for, it was just what the Lord did, and so that's helpful for me and I think, if we can see that in terms, I think sometimes we think going back to that entrepreneur type person and goal setter I set a goal, you know, you know all a goal, a goal. A goal is like a wish with a timeline or something you know like, and I like that you make your own stuff happens. But the reality is God has a say and I think when we, when we take that out of the equation, it wrecks us a little bit to understand our dependence on the Lord.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like in verse 13,. To me it just sounds like they're making goals or planning, but I assume the underlying part of that is that God they're not mentioning God.
Speaker 1:Right yeah, so planning is good, like. What I don't want anyone to hear is like don't plan.
Speaker 3:That verse? Yeah, it makes me seem, or, you know, makes me think, at least by itself, yeah, so he's saying.
Speaker 1:Instead you ought to say verse 15 if the lord wills, we will live and do this or that, right, so anyway, I love that. Um, okay, yeah, I think that's about it. Any other thoughts on pride and how it just kind of cripple you you know, have you tried not having pride?
Speaker 3:Brilliant.
Speaker 2:Brilliant, it's a fair question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you should. You should reach out to that person that first told you that and ask him Bless his heart, bless his heart, all right. So, yeah, a haul in any final thoughts? Nope, hey, everyone, thanks for watching. If you want to text us, you want to follow us, just text us at 737-231-0605. Go to pastorplaquecom. We'd love to hear from you. This is our favorite thing communicating God's word in a way that's relevant and truthful to your life. So, from our house to yours, have an awesome week of worship.