Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Navigating Relationship Tensions
348: When you miss your spouse's cues, how do you find your way back to connection? Our deep dive into Song of Solomon chapter 5 reveals a profound portrait of marriage after the honeymoon phase, when miscommunication and hurt feelings create distance between lovers.
Got questions? Text us at 737-231-0605!
Like, share, and subscribe! We love seeing and responding to your reviews and comments.
Support the show: https://wbcc.churchcenter.com/giving
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast. I'm your host, pastor plec, and joining me in studio is none other than muhammad ali. Hello, pastor mo. It preached our sermon on sunday and then also from the east side, pastor hollandgg, how are we doing?
Pastor Holland:Doing great. Thanks, Chris.
Pastor Plek:Well, you know, awesome experience this past Sunday we got into Song of Solomon, chapter 5. And the first couple verses talked about really the previous week. It ended with eat, friends, drink and be drunk with love, but then things after the honeymoon experience of a lot of sexual intimacy then jumps into verse two. Take it away from there, mo. What did you experience or what do you think is going on in this story? In fact, I have a question oriented around verses 2 through 7 of chapter 5. The question is in the book of Song of Solomon, are verses chapter 5, 2 through 7 a dream, because it starts with I slept and he said he's looking up Constable's notes, which, if you're familiar with Dr Tom Constable, one of my professors from Dallas Seminary, he says it's a dream?
Pastor Mo:What say ye Muhammad? Maybe it doesn't matter, to me it doesn't matter.
Pastor Plek:It can be. One of my favorite answers in seminary was could be, could be, could be, and then I would get so angry because I would be like, no, just tell me the answer. And he'd be like could be.
Pastor Holland:I slept, but my heart was awake, yeah.
Pastor Mo:And the slept in the Hebrew. When I looked it up, it also could mean I laid down and my heart was awake. It's the same word.
Pastor Plek:Well, that's frustrating.
Pastor Mo:Yeah, it doesn't matter. But why doesn't it matter it?
Pastor Holland:doesn't change anything. Explain yourself. You're saying the Bible doesn't matter.
Pastor Mo:No, no, no, it doesn't matter whether she was awake or she's dreaming it, because what happens in the actual thing, in the actual text, that's what matters.
Pastor Plek:To be fair, this is a poem, it's a song.
Pastor Mo:That's like asking the question. The thing that I brought up is when the guards beat her up. Was that a good thing or a bad thing?
Pastor Plek:it doesn't matter that's not the point. It could have been corrupt guards. Yes, they were getting paid off, but the important thing is she got beat down.
Pastor Mo:It was painful yeah, or or they thought she was a prostitute or a virgin sneaking around out of her dad's house, and then then they did do good.
Pastor Plek:Who knows, that doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter Like, stop worrying about, like the policeman.
Pastor Mo:Yeah.
Pastor Plek:Is this a police brutality verse? No, it's not.
Pastor Mo:No no.
Pastor Plek:Okay so.
Pastor Holland:Okay, but you know, here's my what is your. I slept, but my heart was awake. This verse is in there for a reason first is in there for a reason.
Pastor Mo:What are you supposed to get from that? I what I get from that. The biggest thing is that something in her heart is troubled. And then here comes the husband knocking on the door, and then, even after he knocks on the door, for some reason, she's still not about it right and it takes him showing her that he cares about her through what he does and he leaves murr on the doorknob.
Pastor Mo:And that is what gets her to say my heart is thrilled within me. So there's this back and forth that she has within herself. That's why later she says my soul failed me because she knew she should have gotten up. And then later, when her friends ask her, hey, are you sure like you even want this guy she's? She goes off and says among ten thousands there is not another for me.
Pastor Plek:So I think that's the big point and I think the art here is he's trying to convey she can't sleep because there's something wrong. So the poem, the song, brings out I was sleeping, but my heart was awake you know, like kind of a you know you get into the song right and like she's really feeling the pain and the pangs of that rage of sorrow, wow, yeah, thanks for really making that come alive for us.
Pastor Holland:Listen, I think what happens for a lot of us is.
Pastor Plek:We don't understand the poetry emotion here. She's sleeping, but awake. She can't sleep because there's something not right and a sound my beloved is knocking, saying open to me my sister, my love, my dove, my perfect one for my head is what would do my locks with the drops of the night. I love that because he's like I'm finally home after a long days of work and I, like you, thought he was out working or something and probably had said he would be at home a certain time but didn't make it. And she's fired up, pissed off about it, and she's like you're gonna pay for that. Yeah, I'm not moving, I'm not gonna get my feet dirty for you. That's right. Have you ever had your wife not get her feet dirty for you?
Pastor Holland:You know what my wife loves to serve me and get her feet dirty for me, and I cannot recall a time right now when she refused, that that's a good answer.
Pastor Plek:That was a really good answer.
Pastor Mo:Yeah, well done.
Pastor Plek:Yeah, I think we've all experienced not wanting to get up. I know none of you have done this, but I've of some other guys that, like when the baby would start crying, you just fake sleeping and then like, jab an elbow back and then like, oh, you're like rolling over and sleep and then she has to get up and go do it because that's, you know, it's like her job or something.
Pastor Holland:Can I share something? Actually Okay so confession One of my biggest kind of like pet peeves in marriage would be when it's bedtime, it's time to go to sleep and I've brushed my teeth, taken a shower. I'm like I'm so tired, I plug my phone in, everything's just kind of ready, and then I lay down and I'm like my head hits the pillow and you're at that moment yeah, my wife would say can you get me a glass of water?
Pastor Holland:and while you're up, can you find my charger? I thought, and can you? You know, and it's like all these things where I'm like man, I was literally just in the other room you know, if you would have just asked me a minute ago, right, but you waited until I'm in. That, like bliss of, I'm about to fall asleep, you know.
Pastor Mo:Yeah.
Pastor Holland:And I would get so annoyed and there would be times where you know I'd be like just die to yourself, just do it.
Pastor Mo:And then there'd be other times where, like no, you're standing my ground. That that's right. You get your charger.
Pastor Plek:Get your charger.
Pastor Holland:Just you know, you're, just, you're up, you're not even tired, you're like on your phone, look at it, you know, and but so but then you know I was like you know what I?
Pastor Holland:I made a decision a while back where I didn't like that, the times where I stood, my and I was like, no, I'm not going to you serve. I want to have this be a way that I love and serve and bless my wife. So I made a commitment, I told her, I said no matter what, no matter how tired I am, what it is, I'm always going to say yes. If you ask me for something and it's going to take the fight out of my head of like, do I do it or do I say it, it's just, my answer is always yes.
Pastor Mo:And I actually say, as you wish, princess bride, yeah, I do the same thing.
Pastor Holland:So I just say, as you wish, and now, no matter what, just a little bit, wow, I always do it, and um. And so I think she felt loved and blessed by that and also she's a little bit more conscious. She's like I know he's gonna say yes I don't want to put that, I'm just gonna do it myself sometimes and it's. It's made the whole thing.
Pastor Holland:It's completely removed that pet peeve from our marriage oh, wow and I when say yes, she feels blessed by it and I get to love and serve her. And there's other times where she goes. You know what? I'm not going to have him do that. I'm going to do it myself.
Pastor Plek:Well, there you go. Look at that.
Pastor Holland:It's been a blessing.
Pastor Plek:Yeah, I thought you were going to say, and she never asked again.
Pastor Holland:No, she still. She knows that yes, now, and so she utilizes that.
Pastor Plek:But she doesn't. She doesn't actually ask as much as she used to, just knowing, yeah, yeah, I, I think, uh, usually, um, I, there's a light that's left on that she senses, and then, when I'm about to go to bed, I'll, I am now tasked to go get it. I should probably do a better job of being very joyful about that, as you wish, as you wish.
Pastor Plek:And the other thing I need to be better joyful at is when I'm about to pass out, have a sleep, and that's the time she decides to bring up a really bro, difficult conversation yes, yes it's like the moment where, like you know the whole time, we could add yeah, there there is like 30, 40 minutes of like us in the same room but, nothing was brought up about this particular topic, and then she waits until I'm almost. It's like hey, I've been thinking and I'm like oh my, what happened to the 45 minutes before this moment right now?
Pastor Mo:What's going on? You've experienced that All the time.
Pastor Plek:It's a challenge. I definitely can understand this woman.
Pastor Mo:As you wish. As you wish.
Pastor Plek:As you, as you wish, as you wish, yeah.
Pastor Mo:As you wish. Which is funny, because for her it's like man I don't want to have sex with you right now but for the guy it's like man. I don't want to talk about this right now. It's the complete opposite, right? That is a great point. I never thought about that.
Pastor Plek:That is dang it. Wow, that's wild.
Pastor Mo:I missed it.
Pastor Plek:That is like totally.
Pastor Mo:That's it, yeah.
Pastor Plek:Yeah, wow, I would have never thought Like. That just brings it all together for me?
Pastor Mo:Yeah, it does.
Pastor Plek:Like women don't want to have sex. Like at the last second. Yep, they're thinking why didn't you not prepare this, talk about it, initiate? You're waiting until this very second when I'm about to pass out. And for women, they start conversations when a man is about to pass out Yep.
Pastor Holland:That's blew my mind, yep Right there, and that's why, if each person in the couple just takes on the mindset of as you wish.
Pastor Plek:Everybody wins, everybody wins, everybody wins. Well, that's because 1 Corinthians 7.3, rend the affection due to one another. There you go, or as the ESV says, just give up the conjugal rights. Just right to it, right to it man.
Pastor Plek:Okay so let's talk through then his response. I really love the way you brought this up on Sunday with, like my beloved put his hand to the latch and my heart was thrilled within me. I rose to open to my beloved Like how long did it take her to get to the door? That's the question. Like she could have been like hey, I'm so glad you're here, but she I don't know if the bolt took a while to and then gets it on and then she opens the door and she doesn't know where he is. Yeah, and that's she said. My soul failed me when he spoke, meaning she could have spoken up Yep.
Pastor Plek:But she didn't. What do you think that was about?
Pastor Mo:She's just regretting it, she's just like dang it. You know, I took too long to get to the door. I mean she sees him putting his hand through the latch with Murr. So she could have right there been like oh man, like come on in, you know whatever. So there are just so many times where she could have said something and she doesn't.
Pastor Plek:Yeah, I love what you said. On Sunday they kept missing each other. I think that's a real difficult part of relationship when you keep missing one another, yep. Okay, then transition to the Watchmen. The Watchmen found. I know it's not about police brutality or it's not about any of that, but what do you think that the point is? She gets there's barriers, she gets hurt Yep, what is it?
Pastor Mo:There's consequences to your actions.
Pastor Plek:There's consequences to not reaching out.
Pastor Mo:Yeah, because he did all the right things, he was sweet, he used good words, he showed her a gift, he waited for a little bit. So it's just like when your spouse pursues you in all the right ways and you don't respond, there's going to be some sort of internal turmoil probably.
Pastor Plek:One of the things we talk about is that this passage of Scripture is interpreted as allegory, literal or typology. The one thing I thought was interesting, because you're not going to find this about Jesus anywhere. I sought him, but I didn't find him.
Pastor Plek:That's exactly right, I was like what do you do with that? I called him, but he gave no answer. Seek and you will find, clearly is what the scripture says. Uh, and I don't want to. Sometimes it may feel like he's not answering, but I I I thought that was an interesting piece right here. As the alec, what? How do people who interpret this allegorically, how do you reconcile? I sought him, but didn't find him. Now ultimately she does.
Pastor Mo:Yeah.
Pastor Plek:But she has to be like hey, call the friends. Have you seen him?
Pastor Mo:Yeah.
Pastor Plek:I just don't know. Maybe that's like, if you're having a hard time with God, get the church around you to rally around prayer. But, man, it seems like that that's a miss on the allegorical interpretation.
Pastor Mo:Maybe it could be. I mean, like Jeremiah, if you seek me with your whole heart, so maybe she wasn't seeking with her whole heart.
Pastor Holland:Yeah.
Pastor Mo:Or this isn't supposed to point to that.
Pastor Plek:Right.
Pastor Mo:Or not at all, or like sometimes. In the Old Testament it says like you will seek me or you will call out to me, but I will not answer you right, like that's the thing.
Pastor Plek:Right, yeah, that's what the wicked now right.
Pastor Mo:So that's allegory, I can be interpreted right, I guess like hey, if you, if you forsake him enough, he gives you up to your own ways, romans one, and then if you try to seek him, he cannot be found in that moment or whatever, but if you seek him enough, even if you're the wicked, he will answer, which which he does. Yeah, so that's how, I don't know. That's the most I can do, she's okay, that's good.
Pastor Plek:Um, hon, what else did you get out of this text here? Um, I like how they bring up the, the community. What is your? They go. She says hey, daughters, jerusalem, you see him yeah let him know I'm sick with love. And then the other's like what do you mean? You're sick with love. What is your beloved more than another beloved? Oh, most beautiful among women. You can have anybody you want. Where do you think she's going with that?
Pastor Holland:The person asking the question or her answer.
Pastor Plek:The others, the others people, I guess daughters of Jerusalem.
Pastor Holland:Yeah, you don't get an explanation of their intentions here. Are they trying to slam, are they being like, what's so great about this guy? Or are they trying to draw out and remind her? So which way did you go with that, mo?
Pastor Mo:Draw out and remind her yeah. Because it sounds like what is your beloved?
Pastor Holland:more this guy you're into. He's not that great like. Move on you know, but um throughout the song. The others are really like. They're really more of like a positive voice right, yeah and um it's, it's kind of a mix, like they're. They're into the relationship and supportive of it, but also they're listening to the relationship and taking advice from it, and so it seems more like genuine curiosity and trying to draw out like, okay, remember again or tell us again why this person is special to you um and which she does.
Pastor Holland:So, um, I think that's an important role for um in terms of relationship, you can, you can go um, you know, uh, uh, like a dating relationship relationship, or you can go to your relationship with Christ. But the role of the church in each of those things is to like draw out and remind you what is it about this person that has drawn you to them?
Pastor Mo:Is it good Is?
Pastor Holland:it worthy, is it you know something in terms of a dating relationship? You know? Hey, tell me again, why is it that you're into this person? Is it that they love Christ? Is it that they're a godly person? Or, hey, remember again why you followed Jesus in the first place, like what was it about him that you know brought you in, that drew you in? And remember again, you know your desire for Jesus. So I think it works both those ways, yeah.
Pastor Plek:That is good. I also, you know, when I think of this makes me think of Revelation, because it talks about his arms, like Rod's ivory Now granted, in Revelation it's like he's bronzed, yeah, so, so different. But then also, like the Church of Ephesus lost their first love, like you have all the right doctrine, all the right whatever, and yet you're not, you have no love for me. So I kind of appreciated that aspect, that a conflict, because there's always pointing towards Christ and the church, right, because of Ephesians 5 makes every marriage about Christ and the church. And so I do think there is something there of like when she reminds him, it's like, hey, you are classy, you are strong, you're protective, you've got it all taken care of and this is my beloved and this is my friend.
Pastor Mo:I thought that was a sweet way to kind of land the plane.
Pastor Plek:And she's like oh, thank you, daughters of Jerusalem, here's all the reasons why I love him, and then that's where they're like we will seek him with you, which we find out in chapter 6. So, anyway, any other thoughts on Song of Solomon, chapter 5? Any other marriage advice we can dole out here? Keep short accounts. I like how she doesn't go back to her bed and go.
Pastor Holland:Eh, he'll figure itself out.
Pastor Plek:She's like I want resolution to this Now, on the same hand, going out and chasing the streets, and it's dangerous when what we find out is he's just in the garden. We find out oh, where is he? Oh, he's actually in the garden. And you, you know, we find out like, oh, where is he? Oh, he's actually in the garden. And you went running through the streets because you were emotionally compromised through the whole thing and he's been here the whole time.
Pastor Holland:You just missed him again.
Pastor Plek:Like what's wrong? Like you've got to like, pull yourself together and think logically, not that he's chasing after another woman but that he's just going. You know, he's gonna go back to the garden where he was, uh, and yeah, his hair is a little wet because he's been out all night, but I I think there's that part of it where sometimes in a relationship you can mind read and sort of like assume, assume, aka assume the, the worst that your spouse is doing yeah, so assume the worst.
Pastor Plek:So she goes to assume the worst. They must be out gallivanting around because she lost her chance and he's way more godly than that. And so I think sometimes when we get emotionally compromised, sad, hurt, whatever. We then go to the worst case scenario, which is kind of what she does here as opposed to. My husband would be doing the right thing. Where's the most logical place for him to be?
Pastor Holland:Yeah, and I love as well just verse 5, that my hands dripped with myrrh, my fingers with liquid myrrh on the handles of the bolt. That, when she didn't get up, when she, you know, ignored him, his um efforts to, you know, come to her to love her, he, he left a blessing there, um the thing that has represented their relationship myrrh right.
Pastor Holland:That has represented his presence, his love, his affection for her. Um, he leaves a blessing for her. And so I think, just a reminder and encouragement, a message to the husbands, like when you feel like I'm trying to love my wife, I'm trying to serve her, I'm trying to lead, she's not receiving it or you know, she's still treating me this way, like if, if you're struggling with, you, know the way your, your wife is following your lead or receiving your love. I think this is a good encouragement, just to remember always leave a blessing, never return reviling for reviling, yeah.
Pastor Plek:I thought what you did on Sunday was great. With that, you brought up that exact point.
Pastor Mo:And.
Pastor Plek:I wonder what's a practical?
Pastor Plek:way that we can apply this? What are some ways that that we can apply this? What are some ways that, as you wish, with your wife, but what are some ways that, when there's friction, that you leave a blessing for her to linger, with which I love that? I mean, how can we as men because I feel like I always bring it up in my marriage coaching there's three types of couples. There are couples that are pursuing each other. I there's three types of couples. They're couples that are pursuing each other.
Pastor Plek:I call that the italian couple because they're usually pursuing each other very loudly. There's the victorian couple, where they're like, not pursuing each other, where they're both avoiding each other. And then there's the american couple. Uh, that one person is nagging, the other person is giving them space, and what's happening here is the husband realizes the rejection and he's not going to force himself, but he leaves a blessing. And I'm trying to think through, like, how can we as Christian men, when there is hurt, leave a blessing and maybe you can't get too specific, because then it loses its?
Pastor Plek:yeah reality, but maybe leave a blessing yeah, cook a meal flowers there you go, uh, do the laundry do whatever like normally is her, whatever role, job, whatever.
Pastor Holland:Maybe you'd take the initiative, maybe plan the date night um, also resist the urge to be petty, yeah, to be passive, aggressive, to just ignore or be rude or, you know, give the silent treatment, you know, when all those things, that kind of all the the petty, sinful, immature stuff that rises up in your flesh, that just to reject that stuff and to continue to be a loving, consistent, um, uh, uh, yeah, presence and pursuit of your life.
Pastor Plek:In the marriage coaching I've done. It looks like this the woman is hurt because of something the man did inadvertently, or didn't do, or didn't do, or just like a sin of omission or a sin of commission, but it wasn't intentional. And then the man gets so frustrated that he feels he feels like I can't take that. She just is walking all over and I didn't even, and then he rises up and it escalates a battle of like world war three.
Pastor Plek:And now he's like oh, prison rules, all right, let's go. And I think what happens is that couples create a battle where the husband could go hey, I love you and I want the best for you and for some reason you're not receiving it. I'm going to leave something here for you to remember this by while I give you some space. And if there was never any sense of I don't know payback because I feel like that's where I got to get the last word in I got to make sure she knows how wrong she is I don't want to be a doormat and to lovingly express your care for her, even when she's coming at you with harshness or even untruth. I think that becomes super valuable ultimately for the relationship, because she'll remember how you treat her, not when everyone was lovey and dovey, but when she was wrong or angry or hurt.
Pastor Holland:Yeah, and I think sometimes that can be you know the emotions are rising and stuff and saying, hey, I don't want to argue with you, I want to lead us through this. I don't feel like I'm in a good place to do that right now, but I don't want to just leave it alone. Let's come back to this. Let's take some time to pray instead of just being like, well, screw you, and you know, just like I'm going to walk away and I'm not, I'm not going to. You know, just leaving and giving no indication of hey, I want to come back and resolve, but simply just clearly sharing I love you. We're going to get through this.
Pastor Plek:Let's take some space and some prayer and come back to it at this time or this date.
Pastor Holland:I call that a controlled withdrawal.
Pastor Plek:I think what's really helpful is where a couple, they're pursuing each other in anger and then they say, hey, let's stop to get our focus on the Lord, and then we can come back together to resolve this, that is going to be ultimately the most helpful thing, and if he can lead in that by loving her first and then she can respond. I think what's hard for men a lot of the times is that they miss out on the fact that they are the initiator and the wife is the responder. And anytime you get that backwards, the husband responding to his wife puts him in a space that he was not designed for and it creates a negative outcome. No matter what, even if he goes passive and says I don't want to fight, whatever you want, that doesn't help, because I think what happens a man responding with, hey, happy wife, happy life is not what we're talking about, because I think, that's the struggle.
Pastor Holland:How does a man?
Pastor Plek:stay on the initiative to say, because it could be that his wife is in sin and that she is wrong. But how can he lovingly calm her, stop her, reorient her, leave a blessing and then pursue her again in a way that honors God, his role, her role and I think that's where I feel like most couples struggle is they get to this place of the woman, says, well, this is how it's going to be. And in his head he's like I don't think that's right, but happy wife, happy life, I don't want to battle this anymore, I don't really care. Fine, whatever you want to do. And then she wins, which in a moment feels good for her but ultimately makes her feel less secure and she's going to battle even more as they go, makes her feel less secure and she's going to battle even more as they go.
Pastor Plek:I think that becomes the hard spot. And so for the husband to say, hey, we're going to stop this right now, we're not going to continue battling and I'm not going to engage with you. I want to love you through this. We're going to come back at whatever time to reconnect about this. There's children around right now. I want to parent them really well.
Pastor Plek:And that might anyway. I know there's this. It gets hard to deal with specifics, but the one thing I don't want men to do is to walk away from this like just whatever she wants. That's not the answer.
Pastor Holland:Yeah, that's passivity, that's not leading, that's abdicating your role.
Pastor Plek:You wanted this. You know you get what you want, and so I think that's hard and it's tempting. Obviously it's very tempting.
Pastor Holland:Yeah, I mean, I think we've all been tempted with that, or we've been guilty of it, sure, yeah.
Pastor Plek:I think there's the consistent sort of like I just want the fighting to stop and then the cost cannot be. I'll just respond to you. And that's where you find a beaten man in a home where he is not leading and the wife is carrying that weight, and it makes for things being out of sync. And so I think one of the things that might be wise if that's you then getting to a place where you know talk to a pastor, talk to someone who's godly, and say how can I initiate, even when it's feeling like I'm constantly responding to her gripes or her whatever's and you're on your heels all the time, it's probably because at some point you check out. So you check out into your phone, you check out into sports, you check out into the news, you check out to work out whatever, and you don't ever come back to engage and lead. That becomes problematic, yeah, and you don't ever come back to engage and lead. That becomes problematic, yeah, so, yeah, amen, yeah, all right, hey, any other thoughts on that? Hey, thanks so much for watching.
Pastor Plek:If you have any questions, we talk about faith, culture, everything in between you can text us at 737-231-0625. We'll go to the pastor club. We'd love to hear from you, from our house to yours. Have an awesome.