Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
A Conversation on Catholicism
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360: What happens when a devout Catholic begins exploring Protestant Christianity? In this illuminating conversation, guest Robbie Cruz—raised Catholic and a graduate of a Catholic university—shares his journey of attending Wells Branch Community Church while wrestling with questions about different Christian traditions. Pastor Plek and Holland navigate theological differences with grace, explaining Protestant distinctives like the five "solas" of the Reformation, justification by faith alone, and biblical authority, while acknowledging the beauty in many Catholic traditions. Their discussion of praying to saints, church authority, and spiritual cleansing reveals fundamental differences while maintaining mutual respect. Join us for this thought-provoking episode that proves theological discussions don't have to be divisive—they can actually bring us closer to understanding both God and each other.
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well, welcome back to uh, pastor plex podcast. I'm so glad all of you are joining us and none other do we have in the building. Pastor holland, greg, welcome, hello, and we have a guest.
Speaker 2:Robbie, introduce yourself hey guys, it's really great to meet you. My name is robbie cruz. I have been coming to wells branch community church for roughly about the past three to four months or so and it's honestly been a really great experience so far. But a little bit about myself. I'm very passionate about things like sports, my faith, my relationship with Jesus, obviously fitness, traveling kind of all over the place and do tech sales for work, which has been really awesome. Been doing it for the past three years and honestly, just really excited to be here today.
Speaker 1:All right, so, robbie, word on the street is you are a fitness guy. Where exactly is it that you work out?
Speaker 2:You know it's funny, my girlfriend's sister's or her brother-in-law's asking me that question every single day. I see him and I always say I go to Fitness Connection.
Speaker 1:It's roughly about 15 to 20 minutes away from here. Yeah, is it the one right across 35?
Speaker 2:Yeah, right across 35. Right by Life Church sort of Yep, that's correct.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. Well, yeah, I know that one. Well, All right, so I think a lot of our people that have a tendency to smoke weed go to the steam room there. Anyway, oh yeah. I'm so glad that you're here. So, Robbie, tell me what brought you to our church, because word on the street is you're Catholic.
Speaker 2:I am Catholic, I was raised in the Catholic Church and I actually went to a school in Washington DC called Catholic University.
Speaker 1:So the Catholic faith has always been Wow, you're hardcore.
Speaker 2:I would like to say pretty hardcore, definitely. But honestly now I definitely identify myself as a follower of Christ. But if I did have to pick a denomination, I would say I'm Catholic. But the reason why I've been coming to Wells, branch number one is because, like I said, my girlfriend actually comes here and she's really inspired me to really check out this church. You know, she's always talking about the great community here. She's talking about, like the people, the great pastor that we have here, even though he has some LeBron James takes.
Speaker 2:I don't always agree with, but honestly, it's the community and the people that she's always talking about, and I absolutely love it. I got involved in Vacation Bible School last week how was?
Speaker 2:that, honestly, it was so much fun. It's funny because I don't the. I don't love like working with kids and that was my first time like working with kids and I was telling her about at noon in the middle of the day I was so tired from it. I was like, yeah, I don't know how people work with kids all day, every day. I felt more tired from working with kids in those three hours than I have in the past three and a half years of doing tech sales. So it was very, very tiring, but a really great experience overall and just making so many friends was really awesome. And that's the one thing I really love about this church is the community. The people are so friendly and I've gotten to meet some really great people here.
Speaker 1:Oh well, man, I'm so encouraged by that. All right, so talk to me about some of the things that have made you curious about going beyond the Catholic faith.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. So there are a lot of things that I agree with with the Catholic faith and things that I have some questions about and I'm really attracted to with this. So, first of all, at VBS the other week we were talking about biblical verses, right, and the kids I don't know if I've ever seen so many kids know the Bible so well and I was just appalled by it. The kids are spewing out random Bible verses just off the top of their head like that they're memorizing verses and I thought that was so beautiful and so inspiring just hearing how well they knew the Bible. I think another thing too that I really love and have gotten to spend a lot of time with is really just seeing like the fire that you know, the young people have for Jesus in these churches.
Speaker 2:So one thing that's different between the Catholic faith and, you know, the Christian church is definitely the way, like you know, we praise Jesus right. In the Catholic faith it's a little bit more quiet, a little bit more ritualistic, like we have songs in there, but they're more like hymns. So it's much more quiet in here. It's, you see, people like closing their eyes, they're like reaching out, like talking to Jesus literally, and that's something that I really like and I think is such a beautiful thing. And the final thing, too, is like with the way that you know the Christians pray, right Like a lot of the Catholic prayers are prayers that are like actually written out and you know it's something that you know we've been doing and pretty much is just part of the history of the church, whereas with the Christian church a lot of it is like you're really just speaking from your own heart. So I think putting all those things together is something that's really interested me.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what about? Let's go back to this Sunday. Anything stick out to you from this past Sunday?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. The first thing was that LeBron James comment. Lebron James, in my opinion, is the greatest basketball player of all time. He's the greatest. I could talk all day about this. A lot of people and I we talk about that.
Speaker 1:The only thing he has really going for him is he's stayed pretty healthy over 20 years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's been in the NBA now for about 21 seasons, I think, and he's got a career 27 point per game average. He's been very consistent throughout his entire career without getting hurt, making several finals appearances, and also every team that he's on ends up being a deep playoff contender. But when he leaves a team, usually they fall off the map. So the impact that LeBron James has is one of the greatest impacts I think we'll ever see of any athlete in sports history.
Speaker 1:So the only thing I just take note of is that, lebron, the reason why he may not get hurt is he quits trying about the last five minutes of the game.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean considering the fact that he's got almost as many playoff buzzer beaters as almost anybody. I don't know the exact number.
Speaker 1:But after 21 years you should I mean like of course right.
Speaker 2:So his should I mean like of course right, so his field will percentage in the last three seconds in the playoffs, I think is about 49 from the field, which is like one of the greatest. So he is a very clutch player. But you know, I I do know lebron james isn't the reason why we came on to talk today, but honestly, that lebron james comment that you made on sunday.
Speaker 2:I thought it was so funny and I remember like all of us were just like laughing each other. We thought it was a really really, um great thing to bring up. It was fun.
Speaker 1:I I listen, I I have listen. Lebron james is super generous. He's a huge philanthropist, uh, so I appreciate that about him and so, way to go, lebron, he might you know, if you were on the bulls and and a team that I liked, I'd be really for him anyway, uh, yes so let's talk about, uh, some of the things that you have questions about, like regarding um being one of the things you're as you're checking out, like the christian faith, you know, beyond catholicism. What are the?
Speaker 1:because we talked together was last week yeah, it was last wednesday, I believe we talked last week week about some of the questions that you've been having and I kind of wonder. I thought that was such a good conversation. I wanted to have it again with Holland, who's very astute, and I would love to kind of go through some of those things that you were really kind of wrestling with and asking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. You know, Pastor Plek and I we had a lot of theological questions last week, but I remember one of the main themes that I really wanted to understand was just the difference between the Catholic faith and the Christian church. Obviously, when it comes to thinking about it from a very general perspective, something that I hear a lot about is Catholics believe in, they pray to saints, they pray to Mary, and they are spending lots of time doing things like confession, adoration, and adoration is like meditation time, and that's something that is a lot different than the Christian church, which I do know about, but I think it'd be really great just to talk quickly about some of the key differences that you think of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, outside of that, either, or anything.
Speaker 1:No, this is good. Let's just go back to the Reformation. Martin Luther back in the day he brought up the 95 theses. Right, and the 95 theses were the issues he had at the Catholic Church, and I think we can all say this doesn't just happen to the Catholic Church, cor across the board in any human institution, even one that has great intentions to worship and serve the Lord. And so what the Pope was doing back in Martin Luther's days, he was selling indulgences.
Speaker 1:Are you familiar with indulgences? And so if you're not familiar with that, that is a like when you purchase an indulgence, the Pope would sign a piece of paper saying that your dead ancestor, their purgatory, is going to be paid off. And so when you hear the coin ring up from purgatory, a soul springs. They would have literal street preachers collecting money that would say like do you want your family members to burn in hell? Do you want to be sure you too can be sure of their eternal salvation?
Speaker 1:If you purchase this papal bull that says that your brother Bob, who died last Wednesday of plague, hey, he is going to be resting eternally, as any good family member would do. They're looking at it's like I'd rather be safe than sorry, I want to make sure I'm good with God, and so that was probably one of the primary things that drove the Reformation was saying that your salvation could be bought or your salvation could be paid for, and that just seemed like a wild thought, and so the big thing that Martin Luther said is that salvation is a gift of God in which he makes the sinner righteous on the basis of grace, by means of faith, and so I think that becomes the primary difference, and I think the Council of Trent which do you know what year the Council of Trent was 15, um, it came out right after the Reformation.
Speaker 3:Something like that, yeah 1545 to 1563.
Speaker 1:I mean, they met for almost 20 years trying to figure out what makes the Catholic Church distinct. What are they going to like? Draw the line on what is an anathema? And one of the things that was anathema was the idea that you could be saved by grace alone, through faith alone, and I think that became whenever you look at the Christian life. There's nothing that you bring to the table that would allow you to be saved other than your sin. You bring your sin, and Jesus's blood is the thing that covers you and then, but that doesn't mean God doesn't want you to do good things, and that doesn't mean that good things don't get you eternal reward. It does. However, what justifies you as a Christian is the blood of Jesus alone. If you add anything else to it, you take away from what Jesus did on the cross, and that's why I think Christians get so. Aggressive might be a good word for that. What do you think, Holland? What would be a good way to say that?
Speaker 3:that what do you think, holland? What would be a good way to say that? The difference between? So a lot of the time you know in this conversation talk about the Reformation and things like that you have. Have you heard of, like the five so-laws? Have you heard that before? I don't think so. Okay, so the five so-laws of the Protestant Reformation are kind of like these key points of distinction between what would become Protestantism, which was initially an attempt to reform the church, not break away from it, but that's why it's called the Reformation. But with the Pope's refusal to accept the reform, it led to this kind of breaking off of the Protestant reformers. The solas are this. Sola this is the Latin phrase sola, meaning alone, or only so. Sola scriptura scripture alone, is the highest authority. It doesn't mean only authority, but the highest authority, whereas Catholics would teach that tradition church, the pope papal, infallibility was a big thing.
Speaker 3:The pope, when speaking ex cathedra from the seat of Peter, right that he is preserved from error by the Holy Spirit and everything he would speak from that position would be true. This is something Sola Scriptura says. Actually, we have the inspired true words of God in the scriptures and that's our highest authority. So that was a big one. Sola Gratia, sola Fide, solus Christus are grace alone, faith alone, christ alone.
Speaker 1:And then Sola Deo Gloria. Yeah, and then Sola Deo Gloria is the final one, for the glory of God alone, 289,.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then Soli Deo Gloria is the final one, for the glory of God alone, which, yeah, the three of faith alone, grace alone, christ alone are like Ephesians 289,. You're saved by grace, through faith, not by works, so that no one can boast this is a gift of God, that emphasis of that. It's your faith in Christ that justifies you. That was a big deal. What Plek brought up about Vatican II? No, council of Trent, vatican II is different.
Speaker 3:Council of Trent was, you know these pronouncements of saying you're not justified by faith alone. And if you read, like the actual canons of the Council of Trent, it goes very specifically, says it in multiple ways, that essentially your good works are required for your justification, whereas a Protestant would say good works are required as part of your final salvation, but they come as the fruit of your justification. If that makes sense, you are justified by grace alone, through faith alone and Christ alone, and then from that place you are filled with the Holy Spirit, sanctified, and from your justification will flow good works. That your life would be marked by good works. Does that make sense? It does.
Speaker 2:And something that I think I would definitely love to pick your brains on and I hear this all the time from like catholics about solid scripture, just sort of scriptura. Yeah, is like the catholic church. Like you said, it relies on history and tradition. A lot of the most of the bible's pretty much just been interpret by the. The church, right like the church agrees on what the bible means certain things. Something that I think is interesting is what's your take on pastors having different opinions and different interpretations on certain parts of the Bible?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we all do Hall, and I don't agree on everything, and there are certain essentials that I think are essential to agree on, which I do think is justification by grace, through faith, justification before God. That's a huge thing to agree on. Uh, and I think that that there are some minor things that we might disagree on, kind of like how I agree the game of basketball is awesome, but I think michael jordan's the goat and lebron is a like, not even first team like I think that's where we could go with that right and I would say.
Speaker 3:On that too, I would say there are a lot of in like modern evangelicalism today. There's a lot of wacky stuff that you look at and you go man, this is what happens when you just allow anyone to, sola scriptura, come up with their own interpretation. You get a lot of really, you know, heretical, crazy stuff that becomes mainstream Christianity. So, like I, like I'm very pro-history and tradition, but Sola Scriptura says scripture alone is the highest authority. So tradition and history, I think those things are very, very important but are subject to scripture, not equal with scripture. Equal with scripture is what the Catholic teaching is.
Speaker 3:And so when you have something like Vatican II official Catholic doctrine that says Muslims and Catholics worship the same God, right, I look at that and I go you got a Pope and an official church doctrinal ruling that says Muslims and Catholics worship the same God, muslims and Christians worship the same God. I look at that and I go there's no way that that is true. And so I would say that you have deviated from scripture and therefore your council of, or your Vatican too, is false because it disagrees with scripture, which is the highest authority.
Speaker 2:Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:It does, yeah, I understand what you mean and I think it's like the exact words from the second Vatican council's document Lumen Gentium affirms that muslims profess to hold the faith of abraham and together with us, they adore the one merciful god. So the church thus teaches that god of abraham is indeed the same god worshiping consolatism and islam, despite differences in theological understanding and practice. And I think that's the problem that, um, the catholics for a long time were hardcore and really until Vatican II were hardcore Like it's Latin only yeah, and I think they missed it from on the side.
Speaker 3:They were very anti-Muslim. They were very anti-Muslim. In fact, they did crusades. Ie the crusades, yeah.
Speaker 1:And now they're like I mean, muslims are basically Christians, is what they're essentially saying, which is wild right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's completely different. It's completely different. So I think it's not that Because the God of Abraham is Jesus Christ. Muslims would say Jesus is a prophet. But remember, jesus before Abraham was, I am. He is the God. Paul calls him the rock. In the Old Testament, you know the water from the rock uses that illustration. It says Jesus was the rock who nourished them. In the Old Testament, you know that the water from the rock uses that illustration. It says Jesus was the rock who nourished them in the wilderness. Jesus is the God of Abraham. And so to say, muslims worship the God of Abraham? No, they don't. So that's where I go, man. I actually.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of things I love about that you brought up. You brought up the liturgy, and you know um written prayers, uh, traditions, like. I think these are all really wonderful things I would. The Protestant view, though, is that they they must be in conformity with scripture and subject to scripture. They, they don't have the same authority as scripture. They're only helpful in so far as they agree with scripture, and where they deviate from Scripture, they're no longer helpful. But does that difference make sense?
Speaker 2:It does make a lot of sense and I totally understand.
Speaker 3:I'm not saying you have to agree with it.
Speaker 2:No for sure, and I'm pretty flexible and pretty easygoing with that kind of stuff. So I totally get what you mean. And something, too, that I thought was interesting about just the Christian church as a whole that I was talking to Pastor Plek about last week is I've been to just some background about myself as well when I first moved to Austin. A lot of my friends are Christian Not many of them are Catholic and one of my close friends goes to a different church right and I would go to like his church and his church service, and I noticed that when I compare the way that that church, those services were ran was a little bit different from the way that this church was being run. I think something that's a little bit interesting and I would love for your guys' take on it is.
Speaker 2:It seems like some Christian churches are ran in different ways, or the services are operated differently. Yeah, tell me what you mean by that, like with the way who might be preaching or with the way that they're preaching certain things, the way that the Catholic Church operates is in case many of you haven't had a chance to check it out. It's pretty much like the entire church agrees like okay we're going to read like this.
Speaker 1:Reading like this will be our first reading. Whether you're in the United States or in Italy, correct, everyone's on the same page.
Speaker 2:This is the first reading, this is the second reading and this is our gospel Right.
Speaker 2:And then after that there are, like, certain prayers, and what I've learned is that in Christian churches I and I could be completely wrong, so let me know if I am but they don't always like talk about the same verses or the same story every week and also, like I said, like with the way that certain people are like running the church, it might be a little bit different, like like one church has like a female pastor which is a little bit different from others and so a little bit of different things. So like is that something that you think is like normal or like what do you think of that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Is that normal Great question.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So there are, uh, so there are other non-Catholic traditions that follow a similar. So, like Anglicans, for instance, follow um, the book of common prayer, um, which is, you know, a book of here's the readings, here's the old Testament, you know the new Testament, the gospel readings, here's the prayers, here's the liturgy. You know very similar. But then you have traditions like Baptists, who you can visit. You could take a snapshot of a hundred Baptist churches around America one Sunday morning and they're all preaching a different text, and one is acapella and the other one is a guitar and the other one is an organ and another, you know, it could be all. There's a lot of differences like that.
Speaker 3:So there are these different traditions and denominations that are out not Catholic, but there's some that are very similar to Catholicism and some that are very different from it. And so, depending on which tradition and denomination, you're going to have more liturgical or formal, or some that are just like show up and the pastor's got shorts and flip flops on and you know preaches a, you know a short sermon, or something like that, whereas you're going to have some that are a Baptist church but everyone's in a suit, they're following. We teach verse by verse through these books of the Bible, 45-minute sermons. We're going to have these written out prayers. We're going to sing hymns. We're going to follow the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, you know, as our Doctrinal.
Speaker 1:Bound 1689.
Speaker 3:There's going to be a lot of different variants for that, and so I'm basically saying like I agree that there's not just one type of Protestant church. There's a bunch of types of Protestant churches, for better or worse. I think you could argue that there's some good things that come from that in contextualization of the gospel to different communities. There's also some things, like I mentioned earlier, where you get off the rails and you separate yourself from history, tradition and authority outside of yourself and do things like you mentioned, like having a woman pastor or preacher, which goes against what the Bible teaches in 1 Timothy, and whereas that wouldn't happen in a Catholic church. They're hardcore about no ordaining women, right, yeah, and so, from the top down, no matter what Catholic church you're at anywhere in the world, you have to all submit to the same rule, whereas Protestants, you have a bunch of different types of Protestant churches, right, and a lot of them that have become more liberal and progressive, that have started doing things that would disagree with 2000 years of church history.
Speaker 1:Which I would say like within the Catholic church. Oddly, you also have different I don't even call them denominations, but different orders. So you got the Augustinian order. Jesuit order, Franciscan order. All these different orders have different. Like you know, the Augustinians were more follow the Bible, salvation by grace, through faith, for the most part, Whereas Jesuits were like we will obey the Pope even more, you know, like we pledged to the Pope and then you got Franciscans who just love to hang out with birds you know, or whatever, I don't know.
Speaker 1:You know, it's like uh, I don't know that for sure, but like, I think there's a reality that the different theological structures were nuanced to a point very, very lenient on, and you can kind of go any way you want within the Catholic church, uh, as long as you didn't go against the Pope and as long as the Pope gave you sort of like approval.
Speaker 1:And so I think what you found for a long time, and when it was more of a high structured, the Pope was exerting a lot of power is that it was very contained, but as the Pope wanted to be, you know, vatican II kind of changed the game. It's like we're going to turn the. You know, instead of pushing everybody out, we're going to invite everybody in and we're going to be a little bit looser on theological doctrines, which allowed for more orders to kind of take in their own thing. Anyway, I think that's sort of the difference. So you probably have the same thing within the Catholic Church as you do outside the Catholic Church. It's just, you know, a lot of those guys still wear the hat of Catholic, which is unique.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, does that make sense or answer your question?
Speaker 2:It does make a lot of sense and it does answer my question and, kind of, like you said, every church there's no perfect church, at the end of the day, right, that's the way that I've always looked at it. Somebody once told me no church is ever going to be run perfectly because they're all ran by humans. At the end of the day, right, like this church isn't perfect, my church isn't perfect, you know, if somebody's listened to a different church or from a different church, it's not perfect.
Speaker 1:You know it's ran by a human being, right? Okay, so then let's talk through. Then. What about praying to saints? Because that is always a big one that Christians usually criticize Catholics for is like why are you praying to a saint? What would your like when you get received that like criticism? What's your pushback?
Speaker 2:You know I get that all the time and my initial response is always okay, if I'm asking you to pray for me. It's kind of like that with a saint, right? When you tell a saint, hey, I'm struggling with X, y and Z, will you also pray for me? That's the perspective that I've always approached it with and I think many other Catholics approach it with. It's the equivalence of asking somebody else to pray for you, and also I know a lot of Catholics they believe that.
Speaker 2:I would say we believe a saint is somebody that is very close to God, right? So it's like you're asking somebody who's very close to God to pray for you to God. Now, I know that the Christian church is more so like you only pray to God because God is high authority, like that, right. And I think the Catholic approach is we do agree that God is all authority and he's like the highest that there obviously is. But when it comes to like talking to saints, it's more so like saying okay, like will you pray, like for me and talk to God about this?
Speaker 1:It's kind of like seeing the saints as a as an intermediary on your behalf to talk to God, because he is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, an intermediary that's very close to God right now, like that's the way I know a lot of Catholics approach and that's how I was raised, praying that way to saints.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I think the Christian pushback on that is from 1 Timothy 2, where it says for there is one God and there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
Speaker 3:But his point is saying that even though there's one mediator, I mean, obviously, yes, there's one mediator, but even so, you would still ask me to pray for you. Sure I would, the difference being that I'm alive in the flesh, with you here, rather than Someone has passed away Dead. You know, soul in heaven, I think. Like theologically I would go. There's no example of that in scripture that I'm aware of Praying to a dead saint. The only time prayer is uttered, you know, in scripture it's always directed unto God personally. And then the other logical that's a theological, just a straight up logical thing would be how would you, you know, in your understanding of this doctrine and this idea, are saints dead saints? Are they omniscient? Are they able to hear everyone's thoughts and prayers? If one million people pray to a saint at the same time, are they omniscient? Are they outside of time? How do they pray for a million prayers at the same time and hear those? How does all that work logically?
Speaker 2:I do know that's a very theological question and I believe that if there is a saint receiving that many prayers, then they do hear all those prayers and they're able to you know, pray for you Like. I do know that, like mother Teresa is an example, like she's a saint, like lots of people say prayers to her. You know it's the same thing with Mary, right, like obviously Catholics we like say lots of prayers to Mary, like you know the hail Mary prayer. So I think it does operate that way of like, like they do hear all the prayers and they do pray for you, cause, like God is able to hear, you know, everybody's prayer and he understands everything that everybody's going through. And so I think it's kind of like the same thing with saints and like people that you know Catholics may like pray with is like that is all being heard by them and they're able to pass it over to God.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:And I think that's the part where we would go, man only Scripture would say only God has omniscience.
Speaker 1:You're now tapping into all these people's brains and maybe you know, a Catholic might say well in heaven, you're a lot smarter and your ability to take in information is a lot more pure, or whatever. I just think, probably just going from Scripture, deuteronomy 18, whoever inquires of the dead is an abomination to the Lord and you're like, just by that, I wouldn't want to touch it. If it's an abomination, like I'm, like you know, I'm going to step away from that. I'm not worshiping, I'm not. You know, necromancing would be like, you know, love of the dead.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's my thing. There's no positive examples in scripture, or I don't know. Have you thought about that? What's your answer to that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do think about that quite a bit and I think the main thing that I always think of is just like that's pretty much just how the Catholic Church was always raised and how it's always been built together, and there are lots of miracles or lots of stories of people saying prayers to saints and these miracles happening. So I do like to think that there could potentially be some truth to maybe that working out. But that is one of the questions I often do think about. I think a lot of Catholics often think about Is this really the righteous thing? And obviously the history of the Catholic Church says that might be what God wants for us, so that's what a lot of people stick with.
Speaker 1:But that's something that I know some people disagree on.
Speaker 3:You're wrestling with, which I appreciate, and a lot of people have believed it for a long time. So, like you do, have that on your side, yeah, where you're like, okay, this is something people have done for a long time, a long time.
Speaker 3:I think that does have some weight, Like when I want to— dangerous to just, you know, naively dismiss what the church has taught for a long time. At the same time, you know, I would say, um, it's. It's also dangerous to assume the church has always gotten it right, and so, like when you, if you look back and if you study like the church fathers, medieval theologians and stuff it's not unanimous about praying to saints.
Speaker 1:Like this is not something that everyone believed.
Speaker 3:There are some things that everyone believed and you're just like, but there's no doubt about this one. There's creeds and councils that were formed. There's other ones that are like well, some people believed in this and other people didn't. Well, some people believed in this and other people didn't. So praying to saints is one of those ones Perpetual virginity of Mary. Praying to Mary, praying to saints, is one that there's not like unanimous agreement about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, that's like the key Every time I talk to somebody who's not Catholic but is Christian versus Catholicism. That's like the one thing.
Speaker 1:I know that they're completely divided on Like ready to go.
Speaker 2:It's like they're completely split off on it, right, like so many catholics I know are like, yep, we're sticking to the saints, we're sticking the tradition. Then the process are like whoa, like we're not, like we're not touching that, like obviously, that's like you said, like scripture kind of goes a different way about that. And then the catholics are like, well, solid scripture I know we don't always agree with, so that's a lot of people go back and forth on. I do know about.
Speaker 1:Yeah okay, so yeah, so interesting, all right, so where are you like? So where are you personally in this whole faith journey? And, like you know, because this is something I think a lot of people raise catholic, they start interacting with the christian church. They like a lot of the energy, that there's a good vibe. Is that the holy spirit or is that just cool music? Which one is it? You know it. Where are you at right now?
Speaker 2:So this is an interesting question and it's something that I've spoken with you about, I've spoken with other people about. So there are lots of things that I agree with with both churches and there are things that I'm not so sure I fully agree with, like I said, with the Catholic faith. I love adoration, I love meditation, I love just being in the church and being able to talk to God. Something else I love about the Catholic church daily service. I love daily service.
Speaker 2:Getting to receive the Eucharist every single day is something that I absolutely love. I love the. I'm a historian, right Like I talk about history of, like baseball bat, like things all day long. I love the history of the Catholic. Church, I think the churches are so beautiful, so I love all that put together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so far we're on the same page.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3:If you're comparing a giant, ornate Catholic cathedral to the building next to CVS, no offense. I gotta say I gotta give it to the Catholic. Now Protestants do have some beautiful buildings too. There are, there are. Go ahead.
Speaker 2:So I went to school at Catholic University. Like I said, the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception If you haven't had a chance to look at it one of the most beautiful churches and I'm actually going to Rome in a few months oh wow, churches there too. So nice, like I love the architecture, I love the history behind it, I love just how beautiful like those churches are. So I put all that together and those are things I love about the catholic faith. And then, on the contrary, there are a few things that like I kind of like wrestle with a little bit. Like kind of like the whole saints conversation, like we were talking about a few minutes ago, like that's something I kind of go back and forth on. Um, I also go back and forth on like the whole um.
Speaker 2:You have a giant, a long written prayer, and I think that's good to read a written prayer, but I think the most important prayers truly come from your heart. It's like when you fully repent and you're really sorry for your sins, that's got to come from your heart and I think that's something that is really important. I think another thing that I really love just about the Christian church as well, like I said earlier, is like like it's very young, it's very vibrant and like there's such really great community and it seems like the people are a lot less. I guess like strict in the word is kind of like the right word. I don't know. Like I remember one time I went to confession and the priest like gave me a very hard confession. He, he was like very hard on me. It's like, look, I know what I did was wrong, but like I'm trying to like repent and like feel like just kind of like like really bring me down. I don't know if that's like the way that God fully approaches things so like.
Speaker 2:I think Jesus like he'll definitely be hard on you, but like he's very encouraging and sometimes I feel like the Catholic faith could do a better job of that. Those are just some things off the top of my head that like I think about when it comes to like where I stand personally. So it's a lot of prayer being put into it and I definitely go back forth on it.
Speaker 1:You're definitely wrestling with it. It's cool to watch you sort of in the middle of this, I guess, wrestling, struggling, trying to figure out.
Speaker 2:And I think we'd all say, like I love what you said about adoration. You just like to go sit in the church and kind of look up and enjoy God. It's so beautiful, I love that. Like, literally, when I first moved to Austin, I really didn't know anybody right, and so I would spend my Friday nights, my Saturday nights, my Sunday nights like just sitting in the Adoration Chapel and like just like closing my eyes and looking up and like seeing Jesus right in front of me and it's like all that like loneliness I felt was just gone, like that was something that I absolutely love personally and like that's one of my favorite things about, like you know, being part of the Catholic faith is being able to go to adoration.
Speaker 1:So is adoration like certain times, or is it just always?
Speaker 2:open Depends on the church you go to Some churches they'll have it set so it's open for a few hours in a certain day of the week, like some church will do like monday nights, like six to nine. I personally prefer what's called perpetual adoration, which is pretty much just adoration. Chapels open all day, every day, and so it's just time for you to just enter the church and just sit in front of the eucharist. Wow, yeah, and honestly, like I said, like when I first moved to austin, it was very hard on me. So I'm from Maryland personally, so I moved across the entire country, so like a cross country move where I really don't know anybody, in a big state like Texas and big city like Austin, just like having like communion right there in front of me and having Jesus right there.
Speaker 2:It was so, it was so helpful for me and that really pushed me through the first few months here. That's awesome. Wow, it was so helpful for me and that really pushed me through the first few months here. That's awesome, man. So that's something I really love about the Catholic faith and, like I said, like daily mass as well, which is something I really appreciate, and I could be completely wrong. So let me know. Are there Christian churches that have daily service, or is that something that the Christians—.
Speaker 1:No, that's basically a Catholic-only thing. But listen, I don't think anyone's against it.
Speaker 3:Well, the reformers did it, Like the guys you know, when you look at Protestant Reformation roots again, they wanted to reform the church. They wanted to say we've gotten away from the scriptures. They weren't trying to innovate and start something new, they were trying to return to the ancient faith and they, you know, trying to maintain the things that were good and so like daily services. So for Calvin in Geneva, switzerland, his whole goal was like getting what did he say? A psalm-soaked city was his vision. For Geneva Was where, you know, every single day, there were church bells, there was preaching, there was psalm singing, um, and so by the end of his life, he achieved that. Geneva became a city like that Um and, you know, eventually caved and uh, uh, but for a time, you know, it was really this, really this beautiful thing that maintained, you know, I would say, like the best parts of um, that maintained, you know, I would say like the best parts of Catholicism, while reforming the doctrine to be more in, you know, alignment with scripture.
Speaker 3:And so there is a history of that in Protestant churches today, like even in American history, early American history, it was way more common to have multiple services Sunday morning, sunday evening, midweek, prayer services Today. Multiple services Sunday morning Sunday evening. Midweek prayer services. Today it's like the church has gotten a lot weaker in this sense of you know, you meet Sunday mornings for an hour and that's about it for the week. Maybe a small group, but the church has ditched a lot of things in an attempt to like oh, we don't want to bog down your schedule with too much stuff. In an attempt to like, oh, we don't want to bog down your schedule with too much stuff. And the result, I think, is like your people are falling away from faith because they're not being trained and discipled.
Speaker 2:So one thing I will say and I was going to ask why that might be the case but like people being super busy, I tell you I get that. Something I find very interesting with the Catholic faith I personally go to daily mass, or at least I try to go to daily service. There's a lot of people there and I know that people are on fire for it. So when it comes to people might be busy, I personally think it would be really great for Christian churches just to kind of go back to that tradition of cell branches every single day.
Speaker 3:Hey, I'm with you on that.
Speaker 1:Hey, me too. Let's do it. I think that would be a really awesome thing. I'm with you on that. I Noon services and that way you take the Lord's Supper, you feed on Jesus and then head back to work.
Speaker 2:Boom yeah, and I know that there are lots of great Bible study groups and lots of great prayer groups in the churches and stuff, and so I just think it would be very interesting to see that kind of impact. But that's one of my favorite things about being Catholic, so a lot of Catholicism.
Speaker 3:Roman Catholicism is like there's no apology about. Church is the center of your life, right? Whereas in the Protestant evangelical modern church today it's way more like church is kind of on the sidelines yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think that's a serious error that we really need to correct in like modern day Protestant church is like church needs to be the center of your life, like return in your own personal life. And culturally, like you know, we've lost. We were just talking about this earlier in New York. You went from early America, new York church bells ringing to say hey, it's time for prayer, it's time for church, and then secularism rising and getting rid of that. To where now you've got the Muslim call to prayer over the loudspeaker hat, which Catholics would say, I don't know, it's no problem.
Speaker 3:But, Protestants are like, hey, this used to be a Christian city and now it's a Muslim city and you know there's a great need for the church to really, kind of like, be brought back into the center of life and culture and society, and I think Protestants really need to embrace that instead of being afraid of that.
Speaker 2:That's my take on it and it goes back to the whole point of like no church is ran perfectly right, because we're all run by human beings and I think you know, I think all of us here can agree like that's something that the Protestant church can improve on right, and, like I said earlier, there are things I think the Catholic church can also improve on because it's obviously run by humans.
Speaker 3:I would still love to see the Catholic Church reformed to conformity with Scripture.
Speaker 1:We would think about putting some sleeper cells in the Catholic Church. And then all of a sudden you become Pope.
Speaker 3:And then you say ex-cathedra, sola scriptura.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:And then boom're all, we got all aligned, bam yeah, yeah, honestly, my thought has always been like, I think, like we're all christians, we all love jesus very much, we all believe in him and I think, like jesus doesn't want there to be this giant divide between, like I think he wants all of his children to come together and, like, love him and celebrate him and honor him together.
Speaker 3:On that note amen Jesus' prayer.
Speaker 2:John 17,. The church would be one.
Speaker 3:I would say though I have Presbyterian friends who I wouldn't—we do church differently. We have different views on baptism. Presbyterians baptize babies, we're Baptists. We baptize believers. Different view on baptism I can be one with them in heart say we belong to the Catholic church, not the Roman Catholic church, but Catholic, meaning universal church. We are brothers in Christ, yet we can't really be in the same church together because we practice baptism differently and so.
Speaker 3:I think denominations can still have different traditions and ways of practicing the faith, while still having a Catholic spirit, a, a Catholicity, a oneness.
Speaker 1:And I do think that's getting back to the different orders of the Catholic Church. It's the same thing. You wouldn't have a Franciscan worshiping at a Jesuit Sure. They could worship. They could probably do communion together, no problem, but they wouldn't be involved in the church in the same way in the leadership structure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's very interesting. I think it really is a good point and I think it's totally cool to worship differently, as long as we're worshiping the same God. I think that's the most important thing at the end of the day. I do know that there are some Catholics and I'm sure there are probably some Protestants who say this about Catholics, but I know some Catholics are like you need to be Catholic to go to heaven right, that's the official teaching.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, exactly, unless you're. Muslim. Yeah, that's where it's kind of confusing.
Speaker 2:And I don't know if I fully agree with that. But then also I don't know what the Protestant view Are they like? Do Catholics need to be Protestant to go to paradise, or is that a little bit of a different?
Speaker 1:No, it's not based on your denomination. It's based on did you place your faith in Christ alone for your salvation? And if you think you brought anything to the table, I'm not going to say you don't have to have a perfect theology to be saved, because God chose you and you're like Jesus. You saved me. And then you probably got like I always look back to in the Old Testament 1 Kings, 2 Kings.
Speaker 1:There'd be some bad or good kings who didn't take down the high places of worship that Judah was supposed to take down. They left it up there, whether it was fear of man or whether, like I'll get to that later whatever it was, they never took it down. And God said in his words that they were good kings, but they didn't do this thing. And so I think you can have some parts of your life. They're not aligned theologically. That are on the more of the minor issues, but on the primary thing did Jesus come, die on the cross for you? Is he the son of God who gave his life for you and died for your sins, rose from the dead? I think that's primary. If you get away from that, if you're saved by anything else other than Jesus, then that's the part where I don't know if you're saved.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, what the Protestant teach, the Protestant teaching about what the Catholic church is like. So we still, you know, we would confess the apostles creed. Okay, and you know the, the, the holy. Well, we talk about one church apostolic, holy Catholic. You know Nicene creed, apostles cre. One church apostolic holy Catholic, nicene Creed, apostles' Creed.
Speaker 1:We affirm all those things.
Speaker 3:Athanasian Creed. But when we say Catholic we mean universal meaning, anyone from all times and places who have called upon Jesus as their Savior, and so that would include Roman Catholics who have called upon Jesus. I would say I believe that there are people who go to a Roman Catholic church and have sincere faith in Jesus but actually disagree with Roman Catholic doctrine. That's where they go to church and that's how they met Jesus. So I would say I disagree. I think Roman Catholic doctrine is false, like saying that you're saved by your works and your faith together, or by saying Muslims and Christians worship the same God. I think that doctrine is false, but I do think someone can be in a Roman Catholic church and be saved.
Speaker 2:Does that make sense? It does make complete sense. And one thing that I think, like the whole notion of saying, okay, you have to be Catholic to like be saved, I think that there are some flaws in that argument as well, like outside of, like the fact that it's pretty extreme, but also, like not all Catholics are very consistent with their faith, like they're called cradle Catholics, where, like they only go to service, like Christmas, like all that times, right?
Speaker 2:And something that I always kind of go back and forth with on people is like does Catholic Church really say that those people are saved? Necessarily Because it's like the Catholic Church teaches, you're supposed to go to Mass every single week, right, that's like a requirement, and so I think that's kind of like a little— To maintain your salvation, exactly Because that's a dispensation of grace.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I think that's where, like, there's a little bit of like a hole in. It is like okay, if you're gonna say all catholics are going to paradise, you need to be catholic to go to paradise. Like what about those cradle catholics?
Speaker 1:like I think that there's a little bit of a hole in that, in that regard and I think, to be fair, the prior to vatican ii, it was very much like that, and I think some people didn't get the memo on vatican ii even yet, and uh, and so they kind of still believe what was taught, for, you know, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, vatican II comes, they change everything.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because before Vatican II it was outside the church. No salvation. Vatican II is where it was like actually just do your best Do your best yeah.
Speaker 1:And so there's part of it where you're like was that the Catholic Church cratering to the culture? As far as like—I'm not saying they were cratering the culture, but did they compromise to kind of like I don't know change their image?
Speaker 3:This is Catechism of the Catholic Church, article 847. This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his church. Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it, through the dictates of their conscience, those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Speaker 3:This says you don't even have to know the gospel or believe in the gospel. You don't have to personally know Jesus. All you have to do is try your best to seek God and you're saved.
Speaker 1:And if you know, like I know myself, I don't really know if I'm trying my best.
Speaker 3:Sometimes I'm like am.
Speaker 1:I trying my best. I'm not. Am I that sincere? But I know my heart, my heart's wicked, my heart will think of ways to kind of do the almost fair sequel thing. I'll look the part and then do my own thing. How can I get the most out? But if I have a relationship with one true God, now I'm interacting with him through Christ. And again, I think that's what makes it confusing, because now it's like the try your best is like what's the point of mission? What's the point of going around the globe? But because Jesus didn't say just like hey, tell everyone, try their best. He said go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you, lo, I'm with you always, even the end of the age. And Paul, I mean.
Speaker 3:Romans 10,. If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, believe in your heart. God raised him from the dead. You'll be saved. He goes. How are they going to? You know faith comes by hearing, hearing through the word of Christ. How can they hear without a preacher? And how can you know they preach unless they are sent Right? The whole point is that if people don't hear the gospel, they have no hope of being saved.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And also I look at like the story of, like the good thief on the cross, like Jesus didn't ask him hey, like what's your denomination or what's your background, like because he said like hey, like this is the son of God, jesus is like you're going to be in paradise one day. So like kind of going back to like the last question that was asked was like you know, that was asked was like where am I standing? I think that's a certain area where I think we can kind of clean up as a.
Speaker 2:Catholic church on it, because I think that there are definitely clearly some holes in that potentially All right, let's go to.
Speaker 1:I'm going to change subjects completely on you. You sent some questions in. I thought we'd go through some of these.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. I know that a key theme that we've been talking about in the church is just around giving right. So I think of all these hypotheticals and I hear all these different situations for giving right. One of the key like themes I have is like like, what is what's god's stance on certain areas? Right, so let's say like obviously I think we can all agree giving is great and god's encouraging us to do it. But my question would be like do you think god values giving a very small fraction of your income the same way he would value giving a large amount? Or what do you think God's stance is on that specifically?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this is where I think 2 Corinthians 9, 7, which we talked about each one must give what he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a true forgiver. So whenever God got excited about the widow's two mites, like she gave all she had, I think God was pleased by that. But I also think God is pleased by it when you give to the measure of faith that you've been gifted, you give the best you can, and then God's pleased by that. And so because for some people who have been selfish their whole entire life, who said I'm never going to give to the church, and then all of a sudden, maybe through the message on Sunday or they're reading the word, they're like I need to start giving and it's such a big deal for them to give anything. And they there's a dollar, dollar, right, that's a big step of faith which might then catalyze further giving.
Speaker 1:So I think it's hard to say like, is the fraction, the amount, that of, there's the fraction of someone's gift, gift the thing? Because then some, some person might give 20 just to say, hey, I gave 20. You know, like, look at me, I'm a 20 percenter. And now which one's the better one. That's what makes it super hard to figure out, and I think this is why, specifically in the New Testament, god doesn't give a percentage. He does in the Old Testament. Remember it was 10% for the Levites, 10% for national feasts, for parties, which is funny to think about giving 10% of your income for the big parties, which I love that and then 10% every three years for the poor. So you're technically supposed to be giving 23%, 23 and a third percent every year.
Speaker 1:Now granted a lot of that was also a system that also had your taxes paid by. It was the clergy, the state and the church were one. But at the same time you're still giving to that degree to God and I think that was a healthy thing. But now I think what the question is for now, what is the right spot? I always throw 10% out there as a good place to start, but at the same time, if someone gives I think I mentioned, you hear me like somebody gave $2 and that was where they were Sweet, sweet man, just just move me that he would give, be so proud of giving his $2. That to me was so powerful I was, I was, in fact I started tearing up on stage thinking about it.
Speaker 1:I think that's what can happen is that we don't, we miss out. I don't know what that guy makes. I'm sure he makes. That's not his last $2. Um, but I think it was significant for him to start giving and I think for a lot of people, just the, the, the start of like, of saying of like, looking at that I'm a manager of God's money versus I'm an owner of my money, and that just shift changed the way you view everything and then also it takes away that scarcity mentality. That's not just um. It takes away the scarcity mentality and you kind of think of terms of God has all that I need and more you want to jump on that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think. Uh, you know the widow example that you gave. The definition of generosity is not the amount given, amount of money given, but the amount of faith required to give it. He was amazed at her faith. She gave all she had, while the rich people put in large sums. So what's praised? Not the financial amount, but the amount of faith required to give it. So faith-filled giving. You brought up 2 Corinthians 9, right, Cheerful giving that comes from the heart, a decision from the heart. I think those are the major, like emphases of the New Testament. But I agree. But I agree. There's from Old Testament to New, there is a pattern of a tithe being a normal kind of number to give.
Speaker 1:Yeah, If you're looking for a percent, Right If you're looking for, like you know, because it's kind of like.
Speaker 3:It's like a just fair amount. You know, even before the tithe is instituted there's a tithe, yeah, you have like. Abraham paying a tithe to Melchizedek. You have Abraham paying a tithe to Melchizedek, where it's like this is the right thing to do, to offer this tithe before it was even a law. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. And I guess, kind of like an additional question that I would have on top of that is, let's say, like we're obviously talking about giving financially and obviously I think that there are multiple ways to give and I think giving financially we're all called to do. But let's say somebody hypothetically loses their job. They're basically like Job and they just lose a bunch. Do you guys think that God calls us to continue giving that same percentage, or do you think it kind of goes back to the whole point of giving anything?
Speaker 1:It's percentage of what.
Speaker 2:Percentage of your income.
Speaker 1:technically, so then, if you have no income, what's your percentage?
Speaker 2:zero, right, yeah, then yeah, so like god, just when I and I guess like my thought process would be like you give in different ways, just aside financially right sure, sure, sure.
Speaker 1:But I do think financial, like at that, that point, let's say, if you're a need, then the church gives to you. Yeah, right like that, that becomes like, which is why we have a strong benevolence program here. That and the catholic church, they have a great one, like you know, like that's where you want to be able to give generously to people that are in need, because without that then you're like that's the whole point of the church.
Speaker 2:That makes sense. Another question I have about giving, and this is something that I kind of go back and forth on. Obviously, god's calling all of us to. Yeah, there are some churches that are in hot water, right. Obviously, a lot of Catholic churches are in hot water, a lot of scandals in the Catholic church too.
Speaker 1:All across every. It doesn't have to be religion. You've got a scandal. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Do you think God calls us to give to churches that are in scandals and in hot water?
Speaker 2:Oh man hot water oh man, or like, does the bible say much about that specifically? Obviously there's story of jesus like destroying the temple because you know it's become more of a business rather than a place to worship god. But, like, if a church is in like hot water and they're just like known for not doing things the way god wants it to, obviously we're called to like give to churches and stuff, so would just be interesting to see, like like your guys' thoughts and perspectives on that.
Speaker 1:What do you think about that?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So if it's a true church, let's say it's a true church which, okay, the reformers would define the true church in this way Right preaching the gospel, right administration of the sacraments and right practice of church discipline, then you can have a church where it falls into a public scandal because of the sins of the leaders. But the scriptures give you instructions on how to handle sin of leaders. You know, 1 Timothy will talk about how to rebuke elders who are in sin publicly. Matthew 18 talks about how to approach someone about their sin to bring them before the church. There's instructions to where a church can handle a scandal well, if they follow the scriptures and you can still give to your church knowing that, hey, you have leaders who have sinned and they need to be disciplined and removed from ministry. But then hire a new pastor, you know, and be ready to, you know, kind of move forward as a church with a new pastor.
Speaker 3:The church doesn't have to die because of the sins of a leader, but oftentimes they do, which is, you know, really sad. The leader falls and obviously it's very devastating and sometimes churches aren't equipped to handle that well or the damage is just too much and you just got to shut the whole thing down. But I don't think you have to. I think you can still say, hey, we've got this pastor who sinned, but we have these other five elders who are walking the church through, handling this well, and we can still give to the ministry of this church, trusting that God's going to bring us through this. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:It does make sense and I totally see what you mean and I think it's more so kind of, like you said, like looking at the elders that are associated with the church as well. So, and you guys might know so, the way it works in the Catholic church is when you donate, a lot of the money that you donate goes to what's called the archdiocese.
Speaker 2:So basically like you have your church that's in a city and then there's an archdiocese that oversees all the churches within that city. Right, some archdioceses. They'll spread that money evenly throughout all the other churches, and I think that's something that, personally, I think is great, because you're not putting all of your money towards one church and other churches.
Speaker 3:You're kind of being left hungry because as you might see— Some denominations function the same way.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I think that's great. I absolutely love that. So, like that's what, that's why I do find it kind of interesting.
Speaker 1:I know that there are some other churches where they're in hot water and it's like are you supposed to give to like those churches where it's like you know they might not be? Doing things right, but it's always you want to. You want to, I mean, you want to be a good wouldn't, and if there's no hope of it changing then you should leave that church and give your money to a church that's healthy and right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. But I would say, let's say you're at a church and corruption was found and they're addressing it, then don't leave and don't give up on it, because they're doing.
Speaker 2:They're trying to resolve that problem Exactly.
Speaker 1:It's not like in the New Testament. You've got Ananias and Sapphira. They have some giving issues. They want some credit for some giving they didn't actually give and then the Holy Spirit killed them. So you have money issues in the early church. You have money issues today because money, it's the root of all kinds of evil. It just truly that greed.
Speaker 3:Love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Right, right.
Speaker 1:So the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil.
Speaker 1:And so I think that that's what happens when you get focused on money you can get sucked down that hole real quick. But yeah, I think that there you probably only know about it if that church is addressing it, unless you're going through churches' books, which is, you know that'd be cool. And then you're a true good steward and you've researched your church and you know where all the money is going. That's good. We have several finance committees that are going through. We have one finance committee, several people on the finance committee that just meticulously go through everything we spend, which I'm so grateful for. But, to your point, this is one of the things why this is my own personal thing of having church plants that are campuses as opposed to its own individual church, so you can do exactly what you just talked about If there's one heavily resourced church, you can give it to another church and help redistribute wealth, especially if that church is in an impoverished part of the city, and that makes it super challenging, and I think that's one of the things that I've always been moved by on how the Catholic church does it, because it feels like every church is well-funded, and I think if there was a problem in the Protestant movement is that we can be like one of those rich ISDs that don't share money, and now your school is the best school, with all the best teachers and all the best things, and so I think there's a potential to do that, which is why I feel like church planning is the hope of the world, by sending your best people out, although continuing to fund it, I think, is the thing that I think would be super helpful when you have different expressions of the church all over the place, for that very reason, where you could make sure that everyone was taken care of that on the staffs, staffs, staffs, staffs of those churches, and then the ministries of those churches would be like, um, uh, equally represented.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I honestly, one thing I really do like about this church specifically is, like you can definitely tell like the money's going towards the right direction, like obviously, like we're planting a new church, like I think that's like a great way to spend money. It's not like you know these lavish lifestyles. It seems like we're putting it more towards God and I think that's what God's obviously calling all of us to do with the money that we receive. It's like reinvesting in the church and that's how you grow his kingdom. It's kind of like a business the most successful businesses, pretty much, are investing themselves. They make money, they keep investing in it, they keep growing and growing. Exactly that's kind investing in it and it keeps growing and growing.
Speaker 1:Like, exactly Like that's like the way kind of like the way churches can work, like you obviously get into it, so that's really good.
Speaker 2:I really like that.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, Keep going. I love these questions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. Um, I guess, like another question that I have too is like, like I said earlier, I think that like god is actually calling everybody to give financially, or like if somebody, let's say somebody is like they're running a bible study, right, they're like doing homeless food runs or something, right, they do all these things, but one thing that they don't do is they don't give financially. Do you think that is fulfilling full righteousness of actually giving enough to the church?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great question. I think each person is different. If the person was really struggling, had no income, then no.
Speaker 1:But if they're making money, then give to the church. I know that's. But if they're making money, then give to the church. I know that's. And because, like that, what that shows is what you're trying to model for people is you trust god, all right, but then more importantly is that what you're revealing to yourself is that there's no scarcity.
Speaker 1:And I think the problem that we have, especially for young adults young adults adults I always get this ask can I just donate my time? You know, I give uh, 2.4 hours a day, uh, to the church, and then I'm like 2.4 hours a day. When you think about that, we're talking what? Uh, you know, you're almost talking about a serious part-time job of like 17 hours a week, right, no one's doing that. All right, okay, few people are doing that. Sure, sure, all right. So what does that mean, right? So I think it's like now we're getting into. Is it an either or I? Just when someone says I tithe my time, I usually go. That person probably has a heart problem of materialism that they don't want to give up. Usually I can't say that for sure because up. Usually I can't say that for sure, because each one must give what he's decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves to cheerful give.
Speaker 3:I think Holland you've dealt with this a bunch. Yeah, yeah, I did young adult ministry here for years and that was a constant conversation that came up was I tithe my time? And it was like that's a good thing to do. It's not a substitute for financial giving. Galatians 6 says let the one who has taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. And there's a principle that Paul brings up in multiple times in Corinthians that if you are receiving spiritual things, it's right and good to bless with material things that you are receiving teaching from others, to bless those that you're receiving teaching from, referring specifically to those who have a pastoral authority over you, that you are in covenant relationship with the membership of a church, that they teach you and you support them. And so giving of your financial resources to support the livelihood of the pastors and teachers of your local church is a right, good, biblical thing that I would encourage everyone to do.
Speaker 3:Whether you tithe your time or not, it's really saying yes, you should tithe your time. Yes, you should serve your church. You should tithe your time. Yes, you should serve your church. Um, you should tithe your money. Yes, you should support your church and its leaders and ministries. Um and uh, it's, it's a. It's a good thing that God says when you trust him in that he's going to bless you Like you don't have to worry that you're not going to have enough. That was the thing with so many young adults. Is like man, if I give that, I'm not going to have enough, even though God promises, if you seek first his kingdom, he's going to give you everything you need.
Speaker 2:He's a good father, so a lot of what we're talking about right now is giving financially.
Speaker 3:And I think that's great.
Speaker 2:I think it makes a lot of sense and I think Catholics, christians, we can all agree on that right, yep, yep. When I think of giving right, I'm thinking of giving financially. Yep, I'm giving. I'm thinking of giving with like time and service Yep. What are some other ways that we can give as Christians?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you mentioned prayer, right. I think giving yourself, like going on mission, whether that's to the homeless, like a ministry of presence, is a big deal, but then also ministry to the saints. So when you and this all comes into time right, because it's either money or time I don't think there's anything else beyond that.
Speaker 3:A lot of times people say time, talent and treasure, and so talent, meaning your skills and gifts and abilities, you may have so like. We have some women in our church who are amazing cooks, have so like. We have some women in our church who are amazing cooks, and so I'm also the lead pastor of Eastside Community Church, a Wells Branch church plant, and so I'm here a couple days a week, also lead pastor of Eastside. And so at Eastside we have a couple of women who they will love to cook tacos for our outreaches that we do, and that's a blessing. They offer something that you know they'll cook a hundred tacos that we get to hand out to people at the laundromat once a month when we do our laundry outreach. And that's offering. That is time, and treasure is finances and time, but it's also a skill that they have. We, you know. So people who have skills of different trades cooking, sewing, people who have mechanic knowledge, people who have tech, av knowledge Does that make sense it?
Speaker 2:does, and I like all those different topics. You know, as a man, there are some things I wish I would be able to give. I wish I could give to the music ministry. Spoiler alert I'm not good at singing, so I'm not that's one like area I unfortunately can't give in, but like I totally get what you mean, like there's so many different ways that like we can give and I think that's yeah, we're really the band up here?
Speaker 1:there's only one, that's one. Only one that's paid is cody and uh, but everyone else is just giving offering their talent. Yeah, and that's a beautiful thing, and so if you ever see somebody not up there, you're like, like huh, we need to start recruiting for that position.
Speaker 2:Let's go.
Speaker 1:Right, you know, so that becomes a big deal. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what else? No, this is so good man. Yeah, no, I definitely agree. I mean obviously like and I think too that there are so many different ways that, like, we can try to get creative and give. Like church, I'm going to start trying to give to the deaf ministry and start interpreting now.
Speaker 1:I'm super excited, bro. Both his parents are deaf.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, yeah. Both my parents are deaf, so fully fluent in sign language. Actually, it was funny. Once I first came to church, some of the first people I got to meet were deaf people, and so we were communicating and they told me they were like we have no male interpreters here.
Speaker 1:I think they were saying and I should totally change. Let's go.
Speaker 2:I did the kids ministry last week and I'm like you know what, maybe every other weekend I'll start doing some deaf ministry. So I'm like you know what, hey, it's cool that I can give to the deaf ministry. Unfortunately, I can't give to the music ministry because I'm not good at the guitar or singing or anything like that.
Speaker 1:Well, deaf ministry. So just so you know, almost 90% of deaf people are unreached, right? Isn't that like some crazy stat like that?
Speaker 3:I don't know, they don't know Jesus. I've heard something like that before. I don't know the exact number.
Speaker 1:It's one of the most unreached populations in our culture, as far as they haven't heard the good news because no one's been sent to them, because for the most part, it's a ministry that no one knows. It's like if you don't know how to play the guitar, you can't be in the band. Well, anybody here know how to speak sign language. Well, it just so happens. At our church we have three people that spoke sign language and they're like we want to do this for the church, for the ministry, so they volunteer their time to sign. And now we have a fledgling deaf ministry where 10 people are involved with but it'd be sweet for you to come because there's a young, fit dude signing. Everyone's going to be like I don't know what he's saying, but I'm going to go listen to him. I think that's a powerful thing.
Speaker 1:And so I think, leaning into that, I'm like the he's saying, but I'm going to listen to him. You know, I think that's a powerful thing and so I think, leaning into that, I'm like the Lord's leading for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm super thankful. And the 90% stat I didn't know that was the exact stat, but I believe it. A lot of deaf people I know unfortunately don't have a strong relationship with Jesus and I think that's one of the coolest things I think about my parents specifically is like their love for jesus is like it's on fire, right, and despite the fact they're deaf and they really haven't had many people like in their lives, that like can communicate with them, that share the love for jesus, like just the fact that like they're so like loving and passionate about, like their faith is, I think, like such a really great blessing and I think, too, like just having that like allows for such curiosity and really great conversation.
Speaker 1:I just looked at the stat 98 of the day is as unreached man. Only 2% of deaf people are Christians.
Speaker 2:I think it was about a year ago I went to Gallaudet university, which is a deaf college in Washington DC, and I didn't see any like churches on the campus or like anywhere near the campus. Like wow, they're just. There's really no environment around. I remember, like I used to fun fact about myself I used to play baseball back when I was in high school and there was a deaf guy on our team and I played center field and so every time like the pitcher would come out to like talk to him, I would come sprinting in from center field to like interpret for him on the mound. But anyways, like this guy was a good friend of mine and like I used to tell him like how's your relationship with Jesus? And he's like I don't believe in Jesus, like I just was never raised and his entire friend group, like his family, all like deaf people, they don't have a relationship with Jesus. And I find it so interesting that there's really no like reason, like I don't understand, like why they choose not to have that Well.
Speaker 1:I mean, if you think about it you love about our church is we're so welcoming? That's because we know how to talk to you. We're not unfunctional humans. But when it comes to a deaf person, you feel like I'm going to say it wrong.
Speaker 2:I'm just like that's about all I got. Hey, that was good. Good morning, I saw that.
Speaker 1:You know, that's about all I got, and I think when someone like you is there, that's a game changer, because now it's like you've opened up their eyes to like oh God is here for me, because my people are here yeah exactly. So I feel you know if I yeah, that's something to give that is huge. That's a great point.
Speaker 3:That's such a great example to bring up is saying like, yeah, we give financially, give our time and serving and serving, but also, like you have a talent, a skill, something that you know how to do that most people don't know how to do, that can really bless people and introduce them to Christ. It's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, super, it's pretty awesome. I'm super thankful for that.
Speaker 1:I'm going to put the deaf ministry in touch with you so that they know to hound you about it. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I did the kids ministry last weekend. That was a lot, so now I'm like all right, the deaf ministry. I don't think it's going to cause as much like. Oh my gosh like wowness to me but I'm definitely ready for it, really excited about it so it'll be a lot of fun, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome, okay, what else? What's your next question? I'm loving the questions here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. So. A question I have too, too, is about having your soul fully cleansed, right? Yeah, yeah. So with the Catholic Church, what we believe in is you commit a sin, you go to confession, and then the priest will give you an act of repentance. Right, it might be we need you to say a full rosary, we might need you to say three Hail Marys whatever it might be right, act of contrition. Act of contrition exactly, and of the patrician, exactly. And then, once you do that, your soul is completely cleansed. When it comes to the Protestant faith, do they have, like, obviously, you confess your sin to somebody. Is there any more after that, or is your soul considered cleansed after that? Do you want to talk about that a little bit?
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you want to jump on it first?
Speaker 3:First, john 1.9,. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So we would say that our cleansing comes from Jesus when we confess to him. And there's also James 5.16, confess your sins to one another and pray for each other that you may be healed. There is a healing that comes through confession to others.
Speaker 3:Now we would take, though, to one the Catholics would take the confess your sins to one another and apply that to confession to a priest. We would take it to confess your sins to one another, other brothers in the faith, not necessarily a, you know, a formal officer of a church. Strictly, you know, it doesn't just have to be a pastor or something, but you can just confess to your brothers in the faith and pray for each other, and God heals you through that. And so we would still agree, though, though, that repentance must follow confession. Confession is here's what I've done wrong. You're bringing that out of the darkness into the light. Repentance is actually turning away from that thing, and so confession and repentance go together. But yeah, whereas in Catholics, like you're saying, a priest will give you a specific, what did you say? Like three Hail Marys.
Speaker 2:Say a rosary, say a rosary say three Hail Marys, and once you do that, then your sins are fully forgiven and your soul is cleansed we don't have an equivalent to that.
Speaker 3:It's more of the. You need to repent from this and walk in, holiness and I think the reason why it's that specific.
Speaker 1:so, like what we do, you need to repent from this and walk in holiness. Yeah, and I think the reason why it's that specific, so like what we do. And now I'm moving from Scripture, which is 1 John 1, 9, James 5, 16. If we confess our sin, God is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That's 1 John 1, 9. And then the James 5, 16, confess your sins one to another and pray for each other that you may be healed. So you move from those scriptural things. But then what Christians do is like hey, I need you to ask me about this.
Speaker 1:This is the one part I feel like evangelical churches for the most part. I'm not going to blanket it, but this is the part we've done well in of stealing from the Catholic church. Hey, we need to confess to somebody. It doesn't have to be a priest, it has to be somebody, but then that person needs to come after me and hold me accountable. Hey, so you've been struggling with lust. How's that going? Like that's the difference of like it's a pursuit of holiness amongst the community of faith that I think you see from a. Again, I don't want to blanket it on any direction, but that's what my hope is that we have this connection with one another where you are so real, and so I give the questions that I need to be asked to my accountability partner, so he's leaning into that. Are you disciplining your children in anger? Are you honoring your wife? Are you prioritizing her? Have you led your family well, Like those questions which you know who thinks about that?
Speaker 3:But you can see like if there's ever frustration in the home, it's probably because I'm not leading, or I'm disciplined of anger, or I'm frustrated and I'm not leading gracefully well Does that make sense, and I think that's where having someone to ask me questions like that allows me to confess repent and move forward, and to encourage you in repentance, to preach the gospel to you, to remind you of your forgiveness in Christ and your status as a child of God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I think what the problem with saying a Hail Mary and a rosary is. It then makes the solution, or the absolution, if you will not connected to the actual sin. So I lust, I go say a rosary. Those two things are disconnected. I lust, and now in the Christian world I'm supposed to walk in holiness, and when I get to that temptation again, I told you that the next time I reach that point I'm going to call you. And now I'm like oh crud, I'm at the I don't know. I'm at the gym, I saw the girl and now I need to call whoever so I can have them pray over me.
Speaker 1:Like that's again. That's prescriptive. That's not in Scripture, but I think that's the tradition that we've been following. That, for the most part, allows for the wholeness of the repentance to be fulfilled, as opposed to a. I told the priest, I said the prayer. Now I can do what I want.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So in terms like, say, I confess a sin, to like my pastor or just like a friend, and then it's like taking some steps and courses of action to like, really like, show your full repentance and be cleansed, I guess my question would be then how do you know when your soul is fully cleansed or you've fully moved on from those sins? Is it just you don't do it again, or is it something a little bit different you think?
Speaker 1:1 John 1.8,. The verse before 1 John 1.9 says if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. There's never going to be a point where you're a sinless person, never. So I think that's the part when you understand that John was writing to believers saying don't be self-deceived. You've got to confess your sins to God. All right, so like that's a huge part of it. Also, whenever you become a Christian, you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and so you are now a child of God. Jesus is saying like you like. Whenever God looks at you, he sees his son because the blood that was covered by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So now you are a new creation in Christ. The old is gone, the new has come. You are seen as Jesus before God.
Speaker 1:So there isn't necessarily a cleansing that needs to happen beyond what Jesus did for you on the cross, however, walking in holiness. You were created in Christ Jesus to do good works. So therefore, sin should not be the pattern of your life, and so you've got to crucify the flesh. But, as Paul wrote in Romans 7, I don't understand what I do, for I want to do, I do not do, but what I hate that I keep on doing, et cetera, et cetera. Who will save me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, christ Jesus, our Lord. And then Romans 8.1,. Therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And so what does that mean? That means that your soul is cleansed before God the moment you receive Jesus. And then the maintenance, the maintenance on your soul.
Speaker 3:Sanctification.
Speaker 1:The sanctification right of like, becoming more like Jesus over time is going to happen through continual confession and repentance, not so that you could become holy, but to live up to the holiness as God sees you as.
Speaker 2:Does that make sense? It does. And I guess, like, how do you think we know, like, how do we know, like, what the holiness that God sees us is? Like, like, what, like, how is?
Speaker 1:it Like. What should we be striving for? So John 17, 23,. Jesus says this I pray for those who will believe in me because of these disciples that were with them. I pray that you, father, love them, love you. This is where we write our name in the Bible. Love Robbie Holland, chris, even as equal to the way you love me. So we know that we are loved by the Father, equal to the way he loves Jesus, because of what Jesus did for us on the cross, which is why we sing songs about the crucifixion nothing but the blood of Jesus. The reason why we're so into that is because that's what makes us acceptable, not because of the work I've done, but because of the work Jesus has done.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what it means to be in Christ. When the New Testament talks about being in Christ is we are united so that the same status that we have we have the same status as Jesus, as we are God's sons with blameless before him, because the imputed righteousness of Jesus, that we stand not condemned. We stand forgiven, loved, justified, holy, blameless. And so the cleansing that we talk about as Protestants, what we call sanctification, becoming more and more like Jesus we're already like Jesus positionally. We are in the same position as Jesus spiritually. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm just trying to envision, like when we say we're in the same position as Jesus could you expand upon that a little bit more?
Speaker 3:When God looks at a Christian, he sees the righteousness of Christ, and so you have the position of being justified, blameless. You are no longer in the position of being condemned in the domain of darkness. You have now legally been justified. You are in the position of son of God, child of God. So, as a child of God, you are blameless positionally. And yet, in the way that you live your life, we know that we still sin and stumble, and so this is where we're trying to become actually more and more like Jesus. We're trying to move toward the position that we already have, and that's the Spirit's work. That's the Spirit's work in us who sanctifies us. From one degree of glory to the next, we're transformed by the renewal of our mind. Jesus said you know thy word is truth. Sanctify them in your truth. So what it looks like to grow in holiness is to be more and more in conformity with the truth of God's word, with aligning our lives to his law while believing in the promises of the gospel.
Speaker 2:Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we yeah, that's the cleansing that we talk about as Protestants is being sanctified in the truth of God's word, by the spirit of God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and also, too, I think one of my favorite things about the Holy Spirit is like the Holy Spirit will communicate to you in ways where you're just like whoa, like I didn't have that perspective before, like I remember ways we were just like whoa, like I didn't have that perspective before, like I remember, yeah, um, a sin I was struggling with that I didn't even realize for a long time was like I was listening to a podcast and this podcaster his name is jason whitlock, former sports guy he's like you know, a sin I struggle with is gluttony.
Speaker 2:And he starts talking. I'm like you know, I feel like that's something I struggle with. I don't even really like think about it. Like, like, I feel like that to me, like, hey, you shouldn't be snacking when you're not hungry, right, that's a sin that you're struggling with. And then, obviously as a Catholic for me, I'm going to a priest and I'm saying, hey, I'm struggling with this, and then they may say X, y or Z, do this, and that's how you're going to clear your soul. But obviously it's a little with the Protestant faith.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, man, I really appreciate you coming on the show today.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We're going to have to bring you back for more questions with Robbie. This has been awesome, hey, and if there is anything that you guys want to ask Robbie in the future, just text us at 737-231-0605. We would love to hear from you. Go to PastorPleckcom, drop a line with us there. But go to pastorplekcom, drop a line with us there. But, man, this has been informative. It's been encouraging. I'm so grateful you're at our church, so grateful you're gonna be serving with our deaf ministry deaf team. Make sure that you get ahold of him. And Holland, thanks so much for joining us. You're about to head on sabbatical, that's right, so you're not going to see Holland for like a full month, all of.
Speaker 3:July. After this afternoon.
Speaker 1:And so, hey, thanks so much for watching From our house to yours. Have an awesome week of worship.