Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Navigating Politics, Tragedy, and Personal Boundaries as Christians
Have a question or comment for Pastor Plek or one of his guests. Send it here.
Pastor Plek and guest co-host Ruben Campos from Lifeway navigate the challenging intersection of faith and politics in an increasingly polarized world. They explore how Christian leaders should respond to political violence, cultural controversies, and personal questions of faith in everyday life.
• Discussion of the Charlie Kirk assassination attempt and whether pastors should address political events from the pulpit
• Examination of how Christian leaders can maintain biblical truth while acknowledging political tensions
• Reflection on accusations of racism against public figures and how to evaluate such claims fairly
• Analysis of the relationship between religious belief and political engagement throughout scripture
• Exploration of how pastors can lead congregations through divisive political moments
• Discussion on whether "celebrity crushes" are compatible with Christian relationships and marriage
• Consideration of when admiration crosses into idolatry and objectification
Text your questions to us at 737-231-0605 or visit pastorplek.com. We talk faith, culture, and everything in between.
Like, share, and subscribe! We love seeing and responding to your reviews and comments.
Support the show: https://wbcc.churchcenter.com/giving
and welcome back to pastor plex podcast. I'm your host, pastor plec, along with my co-host today is ruben campos. You work at lifeway. Yeah, lifeway christianity. We love lifeway, so lifeway is pretty great, and so we are so excited to have him on board with us today. We've got a couple questions that we have been dealing with. Uh, one, especially in light of the Charlie Kirk assassination which we found out about. We were sitting right here last week when that came up and so I want us to talk about it. It was one of those things. We were watching the events unfold right here and we almost went live with it, but it was like, ah, it's too raw, too, too crazy, and I was like I don't know how I'm able to process that. Our church did say something about it on Sunday and I think that you know there's a lot of takes on that. There's a lot of debate amongst pastor world. Should you or should you not say something about Charlie Kirk? I don't know if you knew that that was a thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I've seen quite quite a bit of that going back and forth online, so I have seen that, yeah, and so on the one hand, you had a lot of communities that had felt really hurt by Charlie Kirk and a lot of his. He's a provocateur.
Speaker 1:I mean, he definitely was you know, you know, prove me wrong, but then and so he had like he had that sort of mentality, but then at the same time he had guys like me. I really appreciated his work and would watch it regularly and really thought he was graceful at sharing the gospel and although he'd come with an ice hat, he was able when he got into a dialogue with somebody. It wasn't personal attack, it was policy, ideology, debate, and I really thought that that was awesome. So I know that there was a lot there and so pastors were kind of in this debate aspect of should we say something, should we not say something? For sure, yeah, and so it was kind of a wild, wild deal. What was your thought on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean generally speaking I think you touched on a lot of points there, but just in regards, for instance as a starting point kind of the way that he opened up his platform yeah, I mean just starting there. You talk about, you know, whether he was doing policy or espousing some sort of ideology. The fact of the matter is that he always did give an opportunity for others of opposing views to come and speak.
Speaker 1:And he gave a mic and a full like 15 minutes to go for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've watched countless videos at this point and I find myself at times struggling to think could I do that? Could I be as gracious as he was during that conversation, when they're berating him and yelling him down.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite ones is when an old guy came up and said I want to duel, I want to fist fight you, yes.
Speaker 2:And he's like no, the Holy Spirit sent me the Holy.
Speaker 1:Spirit, that's right. The Holy Spirit, that's right. The Holy Spirit sent me this by you, which I was like okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think one of the important things to like kind of like sort of wean out of this is the idea of tensions, right, you know we're talking about. You know, should churches get behind this sort of thing? Should pastors? Should they mention it? Should they not? Right? And you know he was a political ideologue and, at the same time, a believer, and so like, where do we draw the line? You know, and I'm a proponent of and this is something I learned, like listening to John Piper all the time he's always talking about man. If you're going to be a Christian, you have to be able to maintain tensions, right? And I think this is one of those moments where this is not a biblical tension, but this is a tension in reality, in life. You know he was a political figure, but he was also a believer and held to Christian values, and so I think there's a place there in the middle where we can say, to a degree, there's things that are acceptable and there's other things that we should probably steer clear of.
Speaker 1:But in regards to, you know, I mean certainly well-wishing his wife and his children and things like that, and pastors acknowledging an event of this size on a global scale, I tend to think there's nothing inappropriate about that, yeah, yeah, and especially since, like I think you know, during the George Floyd things, you had to say something like hey, somebody died and that's sad, and I don't think that police officer woke up that day thinking I'm going to go kill somebody. But you know, ultimately it was a lament towards the death of someone and it was on such a public thing. And one of the things I've sort of learned and maybe I learned this like late in my pastoral, in 20, so like four years in, in 2016, donald Trump was elected and, um, I was like it was also Veterans Day weekend, so that Sunday morning I focused on Veterans Day and I didn't say anything about Trump and I had several people angry I, I mean like just fired up angry at me Like how could you not say anything? Why would you be silent about this? You know this is the worst thing for our country and I was like you know, it's actually not that bad, it's actually pretty great. Uh, you know it's actually not that bad, it's actually pretty great. Yeah, um, yeah and and so that.
Speaker 1:But that was one thing I didn't realize, like how I thought me not saying anything at all was like I don't want to, I don't want to inflame anyone on the left and I don't want to, like um, over exalt him anywhere on the right, and I was like, okay, I think that's the right answer. And um, clearly, that was I mean I, I had, I had some people super angry anyway, uh, and you're not gonna make everybody happy. So what I realized is like saying something is better than saying nothing, and and I, because, like, people want to be led through that and I was like, okay, so next time around 2020,. When Joe Biden was elected, I said, hey, god has the person he wants on the throne. This did not get past his will, and some people feel like this is glorious. Finally, we have somebody of common sense and practicality. Is it going to say anything stupid? On Twitter? And then other people that were just angry Complete opposite Twitter and then other other people that were just like angry and like it was as if the same visceral reaction from 2016. Hence the polarization of politics.
Speaker 1:I just don't know if I've seen people feel this drastically, wildly awful. Maybe this is true, maybe this is the part where that I just haven't been paying attention, um, or I wasn't old enough to figure it out, but I don't know. Like it didn't feel like when George Bush won in 2000,. Like it was like you know, we won the Superbowl. It just like oh cool, you know he, you know he seems like he loves Jesus, that's great. Wasn't as volatile Right, it just wasn't. And Clinton before that, even though there was scandal galore, it was just like all right, yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:So then in 2020, with Biden winning, and then all of a sudden, or sorry, before that, you have the George Floyd stuff, yeah, and we had to say something about that, like, hey, this, you know so. And then to Biden, then again, trump wins. It's like we got to say something, and so I think this is where pastors um it, it's an impossible job, as you know uh, is that you've got to lead people in the congregation, uh, sort of understand, there's everybody at every political spectrum and um, and you want to make sure that people are heard and felt and all the things, except we also have to lead them towards the direction of hope and peace.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely yeah, I agree a hundred percent. And I think there's this kind of and I don't think it's a biblical notion, but there's this concept, um, in in science of Noma, non-overlapping magisteria, right, and it's, you know, we don't overlap the concepts of science and Christianity, right, they don't combine, right, they're not on the same level, that sort of thing, right? So you seek to kind of shift those things apart, this non-overlapping magisteria, and people have the same idea in regards to religion and politics, right. But I would say, man, if you take a hard look at scripture now, I'm not saying the pulpit should ever become a platform for politics, but it's hard for me to look at scripture and not see the marriage, so often, between politics and religious belief, right, and so, whether it was Solomon or David, whether it was Nehemiah, whether, you know, it was John who's talking about Herod, or Jesus talking about the Pharisees, and while they were religious leaders, they were highly involved in politics.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And so there's certainly from a biblical perspective, I think there's plenty of ground to say, hey, it's okay and not inappropriate.
Speaker 1:Right, even what you said about science. I mean science and religion cross all the time when we talk about the way the brain is made or the way that you process emotions. I mean, in fact, this week we talked about, you know, overcoming fear. This next week we're talking about overcoming sadness, and there's a part of it. There's, you know, depression's a thing and real Bible characters experience it, and so, you know, there's a science of the brain. So I think that, no matter what, as a pastor you're going to kind of cross over so many different I don't know if vocation is the right word but disciplines, so many different disciplines that you're. It's not that you need to be knowledgeable about everything, but just understanding that there's going to be something that you're going to say that might offend or affect all these different disciplines, which is why a lot of guys pastors use sports illustrations, because usually they're not offensive.
Speaker 2:But, you know, it's great that you bring that up in regards to disciplines of life and because the reality is, how many times, if you go to a church website and you go to values and missions and they talk about scripture, and they talk about scripture being their ultimate source for truth in all the faith in life, right? Well, if it's for all the faith in life, then surely we should be able to talk about, you know, things that are happening on a global scale, politically right Again to a degree, right, right, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I mean I feel like you know you don't? Yeah, I think so. So here's a question that came up that sparked all this Should a church really be standing behind a man like Charlie Kirk? I know he claims to be a Christian and follows all Christian nationalist talking points to a T, but does he really exhibit Christian fruit? When I look at the latest YouTube videos, they are labeled things like Charlie Kirk hands out L's.
Speaker 1:Charlie Kirk sends someone into a mental breakdown and other things that he is obviously showing disdain to people who don't look like him or believe like him. He obviously likes to be divisive more on political points than Christian points, so it just seems weird to make an Instagram post for him. So, um, yeah, I, if, if, if all Charlie Kirk was was like, was like just a, uh, instagram influencer yeah, we would. He wouldn't be the news. Yeah, we would, he wouldn't be the news. I mean, he's still in the. I mean like he's in. It's a 24 7 news cycle, so I don't think saying nothing is appropriate. Yeah, and now are there some things that charlie kirk may have, may have done. Maybe he was a provocateur. He was like let me, let me, you know, dig you, but the things that you watch, like he did, he had stuff of like watch charlie kirk dismantle this, yeah, and you're like okay, and I sometimes watch his opponent and I watched it.
Speaker 1:I'm like that wasn't actually that crushing, it was actually kind of tame, yeah, should we punish people for clickbait?
Speaker 1:yes, listen, did he clickbait me a million times? Yes, but did I actually enjoy a lot of the stuff he did? Absolutely so, yeah, do I want to punish someone for clickbait? No, everyone's got to make a living somehow. But I think because I think that's where the real problem with him would be is on the clickbait. I thought whenever he talked or spoke it was really well spoken, he was really articulate and I don't like. A lot of times people thought of him as a racist, which I thought was sort of wild, because one of his best friends was like candace owen and I'm not like I'm not all out candace owens fan, I mean, yeah for sure issues, for sure, I mean tons of issues topic for another day.
Speaker 1:I mean, like I feel like she just said something about charlie kirk really wanted to be catholic and I was like okay, I mean, anyway, it's like, why would you even say that? Yeah, uh, but, uh. But clearly we were talking before talking about some of the things that he did for the black community, that it was unique yeah.
Speaker 2:So so, real quick, before I jump into that, I would recommend to uh the questioner or anybody else who's kind of questioning this, this, um, this idea that that charlie kirk may have been racist, um to you know, when you're searching, uh, rather than just just looking at what comes into your feed, you know, can ask questions to search engines, right. So if you're on YouTube, you can say was Charlie Kirk a racist? And you'll see a plethora of videos coming up from his black supporters, his black fan base, right, saying that's crazy, right. Here's why you know. And so some of those videos may be helpful to people who are looking for more answers and maybe wanting to hear as well from a minority group, right, what they thought about it.
Speaker 2:And I say that as a Caucasian man, but I'm Cuban and Mexican, right. And so a lot of times people will be like oh, you're saying that because you're a white guy, right. But I know very well, growing up in a Spanish household with two immigrant parents, what it's like to have, you know, prejudice leveled against you. Wait, but you do, you speak you speak Spanish?
Speaker 2:Yes, I do. Do you also speak Portuguese? I do, I speak Portuguese as well, so I learned. I learned Portuguese dating a girl in a Brazilian church. So that's, but I'll tell you it came to me after a couple of months. It just clicked.
Speaker 1:Okay, wow, that's wild.
Speaker 2:So so yeah. But going back to Charlie Kirk and whether or not he was a racist, a couple of things, like you mentioned his friendship and partnership with Candace Owens, who he traveled literally all 50 states with touring campuses, touring different conference centers, and globally as well for years and years, and his tight friendships with Officer Tatum, who's another guy who speaks very highly of him. No-transcript in our nation's capital's history and it was put together by Charlie Kirk, right, yeah so, whatever you have to say about him, he's not racist.
Speaker 1:I think that would have been super clear. You may disagree with him ideologically, which then gets us to the next point, and here's what the person kind of wrote a subsequent text in. She said nevermind, I prayed about it, and even though the intentional race baiting does lead to a harder life for my children and myself, it makes me not like or respect him. I can't debase, or I can't base my disdain for another Christian over something that is a non-salvation issue, and shouldn't lose respect for another Christian who obviously values the gospel and spreading it, probably better than me, even if he chooses to race bait. And so I don't know about the race baiting per se, although if what you mean is, like you know, throwing out L's and I again the click bait drove me crazy, um, but what I, what I do want to say is uh, is that we're? We see that you're going to have secondary issues.
Speaker 1:I think I put this here. Watch this If I believe that human beings are made in the image of God and that God loves all people, that makes it into a primary issue. Like you've damaged the image of God when you say, like God has a second class of human being, absolutely. I mean, is that okay to put that into the primary issue? I don't want to be overly crazy about it.
Speaker 2:I would still make a distinction between what it looks like. Our questioners ask like salvific issue versus, but I would still say a primary issue. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So it might not be a salvific issue, but maybe a primary issue for, like, being a part of a church or whatever would be like, hey, if you can't wrap your head around God's love for all people and you think like that someone is worth less because of what their skin color, culture, background is, then clearly you are not able to see what Christ has done on the cross and that his value for the humans that he created, and you're not seeing the Imago Dei in people. So I think we would go there. So this is the part I said what place should we draw? And I think the question is, like man, I feel like some of this stuff is problematic for me and I don't know what it like. Let's take it's not the race thing, let's just move off that. Let's say, his position on immigration. Yeah, um, how are Christians to argue and argue, maybe reason? I know argue seems like a strong word, but I feel like you know you have a position, I have a position. Let's argue about it and work it out. Yeah, like, how are Christians supposed to do that in a way in a public square that gets their position heard, without being called a fascist or being murdered for it.
Speaker 1:I think that's the, that's the issue that I feel like uh, has been brought up nationwide and and honestly I feel like recently Pam Bondi, the AG, has you know, they're going to call all the speech of everyone that was sort of against Charlie Kirk or just like hate speech, and I'm like whoa, I mean, this is where I'm like I don't want us to go to this place where we're just like what are we doing Now? I agree that this might be the part. This is a place where you know God and government has a relationship, god and the church has a relationship, god and the family has a relationship. God and the church has a relationship, god and the family has a relationship, and that might be a great place for the church to step in and say, hey, you shouldn't talk like that. But I don't know if that's the. Anyway, I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I haven't heard what she mentioned on this so I'm not familiar with it, but I'm certainly. I'm for less classified speech as hate speech, right, I don't want more of that. I think we should have less of that. But the challenge there becomes, like you mentioned, how can we do that and still remain safe? Right, how can we have these sorts of conversations and dialogues where quote unquote alleged hate speech is being shared and still, you know, be in a place and a position?
Speaker 1:Here's what she said there's free speech and then there's hate speech and there's no place, especially now, in our society. We will absolutely target you, go after you. If you're targeting anyone, if you are targeting anyone with hate speech, anything, and that's across the aisle. And then, after that backlash, she clarified by hate speech she meant speech that crosses the line into threats of violence, which she says is not protected by the first amendment. Well, of course that I agree with that. I agree with that. I agree with. The problem is words have meaning and like look up the dictionary what is the definition of hate speech? And I don't know if we don't have you know. This is why Webster invented I think we were talking about this morning on Bible study. Webster invented the Bible so we'd know what words meant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the dictionary. Yeah, sorry, Sorry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he invented the dictionary so we'd know what words mean. Yes, yeah, anyway, that's where I look at this whole thing and I'm like what is? And I feel like there is no common, universally accepted definition. So therefore you can call anything hate speech and everyone's like, well, that's my definition. Anyway, get into what is a woman, next thing? You know? Okay, so, anyway, so, all right, so we understand there's a difference, so what?
Speaker 1:And I feel like you've really, especially being at Lifeway where you guys have to kind of think through a lot of this stuff. Yeah, because it's not like Christians are monolithic, like they only vote for Republicans, and so there is a part of this. Even talking about Charlie Kirk in any sort of positive way has a negative effect on people. And what is the? You know, what's the Christian response? The right one? I feel like here's the part that's hard. What's the right Christian response when someone's coming at it like you're supporting, like a, a person who hates immigrants, or you know, your person hates people, you know, and you may think it's right, wrong or indifferent, but they're coming with such strong language and now, all of a sudden, it's a polemic and I think there's a place for a logical debate between believers. Understand that there's a love for one another. That's understood. But I think what happens a lot of time? We don't have that. Where do you think the line is drawn on how we do that? Well, the line is drawn on how we do that.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I think, for me, the line, I think that the line is drawn in regards to not allowing fear to be the motivation for what to stop. Right, right, like I think that you know. If so, there's a component of truth, right, I always want to be conveying truth, at least to the best of my ability. But the other part is, I think that if I'm ever feeling prohibited or inhibited from sharing a truth because I'm scared of what the repercussion might be, right, oh well, you know, if you do that, you'll lose this many followers, or, you know, people will stop coming to your restaurant, that sort of thing.
Speaker 2:I go back to what is it? Martin Luther, I think the whole here I stand, you know, like that sort of thing. I think as Christians, we have to be able to take a stance on things that are true, right, and I think that, whatever the cost for that is and I think Charlie was doing that I think that's actually going back to Charlie. You know he was taking a stance. You know, despite the obvious dangers that were present in him doing so, I'm putting aside his political views, just doing what he was doing when he was espousing Christian views on campuses, primarily very liberal campuses. He was putting himself in a place of danger, but he determined that, hey, I'm going to take a stand for what's true and share that without fear, and so I think, as Christians, that's something we should be doing as well.
Speaker 1:So here's kind of the pushback I'm seeing. It goes something like this how can you stand up for one man, charlie Kirk, when you're not standing up for all the genocide in the Gaza? And I think that becomes a soup in like. Why, really? A lot of like. There's all these things happening globally. Yeah, you're not saying anything about that. But why are you saying something about? I mean, at least that's what I've been seeing Like that was one of the ones that popped up or why, why, you don't care about the.
Speaker 1:There was a governor. That was a Minnesota, not governor. It was, um, I think their state shoot speaker of the house or something. Minnesota though, right, yeah, minnesota's like state government lady. That, which is terrible. I don't know her name. She was killed, right, she was murdered.
Speaker 1:She was essentially assassinated for her political views, and that's you know. I didn't even know that until the Charlie Kirk thing came up to be fair. And you know it's not my newsfeed. It might be, because you know guess where my newsfeed is. You know it's the echo chamber of all the stuff I want to hear, which is, you know, not great, but it is what it is, and so clearly we need to kind of that's wrong. You should not murder somebody because they have a different view than you. In fact, even if they have a different view, let the government handle that. Like you, don't need to take this vigilante justice. Even if you think that person did something that deserved death, well, even then, you've got to let the government handle it. The king doesn't bear the sword for nothing, it's his to bear.
Speaker 2:Absolutely For something like see, I've been hearing this a lot and I really try my best to go towards and lean into simple, plain, understandable responses. Right, everything doesn't have to be hyper-politicized. Right, and so she was a politician, she was assassinated, right. Right Now is it super complex to understand the difference between what happened to her and what happened to Charlie? Personally, I don't think so, right, from what you're saying right now. Right, out of sight is out of mind. Yeah, that's not a theological premise, that's not a political premise, that's just a common sense thing. I've never seen her before, I've never heard her. I'm devastated. I hate to hear that she was killed.
Speaker 2:That's horrid, right, but Charlie Kirk was somebody I heard. I followed his career for eight years. I saw his star rise. Right, I was also invested in his positions. Right, and so all of these things lend themselves to, individually, to me having a greater response to what happened to Charlie than to her. Now, when you multiply that by millions of people who had the same experience as I did, right, in regards to those two individuals, it's not, it's not challenging to understand why there wasn't such an uproar. That's not to say of, that's not a value statement, that her life was worth less at all. That's not a value proposition, that's just a a simple, you know, common sense. Hey, like this individual wasn't in the limelight.
Speaker 1:So Melissa Horbin, that's who it was, melissa Horbin. She was murdered on June 14th, which it's wild, I mean sad in some ways right, but she didn't have the. I'm sure you know there's probably murders that happen every day and each human life is individually valuable, and that is absolutely wrong. It is killing the Imago Dei, which that's how God chose to represent himself on the planet. It was like I mark my territory with human beings and when you slay one of those, it's like erasing a tag from the gang, like you have done irreparable damage and your life is required of that. If you murder somebody, which is sort of wild, okay, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, go ahead. A simple thought experience for anybody who's watching to do is just to just consider your own parents yeah, a sibling. Right, how you feel if you lose a sibling. You get news that your brother, your sister, your cousin, your aunt, your uncle has passed away, someone that you were close to. It's devastating. If you hear news about someone in a foreign country, far off in a way that you have no idea about the cousin, uncle, aunt of somebody else, you're not going to feel the same way, right, and so it's on just a simple premise. It's that easy to understand. Obviously it more complex because there's there's added components to it, but I think it's. You know, when we begin to break it down like that, it becomes a little easier to comprehend.
Speaker 1:Um, okay, so I think we hammered that, but I think there's so much politically, globally. I mean, we could talk tariffs and how. What does you know? What does Jesus say about that? You know, I mean, I don't really. You know, this is where the government has its own autonomy, in some ways to govern as it sees fit on stuff like tariffs and what's the best thing for our country? You know, interest rates, what's the best?
Speaker 1:thing Fed's cut rates yeah right, yeah, quarter point cut today. Thank you, uh, drum pal, something you know like. So I think there, there's, there's, there's, that, that's like there's so much going on. I think what was hard for me in 2020 is it felt like every day there was a new crisis, yeah, and and then I would. I would be criticized for not reacting fast enough, but then I'd react and I'd find out more information.
Speaker 1:That wasn't exactly like what I thought it was, yeah, and that became such a um, I just felt like a slingshot, just a pendulum, just super fast, just not knowing how to handle each and everything. And I feel like, honestly I think I've said this before I was not prepared theologically for the anthropological arguments of, like, what's my argument about man race, uh, gender? Yeah, I think I I'd done a good job of understanding um on my own, like sexuality and homosexuality, and I I was able to articulate that very well. I felt good about that. But when it came to 2020, I think I was weak on understanding a logical understanding of how human beings are made in the image of God and how to punish one set of humans for the pain of another was just sort of an off thing to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that, that honestly, it wouldn't be off biblically, if you kind of say, like you know, I will. They will pay for their sins, for the to the third and fourth generation, but I'll show my love to the thousandth generation. However, when we get to Ezekiel, that shifts and you see that each man will die for his own sin. Yeah, shifts and you see that each man will die for his own sin, which is sort of an interesting shift theologically, anthropologically, because as you look at man, how are they to take on sin and how do they pass it forward? And are you now responsible for the sins of your forefathers? And what we've clearly seen is like no, you aren't. Would, would you agree with that?
Speaker 1:I would agree a hundred percent with that, and I don't think I, I don't think I was prepared Again, that that came from a lot of reading. I think Votie Bauckham was one of the guys I read. That would just really help me. I also read all the other stuff of what was a crazy one, that um gosh, uh, that, uh, fragile fragile white fragility, white fragile.
Speaker 1:I read white fragility and then I did a lot of Ibrahim Kendi, read all his stuff, and I was like, um, it helped see that there was, there wasn't a biblical bias, it was just a oppressed oppressor, yeah, and it was a regurgitation of a Marxist doctrine, which I wasn't. I don't know if I would have been able to see that prior to that, but I was like, oh, you've just put everybody in this class and they have to be in constant repentance for their existing because of what they look like. And that, to me, was like isn't that exactly what we want to get away from? Yeah, all right. So I know we probably went way down a rabbit hole and probably people tuned out by now. Okay, but I do want to say, like, whenever, like if you are in a political minority in a church I don't know if that's if, like, your pastor is more bent to the right or if he's more bent to the left and he says something that you don't agree with, I think that's a great time to have the conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely I think. So. One of the things you pointed out earlier was just the when you were, when the 2020, I think you were saying you were just getting bombarded weekly. I mean, all of us were, we were just. You know, we're having questions every week and while we mentioned at the onset of the conversation that, I think we both agreed that, yes, these are things that the pastors should engage, should talk about. I don't think there's any question there. I think the question is you know, how do we determine which things to talk about? Because, honestly, like you're saying, if we're paying attention to the media and to the things going on around us, there's no lack of new things being poured in every day that we can address right, and so, like, I'll toss that back to you and I'll say you know, when pastors are being bombarded leaders so often church leaders by different things that are coming in, how do you distinguish? Yeah, I think that's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like I so. For example, I know this is terrible. I don't. I know this is terrible. I don't think I even really knew about the Colorado shooting Okay, like I think that was happened just before this and the stabbing on the New York the train.
Speaker 2:North Carolina, north Carolina.
Speaker 1:See, I didn't even know that happened. So, like, that's where I'm to be caught up on everything. In fact, I I'm to be caught up on everything. In fact, I think Charlie Kirk was actually calling for pastors to mention the Ukrainian woman and her story on Sunday mornings, and I'm not sure what his call to action was, but I know that he said something and I missed that one, and so at some point I've become okay with not being attached to my phone to stare at, to get updates all the time. In fact, um, you know that social was it called the social network or something like that was like, um, not the one about how facebook was invented, but the one about the documentary about, like, how the algorithms work. No, I'm not all right, so they're. Essentially, this documentary goes the algorithms work to kind of make you you're the customer and you're going to repeat and they're going to try and get you to. You know, do their?
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, I, I, I think I do remember, so, so I after I saw that I intentionally went and messed up my algorithm, so I don't know anybody on my Facebook.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:How'd it work out? It worked out great. I don't know anything. It's like it's just a bunch of random people I don't care about. So I put it down and every now and then I'll post something like I care about and I'll go into it, but like I don. If it comes to me two or three times, then I'm probably like yeah, or if it's something I already genuinely already know about a lot of us, I just didn't know like yeah, the Colorado there's.
Speaker 1:I hate to say, math shootings have become so commonplace, but I think it it was a shooting and I just didn't get the details. I heard there was a shooting. I wasn't really sure it was a shooting that already happened. It't get the details. I heard there was a shooting. I wasn't really sure it was a shooting that already happened. It's almost regurgitating, but anyway, that was.
Speaker 1:I think that's the problem. There's so much that that give your pastor grace on what he knows doesn't know a whole story At the same time, you don't need to send him, you don't need to do the research for him, because that gets really annoying, although I appreciate that you work so hard. Okay, but yeah, I think we covered that. All right, we're going to shift here to something not intense, a little less serious. Yeah, all right, everyone just chill out for a sec. All right, this is from another person. I thought it'd be fun to have a couple's conversation about Hollywood crushes. Is it okay to have them? Why or why not? Uh, my boyfriend and I had this conversation and we have different opinions on this topic.
Speaker 2:I'd love to hear what you think. Yeah, the topic of crushes. So I think we I I don't know if it was today or last week, but, um, I think it was this morning. Actually, we're talking about defining terms.
Speaker 1:You probably had brought up Webster right, yeah, webster's Dictionary, not Webster's Bible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I think that, to get to even like start this conversation, let's just like define what a crush is right, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, let's see what you pull up there. Hold on, I did pull it up, let me see if I can find it here. Okay, here we go. Crush Intense. Yeah, this is okay, all right. First, is it admiration or idolatry? All right, it's natural to admire someone's beauty, talent or charisma. But if a crush is idolatry, placing that person to a place of worship or ultimate devotion or obsession, who dominates your thoughts and desires? Or or is it a fantasy? Like I get a hall pass, if I ever, you know, if I ever meet my, my celebrity, uh, I get to, you know, have a night with them, and that is your gift to me, cause that'll probably never happen, but just in case it does, I don't want to ever give a what, if right, it's wild, okay uh, hubris.
Speaker 2:In that I mean just the notion that, like, even if you met your celebrity crush that they would want to spend a night with you. It's so ridiculous.
Speaker 1:It's like hey, you know what I'm gonna you right there in the 80th row. Yeah, come on. Yeah so, or yeah so. I think that's where we're going. Yeah, and I think the problem with crush is that we all have different ones. Yeah, yeah so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So when I think of crush, I tend to think of an infatuation.
Speaker 1:Right, there's a certain infatuation, and it's I use that term because when I think of infatuation, there's a sort of unrational, unreasonable attachment, right, this sort of obsessing over, and so they're idealized right, exactly, yes, I mean, once you've kind of gone on a road trip with them, once you've lost your bags, then stuck in an airport with them and everyone's kind of crabby, the idealistic version is out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that honeymoon phase, right, the fork notion of what you think about. And I think actually the Bible provides us a couple of examples of that right. So the first one I would say is I think it's 2 Samuel, right. We, I would say is I think it's second Samuel, right, we have Amnon and Tamar, yeah, right. And then he's just like he sees her and he's like, he's like I got it, it's wild.
Speaker 1:It's a sister. It's a sister, yeah Half sister, but granted still sister Exactly.
Speaker 2:So you know he's, he's has what we'd call a crush right, he's unreasonably to her, he finds her desirable and uh, and and that results in what it results in, in raping her, right. And so you can quickly see how, uh, you can go from a crush into. You know he's fantasizing about, about being with her. They're plotting oh, how do we, how do we get her into bed with you?
Speaker 1:right, him and his friend are plotting together it's wild that his buddy comes to help him out. Yeah, here's what you do, I know right. And you, and you're like, you are not a friend, you're a psychopath. Now, to be fair, maybe life was pretty boring in the palace and they're like hey, I'm in the palace, I need to stir some stuff up, let's go.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that to me is that story has always been repulsive in one sense, but very eye-opening too, because you find is, after he, he ends up succeeding in this, in this really disgusting plan, right, uh, it says the what that he, he looks at her and he hates her he hates her more than he loved her more than he loved her. Like what?
Speaker 1:yes, what a weird story. It's so crazy. Okay, so all right, so let's, let's talk about this. So like if you have, if you and your boyfriend have a crush, this, so like if you have, if you and your boyfriend have a crush, and I mean a celebrity crush, and it's like if I have the chance to get with uh, name the person and you are alone with them after a show, at, at whatever, are you gonna say? I mean, do you even have that conversation? Just takes down a dark place. So, no, that's not. If that's what you mean, no, yeah, can you have a favorite actor? Sure, you can have a favorite actor, a favorite athlete.
Speaker 1:You know someone you enjoy watching some of the you know like, even like political or pastoral or scientific or business. Like you know there's still you know he's gone out like, okay, go tim cook. All right, the current apple ceo you could like I really admire how smart and whatever he is, um, or elon musk you know, we man, elon musk, he's amazing. Like I think there's some cool things there, but when you obsess about him and whatever elon says becomes like you write it on your wall and you're like elon said, therefore, I do, I mean, I think that becomes problematic and I think that same kind of thing with a celebrity crush, of like that's my girl or that's my guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's weird. Yeah, I think so too, I think I think that. So I think, before you even reach the point of celebrity crush, let's say you're crushing on somebody in person. Yeah, yeah, right, I think that you know. If we're defining it in a certain sense as an unreasonable attachment, I do think that you can go from an unreasonable attachment to reasonable. I do think that if, like, you just meet somebody and the first day you're like, you go home and you're just enamored, you're like oh my gosh, you know, he's so cute, she's so cute, you know whatever that is. And then later, as you get to know them, you start developing hey, there's real connection here. It's no longer unreasonable to feel the way that you feel, right, and so you can move from a sort of initial infatuation to a healthy romantic love or affection or admiration for somebody based on real things that you now have in common. Right, maybe. But if that doesn't happen and it stays in that area of like, well, I still, I don't even talk to them, right'm just thinking about. I go home and I dream about him after church, right? Or I dream about her. You know, I think that's where it becomes a slippery slope when you move to the place of celebrity crush. I think it's almost immediately gets there.
Speaker 2:Remember hearing a, a sermon or a talk. Once a guy was asking a question you know, kids cover, kids cover your ears about. Hey, I travel a lot. I bring a picture of my wife and you know, I use that to imagine and pleasure myself, right, is that appropriate? Is that okay as a Christian? And the response was I thought was great and ultimately came down to you know, your wife, when she's in your presence is, is the subject of your affection and your love. That's good. That image is the object. Oh, I like that, right. And so now it's a great way to look at it. It's gone from subject to object. That's idolatry.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, you know. And so I think the celebrity question, I mean, like those, those people are really not the subject of your affection, right? You only see images and pictures of them. You don't even know who they are, you just hear stories. And now, all of a sudden, you're giving affection, admiration, love even to an object. Right Now you've gone from, you slipped from what you think is a crush or an infatuation, and that's idolatry. Right Now you're giving affection and admiration to something that they can't give it back, right. So so it's a very I think it's very slippery slope. Uh, you, I would be cautious with that. I certainly wouldn't encourage crushes. I know some couples do that. We're so comfortable, I'm so, yeah, he talks about how much he loves so and so and she talks about not something I would recommend.
Speaker 1:I just don't I just don't think and maybe this is just me that if my wife was talking, I'm just gonna go with Ryan Reynolds alright, just throwing him out. If she's talking about Ryan Reynolds and like how much she has a crush on him, I don't. What does that?
Speaker 2:do for me?
Speaker 1:I don't think that, and thank god she doesn't, but I don't think that would honor me. I don't think that would. It's just that's where I go, and maybe this is me being too careful, but I don't think so. I think this just leaves room for a lot of darkness and, uh, like, let's say, I get comparison issues now. So I'm like, oh, I'm never enough and I gotta get the gym way more. I got cut weight or, yeah, start wearing Deadpool suits or whatever you know. Yeah, just like, what's my? You know, eventually I'm going to start.
Speaker 1:If it means that much to her, yeah, that's going to have an effect on me. Yeah, for sure. On the other hand, like, I think there it's a wise place to say like, hey, a wise place to say like, hey, I have these feelings and help me process them, because then also, when you keep stuff in the dark, it kind of festers. But if you can say like, but I don't think it took glory in like, I'm just obsessing about Ryan Reynolds, there's no net gain, there's no net gain. But hey, I'm struggling because I really I don't know, I've been thinking about Ryan Reynolds a lot. Okay, let's pray about that. I think that gets us to a place of health, as opposed to a place of like glorying in your fantasy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, for sure, and I do think that, like you said, I think when you putting even, let's say, if somebody is insecure, I don't think you're an insecure guy, but if you are struggling with insecurity, putting that aside, well, there's no net positive, right, right, right, yeah, yeah and doing something, yeah, even if, even if that like because I I could probably see myself being like whatever, but knowing that that doesn't do good for her heart, yeah, that would not do well for her heart. Yeah what's being fostered there?
Speaker 1:yeah, in her heart, yeah because then you know, maybe there is a guy that looks a little bit more like ryan reynolds, yeah, and you know, maybe I can't have Ryan, I can get the lookalike guy and you know there's a. There's a lot there. I just think that overall, I don't know what the debate is at at this particular relationship. I'm just going to say, whoever's on the side of not doing the relationship crush, you are far wiser and you get full credit from our yeah, yeah and, and you get full credit from our contest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think, even on that note, just thinking of going back to the idea of idolatry and affections and admirations, like shouldn't those be going to your current girlfriend, your current spouse, right? Why would you divide that? There's a proverb that talks about you know, don't drink from anybody else's fountain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's Proverbs 5. Keep to your own cisterns and drink from your own. Well, exactly. And like don't let your fountains spray all over the place. Exactly, yeah, you gotta love the sexual euphemisms of the Proverbs. Yeah, I really feel like that's an important thing. And now, grant, even if you're not married I don't know if that's like the standard. Your celebrity crush is your standard of what your future spouse is going to be, and that's going to be a huge letdown. Yeah, or maybe an upgrade, who knows? It just depends on where you go. But I feel like that's the part where we're just getting into fantasy, and fantasy doesn't really help reality. Yeah, I agree, man, we went through a whole lot of stuff today.
Speaker 1:We did, we did all over the place. Man, hey, if you have any questions, would you text us at 737-231-0605 or go to pastorplekcom? We'd love to hear from you. We talk faith, we talk culture, everything in between. Thanks, ruben, for joining me. Man, it's a pleasure to always talk to you, such a smart, esteemed guy, guys, well read and well newsed. Hey, thanks so much for watching. We'll see you next time. Have an awesome week. I love you.