Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Faith vs Works: Unraveling the Biblical Tension
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361: When "Machine Gun Nick" Drummond drops his militant moniker, it signals a profound shift in his approach to life. Once quick to embrace violence as a first response, Nick now considers it "the very last option, and only if extremely applicable." What caused this transformation? This raw, honest conversation between Pastor Plek and former soldier Nick Drummond explores the mysterious alchemy that occurs when genuine faith replaces white-knuckled willpower.
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and welcome back to pastor plex podcast. I am your host, pastor plec. Joining me today is none other than nick drummond, back from the past. How are you, nick? I'm doing pretty good yourself. I'm doing well. We, I've noticed recently you've gone without the moniker machine gun, nick. Yes, can you please tell us a little bit about that?
Speaker 2:well you know, as that past goes, I think that it actions and and, uh, things that would happen weren't weren't very godly, you know. Yeah, so we're just kind of changing the way we're approaching life. Maybe not as violence is the very last option, okay, that's good, and only if, like, extremely applicable. If we can't, you know, get away first, okay, instead of you know the moniker, machine Gun, nick, where violence was always, you know meh Might have been up there as number one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it might. You know, moniker, machine gun nick, where violence was always. You know, meh might have been up there as number one. Yeah, it might. It might, you know, depending on what the situation, we might have went straight to it. And you know I can violence better than you, okay, yeah, but we don't want to do that.
Speaker 1:That's good. That's good. So how has like sanctification for you over the past year? What does that look like?
Speaker 2:it's a rough road. Um, well, I don't drink nearly as much as I used to like almost zero, that's good. Uh, this the cursing, though it happens sometimes is cut back drastically. Um, and you know the smoking problem, that vice. I'm not gonna say it's gone, but it's not near as what it used to. So what do you attribute that to?
Speaker 1:because this is a. This is one of the things I think people want to change and they're like committed to changing. They're they're convinced that changing is the best thing. But what, for you, was the thing that got all those things to come together?
Speaker 2:yeah, that it's got to be. J I might have wanted to quit smoking. I never thought I was ever going to have conversations without dropping the F-bomb at least 10 times and drinking. I was like, well, I'm Scottish, that's what we do, right, and it was never like I'm going to quit drinking. For me, I was like, you know, it's only a little bit. It wasn't like I was, you know, pounding a fifth a night or anything. I've had those, those experiences, but it wasn't, you know. So it wasn't bad, right, right, and you just you go throughout this searching for god and you find that those vices aren't needed. Huh, so would you?
Speaker 1:find yourself just more in the presence of the Lord, or would you? Because whenever I hear that, I usually, when I think about your life and I think of, I just think of like you know how, like you, have you ever done a lot of cooking and then you've had like a skillet, just have crud all stuck on it and the only way you can get out you can either A work real hard with like a steel wool or something or you just let soak in some Dawn for a while and usually the soaking in Dawn is all it needs. It just takes a little bit of while and then it just slides right off. So it seems like the more you've soaked in the Holy Spirit, the more you've gotten experience around Jesus, the more that his goodness has, like, made the crud stick less. Is that fair? Yeah, yeah, that's good, all right. Well, it's exciting to hear that and I think that's just it's inspirational for people that are really sort of struggling out there and not knowing kind of their next step in their life, not sure which road to take.
Speaker 1:Now we did have a question come in and I'm going to read it to you from the Pastor Plek line of questions if you will, and it goes like this I'm wrestling with reconciling the idea of, by faith alone, sola fide, from the five solas of the Reformation in light of James 2, 20 through 20, 26. How does that fit in with the rest of Scripture that supports the idea of sola fide, like Ephesians 2, 8 through 10? Well, let's just go real quick and let's see if we can read first James 2, 20 through 26. I'm going to read it to you and then I want you to give me your first thought on these scriptures. So let me pull up.
Speaker 2:We're going with a knee-jerk reaction, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I would love to hear your first reaction because I think I could probably bring to bear any correction needs. All right, here it is. James 2, 20 through 26 says but would you like evident? Oh, hold on, sorry, would you like get the ESV?
Speaker 1:But someone will say you have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one you do well, even the demons believe and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham, our father, justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works and the scripture was fulfilled. That says Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, it was not also Rahab, the prostitute, justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith from apart from works is dead.
Speaker 1:Okay, so register all that. And now I'm going to read you Ephesians 2, 8 through 10, which is kind of a way different, wild way of thinking. All right, for by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing. It is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast, for we are his workmanship, creating Christ Jesus, for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. So the question asks like how do I reconcile these two things? It feels like James and Paul are arguing against each other as opposed to the same point.
Speaker 2:Oh, I definitely agree on that right now, like and so. So, like I want to go chronological order. Well, james has got to be because he's closer to the, to the Jesus, right? Yeah, so maybe he knows he knows a little bit more than Paul on this one. You know, that's that's how I'm, my brain is, is is looking at this. But yeah, like, because the non-denominational church, we believe that grace alone will suffice. Now my Catholic roots go. Hey, you got to have grace and works, right, so like, that's kind of confusing.
Speaker 1:Right, so I love. So, yeah, it is, it's difficult. So the question is is how can it possibly be both? And with Scripture, you don't pit them against one another, because that doesn't work. You don't fight. Heaven isn't having a war of words. And if it's all inspired, if this is a canonized gospel, how do, sorry? Canonized Word of God, and every Word of God is equally important. How do, or sorry, canonize word of God, and every word of God is equally important. How do you, how do you resolve this conflict? All right, so you want to harmonize the passages, and so here's what I would say Faith is the root, works is the fruit is the root, works is the fruit.
Speaker 2:So I was kind of thinking about that in my mind, as if you're walking with the Lord and you are trying to be more like Jesus, works are just going to automatically happen, right. But it's not going to be under the pretense of if I do this nice thing, I'm going to get something out of it.
Speaker 1:Right, it's because I've been saved, I do this good thing, yeah. So I think Ephesians established that faith is a sole means by which we receive God's grace for salvation. And then James clarifies that true faith is not merely an intellectual assent, but a living trust in God that transforms a person's life, leading to good works. Works are not the cause of salvation but the evidence of it. Because he says in James 2, do you want me to show you, do you want the evidence, that faith without works is dead? So he says let me see if I can pull it up. Yeah, do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? And then he goes to Abraham.
Speaker 1:Well, we all know from Abraham has two parts of his story In Genesis. Let's see if I can find, okay. So Genesis 15 is where Abraham believes God and it's credited to him as righteousness. In Genesis 22 is where God says take your son, your only son, isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall show you. So the very fact that he obeys God comes back. You know which one comes first? Well, genesis 15 comes first. Where he was, abraham believed God and he was credited with righteousness. So they both show faith, right, his ability to act on what God would have him do, because he believed that somehow God could raise him from the dead. That's what we know from Hebrews that the reason why he went and took his son is he knew that God would somehow raise him from the dead. That's what we know from Hebrews that the reason why he went and took his son is he knew that God would somehow raise him from the dead. That's how much trust he had in God to go and obey him and sacrifice him if he needed to.
Speaker 1:Okay, so then you also have Rahab, who's mentioned. Right, rahab is a prostitute, but she says the fear of God has come all over us. So she believes that Yahweh, the God of Israel, is going to destroy Jericho, and so therefore, she says I'm on your team. Don't forget about me, scarlet thread. I'm on the team when you guys come to attack this thing, we will be ready right here. And so she was spared because she acted based on belief. Now, here's what I'm going to tell you you cannot act unless you believe you can't. So for let's, even if someone puts a gun to your head and says don't smoke, well, you believe that they're going to pull the trigger, so you are not going to put the cigarette to your lips. That is an action based on belief. You cannot. Uh, action does not precede belief.
Speaker 2:That's the kind of thing where you're not looking at me. I'll get one over, or I might just light one up in front of you with the gun in my face and be like do it yeah. This is hilarious.
Speaker 1:If you do that, you don't really believe I'm going to shoot you, though.
Speaker 2:Or I don't care.
Speaker 1:Alright.
Speaker 2:Which is a dumb thing to die on.
Speaker 1:But I mean, I guess people have died for dumber things. But I guess that's the point. If you have faith in Jesus that he has saved you, then you're going to act in accordance with that. If you don't care, you're going to do whatever. Right at some point in Jesus that he has saved you, then you're going to act in accordance with that. If you don't care, you're going to do whatever At some point. You can't truly believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and rose from the dead and have no existential crisis of understanding the depths of your sorrow and sickness and then just do whatever. I agree with that.
Speaker 1:But this is where the reason why James becomes so powerful. He says it is possible to be a hearer of the word and not a doer of the word, because clearly there are hypocrites all over the place, and so what they're reflecting is they are a Christian in doctrine and atheist in practice, and I think that's what James is getting at. Don't talk to me about your faith. That has no action, because that seems worthless to me. But you can't even have a faith to begin with unless God gives it to you. In fact, even James says receive the word with meekness, the word that is implanted in you. So who's doing the planting? It's not like you're planting yourself, it's God is planting the word in you of what you are to receive with meekness.
Speaker 2:It kind of goes back to the white knuckling right. Yeah, like I can white knuckle stuff all day long. But how long are you going to be able to white knuckle it until you crack Right or have a fall, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I totally agree. I think that's where this tension of faith and works. It should be one that we should be examining. In fact, paul, the writer of Ephesians, also says in 2 Corinthians 13, we should examine ourselves to see if we are really in the faith. So take a look, and when you look at yourself and go, has my life changed? Do I believe that Jesus died on the cross for me? Was there an existential crisis of some sort where ontologically I was like I am a mess unless God, who made me, created me, unless he saves me? That's the reality that most people in general, nobody's thinking like that.
Speaker 1:But you're forced to think like that with Paul's press for you to examine yourself to see if you are truly in the faith. And how would you know if you're truly in the faith? You would look at your actions and go because I believe this. I have done that. But we all know even Jesus said your actions don't define your salvation right. So you've got Jesus, who harps on people's actions without faith. Paul, who harps on your faith being before any action, and then James who says make sure you got the actions to meet up with your faith and what Jesus says, like there may be.
Speaker 1:Many of you say Lord, lord, didn't I prophesy in your name? Didn't we do miracles in your name? He'd say depart from me. I never knew you. So doing amazing works, like really healing, helping, doing great things for people, does not save you.
Speaker 1:And this becomes like here's where, if you were to look at conservative and liberal theology, liberal theology is like we need to do some stuff, we need to show our faith by what we do.
Speaker 1:And I'm like, if you do that and you don't actually believe, you are creating hell on earth, because it's a bad counterfeit of what heaven is like Meaning what you're trying to do is bring kingdom without the king. In other words, I want everyone to get along, I want everyone to be reconciled, I want there to be no poverty, but the reality is, if you're not focused on the king, they're still poor. If you're doing miracles in Jesus' name but you don't have faith that Jesus is the Lord, and then all of a sudden, all your miracles in his name are not a testament to Jesus, they're a testament to someone else Yourself, yourself or maybe even Satan that you could say I'm doing this in Jesus' name, but the reality is you're doing it for your own fame, and that pride reveals that you're doing it for your father, the devil. So there you go. I think this is something that every Christian should wrestle with, but ultimately you have to go to first cause. Do you believe something because you do it, or do you do something because you believe it?
Speaker 2:I ouch, yeah, because before I came to christ I would have done something right, but it might not have been like, oh, look at me, look at me. But I would thought, yeah, I did this great thing that takes away. You know, maybe one or two of the things I just did that were really bad that week, you know I was raised a catholic like there's a lot of guilt. Week, you know I was raised a Catholic Like there's a lot of guilt in there. You know, right, right, right.
Speaker 1:Right, and I think that is. I think people genuinely want to follow God and they're like when they have the tension of when they look at somebody whose life is all about the doing, like most liberal people are going to probably quote James 1, 27,. Religion that's pure and undefiled is this to visit widows and orphans in their distress. However, there's a second part of that that usually gets left out and to keep oneself unstained from the world. So don't let the world's views of sin, righteousness and judgment affect your view of a holy God and who he has called you to be.
Speaker 1:And so looking after widows and orphans, I think is important. It's close to God's heart, and I think we should be definitely taking care of those who are marginalized, but not at the expense of becoming stained by the world and saying we're just going to love you, to kind of give a blank check, to do whatever you want to do, because then you're now doing the very same thing that James is accusing people of, of saying I believe in God but I'm living however I want, and so that clearly can't be what James is meaning he's talking. I mean, in fact, he's the one that's talking about like what causes quarrels and dissensions among you in chapter four. Isn't it anger, strife, sensuality? Isn't that driving your soul and not the things of God? And I think that's where a lot of people find themselves is that it's the sensuous, the anger, the jealousy, the striving that happens, that creates a lot of conflict.
Speaker 2:Well, no, I mean, that's like saying, hey, I do all this good stuff and but these things, you know, like some of the stuff we have going on today mutilation of your body you know you feel like you should be a canine instead of a human right and just going along with that. You know that doesn't really apply with the Bible's teachings.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And even though you might perceive that you do good acts, you're not living the life or holding people accountable by the word of the Lord, and that definitely can doom one's existence. I'd say.
Speaker 1:For sure, but I do want people to understand that there is a real reality of feeling like your work is insufficient. I feel like, pastorally, I want to help people see that their faith or their works probably are insufficient, which is fine, because we point back to Christ's finished work on the cross. Anytime you point to yourself, you're always going to be lacking and so you don't boast. That's why you shouldn't have, you know, self-esteem. You need christ's team. You don't boast in your strengths and your accomplishments.
Speaker 2:You boast in your weaknesses and how christ more than made up for, uh, your weaknesses with his finished work on the cross well, that kind of ties into, you know, when I got out of the army, because I honestly would have sat down you know been in combat so many times but I would have looked you in the eyes and said I never did enough.
Speaker 1:Right, oh, I feel like that. I just went and enrolled and got my VA benefits, like I'm starting my VA health benefits. I didn't even know I had.
Speaker 2:Where have you been? I?
Speaker 1:have. I just felt like I didn't really deserve that. I you know, there's probably there are people way worse off than me.
Speaker 2:Hold on this this is from this. It was an officer. We'll forgive him for that, but this is from a guy that jumped out of airplanes. You know I don't really however many ruck marches you were in ranger school. Okay, if you don't know anything about ranger school, that's like 62, 64 days. 64 days absolute brutality where, like, you're not even being fed right, they're sleep deprived and you just gotta go right and he's over here, like I didn't do enough to go see the va right, yeah, that's how I mean.
Speaker 1:I think that's in every a lot of people.
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely and so I actually had my first meeting with the va on. Yeah, that's how I mean, I think that's in every a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Oh, definitely, and so I actually had my first meeting with the va on august.
Speaker 2:Uh, fourth, pretty excited about that, uh going to go and I got enrolled and then I'm now going to get like a my first va doctor visit, or whatever I guess you know, and I'm 100 disabled and I'm looking at it as a standpoint of like I don't have my, like my handicap placard in my truck and I'm like, but I could put one in there right now, and then days when, like, I'm walking around, like I'm 80 and I'm like, oh yeah, oh man, like you know, but it's, it's one of those things like am I really gonna say that I'm that disabled, right, even though Even though, yeah, kind of I am, like you know, hand goes numb, ringing in the ears?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I have all that yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I had a VA my whole arm goes numb.
Speaker 1:Ooh yeah, all the way from I had a bad jump. I did like 10, 15 rear somersaults after this jump on Sicily Drop Zone at Fort Bragg and my head was ringing and I go. I had to have broken my arm but it was just nerve damage yeah, yeah, geronimo drop zone, uh, fort park, louisiana I.
Speaker 2:I remember gaining canopy control, which is when you grab a hold of risers, looking up and being like it is really windy out here. I don't remember anything else until I felt like when I was coming to it felt like I was going backwards on a snowmobile back in michigan as my head goes along.
Speaker 2:You know the drop zone so painful my cavalar because we had the old k-pots back then, but it was on crooked so I hit my head wicked hard, you know. A medic came running out and was like Sergeant Drummond, are you okay? I'm like yeah, why, you know? Because you don't want to be a wuss.
Speaker 1:Well, and that was back in the day when we took 800 milligrams of ibuprofen for each pill. Do you remember that? Yes, I didn't realize that was a lot. We got two of them. Yeah, two of them every time, yeah like here you go here's 800 milligrams each pill, so 600 milligrams of ibuprofen was like the standard.
Speaker 2:Uh, we call it ranger candy, yeah absolutely, and and you know, and so I'm like, I'm dazed, dazed the entire freaking that whole day, right. I actually looked at that ex-wife that night and was like, if I don't wake up in the morning, I died, yeah, died, I got a concussion. She's like don't you go see?
Speaker 1:I'm like uh-uh you don't go see the medic, you don't go see the medic. You might as well just put yourself in line with the chaplain to go leave the army, anyway.
Speaker 1:So yeah no matter what. I think that I've now sort of as I've matured over the past 20 years. I actually went to my uh, 20 year reunion last year I think it was, and yeah, and that was a powerful time to see all those guys and and then I was like, you know, I probably did like a lot of them were like a hundred percent disabled and I was like, oh, I guess I did have a little challenge when I was there. Anyway, all that to say, it's sometimes hard to not be the person that does it all, and so grace flies in the face of any sort of like look at what I have done. And anytime you start pointing at what you have done, that's when Jesus says depart from me. I never knew you. But if you point to Jesus and say, look what you've done on my behalf and I'm so grateful, that's where your salvation rests, not in what you've done for Jesus.
Speaker 2:I think that's really a tough thing when you're moving, when you're first getting into your walk with Christ is to realize that it is the glory of God, not the glory of Nick, because at first I've been like, look what I did. I brought this person to the church, right. When it comes down to is, look what Jesus did. All I did was walk in there and whisper his words His words, not mine. I couldn't come up with that stuff. Yeah, like you know, that's, like you know, amazing. If you read the book and you look at the whole story and how it aligns with the Old Testament, aligns with the New Testament, and Jesus just comes through as the Lamb and performs all the miracles that were talked about in the Old Testament. I didn't have an understanding, a grasp of that and then you walk somebody through that right and, and like I think probably one of the hardest things to do, though, is is to bring them to the water and just wait for it and be like you're gonna drink.
Speaker 2:Come on, you want to drink I can tell you want to drink and watch them walk away, and then you go and do it again, but like this whole walk, it's their walk with christ, it's not yours. Yeah, all you can do is put it. Plant the seed is plant the seed, and if they don't walk at Wells Branch but they go and walk somewhere else, I'm happy with that.
Speaker 1:So good, all right. So let's get to this next question, and this is going to be just a question out of the bag, if you will. All right, let's see what I got. Let's see what I got. All right, let's see what I got. Let's see what I got. No, that is a no. That is all the questions we have in the bag today. We should have some more questions. We need more questions. So, listen, if you've got a question, you can text us at 737-231-0605. We would love to hear from you. We'd love to walk through whatever question you have and we talk faith, culture and everything in between. So thanks so much for watching From our house to yours. Have an awesome week of worship.