Pastor Plek's Podcast
Pastor Plek's Podcast
Mutual Submission, Marriage, And Leadership
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371: A throwaway line about “mutual submission” sparked a storm—and a much-needed deep dive. We open the Bible, sit with the tension, and then walk into the real-life mess of engagement, decision-making, and what loving leadership actually looks like when two strong people share a future. No formulas, no clichés, just a honest look at Ephesians 5 and how it plays out when feelings are high and stakes are higher.
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And welcome back to Pastor Plex Podcast. I'm your host, Pastor Plex, along with none other than Nicole SuperTrooper Troop. And welcome back to the show. Thank you. It's been a while. So we have a question that sparked a lot of conversation in and amongst the staff here. And it is this from a listener. And thank you for sending in. This is from a post from a guy named John Moody, not the question asker, but the uh influencer. He says, Hey, if brothers, if a woman uses the phrase mutual submission when talking about marriage, you're about to be in for a lifetime of sorrow and suffering. Run like your life depended on it because it does. Would enjoy both of you unpacking this thought and whether you agree or disagree and why.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'll just be straight up. I think that he's being really dramatic. All right, all right. So you don't think you're gonna die? No, I don't think you're gonna die. I don't think that just because a woman says that, that you're in for a life of suffering and regret. Um you might be in for suffering and regret anyway, but that might not be the problem.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. So let's get in. I think the text is really complicated. I think this is where it's important to know what text this guy is talking about. Uh so look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise, but as wise, making the best use of the time because the days are evil. This is Ephesians 5. Therefore, do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is, and do not get drunk with wine, for it is debauchery. But but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart. Give you thanks always and for everything to God the Father, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ the head of the church, its body, and is himself its savior. Now, as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or a wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies, he who loves his wife loves himself. No one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it just as the church Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is profound, and I'm saying that it refers to Christ in the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, let the wife see that she respects her husband. Okay. That's the backdrop of where this verse is coming from. Yeah. And usually why people say that uh submit to one another out of reverence for Christ, um, because that's where the word hopotasso comes. And then it says in the next verse, wives to your own husbands. It doesn't actually say the word submit isn't in there, it's just borrowing from the word.
SPEAKER_00:It's this idea, like hey, also.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. Uh, so how do you submit as a wife? You submit to your husband. How do you submit to your wife out of reverence for Christ? You lead her, but then that you don't submit to her. It's it's weird because you don't really submit to her, right? I I do think there is something to um a sense of looking out after her needs. Yeah. You can't have mutual submission in the sense where um where it's a husband and a wife because one inevitably is gonna be the leader. But if I think what this is saying is like he's going to the church, here's what the will of the Lord is. Hey, as a church, you guys need to submit to one another, men, and then now, hey, wives, submit to your husbands. And then he kind of explains what that looks like. And then husbands, love your wives. So I I don't think this is a mutual submission because mutual submission, it looks like this, which is really sweet. No, you go first. No, you go first, no, you go first, no, you go first.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and like, can we talk about the word submission also? Yeah, because that is unfortunately an ugly word. Why is it an ugly word? And um, I don't agree that it should be an ugly word. I think it's actually it's gotten a bad rap. It does, it has a bad rap.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Where how could where is it seen as a um New Age feminism, man?
SPEAKER_00:Like it's broken us down, like it just has screwed some things up. I don't know why people like it's like submission is equated to like subservience and like oppression, right? And they're not the same thing.
SPEAKER_02:So it doesn't say husbands oppress your wives.
SPEAKER_00:That's a different word.
SPEAKER_02:Husbands smash the woman down as crush her and that's not what it's rule her with an iron fist. Yeah, no, it says love her, sacrifice for her. As Christ loved the church. Right. And so I think what happens is I think we've we've we so far and I guess somewhere in the past, and listen, I we've done a good job maybe correcting, and then we overcorrected with with men like love loving their wives. Um, and so what's happened in our culture, like this is just just uh uh an observation. We have men abdicating their role as a protector, you know, like it used to be like a woman would find safety in the arms of her husband, like he would protect her, he would make sure they're gonna be okay financially, physically, and now it's like every man for himself. I think just culturally. So there's this the I guess the four P is protection, uh, there's pursuit. Like it's uh tough for men because if they pursue their wives uh intimately, it can be seen as like I don't want to say harassment, I don't go that far, but it can be like men have been so um passive, yeah, uh that they have kind of left the pursuit to their wife because hey, we're all equal here. Uh so you got protection, uh, you got pursuit, you got provision. And with the advent of the stay-at-home dad, uh, we have a lot of men saying, like, listen, I I I will just be at home with the children, and you go uh to work and you manage all of our financial situation, and I will be a kept man, so to speak, yeah, and take care of the children. And then and I and I feel like that's unhealthy in the sense I haven't seen it work out well for man.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like inevitably that a guy is gonna feel purposeless, uh-huh. Um, and then the woman ends up doing both things, taking care of the children and working really hard and providing, and the guy just is like just there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Uh and then um preside. Fourth P preside. Ooh, that's a fancy word. Rule over the family. Okay. Like, so what happens is when you don't rule over the family, someone does. Either it's the culture, uh, it could be the wife who then takes into a role of control and she treats her husband like another one of the children. And I think maybe over the past several years, we've sort of done a a weird thing, and maybe jokingly at first, but then ultimately I think it became a real thing. I gotta go ask the boss first. And so, what's that? You know, that's like the the boss being the wife. In fact, in in the military, um, we had a nickname for uh wives, and that was household six, which the six element in the army was the command element. And so that's who runs my house. I run at the job, but when we get down to home, she's in charge there. And I always was like that, sort of, and I know it was being funny, but then what happened, words matter, is that over time people started to believe that the woman was ahead of the home, and that brought struggle, I think, for our culture that has men genuinely going passive relationally with their wives anyway. I don't know. I know that's a lot to unpack right there. It is and I fire hosed you, but anything on all those thoughts that I just came out with?
SPEAKER_00:I do have some questions. Um, so I guess the first thing is is like so you said like the wife becoming the the boss, and I have to like go ask my boss. Right, yeah. So is is the ideal that the roles are flipped? Is the man now the boss and like suddenly the wife has to go and ask permission?
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, so the way that I would look at it is it depends, right? Yeah, there are some things that like as a husband, you could delegate the role of the authority over to your wife, which would be like so for example, there are different roles in a home, and and it doesn't matter necessarily who do them, what does who does them, who does them, but what does matter is that the authority of the husband is not, I don't want to say question, that's a but it he is the one that's supposed to be presiding over the family. So, you know, he might be a better cook, and so he's like, hey, I'm gonna make the food. Not because I don't think your cookie is awesome. Like, why put her in a role where she's not gifted, she's not great, and everyone suffers, right? Like that might be that's a but that's a decision that that husband would make ultimately. Now, I this is where if you love your wife, you're gonna hear her needs.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Like, and that's a part where I feel like what's happened culturally is women don't express needs because it makes them look weak. And when you look weak, then you just get run over. Yeah, as opposed to I express my needs, and then my husband, who is the fixer or loves to goes into solution mode and solves the problem. Um, but the problem is we're we're present. What usually happens with women, and I and I I know you'll be an exception to this, is what women start doing is they start telling their husbands what they need to be doing. And and that's usually a response because they're afraid of something. Um so like the women are afraid of them. The women are afraid, like, hey, I want my husband to be home with the kids. And so instead of saying, like, I need you home with the kids because I'm exhausted and frazzled by the end of the day, and I need you to take over and lead our family, instead of saying that, they say, You need to be home by four o'clock because I'm having dinner, or you need to get home by 5 30, or you need to because I have dinner out, and if you're not, it's gonna get cold, and like that's blah, blah, blah. And it's puts her in an authoritative role, which is not the design. And then so the guy's like, I don't want to create a fight, and I don't, and then it puts him in a position where it might be the wise thing for him to stay late at work for whatever reason. It might be, but then now he has to go answer to the boss as opposed to now. Granted, do men stink at telling their wives what time they're coming home? Absolutely. I'm not gonna. So that's why the height of communication has to happen. That's that's where it's like a husband can love his wife really well by sacrificially telling her, Hey, I will be home later this evening. I'm so sorry for that. But then she needs to be able to say, I have a need for companionship, I have a need for your presence, I have a need for your parenting. And and that's the type of conversation that needs to be having. And then that puts him in a place to fix the problem as the leader, as opposed to having his having his having his leadership cut off. Oh good job. Good words. Uh yeah. Uh does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that yeah, that does make sense. I I think uh like the challenge that I have.
SPEAKER_02:As you are engaged.
SPEAKER_00:I am, I am engaged. Congratulations, thank you. Um, for anyone who didn't already know that, uh Nicole's engaged. I'm engaged. That happened in August.
SPEAKER_02:It's Nick and Nicole. How fun is that?
SPEAKER_00:In Squared. Oh, N Squared. That's what people, some people have said. I think that let's go with that. Yeah, probably. Um so yes, we're engaged. Um, and so I am grappling already with feeling like a loss of independence, a loss of agency.
SPEAKER_02:And not and like you kind of have a more um stronger feminine approach.
SPEAKER_00:I do. I do. Man, what great words.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and and listen, I yeah, you know, um I can empathize with that.
SPEAKER_00:So it's well, also it's like it's hard for for me just because of my personality. Like you said, I'm a little bit stronger of a personality. Um, I'm 30, I've been single my whole life, I've never been in a serious relationship like this.
SPEAKER_02:Hold on. So, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is like newsflash. You mean you can get to 30 without a serious relationship in middle school, high school, college pro post-college, and now all of a sudden you're getting married and you've never been in a relationship.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Isn't that wild?
SPEAKER_02:That is amazing. I mean, I know that sounds like uh like I don't know how you feel about it, but I think it's great.
SPEAKER_00:For any teenage young adult girls out there who are maybe sad that they haven't had a boyfriend yet, it's okay.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, way to go.
SPEAKER_00:It's okay.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, now I will say, now I always tell this to every couple, so you're not the first couple I've told this to. Yeah. Um, however, the worst part of your life relationally is engagement because you kind of have all the responsibility of being married with none of the perks.
SPEAKER_00:So I've heard you say this before.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Prior to when I was engaged, and I was like, Chris doesn't know what he's talking about.
SPEAKER_02:I am the exception.
SPEAKER_00:And now and now I'm engaged, and I was like, Chris is right. Chris is right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I really gonna enjoy that moment.
SPEAKER_00:Which, if anyone knows me, my three least favorite words in the English language are Chris is right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, see, there you go.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I don't like that, but here we are, and I'm saying it live.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so let's get as an example issue you might find yourself is deciding on a wedding bench.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:So let's hypothetically go there. How might that be difficult?
SPEAKER_00:So my fiance, who I love very much, yeah, shout out to Nick if you're listening to this. I love you. Um, because he probably will. That's good. Uh but he cares a lot, um, which I did not expect. Yeah. Because I've been told my whole life that like your fiance won't care. He's just nowhere to stand. Yeah. Just tell him what to wear and when to show up, and he'll be there. And I'm like, okay, cool. And so I've gone my whole life thinking, like, he's not gonna care. I get to make all the decisions, and that in fact is not true. Not true at all. He cares and he wants to make decisions together. And uh, it's wonderful, it's awesome. We have different ways of approaching problems. Yeah, he's extremely analytical, he likes data, and so he wanted to analyze every wedding venue and compare them against each other.
SPEAKER_02:And okay, so not as a man, I I hear that and I go, what else would you do?
SPEAKER_00:I don't spend that much time.
SPEAKER_02:You just go, I feel this is the place.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, a little bit. I do, I mean, I I do like look at cost. Like cost is a really big factor. What's included in that cost? So, like, there's financial cost and there's like value.
SPEAKER_02:Basic cost benefit analysis.
SPEAKER_00:And so, yeah, so like, okay, this venue is a little more expensive than this venue, but it includes like twice as much as what this venue does. Right. So, like, this venue is more valuable. And then, you know, oh, how did I feel when I was there? And what was the view like? And can I envision myself walking down that aisle? So, you know, there's a whole lot of like emotion. There's a lot of emotion tied to this. There is, there's a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02:Does he have the same amount of emotion tied to it as he's looking at venues, or is it just like pure numbers?
SPEAKER_00:No, there's some emotion. Oh, okay. There's there's some emotion, but I think it's easier for him to let go of the emotion than it is for me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and I kind of have this vision of a wedding in my head.
SPEAKER_02:Tell me, let's just go to your head wedding for a moment.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, my head wedding, man. Okay. So it's in a really beautiful place.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Is it outside?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I would like to get married outside. Okay. I actually have opinions that I believe are grounded in scripture from the.
SPEAKER_02:I would love to hear this grounded scripture.
SPEAKER_00:Um, well, first of all, the first wedding, Adam and Eve, took place in the most beautiful place on earth. In a garden of Eden. Nice. The Garden of Eden. Where is what is up with this obsession with getting married in church buildings? Look, Jesus is real specific about who the church is, and it is not a building with four walls.
SPEAKER_02:Boom. All right. Wow.
SPEAKER_00:So, like, why are we stuck on getting married in a church? Like, not that that's not beautiful. Hey, listen.
SPEAKER_02:And if you're just everyone who just got married in church, including me, she just totally said your marriage doesn't count.
SPEAKER_00:So that's not what I meant. Don't twist my words, Christopher. Um, look, everyone gets to make their own choices and it's it's preference.
SPEAKER_02:It's not Garden of Eden. I'm down with the Garden of Eden.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Garden of Eden. So, like, I love and like I I have felt the most connected to God when I've been in nature, and there are like specific places where that's happened. And so I love the idea of getting married in the hills, surrounded by trees. Like, I want to get married outside, you know, hopefully in cooler weather.
SPEAKER_02:I'm not gonna make Are you going December wedding?
SPEAKER_00:Uh we don't really know yet. Okay. I mean late next year, sometime maybe.
SPEAKER_02:So are you so I I guess that gets into the price. Like, when are we gonna get married? Like, I love this venue, but I can only get it in this month or whatever. That's gonna be a part of it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're pretty flexible as far as dates go. We're looking at, you know, middle of the week, something like that. Middle of the week costs down, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You could do it Thanksgiving week and then you knock it out.
SPEAKER_00:My brother got married Thanksgiving week. See then it's like tradition already, you know? So um, but yeah, so I mean there are lots of options as far as dates, and I'm not tied to any one specific one, but um, I do want to get married in a beautiful place. Now there are some So can you tell me?
SPEAKER_02:I know are you allowed to share some of the places you've looked at?
SPEAKER_00:Sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:All right.
SPEAKER_00:Um, we looked at um High Point Estate up in Liberty Hill. It's one of yeah, Debbie Sass has done a lot of winter. Yeah, that place is beautiful.
SPEAKER_02:I love that place.
SPEAKER_00:Typically, their indoor chapel is gorgeous.
SPEAKER_02:Wait, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. Indoors. I know it's indoor, but it's they do have a pretty garden outside, though.
SPEAKER_00:They do, but the chapel like kind of beats that.
SPEAKER_02:Oh wow, you're US totally reverse course. Now, I'm not saying this might be frustrating for a potential husband. Um when you kind of get an idea, you I heard one thing, but then your first wedding venue you talk about, you say a completely different thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so he really wants to get married inside.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, and so is this the great compromise?
SPEAKER_00:And well, it's not on our list anymore, unfortunately. Sorry, um it's it didn't work out like pricing and stuff. Okay, got it. And it's like kind of far away. There are other venues that so that one's out.
SPEAKER_02:Liberty Village Gone.
SPEAKER_00:All right, but one of the ones that we're still considering is called Vintage Villas, and it's uh it's in Lago Vist.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, no, Lake Way, sorry. It's in Lake Way.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Oh, I think I've done 620. Yeah, I've done that one on the lake. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, it's beautiful and it's a hotel, and that is an outdoor ceremony.
SPEAKER_02:But shoot, no, I don't know that one.
SPEAKER_00:Beautiful gazebo.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:With this um, it's wisteria vine.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, fun.
SPEAKER_00:And so it's green most of the year.
SPEAKER_02:Is it a hotel like hotel or is it like a bed and breakfast hotel type?
SPEAKER_00:It's a it's a hotel.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, but they it's like styled as like villas, yeah. Three different villas. Oh fun. Um, so it can sleep a lot of people, um, and you can block off an entire villa if you want. Um, and then but it like looks out over Lake Travis.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, gorgeous.
SPEAKER_00:And the landscaping is beautiful. So it gives you the garden vibe. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Very much garden vibe. Um, there's a really pretty terrace that's well shaded for cocktail hour. Um, the event center where they do the reception is also really beautiful. Um, you know, kind of like at its bare bones, like it's already a really good thing.
SPEAKER_02:So when you went there, was there something in your heart that said, This is it? Yeah, kind of. And then Nick's response was I like it.
SPEAKER_00:Or actually, so this this particular place was his pick, and it has been his pick from the beginning. Um in other words, just let him choose. I that's kind of where I'm at. Cause like he has great taste. Okay. He really does. The the three three of the three of our top venues, I think, were all his his find. Like all three of them are once.
SPEAKER_02:You're you're making you're raising the standard on uh fiance everywhere to get this right. I mean, that's that's because I'll tell you how much involvement I had on picking the wedding venue. It's like next to zip. Um, I was just grateful to get married. Okay, so so he got he he have you guys, are you settled or are you still discussing?
SPEAKER_00:No, we're still discussing. So we've kind of we've kind of determined what like what our top things are, and then the next step is go to the parents.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, nice.
SPEAKER_00:So he wants to get his parents' opinion just like on the three different places to like see what they think. Um, and then we're also gonna go to my mom and be like, hey, this is what it costs, like how much would you be willing to I mean, because man, anytime you bring more people's opinions in, it gets really dangerous.
SPEAKER_02:But man, I love I love the roll of the dice.
SPEAKER_00:But I think I think uh in an effort to honor his parents and help them because they're also paying for his they're paying for his sister's wedding. She's getting married in Mexico in May. Um and so I think it helps him give a little helps him give them a little bit perspective of like, yeah, this is what weddings cost.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So that's that's sweet. Yeah, I I think it's a really, you know, a really good thing.
SPEAKER_02:Um so you guys and pretty much manage this pretty well. I mean, what what what where's the tension come? Is there any tension there?
SPEAKER_00:All right, good. Suddenly I'm not.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so is there any okay, so this is good. This this is the tension of being engaged. Yeah. What other areas did you sort of assume you had, I don't I don't know what the right word is, uh, that you would preside over that now you're running into the uh he has opinions. All of it. Really? Yeah. All of it.
SPEAKER_00:Except my dress. He's not said anything about that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, he's a very wise man. That's good. Other than that, looks great.
SPEAKER_00:Uh okay, so he has a lot of opinions. He does. He has a lot of opinions, and honestly, they're great opinions.
SPEAKER_02:Like so, so he has good taste. Yeah, it's just I think you're that's why one of the reasons why you're marrying him.
SPEAKER_00:Probably, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so okay, so for you, this is you're kind of running up against, I don't know, I'm gonna call it the flesh. Like, there's something in you that says, I I want to make some decisions here, and then he's kind of does it feel domineering initially? Or tell me what the initial vibe is. It's like you're so controlling.
SPEAKER_00:What's the yeah, it is definitely it is definitely that. Like I said, I'm feeling like a loss of agency.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, good.
SPEAKER_00:Like it almost it like it feels like for me, and I want to be really clear that in reality is not actually like this. This is just how I feel for those listening. This is just how I feel. This is not reality, but I feel like my desires don't matter.
SPEAKER_02:Interesting.
SPEAKER_00:Like I I was kind of spiraling on this the other day because I was like, he's just gonna make whatever choice he wants, and it's not gonna matter what I think or how I feel, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's not true. Right. That's not true. He has said that's not true. He's been very clear about like, hey, what you think really does matter to me. The fact that we sat down for four hours on Monday and went through all of these venues together means that he wants my he wants to hear my opinion, he wants to hear my thoughts.
SPEAKER_02:Like, he wants to know, like So this is really helpful because it might not be that he actually got the I have feelings that aren't true speech. Did he get that speech or did he just get a lot of feelings?
SPEAKER_00:No, I think he just got a lot of feelings. Okay, so also like this is this is now like three days of processing. Yeah, yeah. You've been processing. Like, I've been processing this for three days.
SPEAKER_02:How did he respond to you when you're like feelings, feelings, I have no agency.
SPEAKER_00:And then he responds with uh there was a very there have been several heated discussions where he's just like I don't understand why you're why are you angry?
SPEAKER_02:Ah, that's good. That's gonna be a that'll happen many a time in his marriage.
SPEAKER_00:Or you know, I think maybe he thinks I'm about to cry, and he's like, Why are you crying? And I'm like, I'm not crying. Um and I probably was, in fact, about to cry, but out of sheer spite, I'm gonna not cry now.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, nice. That is good.
SPEAKER_00:Which is just healthy and great, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:So there's a verse for this that might be helpful to Nick. 1 Peter 3:7. Likewise, husbands live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:There's two so that's in there. Uh there's a since and a so that. Since they're heirs with you, and you're like, oh yeah, they come alongside me, so that my my prayers may not be hindered if I don't live with my wife in an understanding way. So I think this is like the understanding way comes comes in the there's gonna be a more emotion, and honestly, that's a good thing. Like the emotions that a woman has are great, and not all women are wired this way. But I think sometimes women like to like to declare that they don't have emotion, and usually when they do that, that means they're super emotional, they just don't regulate it well.
SPEAKER_00:And well, probably also avoidant, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Avoidant, yeah. There we go. Yeah, not in touch whatsoever with your emotions, and so like they just comes over them in an eruption, and then it it's a lot of frustration. Now, on the flip side, men can become so dismissive, uh, you're overreacting. And so there is a there's a there's a middle ground here, but I think this is why men are called to lead. I think um when a man gives up his authority uh or as the head of the household and um is sort of saying, he's saying, I am now not responsible for you. It's now we're like, you know, oh, you made your own choice, you made your own bed, go lie in it. I think that happens a lot with relationships where we just sort of live our lives in the same home, but we're on our individual tracks. Whether whereas instead, if I'm responsible for you to love, nourish, cherish my wife in a way that's honoring of her, that where she has her needs met, her emotions are cared for, uh, and I'm ten I'm tending to her in a loving way, it blesses a wife to trust her husband more. And I think this is part of the process for you guys.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Because I like one of the really great things about him that is also simultaneously one of my biggest challenges is he is really good at pushing back. And I have never had that kind of relationship with any man ever.
SPEAKER_02:Like, what about your own dad? Your dad doesn't push back?
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_02:Do you just go, oh, this is the way it's gonna be?
SPEAKER_00:And he just like he he's just not even really emotionally available.
SPEAKER_02:So So the fact that Nick just doesn't dismiss you and also doesn't or he engages with you.
SPEAKER_00:He does, he does. Um the engaging is kind of rocky still because we're still figuring each other out and how to communicate and stuff like that. And I have a I do have a really hard time like communicating in the moment, like what I'm feeling. Like most of the time I'm just mad. And anger is a secondary emotion. There's something else down there's some wound down there. This and it takes me a couple of days to figure out what that second what that underlying thing is.
SPEAKER_02:Wow. So the whole I I'm losing my agency thing, yeah, were you able to articulate that to yourself then or is that something you processed?
SPEAKER_00:No, I I kind of uncovered that yesterday. What a so like I, you know, the I was like, wow, I think like I think what I'm feeling is a loss of agency. Like that's what this feels like. I feel like I have no choice. And like I said, like that's not actually true. Um and and it kind of dawned on me, I was like, that submission is is is is this like it's trusting the one you're submitting to that they have your good in mind and that their decision is in line with the Lord's will. Wow. Um and my my thoughts and my feelings and my opinions do matter. He's taken the time to hear me out, and he's taking all of that into consideration when he makes this decision, but ultimately, like he's making the decision for us.
SPEAKER_02:Does that make you feel ultimately the fact that you have a future husband? That cares about the stuff that you care about, that matters. That's a that's a one.
SPEAKER_00:And the fact that he's doing that now while we're engaged, that's a big honk in deal. Oh, yeah. Because it means that he's he's like setting, he's trying to set himself, set us up now for success later. Yeah. And like it's so true. Like you when you play a sports game, you whatever it is, you have weeks of practice before that.
SPEAKER_03:Nice.
SPEAKER_00:So you don't just like go into it without practicing. Fair enough. And if you're cra if you're crappy at practice, you're probably not gonna do well at the game.
SPEAKER_02:You speak truth, all right.
SPEAKER_00:I'm just saying, and like this is the same thing. Like dating and engagement are are well, dating is an evaluation, engagement is more evaluating, but also like mostly preparation for marriage.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So if you're not doing it in engagement, wow, do you think that marriage is gonna be any different?
SPEAKER_02:It's good, it's really good.
SPEAKER_00:Because it's not.
SPEAKER_02:Way to go.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:That that's that's a lot of processing you've done.
SPEAKER_00:It's a lot of processing. The past several days have been. Oh, yeah, all the time.
SPEAKER_02:So, like, and I think this is where guys, uh, we don't live in this world um for the most part. But it sounds like what I've learned from my wife is that she'll take something I said, she'll mull over three different ways, put a bunch of different motives behind it, and go, like, if you said if you meant it this way, it means this. If you meant it this way, it could mean this. And then I would just like, I want to go jump off a cliff if I did that much mulling it over. Uh, but so for you, as you're you're thinking about the conversation, are you turning it over and over and over and over again?
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:So is it true then, perhaps if a husband makes a decision the the that the wife is not totally on board with yet, that she'll probably turn it over a thousand more times and might get to like on her own without having to because sometimes men can grind where those say it again and again in three, five hundred different ways to make sure you get the point, as opposed to land the plane, trust that you're gonna think about it and walk away.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, just trust that we're gonna think about it because we are, whether you want us to or not.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. So you might as well. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00:So, and that's you know, I and part of what I do, especially when we have when we have a fight, or if he says something that kind of rubs me the wrong way, and I start to think things about him. Yeah. I ask myself, like, well, is that true of his character based on what I've seen? Um ninety-nine percent of the time the answer is no.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:99% of the time, what I think he meant, what I think he said, is not actually what he meant. It's not actually what he said.
SPEAKER_02:Um Do you ever remember wrong? Meaning like he said, I want to go to McDonald's, and you heard, I want to go to Wendy's. And like all of a sudden, you're now really upset about Wendy's because you were promised McDonald's, and then you get angry at him about whatever the thing was that you remembered wrong, and then he has to go like, I never said that. I think or do you nail it on on on with your memory?
SPEAKER_00:I think he would say that I do that. And I I probably do some of the time, but I don't think that's true all of the time.
SPEAKER_02:Because that might be the danger of mulling it over a whole bunch, because if you mole over the wrong thing or like you get a word wrong, or yeah, now you're thinking.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and like I need to go, I need to be better about going back to him and clarifying, like, hey, I think you said this. Is that what you actually meant?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, but doing that in a like in a neutral way is in a way of curiosity as opposed to a way of accusing that.
SPEAKER_00:That's difficult.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So, you know, there's that. Um, but yeah, and and so what I've learned is that wedding planning is sanctifying.
SPEAKER_02:Very sanctifying. Very all of marriage is actually sanctifying.
SPEAKER_00:I have heard that about marriage. Yes, yes. But it also happens when you're planning a wedding. It doesn't matter. I don't think it matters how much your wedding costs or how big it is or where you have it or whatever. Like the whole process, like God is gonna find find a way to use that to work out the sin in you, and it's gonna be painful.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I guess my only piece of advice, just for your own sanity, is pick a date soon. Yeah, otherwise, it could flow till forever, and you you're you're fine right now because you've only been engaged for how long?
SPEAKER_00:Like two months almost.
SPEAKER_02:So you're two months in. Month three hits are hits, and it's gonna feel like this is forever. And then when you don't have an actual date, and then it's like, oh, we need to push it back to January because you know everything's booked, like I would I would jump on that. So that's what I'm gonna do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think that's I think that's the plan. Um we wanna we we are both like pretty in line with like we want to get this checked off like pretty quickly. So because once we do that, all of the other dominoes start to kind of fall.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. That it's gonna make all of your life a lot easier. All right. I want to go shift back to like we what you said of like new wave feminism. Talk to me about like where like where does that term come from? Uh and and give me some of your thoughts on what it means.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't know if that is the like actual technical term for it, but when I think it's like third wave, isn't third wave? Third wave is is, I believe, what what happened in the like sixties and seventies. Right. Like that's my mom's generation.
SPEAKER_02:So we're talking about the new wave, fourth wave, perhaps.
SPEAKER_00:Seriously, yeah, maybe. Um so it's what's going on right now where like the the really big the really big thing that people like to put on t-shirts is like the future is female.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And that scares the crap out of me. Tell me why that is. Um, you're forgetting half the population.
SPEAKER_02:Fair enough, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Very important half of the population. And like we need strong, strong men. And I'm not I'm not just talking about like strong, right? It's like physically strong. I mean like like like spiritually strong, mentally strong providers who can who can build up and support a family, a household, a nation, right, whatever. Like the leaders that we have in this country right now are screwy. Um, male, female, whatever. They're all screwy. And the problem with that is that like the concept of fatherhood is like was like lost.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:You know, and so you kind of see it coming back.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Now for sure.
SPEAKER_02:I feel like like praise God. We're having like a revolution of men being like, all right, I'm done. Yeah. I I I'm not in fact, here's what's wild. This is going across like across the spectrum of Christianity. Young men are more active in church than young women by far. And we see it in our church clearly. There's way more young men than there are young women. Yeah. And that's because I think men have felt ostracized and defeated by the culture. And so they're gonna go the one place that says, hey, not only do we accept you, we're calling you to lead and be great and be strong. Um, I think you're right. I think the the new wave feminine feminism, or it is fourth wave feminism, came around in 2016 with really the Me Too movement, was like really the Yeah. And and then their intersectionality were like gender and race, and here's where I'm doubly disadvantaged, and we're gonna take over. Um and I think it's it's kind of got that's where you know toxic masculinity got at its height of like we are gonna fight back against the evils of men and patriarchy and all that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, and I will like I will say there is such a thing as like toxic masculinity or whatever. That's a buzzword now, but but there are like cultural concepts for that, um, where but but it's usually where like cult like culture, and I I don't mean like big C culture, I mean like small C culture within certain populations where like male aggression and male violence has been normalized.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And like that's not what we want.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, we there's a whole t-shirt called a wife beater. Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like it's that. And and like that's not what the Bible teaches. Right. That's not that's not anything like what I've seen. The men in our church are some of the like like in a sense like softest men that I've seen, but not in like a when you go soft, you can be like bambi pambi, but like when you see them interact with their wives or you see them interact with their daughters, like there is a softness, a gentleness, yes, to them. Um, but like, you know, when they interact with their sons, like there's still a gentleness, but it's different. And the fact that you can like differentiate that based on what your child needs, what your wife needs, what your friends need, you know, like I'm not gonna be tough love with every friend that I have, right? But with some of them, I'm gonna be like, get your crap together, you're better than this.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Um and I see a lot of the men in our church being that way with kids and stuff. And so that's really encouraging. And to know that those are the men that are pouring into my fiance is also really encouraging.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's sweet. So I think that just the I think what's happened since 2016, really, whether that's the new wave or an extension of the third wave, I think I think what's happened is just an accelerant on the future is female, as opposed to this push for equality, it's a push for matriarchy. And what ends up happening is things break down real fast because men then sort of step out and become ultra passive when a woman is the head, and that becomes a broken space, whereas they become very engaged, even to the point where your fiance where they care about stuff. And I think in a in a space where women have been sort of like, This is my world, and I'm gonna do as I please, and you need to sit over there and be in the corner for having a man engage is actually a wonderful, beautiful thing. But everyone's gonna engage it differently. Like I still think there could men could delegate in a sense like, hey, whatever you want, I want to just support you in making your dream wedding come true, and you know, whatever the cost, you know, you know, you know, like hey, great. Um, but I do think there is that the transition of like men need to kind of set the tone for the home of like what what does discipline look like? What does love look like? What does spiritual life look like? What is all those different aspects that fall on the on the man's responsibility before God to really lead his family through that? Yeah, and that can be really hard, especially if you don't have a um a family background that was that. And so it can feel a little bit like the blind leading the blind a little bit, or maybe the the husband following her wife's lead who did have something like that. Yeah, and now all of a sudden he feels like, oh, I don't know enough to make a decision, whatever you want to do. And I think there comes a part where um people who don't know have have uh the onus, men who don't know, to to lead. And you're allowed to ask your wife, but then form an opinion and a conviction based on the word of God to then lead your family.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I I'm studying to be a counselor. Yeah. And so learning about human growth and development and all of that stuff and different forms of discipline and stuff. I also have a lot of experience working with kids. Yeah. Um, and and Nick doesn't, and he's acknowledged that. And but like when it comes to raising kids, I like what you're saying. Like, I can give him information. And it's the same thing that I would do with the parents of a of a minor client. Like, I can give you all of this information so that you then can make an informed decision. But like you are ultimately this child's parents, and like I'm going to respect your decision. Now, if it's abusive, that's different.
SPEAKER_02:But call the cops.
SPEAKER_00:Right. That's that's a different story. You know, we're not gonna tolerate that. Um but but like ultimately I have to trust that these these parents know their own child better than I do. Um they made this child together. In some cases, they've adopted them, they know their history way better than I do. They have a more intimate knowledge of that child. And so I have to trust that they're doing the right thing, even though I even with giving them all this knowledge. And so it's the same thing in I think in this husband-wife relationship, where like, okay, I'm you're almost basically a trad wife now. Woo!
SPEAKER_02:I love it.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, like this is you know, I I between the two of us, I'm the expert on children, right? But like ultimately, like he makes we do the I mean, this is not only just in marriages.
SPEAKER_02:We do this all the time. Like, no boss has all the information. You take the information from a subordinate unit, like when the army, and be like, hey, a scout said something on the ground, I'm gonna based on his information, I still have to make the decision. He can make a recommendation, but I make a decision. Um and I and I think what you're talking about is the same sort of deal where what the hard part for a woman who probably knows in her knows what's best, and then her husband makes a wrong call, she still has to kind of execute, and that's hard.
SPEAKER_00:So, yes, Leah Brown said something a while ago that I thought was really wise.
SPEAKER_02:Leah is a very wise woman.
SPEAKER_00:Leah is one of the wisest people that I know. Um, she's also a very strong personality, she's a very strong personality, but she does give space for her husband to lead their family.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And one of those things.
SPEAKER_02:We have a lot of strong personalities at our church.
SPEAKER_00:One of the things that she said is they were trying to make a decision about something, and she had given him his her opinion or thoughts or whatever. And she was like, but ultimately he's gonna be the one that has to stand before the Lord and account for his leadership in our family. Nice. And I was like, Man, you're right. Like, like, because he's the leader, he will be held accountable for his leadership. And so if he makes the wrong decision, it's not on me, it's not on our kids, it's on him. Yeah, and that is that's the burden of leadership. Um, and that I look, that's scary. Like, if I'm being really honest, I don't want that for myself. Like, I don't envy that burden, and so I'm really grateful that I'm marrying someone who has already stepped into that role. Hey, way to go.
SPEAKER_02:Like, like I said, it's it's a super challenge, engagement's hard. I recommend short ones. Uh, but even if you go long, it way to go. It's it's it's it's it's an arduous task, put a date out there and and then kind of set your goal, set as sights on the goal to make decisions together ultimately. Hey, listen, if you've got any questions, you can text us at 737-231-0605. We would love to hear from you. Uh, one of our favorite things is to answer your questions about faith, culture, everything in between. Any other thoughts there, Nicole, on state of feminism?
SPEAKER_00:You know, just really grateful I got to talk to you about this.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's super fun. Hey, we'll see you next time. Go ahead, push back some darkness, and have an awesome week of worship.