Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Table-Flipping Jesus: A Divine Act of Righteous Anger
352: "How could Jesus flip tables without sinning?" This question launches us into an eye-opening exploration of righteous anger versus sinful rage. As we journey through Holy Week, Pastors PleK and Holland examine the provocative moment when Jesus not only drove merchants from the temple but took time to craft his own whip of cords.
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and welcome back to pastor plex podcast. I'm your host, pastor plec, and joining me is none other than pastor holland. So excited to have you once again, so excited to be here once again. All right, so let's talk about a question that we received. I think I passed it on to you. Do you still have it?
Speaker 2:uh, let me because it is holy week. It was about Jesus flipping over tables.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Jesus did some flipping over tables during Holy Week and we really want to get into that, especially we're coming up on Easter. Holy Week, jesus goes into the temple, flips some tables, gets the people fired up. And here is the question Go ahead.
Speaker 2:Podcast question. I have a question. They said Jesus never sinned. Yep, jesus knocked over tables where people were doing trade in the worship area. How is that not a sin? Yeah, what do you think? I think it's a great question. Question probably gets asked a lot Um, cause he seems like he's out of control and angry. But yeah, um, and you know that doesn't really fit with the nice, manicured um super feminine Jesus, um that is often presented um for someone to he he makes his own whip. Remember, yeah, he doesn't like buy a whip or find a whip laying around. He actually makes his own whip.
Speaker 1:I wonder how long? How long would it take to make your own whip? He actually makes his own whip for this. I wonder how long would it take to make your own whip.
Speaker 2:You know it doesn't tell us, but it says John 2.15. So this is John's account of the flipping tables. Is the beginning of his ministry, right? So he did it twice, actually, john 2.15, making a whip of cords. He drove them all out of the temple with the sheep and oxen and he poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. Yeah, so pretty intense.
Speaker 1:I mean now when he's whipping people with the whip. How hard is he whipping them? Doesn't say he whipped any people, does it? Well, he drove them out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, may have cracked the whip in a frightening way to drive them out, he was threatening. I'm just saying, you know, I don't want to go beyond what it says.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure, but do you think he whipped a cow or a sheep?
Speaker 2:I mean probably whipped some animals.
Speaker 1:All right, all right. All right, all right. So why? The only verse that pops into my head is Psalm 69, nine Uh, and that's where zeal for your house consumes me. Is that, isn't that right?
Speaker 2:Yes, um. But you also. You know, in Mark and Mark's account, um, it says Jesus was teaching them and saying to them is it not written my house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations, but you have made it a den of robbers. So in John he calls it a house of trade, saying that even just the trade, the commerce that was going on, was not appropriate. But also here he says that it wasn't just commerce in general, it was exploitation or unjust. He calls them that robbers. So he says there's something immoral going on in the commerce itself.
Speaker 1:Right, and he's quoting from Isaiah and Jeremiah. Yeah, jeremiah 7. Jeremiah 7 and Isaiah what? 56. Yes, so, yeah. So that's, I think, is Isaiah 56, the fast. No, isaiah 56, what is Isaiah 56? Let's take a look real quick. I think it's like my house shall be a house of prayer for all nations. That's Isaiah 56. Yeah, where it talks about, you know, the eunuch will no longer say I'm a dead tree. The sojourner, the traveler, all these people will have a home here, ultimately in my house, and my house will be called the house of prayer for all nations. And then Jeremiah seven was a con, was a um, uh admonishment, what's called a rebuke of the priests of Jeremiah's day who were giving false hope and turning the, the worship center, uh, the temple, into a den of robbers where they were looking to make money. Yeah, so I did appreciate that concept there. But let's get back to why. It wasn't sin, but rather fulfillment of prophecy for Jesus to drive people out of it with the zeal, for your house consumes me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, number one, it's his house. Um, he's the Lord, right? You know, if someone is in your house doing something you don't want them to do, you have every right to get them out of your house. That's right, um, and it's not simple. So on, on just a very basic level, um, it's his house. Uh, he calls it his father's house, but's equal with God. It is his house. He's the Lord of the temple, so he has the right to drive people out of there if he wants to, and it's not sin. That's just on a basic level of he has the right to do that. Then, beyond that, his the zeal that he had. You know the verse you brought up.
Speaker 2:Psalm 69 will consume me. It was his anger at them was a righteous anger. Our anger, you know we think about, like the passage from James. The anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. Our anger is often sinful, you know. It's over for selfish reasons or because of a lack of patience or self-control or something like that. Do you think that there?
Speaker 1:is a place where we could have righteous anger and we act out in zeal and it not be sinful. And what ways do you think that we could do that?
Speaker 2:When you're standing up for someone who's being mistreated anger is really a protective emotion, justice, right.
Speaker 1:It's like, yeah, whenever you're bringing justice to a situation. So I feel like when you are battling evil, let's just say a police officer that's a believer and he arrests the criminal or has to fight him with righteous anger to protect the I don't know the store owner or the white or the daughter, or the sorry the, the mom and her daughter or whatever that. That would be a good, good example of righteous anger yeah, righteous anger is.
Speaker 2:You're like what I talk about with my, with my kids, it's you're mad about the right things, the right amount, so you're not mad about selfish things you're mad about, you're angry the right amount, so you're not mad about selfish things You're mad about. You're angry about things that are unjust or wrong. You're seeking to protect, and it's the right amount. You're not exploding in rage over something that's not a big deal or whatever. You know, god is slow to anger is what the scriptures say, and so he's always angry about the right things, with the appropriate amount of anger. And I think we can have righteous anger as well, and that's what Jesus had in the temple. He had a righteous anger that commerce had taken over what was meant to be a place of prayer. And not only was it commerce, but they were taking advantage. They're selling animals so that people could sacrifice, who are coming from all over, and they didn't have to bring their animals. So it makes sense from a business side.
Speaker 1:But then they turn a house of prayer into a business and they start charging more and more exploiting people, and the charging came not necessarily with the animals but with the exchanging of coins, which is why you know Right those exchange rates.
Speaker 2:It was a symbolic display of God's judgment against what was happening, and God's judgment is righteous and therefore what Jesus did there was totally righteous. It was not a temple tantrum in the sense of he was immature or impatient or just frustrated or having a bad day or something. It was thoroughly righteous anger, appropriate for the situation, that showed God's heart and character, about something that was unjust.
Speaker 1:Okay. So I want to get to something that relates to this a little bit about Israel for today and all that, but I'm going to start leaning into that with a quote from Donald Trump. President, all right. So Donald Trump tweeted this week let's see if I can find it, okay. Here's where he said let's see if I can find it, hold on, sorry.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is his quote about Easter. Through the pain and sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, we saw God's boundless love and devotion to all humanity, and in that moment of his resurrection, history was forever changed, with the promise of everlasting life. And then he goes on. As we approach this joyous Easter Sunday, I want to wish Christians everywhere a happy and very blessed holiday. He said, america is a nation of believers. We need God, we want God, and with his help we will make our nation stronger, safer, greater and more prosperous and more united than ever before. Thank you and happy Easter. Okay, then he did do a separate post to Jewish people. So, to all the Jewish families gathering with friends and loved ones this week, have a blessed Passover, and may God continue to watch over the Jewish people, the state of Israel and the United States of America.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is where I think you and I go different directions. But let's talk about what those different directions are and then get into why what Jesus did in the temple sort of was symbolic of ending that ministry. It's therefore symbolic of ending God's special relationship with Israel in AD 70. Would that be a good way to start? Yeah, sure, all right, so let's talk. So your perspective is that, first off, let's just give President Trump some credit on a great, awesome statement about Easter, yeah, the cross, the resurrection, I mean very yeah, explicitly Christian gospel message Awesome.
Speaker 1:Okay, then he then kind of goes back to a Passover thought, which personally I would not have a problem with. But I think to your point. I love what you said earlier before the show. You were talking about how we would never see a go. Have a blessed Ramadan.
Speaker 2:Well, like I mean Biden would say that Right, right. Last year we got a happy Trans Day of Visibility, long message, more so than anything really theologically sound about Easter and the resurrection.
Speaker 1:But first off, we got to credit whoever wrote that tweet for Trump. Way to go, yeah, very good. Whoever, you are like really proud of you.
Speaker 2:Maybe he wrote it, but maybe he's got a Christian team who writes this stuff on him. Who knows?
Speaker 1:He is with Billy Graham, and Billy Graham and him are planning some sort of Holy Week celebration this week to kind of culminate with Easter, so there might be something pretty awesome Anyway. So yeah, I thought that or um wild.
Speaker 2:so yeah, great theologically sound and encouraging name, um uh, frank franklin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's doing something with franklin graham, yeah um, but anyway, yeah, I oh yeah he said he's, yeah, billy. Like you know, billy rose from the dead too, I guess? No, I know it's franklin graham Graham who he's planning some sort of really cool Easter thing with. And hey, franklin Graham's prayer at the inauguration was pretty awesome too. I thought that was genuinely distinctively Christian and I was like way to go, trump. Now I wouldn't have hired uh who who was his? Uh, linda white or no, paula white, paula white or no Paula White?
Speaker 2:Paula White is his office of faith, not on my, like, high ranking or high ranking, high like solid theology type people, word of faith, prosperity type teaching yeah, but hey, you know you get what you get and you don't throw a fit.
Speaker 1:I'll take that message that he just gave for Easter Hallelujah and I don't know who on his team helped him craft it, but it was awesome. Now just gave for Easter Hallelujah and I don't know who on his team helped him craft it, but it was awesome. Now shift it to Passover. He prays that the Jews would have a blessed Passover and Israel would be blessed. And you're like no.
Speaker 2:Well, here's the thing, when he says you know, have a blessed Passover. People who still practice Judaism to this day are those who reject Christ as the Messiah Right and therefore practice a religion that God will not bless. It is a religion that rejects Jesus Christ. It is a religion that rejects Jesus Christ, and so I think to say have a blessed Passover is the equivalent of have a blessed Ramadan or a blessed festival of lights for all the Hindu people, and it's a holiday. That, or it's a religion, I mean, that rejects Jesus as Messiah, and that's problematic for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I am with you on that of why that would come off weird. However, here's, I think, the stance that this is, where probably not a lot of theologically sound people in the background were working with him, but what he's saying is, like I support Israel and the dispensational view, which you don't necessarily agree with, is that God has a specific plan for the nation, the actual political, sovereign nation of Israel, to one day be restored to prominence and that ultimately they will come to faith in Jesus when he reveals himself to them in the last days. Hence the 144, in revelation, uh, come from the 12 tribes of israel. Yeah, so what do we when we look at that and we're we're kind of wrestling with that. Your view is no 80, 70. It's over the fig tree in mark 11.
Speaker 2:Right with that, jesus curses the fig tree because all leaves, no, no fruit represented the Jewish religion and no longer in season so that season's over, that season's over, confirmed by the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. At that point, dispensationalism would say that God, like you just said, god still has a plan for the um remnant. Uh well, for particularly like as a nation, as a nation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Whereas um say there's a plan for the remnant, but it's ultimately, they come to faith in Christ. Yes, they become Christians.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, so Romans 11, you know, all Israel will be saved, um, that's, like you know, I feel like pretty clear whether all means literally every last individual you know who is an ethnic descendant from Israel. Right, that is around the last day of either way. A bunch of people you know, uh, who have, who are ethnic Israelites, um, and yet have been living in rebellion to Christ, will be saved, uh, there'll be a widespread salvation of ethnic Israelites. Um, I do believe that, but I I think where we differ is that the that you know, israel as a nation state still has some particular plan, um, but whereas I would say god's plan is so, 80, 70, israel ceased to exist.
Speaker 1:In fact, let's just be honest. Israel ceased to exist in before 586, it was what seven, whenever israel was taken over by Assyria. That's when Israel, the northern kingdom, died out. Yeah, now the Jews that would be returned to Babylon would be called Israel as well. That was a common thing to alternate Judah and Israel as one or Ephraim.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or Ephraim as one, or Ephraim yeah, or Ephraim yeah. So I look at it as like Israel, officially as a state, was eliminated in what was that? Now, I don't want to get anyone thrown off. What year was Israel, the northern kingdom, yeah, destroyed? Yeah, that was yeah, 721. So 721 bc they're destroyed, uh, and then 586 is when, finally, all of judah is hauled off to babylon. So what I was looking is like you've got all the prophecies of isaiah, of jeremiah, of the one day returning, and they had to spend 70 years in captivity until they were brought back, daniel. There's a part of this where I'm like, could it not be a double fulfillment? It means, ultimately, that Christ is going to return, like the king is going to reveal himself, says hey, what's up? And he would come for his own.
Speaker 2:Here's my pushback on this.
Speaker 1:Hold on, but let me explain real quick and then you can push back. So the Christians like the Christian view of hey, the ultimate, the fulfillment would be Jesus coming back for his own people. But then another fulfillment would be that Israel as a nation state would show up again. They wouldn't be saved because they were a nation state, but they'd be ultimately saved by Jesus when they came to believe in the end times. But there was a distinct plan for that nation state to make all Israel be saved and a plan for Jews, even now, today, to be grafted into the same way that Christians are grafted in, by grace through faith. Now it's all salvation is by grace through faith. I do think there is that particular plan for Israel because I look at Revelation and you're going to go symbolic, I'm going literal, with 144,000 from the 12 tribes.
Speaker 2:Okay, now go. Man, there's a lot Okay. Why? Uh man, there's a lot Okay. Why? Modern day Judaism yes, Explicitly rejects Jesus Christ 100%, and you are saying that God wants to build that up into a nation, a nation of Christ-rejecting people?
Speaker 1:who— who God had a plan for since the days of Abraham.
Speaker 2:His plan is for them to become Christians. Yes, yes, I agree, I agree. So, like you know, the sons of Abraham, the true sons of Abraham, paul said, are those of faith.
Speaker 1:So 1948 comes around yeah, Israel has not existed for almost let's just call it 2,500 years. And then it pops back up on the map with a distinct people who come from all the diasporate back to Israel to reform the nation. Now, granted, were they Yahweh-loving? Let's just go Yahweh-loving, because right now you look at Israel, it's super secular and not exactly a Christian or even a Jewish nation. Right, they're a very secular nation, All right, but they do have the bloodline that they feel like they can trace back to Abraham, so to speak, and to Jacob and to Israel, and so there's got to be something there about that. That's such a miraculous thing, Because why wouldn't God just eliminate them off the planet and just like, okay, we're done, no more Israel, we don't have to worry about this anymore. What is that?
Speaker 2:then I don't know what. God doesn't eliminate all the other God hating Christ, rejecting nations, either. That eventually all nations will serve Christ. The Great Commission, make disciples of all nations. And you know Habakkuk 2.14, the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as waters cover the sea. The earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as waters cover the sea. One day, the whole earth will be filled, as revelation says that. You know that the all the Kings will will come um and serve Jesus. Right, the Kings of the nations, yeah, we'll live in a world where every nation serves Christ Um, but right now you know there's.
Speaker 1:Christ rejecting nations all over the world.
Speaker 1:Um and so to me, the state of Israel is just another Christ-rejecting nation that needs to repent and come to Christ and believe like every other nation.
Speaker 1:Okay, so, man, I feel like when I look at this is what you're kind of saying here. So remember Malachi 4, remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rules that commanded him at Horeb for all Israel. Behold, I will send you Elijah, the prophet, before the great, awesome day of the Lord comes, and he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children, the hearts of children to their fathers, lest they come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction. Are you saying that and I don't know if I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'd love to hear your thoughts that they don't turn back to God here, because then Luke reinterprets it as like turn the heart of the rebellious back to the way of the just, lest they come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction. So he does. You're saying he did strike the land with a decree of utter destruction and they are completely wiped out.
Speaker 1:There is no hope, and the assimilation of Israel in 1948 was a complete fabrication of human beings trying to do God's work or something a complete fabric because they would say like hey, israel deserves to have land, that there was a distinct plan for israel, and so they were like giving them back the land that goes, that goes back to like as dispensationalist, dispensational theology kind of has.
Speaker 2:There's's two plans for physical Israel and the church. Right, that's not where I land and I know people hate me for this, but I think there's one plan. There's no hatred right here. We all love it. There's one plan, One plan.
Speaker 2:And so who does the land belong to? The land belongs to the true Israel, the sons of Abraham. And who are the sons of Abraham? Christians, Christians who are the sons of Abraham, Christians, those who believe in Jesus. Right, and not only the land of Israel belongs to Christians, but the whole earth will be. The meek shall inherit the earth. Our inheritance as followers of Jesus is the whole new creation, and so we're not just inheriting one portion of the earth to inhabit for forever, we're inheriting the whole earth.
Speaker 2:Um, Israel was a microcosm, Um the, the people of Israel were a microcosm of what would one day, you know, be all the nations um serving God. The land of Israel is a microcosm of what would one day be the whole earth, which was the plan from the beginning Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, subdue it, have dominion. That is what God intended from the beginning is that his people would populate the entire world and bring the whole earth into service of him for his glory, as his image bearers. So I think that that is what God is accomplishing, um through his church, his people, and um that the modern state of Israel is um not not special in any way, um as a nation, Um, it is another nation state that needs to repent and see Christ.
Speaker 1:Okay, and I would say God chose them, like not because they're bigger or stronger, but because he chose them because he loved them, which I really love, that reality that when Moses reveals that God didn't choose you because you're bigger or stronger or anything, he chose, you because you're the least.
Speaker 2:Deuteronomy 7, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's like he chose you because he chose you and I think that gets into christian theology of like god chose to save you individually because he chose to choose you, not because you've done anything good, which then helps you be reminded that it's not due to your works that you get saved. Yeah, um, but then second chronicles 7 uh, if my people you know, who call my, if they violate my commandments, I will uproot them from my land that I've given them, but then, if they repent and they turn back, I will. I will uproot them from my land that I've given them, but then, if they repent and they turn back, I will give it back to them. So this is where it's like but they haven't repented.
Speaker 1:Sure, sure, they still reject Christ. Yeah, that's true. So why would he give anything back? You do bring up a good point, but I do. That's why I feel like god's promise to that bloodline is specific, and I know god can raise up from these rocks, god can make children, yeah, are his promises to a bloodline or to a people of faith?
Speaker 1:clearly to a people of faith because you didn't have to be part of the bloodline. However, I right. There seems to be something about Abraham's seed. Jacob's seed ultimately Jesus.
Speaker 2:And we are in Christ if we believe in him.
Speaker 1:So us as Christians. Yeah, that's a good point. Now, I think before 1948, everyone would have been like, yeah, that makes sense. But when Israel returns, then it's hard to go. How do you get rid of all these promises of blessing to Israel and those who bless Israel will be blessed? There's a part of me you don't want to be on the wrong side of that, and what you would say is you're not on the wrong side of it because Israel is the church now.
Speaker 2:Yes, the Gentiles grafted in by faith in Jesus is what the book of Acts is about. The beginning of that. All the epistles are writing about what that looks like for a church that is mostly Gentiles now, and yet, at the same time, all the Gentiles. This is what Paul says in Romans 9, 10, 11, that all the Gentiles coming to faith will arouse jealousy in the Jews at some point in the future, to where there'll be this, you know, massive kind of revival among ethnic Jews, where they convert to Christ. Um, and it'll be this really cool thing. But, um, yeah, who, who is God's people? It's, it's, um, it's those who believe. Sons of Abraham are those who believe, and so those who reject God. They are under his judgment, and so the state of Israel that says Jesus is not Lord. I don't know why they would expect God's blessing. You reject his son, right.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, I guess I'm saying like this is where I look at Ezekiel 37, that army of dry bones where he raises it from the dead. There's a part of me that is it possible that he's talking about the nation state and then ultimately then this is where I go that if he's talking about the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation, he could have said the 12 apostles, apostles. I mean, he could have gone that direct because the 12 apostles were known, but he went to 12 tribes and he names them by tribe. And that's the part where I struggle a little bit when he names them by tribe of the 144,000 that will be saved in Revelation 7. That's where I struggle a little bit because it's like man, it gets into a location, it gets into specific peoples of a tribe of the 12 tribes of israel. Um, that's where I kind of I wrestle with that. I have a hard time going like that's just purely a symbolic pointing to the church, when they could have easily just said you know, peter, john, james, james, paul and the gang.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:All right, that's fair, dispensational. People usually are really like we take revelation literally, right, but I'm like, okay, when it says Jesus will return with a sword In his mouth Coming out of his mouth, and you know, is that a literal like his tongue comes as a right. You know, to me I'm like there are clearly parts that are literal and parts that are meant to be. You know, it's like this powerful imagery of what's happening, and so I think there's a lot of symbolism and imagery in revelation, just like there is in ezekiel and isaiah and jeremiah. Revelation is written like the prophets.
Speaker 1:I think that's what's super hard. This is where I love this when he's talking about I heard the number who were marked with a seal 144,000, sealed, from all the tribes of the people of Israel, from the tribe of Judah Reuben, gad, asher, naphtali, manasseh, simeon, levi, issachar, zebulun, joseph and Benjamin. Leaving out Gad or no, not leaving out Gad leaving out. Who do you leave out? Levi? No, levi is in there. Who do you leave out here? Asher's in there. So you've got Reuben, levi, simeon, judah, you've got Benjamin and Joseph, and then you got Manasseh, which was Joseph's son.
Speaker 1:Let's see if I can find that. Who did he leave out? I know he left out one of the tribes. Let's see here. Oh, dan, yeah, yeah, dan, the most northern tribe. That's where the. I'm thinking that it was probably the first place where they put the um, what's it called the golden calf during, uh, king jeroboam, whenever he, you know, whenever they created the, they put one in bethel and they put one in Dan and said here is the God that delivered you out of Egypt, and they all worshipped in Dan. I think that might be why they lost their land, although, oddly, in Ezekiel 48, dan has a part of the millennial kingdom which just sort of blows my mind.
Speaker 1:So I think that's why it's tough, because I think you would believe in the millennial kingdom, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, everyone believes in the millennial kingdom in some way. Right, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's just that your belief is that things are going to get better and better and better until the millennial kingdom is established. And you'd say from Ezekiel that millennial kingdom isn't necessarily any of the tribes. That's just another way of saying different. That's just God's people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean God's people, our roots. What Paul talks about, you know, um at when he brings up the idea of, like the tree and branches being broken off, he says that the roots are the patriarchs. The patriarchs, the 12 tribes, those are the roots of God's chosen people. But over time, you know, who makes up the composition of the tree begins to be the nations, gentiles, all the nations of the earth, more so than ethnic Israel. But the roots are still. You know what we read in Genesis yeah, so here's this was you know?
Speaker 1:what we read in Genesis. Yeah, so here's this was. You know, when you think about this, this is where it gets difficult. Then when? Because what you believe, sort of matters. If God has a specific plan for Israel, then you probably should be supporting that. If he doesn't, then you're under no obligation.
Speaker 2:You're under no obligation, right, right. So then you can still, you can still choose, you know, to be an ally from, yeah, from a purely political, diplomatic standpoint, yes, but not from any biblical mandate. And I think the majority of conservative Christian America today sees it as a biblical mandate, which I would disagree with. I don't think we have any biblical mandate, because I think the modern nation state of Israel is a Christ-rejecting nation. That, yeah, that God's plan is for his people, the church, those of it's wise or prudent, to, you know, be an ally or have trade or go to the defense of, and all that, but no biblical mandate in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's where I'm like the great news about God's sovereignty. If Israel is supposed to be a nation, it's supposed to be. It's going to happen, regardless of whether I want it to or not. I just don't want to be on the wrong side of that. When I look at God's word and says those who are blessed, who bless Israel and man, that's a tough one for me.
Speaker 2:Now, granted, well, imagine so take that now, yeah, and those who curse Israel will be cursed, right, right, who is the true Israel?
Speaker 1:This is where you're saying the true Israel, jesus Christ.
Speaker 2:Okay, and those who are in him. The true Israel is. True israel is jesus, which I. I like that. And the modern nation state of modern nation state of israel curses jesus christ, yeah, you know like, rejects him as the messiah and therefore, according to god word, god's word should not expect to be blessed by god. Um, why would you be blessed by god when you curse his son? Yeah, when you reject his son? Yeah, when you reject his son.
Speaker 1:So that's my stance, yeah, no, I think it should make people think of, like why are you supporting Israel if you like? That's where it gets hard, and I still am like God has a plan specific to Israel.
Speaker 2:I think God has a plan for every nation to worship Christ, including America, including Israel, including Canada, Mexico, Congo, China should all worship Jesus Christ. I agree, God has a plan for Israel.
Speaker 1:And of the rejecters. You don't think there's a special place in his heart for Israel? That's where I'm like gosh. It just feels like Israel. How could I ever forget you, israel? Like you know, like all the covenantal promises, all of that, as a husband long for all of Hosea, like all of the all of his promises are yes and amen in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2:Second Corinthians one.
Speaker 1:Now I will say like so whenever you look at. Hosea. You know, matthew reinterprets Hosea. He said because out of Egypt I called my son, that's Hosea 11.1. But then that's then taken. It was to mean Israel out of Egypt, out of slavery and all that, yeah. But then Matthew reinterprets it Out of Egypt I've called my son Jesus. Jesus being called out of To escape Herod Right.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I mean, you have a solid backing from Scripture. I just get a little nervous to give up on Israel. Not that I think they're Don't give up on the true Israel Right. I'm not giving up on the true Israel. I'm not giving up on the true Israel, the nation state, though, as I look at it, israelis versus Israelites it's a difference and I don't think that they're saved. I think they are destined for darkness. But I think, in my heart of hearts, I want to see God reveal himself to them. Amen. I want God to reveal himself to them, as we all want, every nation probably to. I want, as you said, the Congo, but I do think God has a special heart for them, because that was his bride, like it's, you know.
Speaker 2:Until well, that's where I would say until you know, until the bride of Christ comes along. Yes, well, his bride. He continued to be faithful to his bride, but his bride is not, did not continue to be a nation state. His bride went from nation state to, well no, through the church, oh sorry. So God has continued to be faithful to his people, but instead of one nation, it is among every nation, a holy nation made from people of every nation. So God has been. That's what you know. First, peter says right, so yeah, the God has continued to be faithful to his covenant, his promises, but with the destruction of the temple, that and Jesus' cursing of the fig tree, the destruction of the temple and Jesus' cursing of the fig tree, the tearing down of the curtain at the crucifixion, and the temple ministry essentially being brought to nothing.
Speaker 1:The biggest thing for me is Mark 11. The fig tree is out of season, yes, and he curses it.
Speaker 2:Right. And so, with all that, God continues to be faithful but is no longer attached to a particular nation state, but rather to the church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree with all that Nice, Except for I still think God has a plan for Israel uniquely, not because they get saved by any other way, but-.
Speaker 2:How is that different than him calling all nations to be Christian and to be saved and repent?
Speaker 1:That's a good point. I just think there's going to be a temple be built there. And now do I think when the temple is built.
Speaker 2:So what kind of temple is this it's going to? Be, Because it's not one that's worshiping Jesus. Right, it's going to be the Antichrist temple.
Speaker 1:Right, it's going to be a pagan temple, but I think that's the plan. Isichrist is going to stand in the middle of, declare himself to be God and everyone's going to worship him, and then you've got three and a half years of utter hell on earth.
Speaker 2:So you think that God's special plan for them is to usher in the Antichrist? Yeah, that's one form of a special plan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that is a special plan, but through that he's going to save the 144,000 that are legit.
Speaker 2:So now again.
Speaker 1:I don't know what that means for our support of Israel, but I do know that God has a specific plan for Israel in the end times, whereas I don't see the United States of America in Revelation, and maybe we're Babylon, or maybe we're whoever we are, I don't know. I see more of it as like and you see it as we're going to have heaven on earth through the Millial kingdom.
Speaker 2:That nations will, as the church grows and spreads throughout every nation and gains influence, with Christians living as salt and light and making disciples, that that will influence nations holistically to where you know. Right now we got this Easter message from Trump Right.
Speaker 1:Hey, that was awesome. Which is better than the trans message last year. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, and are there ways where we're very unchristian as a nation too and need to repent? Yes, but imagine like it's not hard to imagine every nation in the world one day moving in the direction of Christ. Is Lord right. If it can happen here, why could it not happen anywhere else? Due is Lord right. If it can happen here, why could it not happen anywhere else? Due to the influence of the church, due to the Christians living as salt and light.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think over time, as we make disciples in every nation and the church grows and spreads, we'll start to see more and more nations center Christ and honor and want to serve Christ. And yeah, I think that I desire that for every nation and so I pray for that for all nations. We pray at ECC, we do corporate prayer with a different focus every week, and so first week is church, second week is city, third week is nation, fourth week is the world, for more and more nations to come to Christ. Nations like North and South Korea to repent and trust Jesus. Nations where people are being persecuted in the Middle East to become Christian nations and see the church spread and gain influence, and where you don't get beheaded for being a Christian anymore.
Speaker 1:Nice All right, that's good. Lots to think about there. Lots to think about. I think you and I agree more than I thought we did. I just disagree that the world's getting better and better. I kind of go the other way. That's getting worse and worse, but maybe you know there's it's like climate change. You can go either way.
Speaker 2:Well, I think there's. If you believe that Jesus is building his church, yes, and the gates of hell should not prevail against it, then in some sense you have to agree. It is getting better and better because the church is growing more and more Right, and the church is the people of God, salt and light. You know the light of the world, and therefore, if the church is growing, then things are getting better. Sure, and yet at the same time the darkness recoils, you know, at the light, and so persecution can increase as things get better.
Speaker 1:So you have wheat and tares growing together to the end right, and I think that's what you see with europe as it's become dechristianized and almost completely a pagan continent yeah uh, and that's really heartbreaking to watch and that's where you go, that's where it's getting worse and worse, uh, but then in the united states, where you have President Trump saying a very God honoring statement.
Speaker 2:Europe will be Christian again too. You think so? Yeah, because Jesus said he'll build his church and the gates of hell won't stand against it. That's very true, he did say that.
Speaker 1:But could that be the spiritual church that won't be defeated? I guess that's where of course that's true.
Speaker 2:Spiritual church is an embodied church, though it is in a physical world it is.
Speaker 1:However, if they get wiped out because of persecution or we don't do our job in reproducing, then that season of time would end and then Jesus would usher in the millennial kingdom because he was ready to kind of take over the world. So I don't know. I think that's where it can go either way. Hopefully a lot of people at this point have tuned out going like I can't follow you guys.
Speaker 2:The three people still listening that are really into this. You know, email us if you have more specific questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, yeah, we probably lost everybody. All right, hey, thanks so much for watching From our house to yours. Have an awesome week of worship.