Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
The Neuroscience of Intimacy
347: The neuroscience of desire meets biblical wisdom in this candid exploration of marital intimacy through the lens of Solomon's ancient love poetry. Our pastoral team uncovers how this 3,000-year-old text reveals surprising truths about what makes marriages thrive physically and emotionally today.
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and welcome back to pastor plex podcast. I'm your host, pastor plec, and joining me in studio is none other than the motas. They have ezekiel and one on the way over there. What do you do, brie? Like end of july end of july and I also have pastor Holland Gregg from the Eastside Community Church.
Speaker 4:Hello.
Speaker 1:Pastor Holland welcome. And then I also have Jordan Smith Excited to be here, Forensics expert Just keeping that going. Well listen, I think it's true and.
Speaker 1:I believe in your forensic skills, all right, so we are talking about Song of Solomon, chapter 4. And, holland, I think you preached this back in the day at Eastside in the 2020. Back in the day, indeed, and this is where we talked about sex, and so if you've got young ones around, we're going to talk about sex. So this is where you get them away from your screen or put your headphones on as you watch. So, listen, we've been talking about God's design for sex, and one of the things that we made note of is that God's Word has everything we need for life, godliness, salvation and sanctification, for having sex and also for parenting.
Speaker 1:I throw parenting in there because I think sometimes parents are like where's the part of how to be a good dad or how to be a good mom? The Proverbs is a great place to start for that. Solomon is great to work on your marriage. Proverbs is great to work on your parenting, and so I bring that up because we're getting into the scripture and it is very graphic of Solomon's description of his bride, where he goes over her eyes, her hair, her teeth, her lips, her cheeks, her neck and then to her breasts, and he is enjoying every aspect of his wife, and what I said there is that the groom initiated affection due to his bride, which I got from 1 Corinthians 7.3, where it says let the husband rend to his wife the affection due her. Or, as ESV says, the husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, which I thought was sort of funny because conjugal rights seem a little bit not quite as intimate or maybe just seem a little rougher than affection.
Speaker 2:I was just like that's sort of odd.
Speaker 1:Anyway, the reason why I bring that up is Jesus loves the church and husbands and wives are to represent the picture of Jesus and his church, render the affection first. It is the husband's duty, job, obligation, role and responsibility to render or to give his wife the affection that is due to her. Have you guys seen that be something that men push back on in your premarital marital counseling? That you guys have seen?
Speaker 2:Yes A lot Definitely, and how have you seen that?
Speaker 1:What do you mean by that? You've had a lot of couples come through some re-engage where they're really talking about the intimate stuff of their life, and it seems like the men go passive here and the women are the ones that are really rendering the affection due.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, the men are all like, like, oh, our sex life is great, no complaints.
Speaker 1:and then when we split off men and women, it's all complaints from the women no, I don't want you to get into any specific person, but generally, what are some of the complaints that you've heard?
Speaker 3:um that he just though she's ready for bed and he's just feeling up on her expecting something there's no like there's no preheating, there's no, there's no preheating love and there's no sweet talking. It's just straight to the point, and then the woman will feel either obligated or pressured, or the men feel rejected. Right.
Speaker 1:And that's essential. I think that what you have described is how most of the marriages I've coached initially start off is that the man does not think about sex until he's in the bedroom, because men are like waffles, women are like spaghetti, and so women are sort of thinking, oh, if he wanted it, he would be talking about it all day, and men are like if it's not in front of me, I don't see it. And I think that's part of the problem, especially into marriage, because you've forgotten the art of the romance, because something happened. What do you think? Holland?
Speaker 5:Yeah, sounds good. I agree. The art of, did you say the art of the romance? The art of the romance, the art of the romance, yeah, yeah. The groom in Song of Solomon, a master of the art of the romance. Yeah, he is the master of the art of the romance. Masterful with his words, masterful with showing affection, communicating desire, communicating expectations.
Speaker 1:Yeah, puts a lot of men to shame, yeah, but you know, is meant to be a model A couple of things I saw here is that and this might be helpful, I think, if you understood the wedding day and why that probably felt like a microwave moment is because the woman has been preparing for the wedding day. It's been an agreed-upon day, she knows it's coming, the day of she's fully engaged, thinking about all that, her dress, she's wearing it, for the way that it's going to eventually come off. I mean, there's all of that that goes into it. And the guy, he just shows up and he's happy to be there and doesn't understand the amount of preparation and work that's gone into this day.
Speaker 1:So then afterwards, whenever couples are married, the man does not realize the work that goes into getting the woman prepared for sex and so he shows up just like he did on the wedding day, not knowing there's a lot of other factors that help the woman get preheated, and I feel like that's the problem. And so also we need to have husbands and wives kind of think. Remember they're just like Jesus in the church and so we love, the church loves Jesus, because he first loved us. And so men, knowing that example of initiating affection and initiating all that, just like the husband is seen here, that becomes imperative kind of um. Parse this out is the calendar helpful in getting a woman ready, uh, to get preheated for sex? Is that helpful for you to like know when that date is coming?
Speaker 3:for me? No, I think just looking at my calendar and seeing sex on there is really weird.
Speaker 1:No, but like, if he, yes, you don't write sex on the calendar. What you do write is hey, we're going to this restaurant or we're going and spending, oh like planning date night yes.
Speaker 2:Then yes, but.
Speaker 3:I also think like the calendar is very literal, like if you know when you come home from work, you want something like you said you come home from work, you want something like you said make a little comment before you leave. Text something nice throughout the day, don't text can we have sex tonight?
Speaker 1:right, like be more romantic, more words um, because talk to me about the more words, because I I think men don't understand more words, because in general we think words are just a means to a straight end of communication, and for a woman it's a lot more. It says so much more than just I want sex now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can't. Can I say something real quick?
Speaker 4:Well, I thought of this earlier, but when you were talking about the wedding night and it seemed easy from the guy's perspective. If you think about it, the wedding day is probably one of the days where the man is the most romantic in a relationship like you write your vows yep, you dance, you look into each other's eyes. So, to the woman's side, it's like everything she wants you know, but then the next day we're not. We're not doing the same thing, you know, we don't?
Speaker 1:there's no. There's no. Uh, first dance there's no. Uh. Giving you know, feeding each other cake?
Speaker 5:there's no speak for yourselves yeah, we feed each other cake daily, daily in my house. Yeah, that's good but?
Speaker 1:but imagine if you had a systematization, systematization, systemized.
Speaker 5:A system.
Speaker 1:A system, thank you, a system where you understood there were certain expectations that went along with it, because a groom didn't make up the whole wedding. He's like you know, know, we should probably have a first dance. That was like it's more like hey, what song are we gonna do for our first dance? You're, you're not, you're not asking what, you're asking how, whereas I think for the rest of your lives you're like I don't know, what do you want to do? And that, I think, becomes the problem for relationships, because it feels like to the woman she's wanting spontaneous love and joy. That looks like it's coming from the heart and he's just like just give me the plan and I will work the plan. Would you guys agree with that?
Speaker 3:yeah yeah, going back to the words thing, though, I can't speak for every woman because every woman's different. But for me, when I feel appreciated, or I feel like he sees me, um, or I just hear it like compliments, that automatically makes me like, even if he's simply doing it to truly appreciate me and has no intention of sex, I'm more likely to initiate because I feel connected. I feel like, oh, he sees me, he values me. When you walk past your wife in the kitchen and smack her butt and that's your way of indicating you want something we're never going to pick, I will never pick up on that. I think you're just being a dude.
Speaker 4:Let me write this down.
Speaker 5:Because I feel like you're just like oh, let her know. You just shattered many universes with that statement right there.
Speaker 3:You just destroyed a lot of men, I feel like if you're like, oh, preheat the oven, let her know, give her hints. A lot of men, those will be their hints. That's not the hints that us women want.
Speaker 1:So what is the hint? That you want Words. Words, got it Okay. So as he gently taps your bottom, as he passes you, you need him to say what does he say? Fill in the blank, help him out.
Speaker 3:I don't know, I can't give you an exact, but to me, if it's just a constant touching of boobs and butt, I think you're simply a dude. I don't think.
Speaker 4:I'm just laying it out, I'm being real, all right.
Speaker 1:No, I appreciate that we are real here at the Passerplex podcast.
Speaker 3:To me that's not being romantic, that's not uplifting your wife Like that's not.
Speaker 1:So what you're saying is just coming up. So one of the things I talked about is that seven second kisses, because that is one of the ways that you can induce saliva transfer and, uh, saliva transfer over time builds up testosterone in the woman, which makes her arousal to be way easier. So would you be excited about seven second kisses from your husband?
Speaker 3:yeah, and we've done that before oh awesome uh, someone told us a long time ago that the best thing they did for their marriage was make out every night yeah with no expectations of anything else, just make out every night and that alone it's exactly resulted in a better sex life for them yeah, all right, so.
Speaker 1:So so, kissing, kissing, uh, without expectation of sex, even though how can I put this? Of course, the man has such pure intention just to love her in the moment, but there is probably a hope that this will lead to something more All right, so let's talk about that. Is it okay to have non-sexual touching, with the hope that sexual touching will come later?
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I think that can't be your only. I don't want to like put you on the spot, but a big thing that we worked through is he thought him walking past and touching or walking past and giving me a kiss was initiating or letting me know. But when you do that every single day, I don't know that. I think that's just who you are and what you do. So I think, if, if, yeah, I don't know like you need to make it.
Speaker 1:I think she might be a words of affirmation, girl, I don't know like okay to me there's nothing special in that, if oh wow there are days where he's rejecting me, but he was still being physically well, he was, word with words, rejecting you but being with his, his hands, very accepting correct, but then still didn't like that wasn't a day that he wanted to have sex.
Speaker 3:So I'm like how am I supposed to differentiate when you're giving me hints and when you're just?
Speaker 1:so it would it be fair to say pablo, you're always giving hints.
Speaker 1:There's never a time that's not hoping for something more that's exactly right okay, so it's pretty universally true, yeah, yeah yeah, I think what men are trying to do is is always preheat, and so I think this might be where it might be helpful to help your husband out by saying, if you're wanting sex, that's not getting you that I need. But then, of course, I feel like the spontaneity is a big thing for women to feel like it's not for another purpose, it's for like the genuine just wanting to be with you. Yeah, so I think that's really really difficult to pull off, but I do appreciate that you shared that.
Speaker 4:I think we I think we give. I think you've talked about this. We give what we want, right? So brie is a lot better at giving me compliments and telling me how good I look and like I could literally care less. I actually don't like it when she does it okay, and that's a hint to you.
Speaker 5:Yeah, sure, and then don't like it when she does it. Okay, that's a hint to you. Yeah, sure you don't like it when your wife tells you that she's attracted to you.
Speaker 4:No, I mean, yeah, why? But in her words it's like oh, you look good today. I'm just like, okay, what?
Speaker 5:do you?
Speaker 1:say then, of course, what do you say then? I mean, what am I? A piece of meat?
Speaker 4:Right, I feel used.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God.
Speaker 4:No, but then for me, what I would want from her is for her to just come up and touch me, and so, naturally, that's what I do to her. Oh right but she doesn't really want that. She wants me to give her compliments.
Speaker 1:Right, there you go, and so. So it seems like the pattern that solomon's laying out here is lots of words.
Speaker 1:He's got a I think, as a pastor mo said an arsenal of words at his disposal of compliments and arsenal of compliments and he is just boom, boom, boom, boom and he's talking about everything that you can possibly see, which I think is speaks to how a man is. He's he sometimes men speak about like they're possibly see, which I think speaks to how a man is Sometimes men speak about like they're in their box of their wife right now, and so he's just going off everything he can possibly see and he just lists it off, which is actually a great technique. He's not sitting there going to go like, and I cannot wait to spend the next 15 years with you thinking about strolling through the park of our one day happiness he's talking about right now. I'm really into you, I see you, you're beautiful to me, I'm excited about you, and that is what's. That's what preheats her to a point where she feels seen. Is that? Is that true?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think for me, the reason why the knowing he wants me, for me to truly connect, is important because of a porn addiction as well, because I don't know when it's oh, you just need your fix so you don't go to something else, and when it's truly like I want to be intimate and connect on a deeper level with you.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:And I think if a guy initiates the same way every single time, then the women feel like they're being used for the same thing, or the reason for the sex is the same thing every single time.
Speaker 1:Okay, but let's talk about that, because I did talk about sex, specifically orgasm and all that that that means In the last part, last verse, god says eat, drink, eat, friends, drink and be drunk with love. God is pleased by sex and joy within his design. I talked about how there's a hugging neuropeptide, a jealous neuropeptide, a jealous neuropeptide, the dopamine reward neurotransmitter. That all explodes in the brain as you have sex. And what dopamine does? It creates desire, pleasure, desire to do it again. Oxytocin is a bonding. You feel like this is my person. I'm one with you. A vasopressin that's released is a mate-guarding neuropeptide which makes it. This is my person I'm supposed to be guarding and jealous of and I want her to be mine.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:What we talked about is that so cool, it is wild how God wired the brain. It's so cool and what I said what wires together fires together. And what we talked about is how the brain has a neuroplasticity that allows it to conform to desire and enjoy monogamous relationship with your spouse, okay. However, what porn does is it messes up the neural pathways and creates new neural pathways, and you bond to pixels instead of a person, and that's a problem. And so what we said was that you could, and the problem, when you don't have oxytocin and vasopressin bonding you to your spouse, you then need a harder and harder and harder pornography so that you can have the dopamine reward happen. And so what we said was like God can redeem, through the grace of God, but also the way he designed the brain to conform through oxytocin, through vasopressin, through the dopamine neurotransmitters, to enjoy the wife of their youth again.
Speaker 1:But to your point, this is where I think it's hard for men and this is the part I need you to be super honest and vulnerable and all the things Because it might be that he's needing to have sex with you so that he can overcome a porn addiction. It might be that he's having sex with you because he wants to have sex with you because you're his wife. How does a man who has had a porn addiction, be vulnerable about that, lead through that when it's so hurtful and so what's the right word? You probably give a better description traumatic even to experience not being enough, I guess, or the feeling that it's about you and not about his issue. Yeah, how is a husband to communicate to his wife in a way that doesn't take away from the marriage?
Speaker 3:Does that make sense, I think first he needs to fully invite her into the battle with him.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:How did Pablo do that with you? A lot of long conversations about where his addiction stemmed from. A lot of reassurance on his part that it has nothing to do with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because it never does have anything to do with the spouse, even though it sure feels like it.
Speaker 1:It feels like it.
Speaker 3:Yep. Um yeah, the daily check-ins.
Speaker 1:What are those daily check-ins?
Speaker 3:Um, he will like, before we go to bed, he'll let me know how he did that day.
Speaker 1:And how hard is that for you now?
Speaker 3:Oh, it's not hard for me at all.
Speaker 1:Really. So you've gotten to a point because you understand that it's not about you and it's his issue, so that when he says, yeah, there's this girl I saw at the gym, or this ad popped up on my phone and you're, and how do you handle that?
Speaker 3:I pray over him.
Speaker 1:And you pray over him, and you pray the gospel over him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then we assess if there was anything he could have done better. Like a lot of times it's oh, my quiet time was lacking or I didn't pray before going into the grocery store. So just asking like, okay, what can we do tomorrow so that this doesn't happen again? Wow, Um so that this doesn't happen again, wow, so that there's also some form of accountability there, and then praying over one another, and then I mean you just choose to forgive, okay, so I think. Y'all are awesome.
Speaker 1:You guys are so amazing. I think when men or a man or a woman hearing this, they'd say there is no way I could tell my wife because she would lose her ever living mind and guns would come out like violence would ensue Like. I think there's a real fear here that if I were to let her know of what's really going on in my soul, I would break her Talk to me about that and I don't know if you had that experience.
Speaker 4:Yeah, this is actually something that just happened at re-engage this last time around, because the goal of re-engage is for you to open up the one percent that you haven't shared with your spouse oh, wow yeah, and we've done it like three times now and I've just been like man, what's my one percent like?
Speaker 4:I feel like we've talked about everything you know, and then it hit me that there was like a certain type of porn that I would like to watch and I was really ashamed of it and I felt like if Bree knew that, that she would just look at me different, that she would think I'm disgusting, and mostly because I thought those things of myself.
Speaker 4:And so I got convicted of it. And then I told her about it and I told her I was like scared to say it and she like convinced me, like there's nothing that you could do that would make me look at you any differently. And then I finally shared it with her and I was super scared and she laughed because of like how how much I thought this was gonna affect us and she was like that's it, like so, um, even though it's like really scary, I think it I don't know it definitely brought us closer and it made me feel a lot more secure in our marriage because you know, something that I thought was like the worst thing about myself she is just like it's not that bad, you know.
Speaker 3:I don't know if you had something else in mind? Well, I also want to make a point that we didn't go from. Oh, I need to work through this porn addiction and invite my wife into having these conversations right away Like this was years of like. First he had to have a conversation with me like how much do you like? I struggle with this. I want to overcome it. I need your help. How much do you want to know? Because, there's some women out there who they don't want to know they just want to know did you watch porn or not?
Speaker 3:they don't want to know what led you, what temptations you were overcoming, like they don't want to know many details. So I think it's first want to know what led you, what temptations you were overcoming. They don't want to know many details, so I think it's first important to know what your wife can and can't handle, because what I can handle now is not what I could handle back then.
Speaker 1:So how did you grow in that? How did you?
Speaker 3:know what you could handle and not handle. I think it was just baby steps. Once I started to handle him, just telling me when he slipped up and reacting better to that, then I could start to handle. Okay, well, what little sins? Not little sins, but little temptations.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Did you fall victim to throughout the day, or I think it was just. It was a lot of personal growth within my own faith that got me there too. Um, and then counseling uh helped as well. Um, but yeah. So then, once you get to that point, whatever your wife is okay with now, you have to hold up your end of the deal.
Speaker 1:Of confessing it.
Speaker 3:Of confessing it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that and I think you guys are just. I feel like more couples should feel confident, coming to you guys and say like, hey, walk us through this, and this is why community is so important, like the fact that you guys are so open about this struggle that you guys have overcome allows more people to go like, hey, I think I can overcome this and I need your help. Uh, so when does re-engage start?
Speaker 3:August 9th.
Speaker 1:All right, we've got a couple more months, it's fine, we'll, uh, just suffer until then. No, I think I think what you're saying is like hey, you can still meet with people and walk them through a little bit of this before we formalize it, and there's tons of counseling available and we'd love to help you out. Yeah, the other part that I want to talk about just briefly was, um, when, when the husband and wife in song and Solomon four, he says before he they have intercourse, he says, until the day breathes and the shadows flee, I will go away to the mountain of myrrh and the hill of frankincense. You're all together, beautiful, my love, there's no flaw in you. And what he was saying there is like I'm content with your breasts and above until you're ready for me to have intercourse with you. I'm so in love with you. Waiting for me is no problem. I can make sure you're preheated fully until that moment comes.
Speaker 1:And I thought there was something very gentle about that. And he does something where he makes the woman the standard of beauty. I think Holland, you brought that up to me as we were talking about this week the woman becomes is the standard of beauty, not the comparison of the culture, which she probably might have to work in her own mind to wrap her head around. But to understand that she is perfect for him is a huge part of a woman's own mindset for sex to happen. Would you agree with that? Is there ever any other crazy thoughts going through your head? If I'm not enough, he's thinking about I'm too, whatever, whatever. Is that ever a thing for you?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:How do you get your brain to like calm down or I don't even know if that's the right word but how do you get to focus?
Speaker 3:I just tell him hey, this is what I'm feeling, that's the right word. But how do you get to focus? I just tell him hey, this is what I'm feeling, oh wow. And then he usually just reassures me.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful, I think, that assurance, and if men can initiate that assurance, that becomes a huge aspect. Way to go, pablo. I think the other part here is the next verse, when he says come with me from Lebanon, my bride. Come with me from Lebanon, depart from the peak of Amman, from the peak of Sinir and Hermon. He's saying I need you to leave the past great things behind. He's talking about where she was, from her hometown, where they could see the mountains, but then also says from the dens of lions, from the mountains of leopards, also for the dangers.
Speaker 1:Focus on me in this moment and don't have all the other ADHD moments of your brain going in this moment and don't have all the other ADHD moments of your brain going, firing off, because you need to focus on the, on who's in front of you, and then, on top of that, marriage wise, it's so important to leave and to cleave. Have you like, have you two had any issues leaving and cleaving like, is there still a part of you, bree, that was ever stuck with your family, or you're like, ah, we're out?
Speaker 3:I don't think now yeah, we went through this but we went through it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how? What was the issue? What I love about, uh, podcasts that are live. You just never know when you're a step on a landmine.
Speaker 4:So go ahead, pablo yeah, uh, you know this, you walk through this with that's true um, basically, here's the deal.
Speaker 4:So we were I'll try to make it short, but it's a long story uh, we're living together, um, boyfriend and girlfriend. And the more serious we got in our faith, we started getting convicted of that and so we were like, okay, we need to get married. Like we, we always wanted to get married. And so one weekend, breeze out of town, I go to her parents and I asked for her hand in marriage and they basically said not yet. And they had certain things that they wanted me to improve on, which I didn't agree with any of them at the time, but I was like, hey, I respected them enough to come and ask for their hand, so I'm going to be respectful enough and just try to work on these things and make sure that we get their blessing. So, anyways, I started working on these things.
Speaker 4:Eight months go by and I'm like, okay, like I feel like I improved on all of them and they haven't said anything. So I go to them again and I'm like, hey, you know, here's the things you mentioned, here's how I've improved. I just want to know if there's like any updates. And they weren't like very happy about that, oh gosh. But um, they finally like said yes. So I was like cool. So as for brie for hand in marriage, uh, we get engaged and the plan was we were gonna have our actual wedding like a year later. So we're gonna be engaged for a year because this is what her parents thought was best. Okay, well, there's that. This is why you need a wife, because she's you know she's better memory, yeah anyways.
Speaker 4:So some time go by and you know, still feeling convicted because we're still not married, living together in sexual sin, and so we start praying, eloped, and so, uh, we pray about it and then, um get to a point where I'm like, okay, I think I should probably move out. And so I move out, I go live with. I lived with two different people for probably a total of like six months, um, and then the living situation fell through um and I had to come back home. So we're living together again, still convicted, and I'm like, man, what do we do? And so I'm praying about it. I'm praying about it and very clearly I felt God telling us like this is the time to get married, like you need to get eloped, and this was still probably like six months out from the wedding.
Speaker 4:I don't know, it was a long time out from the wedding and I knew brie wasn't going to be happy about it because she wanted to make sure we had her parents blessing and approval. But I was like this is what god's telling me to do and this is what we're going to do. And so go and have that conversation with her parents. And they were very happy. Um well, sorry, before the conversation. This is where what you asked applies because, um, the reason brie didn't want to get eloped yet was because of the approval from her mom and her dad, right, which was understandable up to the point where what they're asking of us was interfering with what God was asking of us. And I remember I had this conversation with you and, I think, with Robert, where I was like well, you know, technically, in the eyes of Texas, we're married because under what's the law called Common law marriage.
Speaker 4:I was like we're married and you're like yeah, no, you're not.
Speaker 2:No, and whatever I was like we're married and you're like, yeah, no, you're not, no, so and whatever I was like what did I say?
Speaker 4:yeah, um, and then you literally sent me on like a prayer walk where I walked like five miles praying, that's good and then you're like, and then tell me what god says when you come back, and I was like crap, so, uh, so that was the case, and that's when you helped me realize, though, is the reason why well, one, the reason why we don't want to go and get married is there's something stopping it. It's not just, you know, we want to please her parents, whatever, and that's when we realized that brie still wasn't fully. She didn't, uh, leave and cleave onto me yet, because she was so worried about what her parents opinion was on this whole situation that she was allowing that to affect her, coming under my authority, like she was basically still under her dad's authority and not under mine, obviously, because we hadn't been married yet.
Speaker 5:But the point is so far she wasn't like making the transition yeah
Speaker 4:and so once we talked about that and realized that, then she was like okay, like god is calling us to do this and even if my parents don't agree, it's more important that we're obeying to god than to what they want. Because it was, it was truly based out of an opinion, it wasn't anything biblical, it was just like we don't want you to have a shotgun wedding. And we we were like, okay, so we go and have the conversation with them. It did not go well at all. Her mom was a little more understanding. Her dad wasn't understanding at all. He like flipped out. But I basically told him like hey, this is what we're going to do, like I'm trying to be obedient to God, I don't want to live in sin, and that's what we're going to do. And so at the end of it kind of worked out for everyone, because there's this thing where it's not a an actual marriage certificate, but it's a. But I thought it was like a certificate.
Speaker 4:It was a certificate for common law marriage, but it it. I remember this. It was different certificate for common law marriage, but it it. I remember this. It was different from like an actual marriage certificate, because your parents accepted that and they were like, sure, if that's what you want to do and that works for you, that's fine. But in their eyes we still weren't married even though we would file taxes as it were.
Speaker 3:We had documentation like the government said we were married so we are married.
Speaker 4:So you got married. Plex signed it.
Speaker 1:I signed the other one yeah, what a confusing time yeah, did y'all have like another ceremony or something.
Speaker 5:Chris did it and you pronounced them husband and wife, so you guys are married yeah, we did an actual ceremony.
Speaker 4:I don't remember what happened in that interim it was very confusing, and if you're confused, you can imagine how I felt. I was just trying to do the right thing and it was a lot more complicated. If you're confused, you can imagine how I felt I was just trying to do the right thing and it was a lot more complicated than that.
Speaker 5:So how are things now with your parents?
Speaker 4:Oh, they're great.
Speaker 5:That was a rough start.
Speaker 2:You know, what.
Speaker 4:I think her dad respected me a lot more because I stood for what I believed in and I think he wasn't expecting that. He was expecting me to just be like okay, like we'll just do what you want. So at first it was like kind of awkward and you know just weird. But like after we grew so much closer, like we're way closer today and I think it has a lot to do you and her dad, yeah, yeah, that's awesome so awesome.
Speaker 1:I guess the real question I had was did you ever have any issues of her, when you were married, leaving and cleaving? Was there a part of it that was difficult for her to leave traditions of her house to start a new family with you? Was that ever a difficult thing? Why that ever a difficult thing? Why you're talking yeah, you gotta talk into the microphone because you know we're on a podcast.
Speaker 3:They can't see. I'm very set in my family's traditions on holidays and like wanting to be with my parents and my siblings on holidays oh wow, how does that go over with you?
Speaker 4:pablo. Now it's better. I think I was bitter at first because I don't have family here, so I was tired of seeing her family all the time.
Speaker 1:Oh, gosh, I'm just being honest. Call it like it is, that's good, all right. Yeah, this is live marriage counseling everyone.
Speaker 4:All right. So you guys, I'm just telling the truth.
Speaker 1:So how did you guys move through? That we now alternate holidays oh good, good for you, that's very. Do you like where?
Speaker 4:because is your family in california they're in florida, florida, okay, yeah, so I'm in california okay, wow, that is awesome.
Speaker 1:You guys have done a good job at figuring out your traditions over time. All right, I want to get to this last one that you brought up a question earlier that you had.
Speaker 3:When you were talking. Are there neuropathways? Is that what they're?
Speaker 1:called Neuropathways.
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah when you were talking about rewiring the brain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what fires together? Wires together. Yeah, yeah, what fires together, wires together.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you dropped in the. You're able to rewire your brain for your wife and not a porn addiction.
Speaker 2:But then you also dropped in.
Speaker 3:If you have homosexual tendencies, you can rewire that too. My question is how? Yeah, it's the same For both. How so?
Speaker 1:there are a lot. Here's what you may not know being a pastor, you counsel a lot of guys that are having sex with men while they're married to their wife, and so, uh, that's a thing, and so you can, if you or can look at, they can or look at gay porn or whatever, and you can rewire your brain to be, um, attracted to your wife. So that was it was in my head as I was preaching that, and now, now as I'm putting together what you, what you probably heard, was like, you just need to go have sex with women and then you, or you know, go to the strip club and you'll be cured. And that's not, not what I was advocating. I, I do appreciate that that viewpoint. Don't go to the strip club, holland.
Speaker 5:Got it.
Speaker 1:But I do have Jordan Smith here. So Jordan struggles with same-sex attraction and when you hear that does it feel hopeless to you. Give me your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2:Rewiring the brain. Yeah, not hopeless. I mean, I think you have your opinion. Do I believe that same opinion, I don't know? I have been thinking through recently of if you trust God and God can do anything, then is it true faith to just pursue a woman even if you have no attraction? It's kind of what I'm working through right now. Yeah, is that scientific Amen?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, about how your brain like I mean, it's not solely on environment matters what you believe matters, there's everything. It's a holistic approach because you're not just pure matter, you're also spirit, You're also emotion, you're also a lot of that stuff. But God helps you out in developing the neural pathways so that you are attracted to your spouse for monogamy. That's that purpose. So, yes, and it's like a part of the picture, not the full picture.
Speaker 5:Theologically, we understand that your desires are malleable, yep. Your, what you think is right or good or beautiful and attractive can change Yep, and changes over time in a lot of ways, but especially from going from an unbeliever to a believer, and you know you have passages like Romans 12,. Do not be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Like our minds can be renewed, our desires, our hearts, what we find, yeah, attractive, can be transformed by God and can be transformed even naturally, biologically, through, like the stuff that you're talking about. When you say rewire the brain, you're essentially saying through natural, not supernatural, means of God giving you new desires. You're saying through natural means, what we like and desire can be changed based on certain things that we do.
Speaker 5:So, but then the question of yeah, yeah, I don't know. I'd want to hear everyone's thoughts on this yeah, yeah my, my thoughts on you. Know, should you just marry someone that you're not attracted to? Like that's what you're saying, right? Should I just have faith, find a godly woman, marry her even if I'm not sexually or physically attracted to it, right?
Speaker 2:right, and I believe that's what you're implying as well, right.
Speaker 5:So I think, like number one, sexual attraction is not a prerequisite for marriage Right.
Speaker 1:I think everyone kind of assumes that it is, Especially in our modern culture, right, but back in the day of arranged marriages, you may not have, you know you get what you get.
Speaker 5:It's not a condition for marriage. It's not like when. And also, I think, if you just look at, there's a lot of marriages where women, a lot of women, are not attracted to their husbands Right, and that's a normal thing and so. But you know, what you read in Song of Solomon is like, you see, like that verse, there's no flaw in you. What you read in Song of Solomon is like, you see, like that verse, there's no flaw in you. You see someone who is focusing on recognizing the beauty of the other person. And so you don't have to like. I can even like. I do not struggle with same-sex attraction, but I can look and be like you're a good looking dude and I can recognize man. You got a nice beard going on there, chris.
Speaker 4:Don't lie in the church, bro, come on.
Speaker 5:And you're like a strong dude, you're healthy, you can recognize athleticism or fitness or handsomeness or beauty or whatever, and a man and a woman. We do this like even your— Because you do it with like cars or houses, or your mom. Like mom, you look beautiful, your daughter know you look beautiful in your prom dress or whatever. Right your brother, you look handsome.
Speaker 5:Um, you can recognize those things without being necessarily like attracted to a person, sexually attracted right, yeah and so, within the context of like a marriage you could still like if you don't you don't have a sexual attraction to someone, you can still recognize their beauty and speak those things and call them out to encourage the person you can be. What you're really called to be attracted to in a person, according to scripture, is godliness. Beauty is fleeting, charm is deceitful, right, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. The fear of the Lord, godliness 1 Peter, a gentle, quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God. It's godliness that is meant to be what we're attracted to, right More than anything else.
Speaker 5:And if you make physical attraction essential to marriage, you really ruin, I think, the core of what marriage is, which is covenant commitment. Were you attracted to your wife? Yeah, so yes, and I think my wife's beautiful. But what was most attractive to me about her was her heart for God. Because here's the deal If I make her physical beauty, what is like, that's the most important thing. She gets in a car accident and the side of her face gets burned off, she loses an arm, something like that, and she just doesn't look the same. If that's what our marriage is based off, well, that's gone, now Gone.
Speaker 5:But if our marriage is based off I'm attracted to your heart for God and I'm committed to you in a covenant commitment that no matter, you know, car wreck or sickness and sickness and health for richer or poorer, then you know, like that, that's what marriage is really about. Is that covenantal love and commitment and the and an attraction based on a fear of the Lord. So that's, that's my. That's why I would support you in saying, hey, if there's a godly woman at this church, you're like man, she's following Jesus and there's no sexual attraction. I would say praise the Lord, you're not lusting. That's a good thing. Win, and I think if you were to, you know, go on a date with her and you know you guys, you both love the Lord and you were to get married or something you know you take those steps. I think the Lord, what Chris is talking about, could rewire, even through natural means, but also supernatural.
Speaker 5:God give me a desire. I think the Lord can work through that and that it's right and good and that that is. The God created male and female for each other and he blesses that. I think I would be supportive of that and I think a godly woman who feared the Lord would be supportive of that as well.
Speaker 1:I mean, I wouldn't lie to her, but at the same time I would be like here's where I'm at, and the thing that's really great about you, jordan, is that I mean, here we are on live podcast streaming to millions and millions of twos out there where people can hear, see and go.
Speaker 1:Oh, there's a real guy who loves Jesus, who's struggling with real sinful desire but wants to overcome by the power of the blood and testimony, all that and I'm willing to get to know him and you're a deep friend. You're a kind of go-all-the-way friend, so you're not like a surface-level person, you love the deeper things, you think about things, and so a woman would be really attracted to that and you could probably be like, hey, let me get up. Song of Solomon, chapter 4. Your hair is like a flock of goats running down Gilead.
Speaker 1:You could probably say that and mean it, and it'd be really sweet and beautiful.
Speaker 1:And I think that that's the part where I challenge you and our listeners out there, like if you're struggling in a sinful desire, then obviously you want to orient your heart towards Jesus, and the best thing you can do is become a friend of a woman that's single, and then let's see where God takes it. I would not be against that either, so I'm encouraged. I totally agree with Holland, and I think I've said that to you before, but I'm excited for that. Let's just see what happens. I would love to see what the Lord does with you as you start to take a step of faith, although it's challenging, and we've all known people that had homosexual background tendencies and then they did get married and they flourished. And there are couples at this church that have experienced just that and are living for the Lord now, even though they've had a history of gay pornography in their past, and so that's something I can kind of look at and go like. I've seen the proof in couples at our church, and now walking them into freedom with Jesus is pretty great.
Speaker 2:That's exciting.
Speaker 5:I'm kind of Bree. What do you think about? Like, let's say, Pablo, you know you guys were dating and maybe, maybe, like a different, you know it would be a different story than y'all's story.
Speaker 5:But say you're just, you're dating, and he and he's just like hey, I'm not like here's what I've struggled with in the past and I'm not like physically attracted to you and but I do think you're like a beautiful person. Um, you know, I love your heart for God, you know, and I would love to be in a relationship with you, but that aspect wasn't there. But you knew he was going to like love you and serve you and protect you and provide for you and be a spiritual leader, like what? What do you think about that? How would you receive that?
Speaker 3:Personally, I would be like this isn't going to work out but, that's me Like that to me it's I need to.
Speaker 3:I struggle with physical appearance so I need someone who will reassure me that they are attracted to me. That's something I look for in my spouse. I do know there are women out there who that's not a priority to them. There's actually a couple in this church I won't say their names because I don't know how public they want it but their testimony is one of my favorites where he straight up told her I'm interested in pursuing you, I'm not attracted to you. And she was like that's fine and the attraction came later on and that's awesome. But it does take a very special woman who's very confident in herself already to be willing to do that. That's kind of who you want and that couple's super happily married now, which is really great.
Speaker 1:That's a great story in and of itself. That has a woman of self-confidence through the roof. It just shows that she was raised by loving parents who told her it's not about what other people think, you're awesome and loved. That's a lot of love that you've received. So then, like, endure that.
Speaker 1:And then like, I think, she felt called by God to marry him, and as odd as that sounds, um, which ultimately we knew it was true when, uh, they said I do, but I do feel like that. That's a great picture of that, of like he now finds her very attractive and it's it's a wild picture of that of he now finds her very attractive, and it's a wild thing.
Speaker 5:So we used to do apartment life and at our apartment there was a bunch of Indian couples, who all Hindu Indian couples. Most were arranged marriages. And my wife was asking one of them one time they were getting to know each other a little bit and she was like arrange marriage, like what are your thoughts? Like what you know, what was that like? And she was like well, I did not used to like him or be attracted to him, and now I am and he's my baby now. And that was her response and it was just like and they about it? I did not like him, I was not attracted to him and he's my baby now.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think that's the thing that you're talking about with the oxytocin. That's exactly right.
Speaker 1:I mean like it couldn't be more clear from that example, and I think in our culture that has created for us the romantic we fell in love at first sight. I don't want to call it complete garbage, but we've overemphasized a beauty that is so subjective and changes over time. And if your brain is designed to fall in love with that which you have sex with, then what comes first? I think the problem for a lot of us is we're having a lot of sex before we have a lot of commitment, and so therefore, in a transactional relationship you better have the body, because I will find another one who does. In a covenantal relationship is you're with me, no matter what.
Speaker 1:And to what I'm talking about with you, jordan, is. The covenantal relationship that we're talking about is so much greater than a physical attraction. It's covenantal, it's building a fabric of society, building family together, representing Jesus and the church. And in some ways you have an advantage because you're not skewed by the world and you have to look a certain look for me to be into you, but rather I'm going to trust God and love you as Christ loved the church, because that's what I'm called to do, and that takes the pressure off, I think probably for the woman in many ways to have to live up to some sort of beauty standard. Anyway, that's what I thought on that. Cool, there you go.
Speaker 2:That's there you go All right.
Speaker 1:Any other thoughts on that? We spent a lot of time on this particular podcast.
Speaker 3:I don't think so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right. Hey, listen, we love talking faith, culture, everything in between, and very excited about Song of Solomon, chapter four, and very excited about Song of Solomon, chapter five, which Pastor Mo will be bringing this weekend. So very excited for him to talk about what happens when a relationship gets a little rocky. So, from our house to yours, have an awesome week of worship.