Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Courts, Conscience, And The Clash Of Ideas
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A Supreme Court fight, a crisis of conscience, and a hard look at justice—this conversation moves fast and cuts deep. We open with Colorado’s ban on conversion therapy for minors and why the 10th Circuit’s framing of “harmful professional conduct” raises alarms for counselors who practice faith-informed talk therapy. Where does protected speech end and regulated treatment begin? We unpack why the distinction matters for pastors, parents, and practitioners who want to teach biblical sexual ethics without tripping legal wires.
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And welcome back to Pastor Plex Podcast. I'm your host, Pastor Plex, along with none other than Pastor Holland Gregg. We are talking faith, culture, and everything in between. Hot off the presses today is oral arguments being heard in the Supreme Court over, I guess it's Kaylee Chiles. And uh, she's a licensed professional counselor in Colorado Springs, Colorado, is at the center of a high-profile legal battle over the state's ban on conversion therapy. In 2019, she um or 2019, Colorado enacted a law prohibiting licensed mental health providers from offering conversion therapy. Now, I guess that's a practice aimed at changing a minor's sexual orientation or gender identity, which is to anyone under 18. And violators could face fines up to$5,000 or lose their license. So Child's described her approach as faith-informed counseling to help her clients align with their biological sex or reduce unwanted attractions, meaning like attracted to the same sex. And so she sued in federal court in 2019 to block enforcement of the ban against her, claiming it violates her First Amendment rights. So this guy, the 10th Circuit of Appeals, uh, I guess it's the 10th Circuit, uh, you know, and that's where they kind of go around. 10th U.S. Circuit of Appeals upheld the ban, saying, like, yep, you can ban that. And it was viewing as a regulation of harmful professional medical conduct, which is sort of wild, which is wild, that you would then sort of regulate um thinking as medical. Yeah, that is interesting. Uh, which to me, I mean, if you follow that all the way through, of which I actually sort of appreciate there is some religious overtones to that, that what you think about is a violation. If I tell you to think the wrong things, to violate perhaps your conscience of what you believe. Because couldn't that go both ways? Yeah. Anyway, so it's it's interesting. That's what uh the Supreme Court is currently hearing arguments. There is a 6'3 conservative to liberal advantage in the Supreme Court. So striking down this ban seems like it will happen. Wow. Um, but talk to me, Holland, about like when I first brought this up to you, you're like, I'm not even sure if I'm okay with conversion therapy. And why was that?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I I think more of just like, what are they calling? What do they mean by that? Because it sounds like what she's saying is I want to be able, if if I'm counseling someone and they're saying I'm attracted to the same sex, I want to be able to tell them that's not right. You should be, you know, you're God created male and female, and this is what marriage is, this is the proper context for sexual desire and intimacy and all that is within God's design for marriage. And she wants to be able to tell people that, which is the truth, right? But if they would consider that conversion therapy, essentially just teaching what the Bible says about sex and yeah, desire and all that, um, then yeah, she should not be prevented from doing that. She should be able to freely say the truth.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And I think there's all throughout um history, I'm gonna go like I I think from 1960s forward, we wanted to align our reality to our fantasy. So we we felt like we were being mistreated, and so we wanted all of the culture to then align with our mistreatment and then sort of align itself to us, is kind of what the from the 1960s forward. So um let me try and explain this. So it let's just go with I think my body should align to the fantasy in my mind of I think I'm a woman or the opposite gender. And so my whole life is then now I'm gonna spend the rest of my life aligning my body to my fantasy. Gotcha. And I think before that, all of life was about aligning our mind to reality. Yeah. Like, like even going back to like stoicism, it was like beyond a Christian worldview, it was life is hard, and you've got to steal your mind to prepare for how hard it is. Yeah. And I think our culture has said, or you know, and I'm not just saying American culture, I think this is like almost worldwide at this point.
SPEAKER_01:Modern and postmodern culture.
SPEAKER_00:You mean right, right? It's been like a I want to align to the fantasy I deserve, and I should have all of you know, I'm gonna live in my free speech zone, or sorry, hate hate speech or whatever. I can't hear anything that might trigger me. And so I need to be away from the reality of your words because they could hurt my soul, and so I need to be protected from all of the world, which is sort of aligning our feeling, or rather, aligning the world to our feelings, and which is sort of the opposite sort of viewpoint of for from all history past. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's it's a self-destructive way of thinking, too, because you know, you're you're not aligning to some objective standard that is right, uh, you know, that the way that God created the world, you're trying to align everyone else to something that you made up in your head, and uh that'll destroy you and a society.
SPEAKER_00:So when we look at, and and this is where when you look at all of just the mental health issues that seem to have like out of nowhere, and we could probably blame phones and we could blame shows and video games, which I think there's probably some good reason to blame that. But I think ultimately it's because we've sort of taught our culture you can be anything you want to be. And if someone tells you no, they're wrong. Yeah. And I feel like it's we should be sort of saying, no, no, actually, there's reality that you have to conform your mind to, which is obviously what Romans 12 says. Yeah. Um be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And I think that's the part that in in our culture we have gotten away from. And I think this case, which I'm grateful that I think they're gonna strike down that ban and you know, let freedom ring. But I think that's just the postmodern reality that we're sort of dealing with across, and I think it can invade Christian circles a little bit. Um we just don't recognize it as that sort of mentality of like, I wanna, I want my world to conform to my fantasy. I think maybe that's the name it and claim it type stuff that we've sort of like the world, because I've made this deal with God, he has to obey my my whim or my fantasy or whatever my thing is. If I have enough faith, then it has to be willed into existence. As opposed to I want to do whatever God's will is, that's the objective standard. I want to align my life to that. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. All right, that might be enough on all that. Uh any other thoughts in that department? No, I'm and I I hadn't heard of it until you just brought it up just now. So you know, like we listen, breaking news hits here first. All right. This is also a follow-up. We we had a question a while back about how does one foster a spirit of gentleness on a foundation of strength versus becoming gentle from a place of weakness or fear of man, which in my opinion, y'all may both disagree, but it's cowardice masquerading as being gentle and kind. Would appreciate y'all going to tangible things a person can do in order to grow uh this foundation versus the obvious found it uh the to most found it on Christ and his strength. Uh so we we did tackle that question, but he did not like our question, our response. He goes, Here's a follow-up to your answer on building gentleness through strength. I'm not thumbs down on founded in Christ and his strength, which is apparently how we answer that. But when those of the church attempt to call out wickedness with righteous anger, they usually are shouted down from many in the church to just pray for the wicked, and it's never acceptable to try and punish those who do grave sin. For example, this most recent weekend of the stabbing that took place on a public transportation by a man who has 14 different mugshots, still being allowed out of jail. At what point does the righteous act become a last presentation of the gospel to him and a swift execution, preventing him, who, according to Romans 13 or Romans 1, has had his conscience seared and given to complete evil, no longer to kill another person? Meaning this guy's been given over to his sin, he can know nothing other than death and killing and murder. Because they even suggest a punishment in modern times receives major backlash from within the church body as not being kind or gentle enough and not following the examples Christ gave. We'll be curious both of your opinions of whether it is right and just to kill people like this and what a Christian's role is if those who have been given the sword by God, aka the government, refuse to use it uh justly. Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Um, what do you got to say to that, Holland? Okay, so this is from a few weeks back when um I think it was that the girl who got murdered. Yeah, Ukrainian um woman was murdered on the train or subway or whatever. And um he's saying is his question is those who express righteous anger about that get like shushed by the church? Is that what he's saying?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Or maybe the or about wanting to do something about it.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right. Like let's the proper response. What's should the church like, I guess we could have like the temple guard, and we just like when someone isn't justly killed, we send out the temple guard, they you know, assassinate the murderers that take people out. Yeah. Um I don't think that's the right answer. Like, I think up front, I would say I appreciate your anger because I think that's the righteous response. Um, however, I do feel like because I think the person describing um De Carlos Brown, a 32-year-old with at least 14 prior arrests, and he's the guy that stabbed a 23-year-old. And as he after he stabbed her, he goes, I just stabbed that white girl. He just kind of was walking away from her, just kind of wow. And then nobody, and everyone, he just walked through the subway and everyone just like watched him go, no one did anything.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So, okay, a couple of things that come to mind for me. Um, is Ecclesiastes 811. Um, when the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, people's hearts are filled with schemes to do wrong. Right. So you have this principle, this reality that if people see in society you can get away with doing something evil, then it does draw out in people, um, okay, well, then, you know, why I'm gonna do something evil then, you know, uh people who would be tempted to do it but would stop out of fear of justice don't have anything stopping them anymore. Right. So then that that leads to, you know, a society where innocent people who want to do good are fearful for their lives because they go, so no one's gonna stop someone from doing evil. So one, I think it's important, he does bring up Romans 13, God has entrusted the sword to the government, uh, meaning that they have the right to punish evil. That's what they're commanded to do, Romans 13, including, you know, an up to death penalty. Right. Um, and so the it sounds like he's asking, well, what if the government's not doing that? Because I would say our government, our American government is not doing that right now in um a lot of cases where you know someone gets off easy, they do some heinous crime um and you know, do do some jail time and then they're back on the streets. And so his question is, well, then do we take things into our our own hands, right? That's the question. So I I think Romans 12, you know, Romans 12 comes right before Romans 13. Romans 12 says, Repay no one evil for evil. Um, it says, Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God. For it is written, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. Um and then in uh chapter 13, a few verses later, that's where it says, Um, uh, whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Um, it says that he's God, the government is God's servant. Um, he does not bear the sword in vain. He's the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. So there's a connection. Romans 12 is saying, don't avenge yourselves, um, leave it to the wrath of God. And then you go, well, you know, who's gonna carry out justice then? And Romans 13 answers it. Well, the government's supposed to. Um that it literally says they carry out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. And so I think when the government's not doing that, it doesn't mean we take it into our own hands, but rather it means we speak prophetically to the culture, to the government. We call government to and in a place like America where we can actually vote for our represent representatives and we can change the policies of the land that we live in. We need to actively work toward that reform in the justice system. Yeah, and I think that's you speak truth to power.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So, you know, Amos five, uh let justice roll uh like uh a river, a mighty river. Like I think that the the call to in like you know, Amos was just a shepherd, he's calling he's a prophet calling the government to do the right thing, to punish evil. And I think what happens with us, I think, you know, inevitably, evil is not always prevented, evil is not always justly punished. Uh, and so you have an imperf on this side of heaven, you have an imperfect justice system. And however, that doesn't mean you throw out the whole system, right? That that doesn't mean like because this is like advocating, like his question is like, at what point is vigilante justice the right answer? And I'm like, never. I don't like as much as I love Batman, like there's a reason why the police in Gotham were trying to arrest Batman just as much as they were trying to arrest everybody else, because if everybody's taking justice in their own hands without proper um, without a trial, without a judge, without a jury, then all of a sudden you're playing one person is playing judge, jury, and executioner. Yeah, and that leads to a society that is chaotic and anarchist. And although you might be gratified in the in the death of the wicked, um how many times is that gonna miss? And how many times are you gonna assume someone is I mean, shoot, the government now um has in the past, you know, roughly um 20 years convicted about you know 200 people of capital crimes uh that they didn't commit. Now, there's that's 4%. 4%. So even the government gets it wrong. Even the government has all these trained people that are not trying to just, you know, that have objective objectivity, even they get it wrong about 4% of the time. So, how about how is you know regular Joe living their life as you know, working at Google? They see some atrocity happen, they're like, I'm gonna go and kill that guy, and they don't know the full story, they take revenge, they kill that guy, and it was actually wasn't that guy, it was somebody else. And I get it. We have video footage, we have proof, yeah. But let the justice system work, and then when it doesn't work, I think what happened though wasn't um didn't North Carolina pass like Irina's law or something uh to you know really take out violent offenders from the public spaces. Anyway, the laws are usually passed after really awful things happen to prevent those things from happening again.
SPEAKER_01:Um but and bad laws existed that allowed it to happen, I think is part of what he was saying too, of like, you know, you have you have um civil authorities who are saying things like, no, you know, we can't do the death penalty because, you know, um you don't understand, you know, where they came from and what they experienced. And it's like, you know, it's the stuff that appeals to um compassion, you know, of like the the reason they're doing these horrible things is because, you know, maybe they they had a really horrible upbringing or something like that. And like there's a part of me that that really resonates with me of wanting redemption for people, you know. At the same time, if you don't punish the wicked, your society, you know, so this guy he had like what 14, what did he say? He 14 mugshots or something like that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that were all over the place. Like this guy had um, where is this question? He had yeah, his mugshot was all over the place in 14 different 14 different mugshots still being allowed out of jail, meaning he was arrested 14 different times.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. If if if the way you've set up your justice system allows someone to, you know, just keep doing these horrible crimes over and over, and they never um and you know, all they get is like a a measly punishment or whatever, then your justice system really screws over the innocent people, it doesn't protect anyone. And so you need laws that are going to and it's going to feel harsh and not compassionate to some, but that is really what like a magistrate, a an authority has to be to bear the sword is is a harsh thing, but it's for the sake of protecting the innocent. Um yeah, so you need you need laws and you need um justices who are willing to enforce justice. And um yeah, I think that doesn't sit right with a lot of Christians. Um, but it is there's uh if you would read like the again, I I go back to these a lot, but like Westminster Confession of uh uh shorter catechism, longer catechism that talk about the roles and duties of civil magistrates, it's gonna say they have a duty to punish evil with the sword, otherwise, um your society will fall apart, people won't feel safe, the innocent will suffer, um, and the wicked will prosper. So you've got to have a state government ready and willing to actually enforce justice and punish evil.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I think that's I think that's what we're saying. And then if you don't, you speak truth to power, yeah, just like all the prophets of old did. And and what happened to some of those prophets? Some were beaten, some were killed. Yeah. Uh poor Jeremiah was the weeping prophet because he, you know, he's the one that's saying, like, hey guys, you guys are missing it. Babylon's taking over. Shut up. I want you to prophesy something good. Uh and and you know, he gets beaten down for it. Um, and so there is a risk at speaking truth to power, but I don't think the answer is going on a vigilante like justice.
SPEAKER_01:No, but especially because we have avenues. We we don't just have like a monarch where you need a prophet to speak truth to power, and that's your only option. Is you we actually have avenues to change laws that are within our power as citizens. We can vote for stuff, we can elect representatives who have a right view of justice. So, like we have the ability to actually change things more than just speak, like we have the power, honestly. Like, we are we have the power um to elect the people and vote for the policies that can change things, right?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, all right. That I think we settled that. Like, so the answer just if you're listening, you know, vigilante justice, we're thumbs down on it, although it makes for cool movies. Um but we are for vote and pray and speak truth to power. Amen. Okay, all right. Here's the next one. So this is on the book of Enoch. Okay. Are you ready? When was the last time you read the book of Enoch?
SPEAKER_01:Uh in seminary.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. A long time ago. Long time ago. I've noticed the book of Enoch is a cultural hop topic once again. Um, I'm actually part of a Facebook group called the Book of Enoch. And I love to see the questions that rage in there. Man. And it goes, I didn't get in on this. Is this something that has benefit for Christians to read as a non-authoritative text? Which I really appreciate. Uh, this person asks to read as a non-authoritative text. We all understand that this is not a book within the canon. However, it's referenced a couple times um in the New Testament. Enoch uh is referenced in Jude 1, 14 and 15, uh, which quotes a prophecy from Enoch about divine judgment. Uh, then there is um, I think 2 Peter 2, uh, where fallen angels in chains, and then maybe Revelation 20, 13, there's like an abyss imagery that shares apocalyptic language uh from the book of Enoch as well. All right, so what do you think about this? Especially also, this gets into one of my favorite topics. Nephilim?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know what? We should have brought this up back on the Michael Heiser episode.
SPEAKER_00:Did you know that's one of the most popular podcasts that Pastor Plex podcast has ever produced?
SPEAKER_01:Man, I feel like we need to follow. I I don't know if we quite did it justice when we we need to be a good one. It was almost a two-hour podcast. That was a long one. It was. But that's really interesting. So I'm not in any Book of Enoch Facebook groups. So I'll let you kind of take the lead on this one.
SPEAKER_00:Listen, I love it because it does get into the Nephilim, it gets into the watchers who are like the rebellious angels and their consequences. Uh, it gets into um New Testament teachings on demons, exorcisms, yeah, it uh about like spiritual warfare against unseen powers. Uh so for Christians, this can foster a richer appreciation of biblical warnings about evil forces, encouraging prayer and reliance on Christ while highlighting God's ultimate sovereignty over the spiritual realm. It's I guess part of it, I don't want to say any of it's fictionalized, but it's just not authoritative. It's not canon. So not every word is absolute truth with God. So I just would say be careful. Um, but I think it's really I want Christians to read it. Yeah, but I do I think it'd be great to read. I mean, we were at the seminary. So, what what is the value that you think it has? I don't know. It gives me a greater view of the more accepted worldview of the demonic and spiritual forces that are at battle. That I feel like in our modern, postmodern culture, we've become materialists. We've kind of said the only thing that exists is that which you can see. And so, therefore, all these invisible powers and whatnots, um, those are just science fiction, and we need to kind of get more into reality. And I think that's where I feel like even just for the experiences I've had, I know now I'm about to go into some odd stuff, but like seeing the supernatural from a demonic, you know, experience of praying, and this is where you get into praying hedges of protect. Why are we praying about hedges? We should pray like steel cages, but you know what I mean. You're praying protection over people. You're you're praying that the kingdom of God would would advance. You're you're praying a violent battle in the spiritual realm. And when we anoint people with oil, we're praying for God to heal. Like we had recently we had a woman that was that was um, I know this is gonna sound crazy, but just hang with me. We had a woman who came up and said she was cursed by her mom, who was a witch, and she kept having these demonic dreams, and she asked um the elders to pray over her, and so the elders came. We anointed with her with oil, we prayed for those dreams to go away, and the next night, no more dreams. Now, listen, you could say that just was all psychosomatic. You could say like a whole bunch of um non-spiritual answers as to why the dream stopped. But it could be that God acted on our behalf, that there was some sort of spiritual battle, that there was some sort of thing going on. And this is the part that I can't fully explain, but you know, she was definitely already saved. She came to us asking for the protection of the church and the and the and the elders' prayer. We asked her to confess any sins that she had. She confessed some bitterness and anger, and she laid that the cross, and we prayed uh the power of Christ's blood over her. We power, uh we, you know, anointed her with oil and just asked God to protect and heal and forgive her and then cleanse her from all darkness. And I think God did that. Yeah. Anyway, I think that's the part that can be hard, is like how and this is just as a even as a pastor, I'm battling things I can't see. I'm I I with prayer that I'm using that sometimes feels like am I speaking into the air, I'm not seeing it like destroy the enemy, but I'm seeing it um I'm seeing the the the results, even though I don't see how it happened exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Anyway. So final um give it a read. Yeah, that's that's where you land is your assessment, final assessment is give it a read.
SPEAKER_00:It could draw readers closer to the can canonical Bible uh by illuminating its steps. How about that?
SPEAKER_01:Nice, yeah. I'm when when I read it in seminary, I was like, this is cool. And I don't think I've ever really looked back at it again, but now I'm like, yeah, kind of want to pick it up again.
SPEAKER_00:Like the okay, the the best and now now this is the part where be very careful when you go to the Facebook group, people make all sorts of assertions there. Yeah. Uh but it's fun, right? I'm like, wow, there are some people that have really gotten into the book of Enoch.
SPEAKER_01:Is it is it mainly about Nephilim and giant stuff? Yeah, absolutely. There's some there has been a renewed interest in that.
SPEAKER_00:Like well, and I think people have just seen too much, and they're looking for answers to the evil they've seen so clearly. And when you get kind of told by a materialistic world there's nothing to see here, and you're like, clearly there is. And so um, I think that's why there's probably been a huge advancement of charismatic movements because they're sort of engaging more in that realm. Um, not to say that that's the answer, but to say that is an answer. And I think that even as like Bible church type Christians, yeah, we need to be sort of like looking into the spiritual realm, understand that we're not just material beings, you know, like you know, sacks of fluid and bone, you know, we are spiritual beings that inhabit uh these bodies that are going to be eternal ultimately, and we need to start engaging the spiritual as much as we engage the physical. Wow. All right, good deal. Hey, if you got any questions about faith, culture, or everything or anything, everything in between. We talk about it all. Uh you can text us at 737-231-0605. We'd love to hear from you or go to pastorpleck.com. We would love to hear your heart and thoughts. So from our house, yours, have an awesome week of worship.