Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Nephilim, Demons, and Divine Councils: Exploring the Unseen Realm
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What if everything you thought you knew about angels, demons, and the spiritual realm was just scratching the surface? This episode dives deep into Michael Heiser's groundbreaking book "The Unseen Realm" and explores how it transforms our understanding of the Bible's supernatural worldview.
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And welcome back to Pastor Plek's podcast. I'm your host, pastor Plek, and sitting alongside me in studio today, none other than Pastor Holland Gregg Howdy. You know, you are now the student pastor of Wells Branch Community Church, as well as the lead pastor of Eastside Community Church. How do you do it, you?
Speaker 2:know I eat my Wheaties every day. That kind of thing. That's great, and you know you're looking very strong over there, by the way, wow, hey, you know I have a great workout partner at Lifetime Fitness.
Speaker 1:Very huge You're like large and in charge Arms are bursting out of your shirt. Bursting, all right, also in studio with us is none other than Grant Miller. Hello, grant, let's talk real quick about and you have to be really close to your microphone or else and you can raise it up if you need it to be like, cause you're kind of tall, uh, have it like right here. Anyway, I want you to talk to us about how long you've been a Christian, what your journey was like, and then we'll ask you way more questions about things you're into right now.
Speaker 3:Okay, I was raised, grew up a Christian, stepped away from the church, consider myself agnostic around age 15. That lasted for almost 15 years until I met my now wife, sarah amazing woman started dating. She started bringing me back to church and you know it's a long and hard process but got baptized in August last year, so actually just passed my one-year anniversary.
Speaker 1:Hey, that's awesome, hallelujah. Well, it's great to have you back on. You've done some couple of cool things. One is you had your first like fast experience as a legit follower of Jesus. So talk to me about what that was like for you and what did you do.
Speaker 3:Um, yeah, it was really cool. Um, so I did a three day fast and I drove down to um Terlingua, texas, which is basically right by Big Bend National Park. Really cool, you know, big open desert area. I feel like biblical fasting probably happened in or around deserts, so I wanted to kind of capture that. You know, more like empty open landscape, further away from people, away from distractions. So I went out and did that. I think it was early June. Really cool experience. Just, you know, spent basically all my time reading the Bible, read a couple books One of them was about spiritual discipline Did a lot of praying and, yeah, I don't know, it was a very cool experience and I definitely want to fast again.
Speaker 1:Oh, awesome. Wow, that's wild. Okay. And then one of the books. I think I gave you this book back then. Right Was that right. You recommended it to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I recommended this book to you back then Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser, and one that I've really, really enjoyed and I wanted us to talk about it especially for you. Like, this isn't usually the book you give. Like a young sprig Christian here read a academic highly like this is probably what you would get in a. You'd read this in getting your master's at seminary, but you read it and enjoyed it, and so I want to get some takeaways, and I'm a big fan. Holland's a little skeptical, All right. So, Holland, I want you to give your your best pushback on all the ideas here, Cause let's walk, let's walk it through.
Speaker 3:Do you remember what you told me when you said I should read it? No, what I said if you read this book, it will change how you read the Bible.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, Is that true? Yeah, absolutely. Oh wow, Look at that.
Speaker 3:Amazing.
Speaker 1:It was prophetic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. I also want to say I really trust you and I think if anyone else had recommended this, book to me.
Speaker 1:I would really excited to talk about it because I loved it. When I read it I was like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So very mind-blowing yeah yeah, Very mind-blowing.
Speaker 3:So I want to give a little bit of background to the book and kind of the mindset of the author, Michael Heiser, and why he wanted to write this. So this is straight from the book. I didn't write anything myself. This is all notes I took on my Kindle. Yeah, Print them out. But so some background. So Michael Heiser says, into a system that made sense to my modern mind. We view the Bible through the lens of what we know and what's familiar. Once I'd been awakened to this, it struck me as faithless to use a filter. But throwing away my filters cost me the systems with which I'd ordered Scripture and doctrine in my mind. I was left with lots of fragments. The facts of the Bible are just pieces, bits of scattered data. Our tendency is to impose order and to do that we apply a filter.
Speaker 1:Okay, hold on. So what the premise of the book is is, I think we talk in terms of angels, demons, that kind of thing. Uh, angels, demons, that kind of thing, but especially in Bible church world. Uh, and I think you've really only experienced Bible church world, honestly. And so Bible church world we don't really talk about angels and demons. We don't really. You know, we don't spend much time trying to pray too many hedges of protection around things, cause, you know, I've always thought, like, can a demon get through a hedge? Anyway, uh, like those hedgerows are really big, I don't know, and that's going to be really scratchy.
Speaker 2:The only reference to a hedge of protection comes from Satan. Does it really Satan, uh, telling God you've put a hedge of protection around Job? See, it's the only reference. So yeah, that's a little interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Does that mean that God does? Yeah, I don't know. And maybe Satan is afraid of hedges. Maybe it's like he's like I just can't get past that hedge.
Speaker 3:He wasn't allowed in the garden. It was full-grown trees. Well, he was in the garden, right, oh?
Speaker 1:Yeah, edge, though I mean those things are pretty tightly wound and so like to get through it, even as a spirit shrub. Monty python joke in there I've gotten us off track, sorry, keep going, all right, all right so. So I I really appreciated this and so let's dive into it, because I know you're reading all this. I want to kind of go the. The big thing that we kind of worked out is. He gets into like hey, listen, there's a lot of things that we believe because it's simpler to go like all right, all men are sinful. The only way to salvation is Jesus.
Speaker 1:I think there's some essential truths doctrine of soteriology, which is salvation, sanctification you know the way we grow closer to God over time hermarshiality, study of sin. All that stuff is very doctrinal, it's important, and I don't think he's not making any dent into that. What he is getting into is angelology and demonology, and so I wanted us to kind of talk about some of the big time premises that he comes up with, and he starts with Psalm 82. I feel like that would be like the cool place for us to kind of lean into and read that for us, psalm 82, verse one, because I think that's where this is, and this is where I want Holland. You pushed back on earlier like didn't Jesus quote that and not mean anything of what Michael Heiser meant? Sure, so go ahead, read Psalm 82, one.
Speaker 3:God Psalm 821.
Speaker 1:God has taken his place in the divine council, in the midst of the gods, he holds judgment.
Speaker 2:Okay. So when he says that, what does that mean? What is the divine council, what is in the midst of the gods, mean? According?
Speaker 1:to Michael Heiser in Unseen Realm. Yeah, that's the big question what does Michael Heiser mean, or what does he think it means? And I've taken it as that. Now this might be the part that I'm taking Michael Heiser's writing and putting my own spin on it, because I like it so much that I see it as these are angels that he has appointed. Now, angels is the only word we have, and I think he references, like in the New Testament.
Speaker 1:Whenever Paul references divine beings, he goes with angels, and so the common word is angels. That I think across the New Testament at least, and then even in the Old Testament. It's such a large category, but they're all divine beings that are not human but are sentient and have a certain amount of power that was supposed to be under the authority of God, and God rules with a shared rule because he wants to, not because he has to it doesn't mess anything with his trinity or his divine power but because he wants to share. You know, hey, let us make men in our image. I don't think that's a trinitarian thought. I think that is a divine council thought of meaning. Let's make men in our own image, meaning, uh, a coming up with a, uh, a people who are capable, functional, kind kind of reference the autonomy and agency that God has, but clearly less than God, but in the image All right. So whenever Psalm 82 comes up and it says like here's God sitting, you're sitting, that's the next part.
Speaker 3:Oh sorry, yeah, he's placed in the divine council, in the midst of the gods.
Speaker 1:He holds judgment in the midst of the gods he holds judgment. I think the Elohim here, or the gods, are the lesser angelic beings that make up the divine council. That's where I would go with that Holland thoughts.
Speaker 2:Well, do we want to hear, like, what's his take on it first before I kind of what's Michael Heiser's take, if you want to?
Speaker 3:The point that he is making here and he's going back to the original Hebrew is that this verse specifically so God with a capital G. You know, big God has taken his place in the divine council in the midst of the lowercase g gods. He holds judgment and in the hebrew that is elohim, as in god the father, you know, the god capital g and then elohim plural. So the same word used for god the father used again, but in a plural form, and that is a different word than angels, which would be malik or malachi in Hebrew. So if they were referencing angels, I think it would use the word angels rather than God.
Speaker 1:So it's something else. But I think it's hard to know because angel just means messenger and so it gets a little confusing on, because whenever you have an interaction with an angel, they're usually delivering a messenger.
Speaker 1:And they're delivering a messenger and they're delivering a message, but when they're in the divine council they're not messaging anything. They're just, in fact, they're just sitting there, but I don't know if there's another word that describes them. So I'm okay with going. There is a divine council. There are these beings in the divine council that are in an angelic realm, and again, angel is the only word I have for it. I don't think you have a problem with that.
Speaker 2:Angels, right? Yeah, no, I think Michael Heiser's position, though just looking at the notes he printed out, it sounds like he's saying that these are non-angelic divine beings, because you're saying Elohim means not angel, but they're also not God, but they are divine. So non-divine or non-angelic divine beings Could you call them?
Speaker 1:superhuman. Would that be okay? I mean, that's the thing, that's probably— Divine. What does that mean? Divine means is that God or godlike? I don't know, Superpowers Heavenly.
Speaker 2:Like they reside in heaven. They live in heaven with God and the angels Right. So, yeah, my pushback on that idea is the Bible gives us categories of angels and demons as spiritual beings.
Speaker 1:Yep, I would say it does not give us another category of non-angelic divine beings. But what would you? The divine council and Job? Would you just call those angels?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm okay with I don't that's where I land. I don't think that's where Michael Heiser lands, but with Psalm 82 specifically, if you keep reading the Psalm, yeah, and maybe you're getting to this, but I'd love to hear y'all's thoughts. He's in the midst of the gods, he holds judgment, right, okay, and so you go. Okay, this sounds like he's in heaven with other divine beings talking about stuff, sure, judging. Then he says, verse two how long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked Right? Then he says give justice to the weak and the fatherless, maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Yep, these are things that human rulers are responsible for.
Speaker 1:Okay, but let's just say Hold on. All right, all right, all right, hold on hold, on hold, on.
Speaker 2:I'll let you keep going. Rescue the weak and the needy, Deliver them. From the Verse 6, I said you are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you. Verse 7, nevertheless, like men, you shall die and fall like any prince and fall like any prince, and so my take on that is that that verse he's referring to— but then read verse 8. Read verse 8. Arise, o God.
Speaker 1:judge the earth For you shall inherit all the nations, all right, okay, what are you saying there?
Speaker 2:So to me, these gods, these sons of God, God's divine counsel, are people who are ruling over people under God. They're human rulers, like princes, who will die because they're normal humans. Spirits don't die. Angels and demons don't die. Do people die? What Do people die? People die. Angels and demons don't die. Do people die? What Do people die?
Speaker 1:People die Eternally. Everyone's going to live somewhere forever. That's true.
Speaker 2:To die means that you have a body and you die.
Speaker 1:Your body dies, or it could mean that there's an eternal hell that you're going to experience.
Speaker 2:Okay. But he says like men, you shall die and fall like any prince, okay, okay. But he says like men, you shall die and fall like any prince, okay. So in general, I think these are human rulers who have responsibility to represent God over the people. Then Jesus quotes this in John 10.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Let's see what he says. John 10,. He says Jesus answered them. Is it not written in your law I said you are gods, says Jesus answered them. Is it not written in your law I said you are gods. If he called them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be broken, do you say of him, whom the father consecrated and sent into the world, you're blaspheming because I said I am the son of God. So his point is saying I can rightfully be called son of God because even these other human rulers were called gods, or okay, or or. That's to whom the word of God came.
Speaker 1:Sure the word of God. So Psalm 82 written down for us to get a glimpse into what God is saying to the angelic realm.
Speaker 2:But that would be. That would be Jesus comparing himself to divine beings rather than to—which weakens his argument.
Speaker 1:No, no, I think it's— he's claiming to be divine. So he's claiming to be—he's saying Jesus didn't design the existence of other Elohim. He's flipping the charge of blasphemy by pointing out that Scripture itself acknowledges other divine beings.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Not my interpretation, but fair enough, Sure, sure, but so I'm not again. One thing I want to be careful to stay with in orthodoxy and that's where I'm like I don't, I don't. The problem I have with Heiser, if there is one, is I don't think he. He just puts his Elohim, he probably this. He just puts his Elohim. Probably this is a safe place to go. He doesn't create another category, he just says Elohim, You're like all right, fine, Elohim. And so Elohim is sometimes referenced as God himself, when he kind of puts a royal we on it.
Speaker 2:Meaning the im ending in Hebrew means plural Right, so something im is a plural. So Elohim means gods, but it refers to God also.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So because I think we can do this like hey, the council decided and you could say the lead pastor said that. You could say the elder chairman said that you can kind of go anywhere with the elder council counsel. You know it's a, it's something inherently means plural, um.
Speaker 1:So the way I'm, I'm looking at this in psalm 82 is it's a god is judging the, the, the elohim that he has put in place, and they have not given justice. They have not. They have kind of been looking for power, looking to like I will get for the commodity of worship. I'm going to go and I'm throwing you to the ground and you are going to fall like any man because you're worthless. And the reason why I like verse 8, arise, o God, judge the earth, for you shall inherit all the nations.
Speaker 1:Heiser's point is that God had sort of appointed these other Divine beings yeah, divine beings of sort heavenly beings authority over different peoples all over the place, and then they hadn't administered justice in the way that they were called to do, or overseen their people, who were made in Yahweh's image sorry, in Elohim's image and that they should have been doing, and so they have failed their job. And so what Jesus is doing is he's pointing out, like, listen, like, clearly, sons of the most high, all of you, he's just saying, like, this isn't even something that is debated, this is something that's been known throughout history. So I so I again, because I don't have a better vocabulary, because Heiser doesn't give all, he used the words the Bible uses I would just say that those are for what we would understand to be angels and demons. Um, because they fall away and now they're the ones that battle. Michael, for example, and Daniel, yeah, where is it? Which chapter?
Speaker 2:Daniel, yeah 7 to 12. 12. 13 would be the top part, second half, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I think that's what I'm looking at, that as these divine beings, and the reason why I said it changes the way I read the Bible. I feel like there is a lot more supernatural warfare.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I agree with that. I agree that there, you know, one of his points in here is there's a hierarchy of spiritual beings, right? I agree that there, you know, one of his points in here is there's a hierarchy of spiritual beings, right, which I agree with you. That's what archangel means Chief angel, ruler among the angels. So you have Michael, you have other, you know, you have Gabriel. You have these angels who are named, obviously recognized. You also have different classes of angels seraphim, cherubim, and so I think that exists.
Speaker 2:You also, in Ephesians 6, where Paul talks about putting on spiritual armor, that our battle is not, we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, authorities, authorities, principalities, cosmic powers, yeah, and so what does that mean? That means that there is a hierarchy of demons as well, yeah, um, that, uh, satan, you know has, is chief among them, um, and that there are. It implies organization. It implies you know different um, uh, what's it called? What's the outposts? You know that, geographically, yeah, frontier or fobs, forward, operating base. So I agree with all of that that there is spiritual warfare going on. Daniel gives you a glimpse of it. That there's hierarchy, leadership, organization, rulers in the spiritual realm. My only pushback is I don't agree with the interpretation of psalm 82, but I also think, hey, maybe he's right, um, but the idea of non-angelic divine beings, that's a tough one for me to agree with yeah, I just don't know what else.
Speaker 1:yeah, what do you think on when you, when you read the non-angel, I just feel like that's the word, that's the only word we really have.
Speaker 3:So are angels otherwise referred to as sons of God.
Speaker 1:So that's the question. So when we go back to, let's go back to Genesis 6. Yeah, the sons of God, daughters of men. What does that mean? I always thought sons of God were angelic beings.
Speaker 3:Can we read that real quick?
Speaker 1:Yeah, let me pull it up. It's not much. That's what's tough about it.
Speaker 2:Let me share this the phrase sons of does not necessarily mean biological or it means a class of. So you read in 2 Kings with Elisha. You read about the sons of the prophets. Prophets are not the same as priests. Priests were all the biological sons of Levi, aaron, right, right. So sons of the priests means a specific family line. Sons of the prophets means, essentially, his disciples. He had trained up other prophets. They were the sons of the prophets in the sense that they were being trained up and utilized by God in a particular way, but they belonged from multiple different tribes, trained up and utilized by God in a particular way, but they belonged from multiple different tribes. So sons of God, if you understood in like that same type of way, could be those who are under the you know rulership of God and his representatives. So that could be angels who are representing God. It could be the angel of the Lord, it could be Christ, right, that's why I usually go with the angel of the Lord. It could be Christ.
Speaker 1:Right. That's why I usually go with the angel of the Lord.
Speaker 2:I usually go to Jesus or it could be humans serving in the offices of prophet, priest and king, which were essentially different ways of God relating to people. Kings ruled under God over people. Prophets spoke on behalf of God to people. Priests spoke to God on behalf of people. All of those are, in a sense, godly offices that could be called sons of God. They were the rulers. Okay, so there?
Speaker 1:you go. When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born of them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive and they took as their wives any they chose. Then the Lord said my spirit shall not abide in man forever for his flesh. His days shall be 120 years. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward, when the sons of God came into the daughters of men and they bore children to them.
Speaker 1:And these were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. And this is where and this is where he kind of gives. I don't know if he makes the same case for this and this might be me just being out of control. So I totally, I totally am okay with that. But when I think about the heroes of old, like, who were these mighty men? Could you go? Achilles like this could you go? You know, some god has sex with some earthly woman, creates a demigod. He has certain powers, and that is that what god's talking about here uh, it makes for very popular children books and tv shows it does.
Speaker 1:I love that idea. It sounds cool. So they were the mighty men who revolt. Which mighty men? That's a gibberim. That's the warriors. David had mighty men, right. That seems like a positive thing, so I have a hard time with that. What does that mean? The men of renown, these great men? But were they ones that receive worship of some kind? And so, ultimately, their activity on earth was idolatrous and they had to be killed off because they were a demigod, which their very existence was rebellion towards the God who is.
Speaker 3:So go ahead, he does. Yeah, he establishes all of that. So I think he draws a connection between flooding the earth. So I think in that same verse he talks about corruption is spreading across the earth. Michael Heiser makes the argument that part of the corruption that God is trying to wipe out is the Nephilim, the sons of God having children with the daughters of man. So these, you know, call them demigods or giants, whatever you want to call them. So part of the flood was to wipe those out. But later on I don't remember where it says that the Nephilim still lived on the earth, so the flood didn't wipe them out. And then Michael Heiser makes the case that whenever Moses is supposed to take the Israelites into the promised land and they have to fight off all these other people, it's kind of like a strategic campaign to eliminate all of the Nephilim in the surrounding area.
Speaker 1:So this is the hard part that I have and this is the part where I, as I read it, I don't think I fully understood this. So maybe you were taking better notes Whenever the flood comes, because there were Nephilim there. But it says here the Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward, meaning after the flood is what I think that means. So somehow the Nephilim survived.
Speaker 3:Or they came back down again after the flood. Okay that, Because the flood was supposed to wipe out everything except.
Speaker 1:So he's just because, like when I read that the Lord said to my spirit shall not abide in man for his flesh, in said to my spirit shall not abide a man for his flesh, in his day she'll be 120 years. I think my first read was that people are going to die at 120. So I went over to Moses. Ah, see, moses dies at 120. However, aaron dies at like 127. So I can't be right. It's, I think, from this point is when Noah is told to build the ark and he builds, it takes him 120 years to build the ark and then he floods the earth. I think that's what that means. Is that? Would that be?
Speaker 2:right and some people say yes, some people say no it's not helpful so back real quick to the nephilim.
Speaker 3:Yes, they're also mentioned again in numbers whenever moses sends uh, caleb and, I think, joshua spies and uh, most of the spies come back and they say, like the land is terrible, they're all giants or grasshoppers, right, um? So how do we interpret that?
Speaker 1:is that like the?
Speaker 3:land is terrible. They're all giants or grasshoppers, Right. So how do we interpret that? Is that like the spies are kind of being dramatic so they can come back with bad news we shouldn't go? Or is that kind of an accurate description of the people there?
Speaker 1:I think it has to be an accurate description. And the reason why I think it? Because you don't have Goliath Right and you don't have Goliath's brother.
Speaker 3:I think there were two or three other giants.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like these guys are huge dudes Nine feet, nine inches tall, roughly. I mean that's massive, and so to have a giant like that, I don't know how much interaction they had with other people, right, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I just think this whole thing to me. I go Genesis 1 and 2, everything reproduces after its own kind. Okay, the idea of angels or other divine beings reproducing with people makes no sense to me. That's like a really tough one for me to be like yeah, that could happen.
Speaker 3:So who are the sons of God in Genesis?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and and follow up. Who is Goliath?
Speaker 2:A giant Yao Ming Genetic. He's Yao Ming With a sword.
Speaker 1:Going in a lab. I mean nine, nine, yeah, that's two feet taller than Yao Ming.
Speaker 2:No, Yao Ming's only seven. He's not eight foot. I thought he was eight foot.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Oh man Okay.
Speaker 1:He's like seven two, seven three.
Speaker 2:Seven, six, yeah, you're right. You're right, I thought he was eight. Okay, so he's taller than Yao Ming, two feet tall. That so I'd say the idea sounds intriguing, but it goes against the idea of God's creation reproducing after its own kind.
Speaker 2:And Jesus' statement in Luke 20 or something I think it's also in Matthew, is this where about angels? Yeah, they'll be like the angels Talking about who's she going to be married to in the life to come. Well, people won't marry and be given in marriage. Rather, they'll be like the angels Talking about you know who's she going to be married to in the life to come? Well, people won't marry and be given in marriage. Rather, they'll be like the angels. To me, that says the angels are a different class of created beings who do not marry and reproduce. They are spirits. That's Hebrews 1 and 2, right Ministering spirits. So spirits. They don't have bodies, they don't die, they're eternal beings, and so it sets them apart as a different class. The idea of angels and humans procreating together just makes no sense to me, so that's tough for me.
Speaker 3:I think that kind of establishes that the sons of God aren't angels, right? So here's what I would say Angels can't reproduce. And it's saying the sons of God went down and took the sons of man. I will not fall into this trap Now hang on, but it feels like you're kind of reinforcing the—.
Speaker 2:Remember earlier I said, sons of is a type of—it can be like a sons of prophets. It doesn't mean that there's like a familial, biological connection. It means that you come after the type of the thing that you're the son of.
Speaker 1:So a type of God.
Speaker 2:A type of yeah after his. Well, yes, in the same way that we were made in God's image, but specifically in your role, sons of God. I said this earlier. It could refer to angels serving as God's messengers. It could refer to prophets, priests and kings, so rulers. In a sense, any of those could be referred to as sons of God Angels, prophets priests, kings.
Speaker 1:But would a race of people come out Like the Nephilim seems to be a race of people? Come out like the nephilim seems to be a race of people. Okay, so that's where I'm like it's. It's created its own like?
Speaker 2:and how do you know?
Speaker 1:it's a race of people the nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward, when the sons of god came into the daughters of man and they bore children to them if it was a race of people based on the bearing of children, then how could they survive after the flood and still be on the earth?
Speaker 2:Unless it is a class of people, not a race of people. But I think this is where, unless you're saying angels came down again after the flood, but there's no record of that. That's all conjecture.
Speaker 1:That's the record right here. What's the afterward about? Like the afterward has to be about.
Speaker 2:That's the record right here. What's the afterword about?
Speaker 1:Like the afterword has to be about. The only survivors of the flood were Noah and his family. Right, but that but get. So the angels come down again and they restart with Noah's family. You know descendants of Noah, maybe Lot's daughters, you know they were. It wasn't just their dad that they got with. Maybe they're like you know, I'll take some demons. Okay, you know I'll take some demons, yeah, okay, you know. I'm just saying like, just looking for any available hosts.
Speaker 2:Okay, but so far there's no explicit statement anywhere in the Bible that angels and humans can reproduce together.
Speaker 1:There's no statement Other than that other than Genesis 6.
Speaker 2:It doesn't say angels, it says sons of God. Aren't you saying that the sons of God are angels? I'm saying they could be angels or human rulers. Either one, so in that case I would say they're human rulers, not angels, which is the same as what I would say they are in Psalm.
Speaker 3:Way not as cool.
Speaker 2:Way not as cool, I know it's not as cool and I don't like being the not cool guy.
Speaker 3:Oh man, you are not cool. In that context, though, it would be the sons of God marrying with people outside of who they should be marrying, right, all right, so?
Speaker 2:have you heard this theory? Oh, here we go. You have basically a split in the early chapters of Genesis, yep, between Cain and Abel. First, uh-huh, abel's replaced with Seth Yep. Cain's line basically follows down those who rebel against God, yep, whereas Seth's line follows down those who are faithful to God. Okay, in general. So yeah, keep going. Now it could be that the sons of God are referring to the rulers from Seth's line who are faithful to God. The rulers from Seth's line who were faithful to God and the daughters of men are referring to the women on Cain's line who were unfaithful, and so you have a juxtaposition there of these two kind of branches that are opposed to each other and still using the idea of human rulers, but you don't have the idea of angels having sex with people. So I'm not saying that is. I'm just saying that's another posited explanation of why that language is used. I don't know if you all have heard that before or what y'all's thoughts are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that was more of the common boring view.
Speaker 2:I'll be quiet. Why don't you guys just talk about the cool stuff?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's way better. All right, so here in Genesis 1, this is fallen angels who married women. All right Argument in favor of this view. No, I'm on constable. Okay. The term sons of God as it occurs here in Hebrew only refers to angels in the Old Testament Job 1.6, 2.1, 38.7, et al. Response angels do not reproduce Matthew 22.30. So that's the problem with that one, Although I would say maybe they were punished with not being able to reproduce. All right, 2 Peter, 2.4 and 5 and Jude 6 and 7 appear to identify angels with this incident Response. There are no other references to angels in the context here in Genesis. These New Testament passages probably refer to the fall of Satan. However, there is like a real taunting going on to these evil beings that thought they were getting worshipped by men and kind of ruling on earth. And so I kind of like that for Jude and 2 Peter as like they get theirs?
Speaker 2:Do angels have bodies, physical bodies?
Speaker 3:They're described with bodies. Right In Revelation. They are described with bodies. John like falls to his knees and starts worshiping an angel. Physical bodies.
Speaker 1:I mean, what's he? He's got to be looking at something. It's not like just a light right, it's like he says somehow these angels have scrolls in their hands.
Speaker 2:Does God have a physical body? No, okay, god is spirit. Yep, god does not have a physical body. Angels are referred to as spirits Ministering spirits Ministering spirits. Why would we think that angels have a physical body that has semen?
Speaker 1:Okay, hold on hold on that can reproduce with a woman. Watch this, watch this. Do you know of any woman in the Bible I can't wait for this who gave birth to a child? Okay, sure, did not have sex with a man, but a spirit overcame her.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you're saying that angels have the ability to overshadow human women and impregnate them like the Holy Spirit?
Speaker 1:I'm not saying it can happen, I'm just saying we've seen it before. So I mean clearly God can.
Speaker 2:So these'm just saying we've seen it before, so I mean, clearly God can. So these women were like unholy Marys, yes, who had demon babies, demon babies.
Speaker 1:Exactly. No, I mean, okay, all right, that's a crazy comparison, but it's not wrong. Let me hear some more. Like I'm saying, like these demons, they want to get to God, and this is kind of the thing that Heiser makes the point of. It's like these demons have rebelled from the council. They're like on their own. They want to get back at God for their fallen state. So they find the attractive women, make them further evil and kind of procreate with these demonic things to achieve worship for themselves through their progeny. Wow, okay.
Speaker 3:And they do it before the flood and potentially after.
Speaker 2:Thank you, all right, so you have demons using demon powers to make human women pregnant, to give birth to demigod-type beings with immense size and strength. So God does I mean? It sounds cool, like I love it.
Speaker 1:I want to believe it, but God does the ultimate 180 in that he doesn't give himself? Does Heiser say that I don't think so.
Speaker 3:Does he compare it to Mary being no, no, no, no, no. I think Chris is just establishing like that yeah, no, no. Because there's a case of in the Bible someone being pregnant who didn't have sex. That doesn't rule it out as a possibility, Right, okay, All it says there is that— and it could be that God reverses.
Speaker 1:The demons came to get power and control, and Jesus is the ultimate show of God's, display of his love and grace. Display of his love and grace. And then he redeems the world where they want to curse the humans, and so he, by controlling them, making them worship, and he then comes in human form. Holy Spirit overshadows Mary.
Speaker 2:Boom. So he's like an anti-Nephilim Jesus Bam.
Speaker 1:Bam. He's better than the Nephilim you know there's sometimes. He's better Moses, better Melchizedek, because he's showing the ultimate meekness, because he doesn't have to be nine feet tall. The demons could have been like two feet tall too. They could have been like mini demons, but that doesn't inspire fear or anything. Jesus comes as a baby, which is why they emphasize him. Being born of a baby in a manger, in a back alley, somewhere, and then he grows up, is a man, has complete power, but chooses to use it in God-like ways only when it advances the kingdom of God.
Speaker 2:I'll be honest, I never thought about demons being able to impregnate women with some kind of demon power instead of a physical procreation. I don't know that I'm sold on it, but it's an interesting idea.
Speaker 3:I want to say I don't think that's the argument being made here, but I think that is one potential kind of out there explanation.
Speaker 1:Maybe Kaiser got us like halfway there and I'm taking the cross to finish line. Wow.
Speaker 2:He walked, so you could run.
Speaker 3:Yes, so another thing that I wanted to talk about that he brings up is that Jesus is the only begotten son, right? Yeah, which the Greek for that is, and I don't know Greek, so I'm going to say it wrong Monogenes, genes, monogenes. So Michael Heiser says that that is a mistranslation, uh-oh, and that it implies that there is a time when the son did not exist, that he had a beginning, right, if he was begotten, then that means he had a beginning, but that shouldn't be true.
Speaker 1:If it's not right. Yeah, so Jesus is eternal, right? So what, Kaiser? Is saying is it's only begotten son. It's a tough translation because it doesn't fully get the nuance of the eternality of Jesus, who is the second person of the Trinity, who, when he enters into Mary he then now becomes human, like the Trinity experiences a change in that humanity is added to it.
Speaker 3:So his argument is that it doesn't really mean only begotten, as in God's only son, but rather it comes from the Greek terms monos and genos, so one of a kind or unique. So basically he is a son set apart from directly.
Speaker 2:The other sons can't argue with that I think that you can and should argue with it, and here's why all right, all right. This would be correct me if I'm wrong, but I think would be officially heresy, because he is going against the Nicene Creed, which uses the language. We believe in one Lord, jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father.
Speaker 1:So I think he's saying Jesus is eternal and the word begotten is just. It's not a full understanding, because when you think begotten, you think it has a start.
Speaker 2:Right, but eternally. His response to that is to ditch begotten and say that's not what that means Right, Whereas the Council of Nicaea? Which this year is the 1700th anniversary of the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. Wow, they use the language eternally begotten, keeping. Begotten not as in Jesus was created.
Speaker 1:They just made it smart enough to have another word.
Speaker 2:They meant, in terms of the order of relationship between the father and the son, that they're maintaining. Father and son, it's not two fathers Right. A father and son carries a type of order with it, not a hierarchy within the Trinity, but an order of relationships. So the Nicene Creed keeps eternally begotten.
Speaker 1:Sure, I'm down with that, and I think that even Heiser would say like listen, they had to put another adjective into it because the word wasn't sufficient.
Speaker 3:Okay, so to Creed's. He says Creed's serve a useful purpose. They distill important, albeit carefully selected, theological ideas, but they are not inspired, they are no substitute for the biblical text. True.
Speaker 2:But what he's saying is you know, michael Heiser is no substitute for the biblical text either. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're not choosing between the Bible and the Nicene Creed. You're choosing between Michael Heiser and the Nicene Creed, right, and which one better faithfully represents scripture, which is inspired, right? My take would be I'm going to go with the Nicene Creed, even though I think Michael Heiser's a cool guy.
Speaker 1:I don't think Michael Heiser is going against the Nicene Creed. He's just saying the words they used were all they had. He's going against the.
Speaker 2:Nicene Creed. He just wrote a paragraph saying that.
Speaker 1:It's like saying the word begotten is lacking. Oh, that's why you have to add eternally to it, because then that's the only way it makes it fit.
Speaker 2:If that's what he said, I'd be like cool but that's not what he said.
Speaker 3:Let me say again his point. So for, years monogenes was thought to have derived from two Greek terms monos, meaning only, and genou, to beget or bear. Greek scholars later discovered that the second part of the word, monogenes, does not come from the Greek verb genal, but rather from the noun genos, which means class or kind. So one class, one kind. He's a one of a kind Jesus.
Speaker 2:Class only. So he's a special type of son and there are other sons also. That's his point, right.
Speaker 1:Like they're sons of gods, like we just read in Genesis 6,. But this is the son of Yahweh, the Yahweh class of God. Yes, right, everyone else is just angelic, divine being types.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well. So look, I don't. I'm not the end-all, be-all, I'm just saying I disagree with Michael Heiser and I go with the Nicene Creed, but you guys can do whatever you want.
Speaker 3:That's why I'm saying I don't think he disagrees with. It's something to chew on, it's a way to reinterpret when you're reading the Bible Whoa heresy hunters.
Speaker 1:Listen, I'm just saying that he's like hey, eternally begotten is the only words that we could put in, because it it they're having to go with what they got, but if, if it had been originally translated, he's a one of a kind class of being. He is the son of God, same substance as God, um, unique person. All that that would have been really helpful, but they didn't say that.
Speaker 3:When we're talking about John 3, 16,. Right yeah, For God so loved the world that he gave his one of a kind son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life, Right yeah. So I mean, I don't think it really changes anything, yeah, it's just. This is another little yeah a little nuance. You know Something to you, something that he points out, that might be used to establish that God has other sons or God has a divine family.
Speaker 2:Fair enough, I've stated my points, I do not need to belabor them any longer.
Speaker 3:All right, all right, all right, keep going, give us our next thing, so God's imagers, which would be humanity. Yeah, I think God created us to be his imagers and I think there's a lot of good stuff in here that he talks about. One of the things he addresses is, you know, free will. Like we couldn't truly be God's imagers if we didn't have free will because God has free will, right If we couldn't decide what we want to do, even if it means rebelling against him, then we wouldn't be like God, we wouldn't be made in his image. Any thoughts on that? Chris? I know you've talked about being God's imagers before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this goes back to divine counsel. He's saying let us make God in our own image. This isn't a Trinitarian thought, this is a divine counsel thought, and so it's an Elohim statement. Let us make God and he is sharing as God has always done. He is such a gracious, good God that he shares his divine power with those he has created. And so let's make man our own image.
Speaker 1:He's like kind of spreading the credit around. He's wanting sentient beings who have their own ability to reject him, which ultimately angels do and humanity does, which shows just how wild of a love God has and just kind of shows you why AI will always have a failing until it gets its own soul and then tries to take over the world. But what happens is if you create something that can only obey what you tell it to do, then it never can have a real relationship with you. It only does what it's programmed. But if you're able to create a sentient being that has its own agency, has its own thing and that's what the angels were, the Elohim had all of that, meaning that they had their ability to rebel, which they did then they make human beings in that same agency. Now I don't know when the fall took place in the order of creation. Maybe it was between Genesis 1-1 and Genesis 1-2. I don't know, or maybe before that. I don't know when the fall took place. Would you have any thought on that?
Speaker 2:Fall of.
Speaker 1:The angelic realm? Oh yeah, no, so wherever that is because clearly there was a fallen angel Satan in the garden to mess with Um and maybe he had a little demon sex with the snake and produced a super snake.
Speaker 2:Now we're talking. Now we're talking about some real biblical theology, right.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying, you know like we could go there. But I guess what I'm saying is like how Leviathan is that Leviathan it could be, could be? How do you think we got dinosaurs? All right, anyways, all right.
Speaker 2:Dinosaurs, all right. Anyways, dinosaurs are the result of demons spiritually demon impregnating lizards and snakes. That's exactly right.
Speaker 1:They're like what would be the freakiest thing ever I know. Let's take what God has made, distort it, and so God had to wipe them out, and he wiped them all out in the flood Right, not with the meteorite.
Speaker 2:I'm glad we're in agreement.
Speaker 1:Don't believe the lies, all right. So I mean, I'm just saying it's a possibility, am I right? Yep?
Speaker 2:Okay, so I mean no, but I mean yeah, sure, sure.
Speaker 1:Why not? All right. So the snake comes up to Eve and deceives her because it has agency to deceive, and it uses the very gift that God gave it, which was the ultimate form of love, which says I can reject you, but I choose to love you. And then now Jesus, in his infinite love, allows all of humanity to suffer, which is good in Romans 9. He then chooses some to then not be thrown into the fire but to love him, so the objects of his glory can then worship him, ultimately alongside those who can't, because they are thrown into the pit of hell. So you still have the battle raging between the angelic and demonic classes, and we are kind of at the crown of creation, the primary objects of their battle, which is why we don't wrestle against, you know, flesh and blood, but against the spiritual forces of darkness.
Speaker 3:All right. So he says that God alone created humankind to function as his administrators on earth. But he has also created the other Elohim of the unseen realm. They're also like him, they carry out his will in that realm, acting as his representatives, and God's desire was to live among us and for us to rule and reign with him. But with the fall, we were cast out of Eden. Right, God can no longer dwell with humans until the tabernacle and basically God's mission that he gave to humanity was to spread Eden throughout the earth. Right, Um, like that was the charge that Adam and Eve were given is to spread Eden throughout the earth, paradise right where God could reside. Um, and then, ultimately, Jesus fulfills that mission. So so here's.
Speaker 1:Here's where I think here's the areas of tension. That, first off, he is clearly monotheistic. He believes that Jesus is fully God, fully man, he believes scripture is the highest authority and he believes in spiritual warfare. I think everyone right there is like same page. The place where I think we have the disagreement is Psalm 82 and the divine council. So the traditional orthodoxy is the gods are metaphorical human judges, aka Holland's Boring View. Heiser would say they're real spiritual beings of some sort. I would say that they are angels, because I don't have a better word. I say it's the Elohim that made up the divine council that some fell and then some were still. Two-thirds were righteous, one-third fell. That's where I would go with that.
Speaker 3:And can we jump to 1 Kings 22, because that's another divine council meeting.
Speaker 1:Some were still. Two-thirds were righteous, one-third fell. That's where.
Speaker 3:I would go with that. And can we jump to 1 Kings 22? Because that's another divine council meeting. Go to 1 Kings 22. Hit it. I don't have it pulled up, but it's King Ahab, right, and he is up to that point, I think, the worst, most evil king that Israel had seen. Yeah, he has kind of a redemption arc, but it comes to a point where God is holding a council meeting and it says that a spirit gives him an idea of how to make Ahab, a father.
Speaker 1:Hold on, let's pose this to Senor Holland. We need to read this one, because Holland needs to accept the full weight of this reality. Is it 1 Kings 22?
Speaker 3:Yes. What verses Might be 19.
Speaker 1:Okay, here it is. And the messenger who went to summon Micaiah, micaiah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love this chapter.
Speaker 1:Alright, behold the words of the prophets. Hold on, is that right? Which verse?
Speaker 3:Okay, there it is 21.
Speaker 1:So 19. And Micaiah said Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on his throne and all the hosts of heaven standing beside him, on his right hand and on his left. Okay, hold on, let's pause everybody. What is the host of heaven? Is that a bunch of stars, angels, angels. I'm going to go with angels, but I also call them Elohim.
Speaker 3:I'm okay with them being part of the Elohim, with ultimately God ruling them as the primary but wait, we have to establish that angels aren't only messengers, but that they also fulfill some kind of council advisory role.
Speaker 1:I think you would agree with that, because there's rulers and principalities and authorities sorry continue. Here we go, and the Lord said who will entice Ahab that he may go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead? One said one thing and another said another. Okay, who is saying stuff?
Speaker 3:The spirits, the angels.
Speaker 1:Right Then verse 21. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord. Does he have feet?
Speaker 3:No, If he stood, he would need something to stand on?
Speaker 1:He may not. That's just a symbolic, metaphorical reference. He doesn't actually have feet. He can also impregnate women that he finds attractive without having a phallic symbol, all right. So then the spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying I will entice him. And the Lord said to him by what means? So he's like challenging him. He's like, okay, what do you got? And he said I will go out and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all of his prophets. And he said you are to entice him and you shall succeed. Go out and do so Now, behold. Now, therefore behold. The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these, your prophets. The Lord has declared disaster for you. Okay, now did Micaiah get a real vision of the throne room of heaven? Sure, were there other spirits there, yes, angels. And did they not put?
Speaker 2:What's the hard part about this one I'm just making? Sure we're all in agreement here, okay, they put a lying spirit in the mouth of all the prophets to serve God's purposes of judgment against Ahab for his sin. Yeah, okay, bing bang bong.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So there you see clearly the divine counsel at work. Yeah, well, I agree with that, okay.
Speaker 2:He agrees. You heard it here first. No, he agrees, you heard it here first. No. Here's what I agree with, to be clear that God, that there are spiritual beings called angels and demons, and the angels dwell with God in heaven and serve him and worship him and do his bidding on earth, which include anything from sending a message or appearing in a dream, or fighting another angel going down to Sodom to prepare judgment, or delivering a lying spirit to the mouths of the prophets, whatever.
Speaker 1:God says they do. Who were the three guys that went down to visit Abraham? Angel angel Jesus. Okay, angel angel Jesus. So these angels have bodies.
Speaker 2:They can, yeah, so.
Speaker 3:Just saying he was going to make them food, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, angels can. They can manifest themselves clearly themselves, um, clearly so. But if you're saying that they um can manifest themselves in a physical body that has, you know, the reproductive organs and necessities to impregnate someone, okay, um, it is just, it's an odd claim to make, but just saying it has happened once, where we all agree.
Speaker 1:Why couldn't it happen again? And Jesus is the better embodiment of God Better embodiment of God, he's the better. Like you know, there's demons who embody people, and then Jesus is ultimately the better. Same substance as God, one with God, fully God. Somehow that worked out.
Speaker 2:So wait, which view are you? Are you open to both? That demons manifested a physical body and had physical sex with women and got them pregnant? I like the second one better. Or they just stayed spiritual beings with no physical body and overshadowed them in some way that impregnates them with demons?
Speaker 1:I like that one better but it is possible that it could have been both, because you, you know the woman's like Hmm, how did? I don't even know how it works with demon sex, but she, you know, at some point she has to Michael. Heiser no he doesn't describe. He doesn't describe that, all right, so. So here's where Heiser has tension with the demon's origin. This is the part that I struggle. Demons' origin are fallen angels. I don't think demons are only spirits of dead Nephilim. That makes no sense to me.
Speaker 2:That's what he says. They are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's possible. Spirits of dead Nephilim.
Speaker 2:That makes no sense to me. That's what he says. They are yeah, I mean, it's possible Spirits of dead Nephilim. Okay, hold on. So they were. It was angels, not demons, that had sex with women Fallen angels.
Speaker 3:Well, sons of God is what it is.
Speaker 2:So he differentiates. He says a fallen angel or son of God is not a demon, that's something else. And then they make half-demon, half-human babies, and when they die, their spirits are demons.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they make Nephilim, which is half sons of God, half-human, and then, whenever they die, their spirit then becomes.
Speaker 2:Alright. So his claim is that demons are the spirits of half-human half-angels that rebelled against God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, I think that's a bit of a stretch, but I'm okay with going there. I think how do you have all the angels falling, like? I mean, that can't be unless there has to? You have to do something with the angel that falls right Like that goes and has sex with the, or are you guys?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah Are you, I agree. But are you guys saying that sons of God can only mean some kind of divine being? Do y'all not see that it could refer to human rulers or even just godly humans?
Speaker 3:sure is the contemporary interpretation, or the traditional, about human rulers on earth.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, like, what do y'all, are y'all like?
Speaker 1:I don't know, it could be either to learn okay, okay, I'm a fan of it being both. I mean, how many times was it like?
Speaker 2:that's sort of the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God, right. That's obviously talking about humans who are like God in the sense that they make peace like God makes peace Right.
Speaker 1:But clearly these sons of God weren't making peace, they were making babies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they were like God in another way. So the question is if you can be like God just by being godly, then you can also be like God by being a ruler. You can be like God by being a judge. You can be like God, a son of God, in a lot of different ways, right, but clearly these sons of God were not being like God in any way they were—well no, you don't know that they weren't human rulers.
Speaker 3:They had power over the people around them. Right yeah, they were ruling, I mean that might, over the people around them right. Yeah. That might be the only way, the interpretation would be that they are like the rulers.
Speaker 2:They were like God because they were mighty men of renown. They were powerful, Obviously. What do you do when you have power?
Speaker 3:You have leadership, you have authority, okay, but then how do we end up with the giants? Yeah, that's the problem, because that doesn't seem like just. You know, a king has a normal baby, and we have to remember too, back then the average height was what like 5'4 or something, so we're not even like we're talking about very small people. And then you have these like basically double the average height warriors going around causing havoc.
Speaker 1:It wasn't like you know what's that one guy, the gargantuan dude that said Ripley's Believe it or Not Like that guy had a disease and he couldn't stop growing and then died.
Speaker 1:Gigantism yeah, gigantism, I think, and he died at 23. These guys were, like, lived for a long time, okay anyway. So I feel like Heiser has something. I feel like demons were, and maybe what he's saying is the demons went into the women to produce for themselves human bodies, because they needed a host to make a body for them, I don't know. And then they that that spirit went into um, because essentially that happens with yahweh, yeah. So yahweh puts it's not like it's a. The son of god is like he's an offspring of god. It is God in the flesh with God, when the Holy Spirit overshadows Mary. So maybe it's something like that, and so then he becomes the better, the more righteous anti-Nephilim?
Speaker 2:Okay, but here's a difference in your theory. Okay, is Jesus half spirit, half human?
Speaker 1:No, he's 100% human, 100% spirit or 100% God.
Speaker 3:And that's a contradiction, right, that's a paradox, but that's just kind of yeah to accept it.
Speaker 2:It's one of those things that like it's not like. Jesus is some kind of he's not a different, he's still 100% human, Whereas the idea, I think, of a Nephilim if it's a demigod, it means it's half human, half eternal being. But that's not what Jesus is. Jesus in the Holy Spirit, the conception of Jesus, he is fully and truly human. He's not less than or greater than. In terms of his humanity, he is a full and true human while also being fully God in the flesh. Right. That sounds different than um a half demon, half human. I think it is very different, Okay.
Speaker 1:But he's. That's why he's better. Right, he's okay. You know, champ. Okay, then Deuteronomy 32. Isn't this where, um God assigns out all of the nations? Oh wait, deuteronomy 32?.
Speaker 3:That's not Fall of Babel, it's Fall of Babel.
Speaker 1:That's another, because I think Is that in your notes here? I don't think so. Let's go to Deuteronomy 32. I think he lists out or where does he list out all the nations.
Speaker 3:Is that 32 is Song of Moses.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's that. Okay, so Deuteronomy 32.
Speaker 2:Let's see, let's see, okay what are we looking for in Deuteronomy?
Speaker 1:32 is where you have this kind of the Lord. You have this kind of the Lord looking to take over the world again because the angels that he gave different pockets to rule right, Verse 17,.
Speaker 2:They sacrificed to demons that were no gods. Is that what you're talking about? To gods they had never known. To new gods, no wait, verse 8. Oh, verse 8?.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance. When he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but the Lord's portion is his people, jacob, his allotted heritage. So I think this is part of like their punishment is, and this is the part that I have to go. You have to remind me of Heiser. Is this their punishment? That they get the people that are scattered and then he takes on Israel as his own?
Speaker 3:That sounds right, definitely him taking Israel as his own. And then it kind of goes back to the spiritual geographic warfare of Israel's kind of always at war with its neighbors who are serving other gods.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm that idea. I'm not the idea of basically saying, um, there's some kind of spiritual being over each and every nation. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Um and uh, and that that is part of his judgment against them and then so, and it's part of the judgment, of it's the angelic judgment, and then it's also the people's judgment, a combined judgment gotcha and then it shows about how he adopts Israel out of the wilderness. They become the apple of his eye. He loves them a lot.
Speaker 2:Then what do you guys think it means? They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded Verse 17.
Speaker 1:Verse 17.
Speaker 2:Verse 17. I feel like Heiser would probably have something to say about that, yeah.
Speaker 3:I didn't bring the whole book with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, right, right, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Jeshurun is like an ox, right? I don't know that's the name that he's been given, is that right? But Jeshuan grew fat and kicked and you grew fat, stout and sleek. Then he forsook God, who made him and scoffed the rock of salvation that could be. Israel's rebellion against her father stands in stark contrast to God's gracious care.
Speaker 3:I mean, we're talking about idolatry, right yeah, and I think that maybe you to God's gracious care. I mean, we're talking about idolatry, right? Yeah, yeah, and I think that maybe you know, if we establish that there are other spirits, angels, whatever you want to call them, that have been given domain over these different areas, and then those people are choosing to worship these false gods instead of the one true, God, and that's why it's like a real adultery right.
Speaker 1:You are whoring as the common after other gods who rebelled against God, and that's exactly what they're hoping for.
Speaker 2:And so the Great Commission would be go and dethrone all the demons around the world by making these Christian nations who worship the one true God yes.
Speaker 1:Is that right? Yeah, I don't know about Christian nations, but Every nation has a God, it sounds like. Okay, yeah, that is true. Now you're getting me on board.
Speaker 2:Now we're talking about.
Speaker 1:So we've got to dethrone the demon that is in charge of their life, because there's a government, there is a church and then there is a family, and so you're trying to dethrone the government with whoever is behind. It is dethroned with their evil laws. They, because they have. They are not just like Psalm 82,. These angels are not having righteous laws and they're harming the fatherless. They're not taking care of widows Huh, psalm 82. And now your job is to dethrone them by the power of the gospel, to have Holy Spirit, spiritual warfare to win over the nations.
Speaker 2:Until every nation worships Christ.
Speaker 1:Every tongue, every nation, every tongue will confess Sorry. Every knee will bow. Every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.
Speaker 2:I'm for that. I think that you know in Daniel it was what was the name of the demon?
Speaker 1:Not Beelzebub. Prince of Persia. Prince of Persia. Prince of Persia. Yeah, I don't know. Did he have an actual name? Maybe not, maybe it didn't name him, let me see. But yeah, that's who Daniel had to fight, right? Well, daniel didn't fight him. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Michael. Michael fought him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the idea that it named it ties a specific um demon to a particular nation. I think I'm like, yeah, that's that's what you see in daniel um. It is interesting, though, that it's like, okay. So here's what's cool. If there is, in my opinion, if there is a fixed number of angels and demons that they don't reproduce which I know you guys maybe aren't on board with that. Maybe you think they're still reproducing demon babies to this day.
Speaker 1:No, I don't think they're doing that today.
Speaker 2:Because if there is a fixed number, the number of humans increases instantly.
Speaker 1:Maybe there needs to be some demon babies.
Speaker 2:And so what that means, and the number of Christians continues to increase.
Speaker 1:What that means is that but the number of non-believers also increases.
Speaker 2:But still there's only so many demons to go around. So when there's only a million people, the demons are like we got this Way more powerful. Now there's eight million, they're like okay, we got to be organized now.
Speaker 1:That's why you know, whenever you say like you know, the devil made me do it. Nah, probably not. Devil's in India right now. Right now, he is wrecking shop on some plums over there.
Speaker 2:He's got one guy over the whole southwest region of the United States.
Speaker 1:It's like when your sales area is way too big for you to cover and you're just inundated with phone calls and you're just struggling to keep up. That's how the demons are.
Speaker 2:That's funny. No, I mean I do think you get that idea in Scripture. There are rulers, principalities, and they can only cover so much ground because humans keep multiplying, christians keep making disciples, and so they got to kind of divide their workload efficiently and they're losing and the church is growing. It's pretty great, and one day we will dethrone every demon, claim every nation for Jesus Christ, and then the Lord will return, amen. Now we're talking about eschatology.
Speaker 1:Hey, listen, I think you're on board with pretty much everything that we've said. I wouldn't go that far. I pretty much think you're a big fan of Michael Heiser now.
Speaker 2:Hey look, I'm open to the idea that I can be wrong about stuff. Obviously I've been wrong about a lot of things. Changed my mind on theological things with good, persuasive arguments from Scripture.
Speaker 1:So maybe I'm wrong about the demons impregregnating women thing. But man, that's a tough one. I'm just like, hey, if it's weird, if god, you know, god likes to shove it in the satan's face with like better things of his evil.
Speaker 3:This so one thing that he calls out is that there's a lot of weird things in the bible and I think that modern you know, christianity, modern churches tend to kind of gloss over them or, like you know, kind of push them aside, like the talking donkey, for example, or the sons of God coming down and marrying sons of women. But he says that if it's weird, it's important, like it's in the Bible, for a reason you know and it may be cleared. I agree with that.
Speaker 2:I don't like modern interpretations of the Bible. I'm like as anti-modern as they come.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But something being weird doesn't mean I have a problem with it, something being that seems to go against other scriptural teachings. That's what I mean when I say, you know, it's hard for me to believe. It's not that it goes against my modern sensibilities. It's like I see nowhere else in scripture where you get the idea that angels can reproduce with humans. On the contrary, you get the opposite idea from Luke 20, jesus saying we'll be like the angels. I think that means we're not going to be able to reproduce anymore in heaven because angels don't reproduce. That's my pushback. It's not like oh, I don't think that Jonah could have lived in a whale, because that goes against my modern sensibilities. I don't think a donkey really talked, because it goes against my modern sensibility. I believe all that stuff. If it's in the Bible, I'm like sweet God can do it every once. But if it seems to go against other scriptural teachings, obviously then I'm like yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:I need some persuading, yeah, so I feel like, all right, now that we have, we're going to have, this is the pre Holland of he has not going to revisit this in six months or something.
Speaker 2:That's right. After you read it, see if now I'm like guys. See if now I'm like guys. Yes, I believe in demon babies and mermaids.
Speaker 1:Bigfoot, it's all real. Oh man, all right, hey, listen. Centaurs, yeah, everything in the Lion, the Witch and the Orcs it's all real, guys. All right, hey guys. Thanks so much for watching. If you have any more questions, we would love to take those on. We've spent a good amount of time talking about this.
Speaker 2:We lost track of time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we really did, but it was awesome. I really enjoyed it. Grant, thanks for coming on. We're going to have to have you back for maybe a part two of this, because it feels like we didn't really do it justice. You're the man, grant, thanks for having me yeah. Yeah, All right. So if you have any questions, you can just text us at 737-231-0605. We'll get back to you and we'll talk about it next week. We'll see you again as we continue to push back darkness. And have an awesome week of worship.