Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
The Romans Road
351: The Romans Road offers a profound journey through Scripture, guiding us from the recognition of our sinful nature to the embrace of God's redemptive grace. This episode unpacks this powerful evangelistic tool, examining how verses from Paul's letter to the Romans illuminate our universal need for salvation and Christ's perfect provision.
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and welcome back to pastor plex podcast. I am your host, pastor plec. Joining me is pastor holland greg. Welcome back, holland, hello. Hey, we're talking about the sermon from sunday, which was on the romans road, and if you're not familiar with the romans road, that is a way of sharing the gospel, and you know the verses for the romans road, I do romans 3.23, romans 6.23, romans 5.8, romans 10.9.
Speaker 2:Yeah, does it bother you that it goes out of order? Oh, does it 3, 6, 5, 10. Yeah, no, it's kind of like leapfrog If you see it like that. Oh, I like that. It's fine that way. Okay, because the 323, 623, you got the 23s connection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's a doubling. Yeah, the doubling of the 5 to the 10, the doubling of 3 to 6.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot of ways that I can be okay with it going out of order.
Speaker 1:Now, have you ever used the Roman's road to lead somebody to Christ? I have, okay, so tell me, like, at the end of it, what do you say at the end after they go? They believe it. What do you do?
Speaker 2:After they believe it, if they like, confess.
Speaker 1:If they go because do you have, give me your, do you go? Do you have them read the verse or do you read it to them?
Speaker 2:Oh, it depends, you know, if we're like on the street doing evangelism, it's one thing If I'm. Recently I sat down in someone's apartment big family who all wanted to learn how to be a Christian. Everyone got Bibles out and we went through the Romans road. I had each of them read a verse and we talked about it, and so it depends on the situation.
Speaker 1:Do you remember? In prison ministry, you go all right, are you a sinner? Are you a sinner? Yes, Are you a sinner. And is that the way you did it with the 10 kids?
Speaker 2:Not exactly Similar, though. The same thing of just asking do you believe that you're a sinner? Not just pointing at them directly, but the same idea of having each person respond Okay.
Speaker 1:And after they say yes, that they believe that Jesus rose from the dead. What do you do then?
Speaker 2:I encourage them to pray and repent from their sin. Pray and then-.
Speaker 1:Do you lead them through a prayer or do you just kind of like say, go for it?
Speaker 2:Lead them through a prayer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I do too. I know there's been a lot of criticism of the sinner's prayer, but I'm kind of a fan. I am too Like what else do you do? I mean, now, here's the way I've changed it or modified it. So there's one verse that I like to add in which I feel works it's not in the Romans, but it helps out the whole process of praying In Luke 11, 13, it says how much more will the Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to anyone who asks Him?
Speaker 1:So I say, hey, would you like to ask for the Holy Spirit to come into your life? And so they're like sure. And I go, okay, well, are you a sinner? They're like, yeah, do you want forgiveness? Yeah, do you believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins? Yes, believe he rose from the dead? Yes, do you want to ask the Holy Spirit to come into your life? Yes, and then I essentially pray that because I feel like that is a part. You know, you've heard people like praying Jesus into your heart, and I'm not thumbs down on that. I just want to make sure that they understand the Holy Spirit is what dwells them. You know you're joining Jesus on in oneness, so does it come to your heart. Sure, yeah, yeah. So I know that's got a lot of criticism over the years, but I still think it works.
Speaker 1:I think it works too. Yeah, great, all right. So let's talk about Joel. Preached and he shared his story, which is pretty crazy. Preached and he shared his story, which is pretty crazy. What got his attention was his car flipped over four times on the interstate heading to Mississippi from Austin, texas. And that's when he said you know what? I think I've fallen short Time to believe in God, time to believe in Jesus. And he said his life transformed from that point.
Speaker 1:Now, I know, not everybody has a car-flipping experience, but we can all recognize that we fall short and that's the whole point of Romans 3.23, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The whole point of that verse is to remind us all that nobody comes as a Christian, as if they've already arrived. And the thing about Romans is, I think he's running to the church in Rome, so he's assuming everybody already there is a Christian. But even as a Christian, you look back, it's not like anyone came believing, not that anyone came redeemed, that they had to go through some metamorphosis in their spiritual life where they're recognized they were dead in sin to be alive forever. And I think some people have they struggle with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I also think Paul is mindful of the fact that there's going to be unregenerate people in every church who are attending and maybe think they're Christians but actually aren't. People who think that they are saved but aren't saved, and so he's regularly saying things like test yourself, see if you're in the faith. Right, if you, you know, continue to audience. As well as those who would read his letters throughout time, there might be people who go to church, think they're a Christian but don't understand the gospel and so need to understand. Oh, I actually do fall short.
Speaker 1:We have this problem a lot and I don't know if it's really a problem. I think it's actually a great thing, but people think they're members of the church because they've been attending here for like a month or two or longer. Do you ever have that problem at Eastside?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you mean think they're like in terms of your formal membership process?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they think they're a full member and a Christian and all the things.
Speaker 2:And then when you sort of like we have people who visit one time who come to church three times a year and say that we're their home church and they're members, and they really sincerely mean it, because they're coming from going to church zero times a year and so we're the one they go to three times their home church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so why do you, why do you guys do a membership process? Just curious.
Speaker 2:Um. So it comes from uh, hebrews 13, where you know it says obey your leaders, um, and says that they're keeping watch over your souls, um, as those who give an account. And so there's a reality of um that implies a covenantal relationship where you know who your leaders are and you have chosen to submit to them, and your leaders know who you are and are, feel the responsibility for your soul care. And so, because of that um, it's important to know the condition of your flocks, which that's what membership process and membership is for. Know the condition of your flocks, know who the people are that are submitting to your leadership. Let them know what submission looks like in this local context, so that you can shepherd them well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's something so important that's. Our same standard with our church is that we have got to get to a place where we're understanding that we love to invite anybody can come into our church. Anybody can come hear the gospel. We want you to come, no matter where you are in life, no matter what sins you're like actively pursuing. Yeah, like that's come. Come and hear the gospel, come and hear hope, because the only reason that you're doing that is you haven't found something better, and I want to let you know that there is something way better. Now that gets us to where Joel preached about. But Mark 10, a guy who thought he already had better, but he was still empty. He runs up to Jesus. You may know him as the rich young ruler. He runs up to Jesus, bows down kneels before Jesus and says good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? Now, if there was ever a layup for a salvation message, you would think this would be it. Boom Romans wrote it right.
Speaker 1:Romans wrote it right here Come on, jesus Doesn't do that. And and why do you think that is? Why do you think when he's given the layup, he doesn't go straight for? Oh slam dunk, You're a sinner, I'm going to the cross. All you gotta do is believe in me. What do you think he's hitting at here?
Speaker 2:Jesus, I think, is always looking at the heart behind the question, not just the question itself. He's playing chess while he's playing check Boom, exactly, he is going okay, like he knows what's going on in this guy's heart and mind, you know, and wants to address that rather than just the question on the surface. And so you know, when he says good teacher, his response why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone, right?
Speaker 1:In fact, we got a question on that specific one. Let me read it from our uh uh. Here it is. It says from our texting and you can always text us in at 737-231-0605. Hi, I have a question about this. When Jesus says that nobody is good except for God alone, why does he say that If he is God? I'd love clarification.
Speaker 2:Great question.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think what I was just explaining I think is a partial answer to that question of Jesus is he asks things in cryptic ways. Sometimes he asks rhetorical questions or he gets behind the intent of what was asked, like he doesn't just give like, hey, here's the answer, because usually what's going on in someone's heart to bring up that question is the real thing that needs to be shepherded and addressed. So I think part of it is Jesus was he divulged more about himself to those who truly believed, he would refrain from doing miracles in certain places because of their lack of faith. But to those who were close to him, like, you know, his disciples, after he would teach a parable, he'd go sit them down and explain the parable to them. So he would usually he would not just kind of give everyone he didn't go around to the crowds always just saying, hey, I'm God, but he would give um statements that those who um trusted him um would understand Um, so that that's one of the ways that he kind of dealt with people.
Speaker 2:So I think there's some of that going on here. And then another part I think Jesus is, you know, he's drawing out more from this guy Number one, saying like he says good teacher. And Jesus says why do you call me good? I think he's addressing you have a wrong view of what good is, because the guy like ultimately thinks that he's good. I think he's addressing um, uh, you have a wrong view of what good is Right, um, because the guy like ultimately thinks that he's good. He's saying like I kept all the commandments, I'm good.
Speaker 2:He's thinking that Jesus is gooder, maybe yeah, or the you know Jesus is asking him this question to see is he going to make a confession? Is he going to confess Jesus as the christ and god, right? He says no one's good but god alone. And if this guy was, if this guy responded like, well, yeah, but that's you right, then he. That's why I'm calling you good you're in yes, exactly.
Speaker 2:But the guy doesn't say that he doesn't go. Well, yeah, you know, you're um. Like. You know, peter. When he's like you're the messiah, you're the son of god, you know um. Uh, he says no one is good except God alone. You know the commandments. And the guy's like yeah, I've done all those things.
Speaker 2:And so the guy, obviously he's not really recognizing Jesus as God and he's thinking that he's good. And so what Jesus is doing is he's drawing out what's going on in this guy's heart and it self-righteousness, and it's his idolatry of his wealth and possessions. And so I think that's what's going on, is Jesus is kind of like as a spiritual surgeon. He's doing spiritual surgery on the guy's heart and the guy resists it.
Speaker 1:So here's what I thought was interesting when he answers Jesus, you know he goes, cause he goes. Hey, why do you call me good? No one's good but God alone. And you know the commandments? Blah, blah, blah. And he goes. Teacher, not good teacher, teacher. So he downgrades Jesus from God. Yep Right, all these I've kept from my youth. In other words, I'm bearing false witness now. So at what point? And then Jesus loves him. So why not?
Speaker 1:This is the part where I got confused. Like you would think, if Jesus loved him he'd be like I love you enough to tell you the truth about your situation. Your riches are preventing you from heaven. You're going to hell, which I think he kind of does, but he doesn't. He's not like that explicit, but he does tell him exactly the very thing he needs to do to address the heart issue he has of his pride and of his arrogance and of his wealth. That puts him up. At least, I'm not like those people, I'm gooder. And then he goes, you know, go, sell all you have, forgive the poor, and you'll have treasure in heaven. You'll have eternal life, right, I would assume. Like you're going to have treasure waiting for you in heaven and then come follow me and I'll lead you there. And I think that's wild, that well one. Obviously he doesn't recognize as Jesus, I mean Jesus the Christ. He recognizes a gooder person maybe, but he can't conceive of that. Giving wealth away is what, ultimately, is going to gain him more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't know. Just side note about this too Sometimes when you love people, they walk away sad. And Jesus you know you think like if you tell someone a hard truth and they walk away sad, sometimes you might doubt yourself or other people would criticize you. You should have been more loving, but you did yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, why did you say why? You know this person was seeking an answer, why did you give them a hard truth? And you know that's exactly what Jesus did, though, and Jesus says, looking at him, he loved him and said this very hard thing that made him walk away, and, you know, jesus cut to the chase, essentially said here here's the one point at which you know you're unwilling to surrender that was not very seeker sensitive. Yeah, it was not at all.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that would have worked. I think he would have been chastised by the elders of his church if he had done right Like I mean. Imagine just like, if any pastor like went up to somebody and said hey, listen hey, what do I? What must I do in Herod Turnalive? Listen, I need you to sell everything you have. Give it to our benevolence ministry, then come to my house. Yeah, like what? I would probably be fired for that.
Speaker 2:But we give, we get. Maybe not exactly like that, but we give. Maybe not exactly like that, but as pastors we give those kind of hey, you need to move out from your girlfriend and you need to stop sleeping with your girlfriend. Move out, get a place of your own.
Speaker 1:This challenges me of like I'm not going far enough, like, hey, you with all your money give it all the poor and then come move in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because there's times I think there's probably times where we've done that and the people have walked away sad and we feel like, dang, I screwed that up. I should do, I should be more gentle next time when, in reality, like you, actually did exactly what Jesus did and got the same result. And it's because you know, there's also the example of Jesus, the parable of the man who finds a treasure sells of the man who finds the treasure sells everything he has to buy that land so he can have that treasure.
Speaker 2:There may be another man. You know that Jesus gave that exact same instruction to who's like. You got it. Let's go like his disciples, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think recently and it's funny because you know, when people listen to this they think I'm talking about them. I've had like several, several people come to me talking about their relationship and I'm like, hey, keep coming to church, but if you want to be a member then you're going to have to not sleep with your partner. And they are so at first, just like how dare you tell me who I can sleep with and who I can't sleep with? And that definitely is offensive. I don't feel so bad about that one, although the money one I probably would not be. Maybe this is where I need to grow my faith a little bit. Okay, so here's one. This is just, you know, many years ago.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, did we answer the question? I don't know if we need to come back. I Did we answer the question?
Speaker 1:I don't know if we need to come back. I kind of got off track, yeah, yeah. But I have to tell this one story Because I did. A woman one time came up to me and she's like really frustrated alive and I said, hey, give 10,000, I think to the benevolence or to something, give 10,000 to some. Maybe it was a fundraiser we were having at the time and the problem is you never need God to come through for you, so give it away and then see what happens.
Speaker 1:And almost every time I've ever done that, like God has done incredible things and moved in that person's heart and okay, I guess it did that person at first, like nothing happened, like they just got angrier and more bitter. And they did give and I was like, huh, maybe that doesn't always work. And then, you know, years after they left the church because that didn't go very well, they called me and said, hey, I just want you to know I'm really praying for your church. And blah, blah, it was really sweet. My whole heart's been changed. I have the Holy Spirit. That's filled me up, so maybe it was good. That's awesome. It's wild.
Speaker 1:When you look back in the moment you're like gosh, did I read that one wrong? Because she definitely went away sad, and then it was like you know, almost to the point of like who was that? Again, years later, and then she was like, hey, that I still pray for you, I'm grateful for the church, and the Lord is still moving in my life and I was like I was really encouraged anyway. So you're right, maybe be bold is all. As a pastor, you just never know. Alright, let's get back to the question. The question was why does, why does he say that, say that no one's good but God alone? If he is God yeah, and I think we answered it it's. He's doing two things. One, he's challenging his perception of what good is, because he's probably coming to Jesus, because he thinks he is good and he has really good answers and he, if there's anybody that's good enough, it's Jesus, and Jesus isn't good enough. He is the definition of good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like he's saying why do you call me good? Are you calling me good because you recognize that I am God? Or are you calling me good because you think good is God? Or are you calling me good because you think you know good is you? Know? He has this self-righteous version of goodness, and it was clear it's the latter.
Speaker 1:And so I think that Jesus uses that skillfully. The man is exposed, and as he's talking, he should be able to hear himself.
Speaker 2:And I think we can learn from this should be able to hear himself. And I think we can learn from this. Like our you know, we read, like even the question coming in. You know why would you answer in that way, answer a question with another question, right, and then saying this kind of like cryptic statement? But I think there's a lot to learn from that for us as pastors, but also just as Christians. When we're talking to people, you know before we, just as Christians, when we're talking to people, um, you know before we just give here's the answer to your question. Is there a? You know? Can we answer a question with a question to draw more out of, like where they're coming from? You know, it just takes way longer, it does.
Speaker 1:Although Jesus doesn't see, he just pounds him. Yeah, he asks one question and then rips him and he's done. So maybe it doesn't take a looker. I've always been a fan of like I feel like it wasn't an endless stream of questions.
Speaker 2:He just gets one question. Let's get to the heart, and then yeah.
Speaker 1:Gosh to be a great question. Asker, that is the ultimate gift. Maybe we should pray for that. All right, so he then challenges him. The guy walks away sad. I love that. I love your point. It's okay when people walk away sad because they reject the gospel.
Speaker 1:The premise here for him is he has no need and what he needed to do was have less, not have more of something, which I thought was wild. Because usually, what do I have to do to inherit eternal life? You need more of something he's actually you know to have eternal life. You need more of something he's actually you know to have eternal life. You need less of something so you can see your own sin. You can't see you are a liar bearing false witness about yourself and others. Okay, yeah, then we also went on to the tax collectors who could see how much they had fallen short.
Speaker 1:The thing I really enjoyed about this is in Mark 2.14. It says and as he passed by—and are you familiar with that in Genesis, as God says to Moses, I want you to go hide yourself behind the rock or whatever, because my glory is about to pass by. And then, with Elijah, hide yourself in the cleft of the rock, because the glory of the Lord is about to pass by. God's revelation, when that phrase comes up, is he's about to reveal himself. That phrase also comes up in Mark's gospel. Whenever he walks, he's about to pass them by on the water, and they think he's a ghost. And so I thought it's remarkable that it's the miraculous that where God reveals himself here. But the miraculous also is that a tax collector, the scummiest of the scum scum, is about to follow Jesus because Jesus has a plan for him, which I man the fact that a tax collector could obey Jesus as boldly as he did. In fact, I would say that what he does here is exactly what he wanted the rich young ruler to do. He leaves Because at some point he's going to have to sell the house, at some point, all the wealth is going to run out, because he's now given up his position as a Roman tax collector just to follow this Jewish itinerant preacher. Right, I think I actually.
Speaker 1:You watch the Chosen? No, oh, you've never watched the Chosen. No, oh, man, their portrayal of Matthew is hilarious and awesome, so good. And when he leaves the tax collector's booth, it's powerful and funny. So yeah, and he goes home and has a huge party with all these tax collectors.
Speaker 1:And this is where you know and the Pharisees are frustrated. It's like doesn't Jesus know who he's with? Doesn't he know what that looks like to the rest of us who are out here looking at you on the inside with all the sinners? We can't help but assume you are sinning too. What they don't realize also is Jesus isn't just good enough, he is good, and by his presence he makes all the things around him holy, as he did. Things around him holy as he did. That was what made when I was reading through Exodus and then Leviticus, is the things that were holy. Once it touched something else, it made it holy, and then, which was sort of wild, like whatever the I'll have to figure out which one it is whatever the priest touched whenever he was doing some sort of ritual, it would become holy.
Speaker 2:Anyway, huh, yeah, I mean the big, usually a big emphasis in purity and holiness and uncleanness stuff is that uncleanness spreads but holiness does not. And then, yeah, jesus kind of reverses that and that his, when he touches an unclean person, his holiness spreads to them yeah, yeah, seven days.
Speaker 1:You shall make atonement for the altar and consecrate it, and the altar shall be most holy. Whatever touches the altar shall become holy boom and that's jesus like the embodiment of that exactly. Isn't that wild. So I, I, just because everywhere you're right, everywhere else it says um, it's going to be unclean when it touches something nasty, but at the altar, whatever touches the altar, where the sacrifice is presented, where the blood is sprinkled, that becomes clean and wild.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:That is wild Anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Jesus lived. Yeah, I just love that he lived that out. And when he goes into the house of tax collectors and sinners, he doesn't get corrupted by their sin. Rather, his holiness transforms them and they become followers of Christ.
Speaker 1:Which is kind of nice, because you would sprinkle the blood of the animal, and let's say you didn't bring the right kind of animal. But once it touched the altar, that thing became holy. Isn't that wild? I don't think that got you off the hook as far as presenting the wrong thing. However, whatever that thing was became holy, whatever the instruments. Or if the high priest brushed by the altar or whatever, he would become holy. It would tarnish the holiest of that. So I thought that was powerful.
Speaker 1:Anyway, back to the story of the tax collectors. So Jesus is with these tax collectors and by his presence and by his words and by the power of his grace, he makes them clean, which is what ultimately he does with lepers, but he does also with sick people. He's a great physician, which I really appreciate. This, the physician comes to heal those who are sick, not those who are well, and I came to save sinners, not the righteous and the self-righteous is who he's talking about there. I feel like there's a lot of people Christians might be a far stretch who come to church and they don't understand what they need to be saved from. And that's the part that, when you don't understand that you are that bad, that your grip on money, that your grip on money, your idol of control, reveals how your heart not only takes pleasure in, finds solace in the things of this world, when only the things of heaven should satisfy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, there was one of my seminary professors told the story of like someone that he was trying to minister to and she was an atheist, and you know he was talking about sin and we all fall short. And she was like I really don't think I do. She was like, honestly, like I've been married for this many years, I'm faithful to my husband, we're good parents, we take care of our kids I don't lie, I've never, you know, um, I don't do anything hurtful or hateful to people. Like, we try to just live truthful, moral lives. And, um, like I don't think I, like I'm, I'm, I'm straight up, Like I'm a good person, Like I don't do anything worthy of judgment. And um, and he was like but you don't believe in God? And she's like no, and uh, she was like I don't need God, I don't need to believe in a God, I can just be a good person.
Speaker 2:And she was like what sin do I need to repent from? Tell me what, what's something that I do that I need to repent from? Uh, you know, and you know, goes through the list of all the moral, righteous things. And he was like so you know, you have kids right? And she's like, yeah, and he was like imagine, you know, if your kids that you know, you provide the house for them to live in, you provide the food that they eat, you provide instruction for them, love for them, everything that they need, pretended you did not exist. And she was like, well, that would be obviously unacceptable and absurd, you know. And he was like that is what you do with God, that's what you need to repent from. He gives you everything, loves you, takes care of you, provides for you, you know, and you pretend he doesn't exist.
Speaker 2:And she converted, repented and became a Christian. Wow, Right there. And she has never thought of it that way before. And so, like, I think, even like the rich young ruler who's like what do I need to repent from? I'm a good person, I don't kill, I don't cheat, I don't lie, I don't do any of this bad stuff. And you know, like there's there's this false sense of like self-righteousness that we have that we're good enough, um, or that we have that we're good enough, or that we don't need God, or you know what I mean? Yeah, so like, even those who live a good life, good moral, righteous people, fall short.
Speaker 1:Gosh. It reminds me of Stuart Smalley from Saturday Night Live back in the 90s. Stuart Smalley I'm good enough, smart enough, and gosh, darn it. People like me, and that was his whole thing. There you go, that's it, and I think that that's the spiel that people get. Yeah, okay, anyway. So I I think that sort of not solves that question, but man, I I really feel like that's.
Speaker 1:The struggle is is there's two types of people. One's one person says that I'm not that bad, and the other person who feels like they're so bad, like Joel shared about his drug addiction and his alcoholism. And then I think there are people in the audience who go I'm so far gone, and I think that's how the tax collectors felt until Jesus said no, I came here for you, I love you, and so if you could know, if you're the that far gone person, that Jesus isn't just dying the cross as some great example of like. You know, you need punishment in your life, you need to be punished more, but as I'm going to take the punishment for you because I love you that much, it's a huge encouragement and it makes you see how valuable you really are, not because of anything you've done, but because you're a child of God? Yeah, all right. Well, that was awesome.
Speaker 1:I think the Romans Road, in particular, for me, has always been exciting. I'm excited to preach through it the next several weeks here and excited for people to get to really wrap their head around that. So, uh, hey, thanks so much for watching. Uh, we're going to wrap this up. We're going to talk. We talk faith, culture, everything from our house to yours. Have an awesome week.